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Cuomo Prime Time
Trump, Biden Appear In Dueling Town Halls After Nixed Debate; President Trump On Whether He Was Tested For COVID-19 Before The First Presidential Debate; Democratic Presidential Candidate Joe Biden On Court-Packing. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 15, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: And he wasn't willing or able to come up with a negative COVID test, so the debate was delayed.
We thought that was going to be the end of it, hardly. And what we are seeing in real time tonight really may be the most stark contrast I've ever seen between two candidates.
So, Trump finagled himself a counterprogramming slot on a competing network to Biden's Town Hall tonight. Biden would be on ABC. He was on NBC. That caused a lot of controversy.
But now that I got to see it, I have to tell you, in a way, this may have been better for you. There is no question that seeing two candidates together is better, as a basis of comparison, than having to make choices about which one to watch in isolation.
However, if you watched any of the President, it is so, incredibly concentrated, as a version of bad answers, on major points of division. You can't fail to see that this man is trying to divide this country on as many fault lines as he can.
So, I'm going to bring in the top-tier political and health brains to size up what was going on in this mother lode of material that we have for you tonight.
Now, Trump did not go to State TV to do this, and that was his mistake. He went to NBC, his former "Apprentice" home. And he actually got asked some important questions. And yes, he's good at slapping them to the side.
But even being evasive, what he chooses to be evasive on, what he chooses to try to sell you he doesn't know, so he can't answer, is so obvious in its deception and in its malignant intent.
For instance, when was his last negative COVID test? Was he tested, the day of the first Presidential debate? "Probably, I don't know, I don't remember," he says.
And you want to paint Biden as demented? You can't remember your last negative test? You can't remember if you took a test at the debate? Really? And you're competent to be President? Are you sure you're better from COVID?
A million different non-answers, and no, not in the ordinary politician way. There is no savvy. There is no spin. It's just grotesque denial and deception.
Again, I don't see any winners in dueling Town Halls tonight. OK? You were supposed to see the candidates together, all right? And, in that way, the voters are the biggest losers, 19 days out, for us to toggle between channels.
So, what we did is we watched them both at the same time, to figure out where we can kind of match up answers for you, at least in terms of the material for our panelists, so you'll get that basis of comparison at least, OK?
But what's happening tonight, be very clear is a metaphor for where we are. We are on different channels.
We are a country that is divided in a way that not only do we believe the other side is wrong, but we are deaf to them, literally tonight, and figuratively almost every day. You literally can't hear the other side. And it's a mistake.
Trump's Town Hall is over. Biden's Town Hall is still underway. So, let's get to the highlights, lowlights, of Trump's event. Let's start with Jim Acosta.
Jim, the President, I would say - I don't want to give him the credit of adding to the confusion, but he exposed the delusion of ignorance over his contraction of COVID. Set up the circumstance for us, and what stands out to you?
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Chris. I mean I think this was a night where the voters were cheated.
They could have been watching a Presidential debate. Instead, they got two different Town Halls, as you just laid out perfectly, a few moments ago. And I think the President was essentially a busted fire hydrant of evasions and falsehoods.
On the issue of when his last negative COVID test was, he simply refused to answer the question. It's obviously a question that's pretty simple to answer. But he just didn't want to answer it.
And one of the reasons why people want an answer to this question is obviously it's still hanging out there, did the President not take a Coronavirus test on the night of that Presidential debate with Joe Biden? President Trump just would not answer that question. And here's how that played out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, NBC NEWS HOST: Did you test --
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think it was afterwards. GUTHRIE: -- the day of the debate?
TRUMP: I don't know. I don't even remember. I test all the time.
GUTHRIE: So, you say you don't know if you got a test on the day of the debate?
TRUMP: I had no problem. Again, the doctors do it. I don't ask them. I test all the time. And they --
GUTHRIE: Did you take a test, though, on the day of the debate?
TRUMP: You know if you ask the doctor, they'll give you a perfect answer.
GUTHRIE: Yes.
TRUMP: But they take a test, and I leave, and I go about my business.
GUTHRIE: So, did you take a test on the day of the debate, I guess, is the bottom line.
TRUMP: I probably did. And I took a test the day before and the day before. And I was always in great shape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTA: So not only, Chris, did he not answer that question, he did not answer specific questions about Roe versus Wade, healthcare, his taxes and so on.
[21:05:00]
And so, in many ways, this was a missed opportunity for the voters all night long because they really didn't hear the President get pinned down on much of anything, even though the Host, Savannah Guthrie, tried mightily.
And on the issue of QAnon, I mean I think that's a huge case in point, Chris, throwing it back to you. He simply just did not want to deal with that question.
CUOMO: Well, look, let's take it apart a little bit.
One, if, he had good information about negative tests, he'd offer it. The privacy ruse is exposed by the fact that they only give convenient information. If something is private, you don't give any information.
So, they give us when he was positive. They give us now that he's negative because you need to hear that. But they won't give you the other information because it's not good for them. Any other conclusion is irrational in the absence of any other proof, one.
Two, mistake a lot of us make, when you're interviewing Trump, you can't move on. You have to stay frustratingly, uncomfortably, on one topic. I've seen you do this, in press conferences. It makes you controversial.
ACOSTA: That's right, yes. Don't I know it?
CUOMO: But you cannot let it go --
ACOSTA: Yes.
CUOMO: -- when he is saying something that's not true. You have to stay right there.
Like with the bin Laden stuff, "You say you don't know QAnon. You have to. Because we all know that you were told and you retweeted it today by your people what you had done and why you had done it and what it would mean. And you have to know what it is because you're the President of the United States, and you get talked to about this all the time. You can't be that dumb."
So you think it's OK? I don't know. I don't know what they're good with.
ACOSTA: Right.
CUOMO: "Are you OK with the idea that Osama bin Laden wasn't killed? Are you OK with that?" He would probably say one of two things.
"No, I believe he was killed." Well, then why did you retweet it? Problem for him. Two, "I don't know," which, as we both know, he may well say, "I don't know. I don't know what I can trust."
Either way, staying on it, as uncomfortable as it is - and we've both been in those situations. You got the Control Room in your ear, telling you to move on, you got other people, it's about the people, it's not about you, you can't do that with Trump.
All respect to Savannah Guthrie and her success, it's not about her. We all make the same mistake. With this particular political animal, you can't move on.
Now, third --
ACOSTA: That's right.
CUOMO: -- he always says he doesn't know about something, Jim, when he doesn't want to talk about it.
With White supremacy, "Which group? Which group? Which one do you want me to talk about? Proud Boys? Oh yes, I don't really know them." "David Duke." "David Duke? Who? I don't know him. I don't know the guy."
I don't know where you grew up. But that was a very common device in Queens, where we grew up.
"Where were you the other night? Were you with Louis when Lou?" "Lou? I don't know a Louis. I don't know," you know, it's like I heard that on the street corner, like 100 times when somebody was riding someone else's bicycle.
He has to know who QAnon is.
ACOSTA: Yes.
CUOMO: So, what did that situation speak to, to you? Why would he feign ignorance of an obvious?
ACOSTA: And Chris, I think that might be the headline of the night. I mean, obviously, the President knows what QAnon is.
There are QAnon supporters who go to his rallies all the time. I go to his rallies, and we see the QAnon supporters, who are there. They put out those catchphrases, to one another, as they're walking into these rally venues, and so on.
And so, when Savannah Guthrie tried to press the President, on QAnon, and would he disavow it, she gave him multiple opportunities. He had chance after chance after chance to do it, to denounce QAnon, and he simply did not do it, and here's how that played out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUTHRIE: Let me ask you about QAnon. It is this theory that Democrats are a satanic pedophile ring and that you are the savior of that. Now, can you just once and for all state that that is completely not true --
TRUMP: So, I know you --
GUTHRIE: -- and disavow QAnon --
TRUMP: Yes.
GUTHRIE: -- in its entirety?
TRUMP: I know nothing about QAnon.
GUTHRIE: I just told you.
TRUMP: I know very little - you told me, but what you tell me doesn't necessarily make it fact. I hate to say that. I know nothing about it. I do know they are very much against pedophilia. They fight it very hard. But I know nothing about it.
GUTHRIE: They believe it is a satanic cult --
TRUMP: If you'd like me to study --
GUTHRIE: -- run by the Deep State.
TRUMP: -- let me just study.
What I do hear about it is they are very strongly against pedophilia. And I agree with that. I mean I do agree with that.
GUTHRIE: OK.
TRUMP: And I agree with it very strongly.
GUTHRIE: But they're not a satanic pedophile cult run by --
TRUMP: I have no idea. I know nothing about that.
GUTHRIE: You don't know that? OK.
TRUMP: No, I don't know that. And neither --
GUTHRIE: You just this week --
TRUMP: -- and neither do you know that.
GUTHRIE: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: So, the President says he doesn't know anything about QAnon, and then he says well, he thinks it's about pedophilia. It can't be both of those things, Chris.
And finally, you were talking about this retweet that he put out there earlier, over the last 24 hours, lending credence to this crazy conspiracy theory that Osama bin Laden is still alive. When you're President of the United States, you simply don't do that. You don't retweet crazy conspiracy theory tweets.
And so, it's sort of - I think that encapsulated the night for me, Chris, because it felt like tonight was one hour of four years of the Trump presidency. Lies, conspiracies, and nonsense.
[21:10:00]
CUOMO: That's a good title for a Special. Jim Acosta, thank you very much. Appreciate the reporting.
Let's bring in the big brains, the Chief Doctor, Sanjay Gupta, Dana Bash, David Chalian, and Michael Smerconish. It's good to have you all. Thank you very much.
Important night, Dana. Look, we all know, again, the device of "I don't know anything about it but." First of all, he's dead wrong about QAnon being against pedophilia. What they're against is Catholics. And they have decided that pedophilia is a cabal run by the Democrats. So, they have zero virtue factor.
How likely is it, Dana, that he is completely ignorant to what he was discussing?
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know this, Chris, because you've interviewed him, as have I. It's been a while, but we both have.
And the great thing about interviewing Donald Trump is that he answers the questions. And when he doesn't answer the questions, it's because he doesn't want to answer the questions. And that's where "I don't know" comes from.
I mean, of course, he knows. Of course he knows what QAnon is. And the fact that he knew enough to say it was about pedophilia but, as you say, got it completely wrong, that they're not against pedophilia.
They create conspiracies that pretend that people who are in power, who don't necessarily like the President, are part of pedophilia rings. I mean, and it goes on and on and on from there. So yes, he knows. Yes, he is familiar with it. Yes, he retweets QAnon-related conspiracy ideas.
And the fact that Savannah wouldn't let it go, you know what good for her, because he rarely gets, as you mentioned earlier, tough questions other than - he doesn't really do interviews other than, what you called, State TV.
CUOMO: Yes, and look, again, we've been in this situation, both of us, many times. You want to move on. You want to spread the ball. You want to get in the people - you can't do it with Trump because you'll wind up allowing him to end on a deception.
Sanjay, Chris Wallace said the plane showed up late to the debate, so there wasn't time for a test, so it was on the honor system. The President said, "Well, look, I didn't have to wear a mask tonight because we both took tests."
They won't confirm that he had a negative test the day of the debate. They say, "Well, privacy." Does that make any sense to you when they have given us other test results that are advantageous to the President for people to know?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: No, it doesn't make sense. And there's a couple points.
One is, first of all, it is a knowable answer. I mean, it is known. It's not like, "Well, we have to go check records." It's very clearly documented somewhere when the President last had a negative test.
But I think the more salient point, Chris, that you're making is that this is a contagious virus. I mean, it's a very contagious virus. So, the reason you get tested, obviously, you want the person to know, so they can isolate themselves, so they don't spread it to other people. And that's why that testing system was in place.
And I will say, you know, I really reviewed the Cleveland Clinic protocol. It was pretty porous. I mean, it was an honor system. You could take whatever kind of test you wanted. It could be a PCR test or it could be an antigen test, any sort of authorized test. Some of them have pretty high false negative rates, as you know.
And you just had to basically say you had it. I mean there was no, you know, they didn't go back and specifically ask for the documentation. So, it really was truly an honor system. And today, he basically still is not answering the question. We don't
know that he was negative for certain at that debate. It sounds like he says he was, but he didn't really still answer that question.
CUOMO: David, did Trump win tonight, just by having us talking about him, right now, and not talking about Biden? Or is the fact that we're talking to him, in an exposing way, about such deficiencies make it a net-negative?
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Listen, I think tonight was a really missed opportunity for the President, Chris. Tell me - describe to me who was the voter he added? He's the candidate behind in this race.
Who was the voter he added tonight, when the headline is QAnon, once again, all over the map on that, not discrediting it entirely, this notion that he can just retweet things that have no basis in fact, to give conversation out there, to the people, that they should be able to talk about it?
He's the President of the United States. He's behind in this race. And there is - there are very few opportunities left with this kind of tune-in factor, for him, to actually add to his coalition now. I mean, we're past the 10 percent mark of people having already cast ballots.
Each day is such - is such an important time frame for him right now. This was a golden platform for him, and I just think he threw it away because he did not take "The issue," Coronavirus, head on, and try to assuage the American people or paint a better path forward. He didn't do that. No.
[21:15:00]
He was traveling around in conspiracy theory land. And, to me, when that's the headline emerging from this, I don't know why he spent the time doing the Town Hall.
CUOMO: I got a question for Michael.
But, just to remind you guys, this is CUOMO PRIME TIME. I'm all about crosstalk. You never have to wait for a question here. You want to say something, say it. I love the free-for-all in terms of an exchange of ideas. I love when people - that's what makes you guys so great is your ability to build off one another.
Michael, the bin Laden thing, at a minimum, means the President is OK leaving it up to you to decide whether or not we killed bin Laden, even though he is the Commander-in-Chief. That's the best-case scenario by his own reckoning. Who does that get to go out to the polls for him tonight?
MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST, "SMERCONISH": Can I dodge your question, and respond to David Chalian instead?
CUOMO: Yes.
SMERCONISH: So, I understand what David said, and logically --
CUOMO: See, all you have to do is ask. That's the genius.
SMERCONISH: -- logically, you would think it's a night where he's seeking to do some addition. But that's never been the way that he's governed, and it's never been the way that he's run this campaign.
It's not about addition in their mind. It's about motivation. And so, much of that which gets criticized here that he said, oddly, I think, to the President's way of thinking, is motivating. I don't know what the reaction will be.
But my hunch is, in Trumpland, the reaction will be the dichotomy between the type of questioning that the President faced from Savannah Guthrie, and the sort of questioning that Joe Biden - Vice President Biden, was facing from George Stephanopoulos.
Like everybody else, I've been sitting here with a clicker tonight, going back and forth. And I'll give you a concrete example. It's --
CHALIAN: But Michael, then why not do it on Fox?
SMERCONISH: -- it's the elephant in the room. So let me just address it.
CUOMO: Answer his question. Wait, hold on a second.
SMERCONISH: I don't think --
CUOMO: Well hold on. Michael? Michael?
SMERCONISH: I don't think --
CUOMO: Michael?
SMERCONISH: I don't think that Joe Biden - I don't think that Joe Biden is benefited from not being questioned about that "New York Post" story and Facebook and Twitter. He's prepared to deal with it. But when it's not raised, all that does is fuel Trumpland saying "Look at that."
CUOMO: All right.
SMERCONISH: "They won't even ask him that question."
CUOMO: But Michael, Michael, two things. One, you got to make sure that you know the reporting before you hit somebody with it because if you're wrong on your premise, that's bad journalism.
Two, David made a good point. If your theory is correct, then he should have done it with Fox. So David, why would that be the smarter place, based on Michael's own assertion about what --
CHALIAN: Well listen I --
BASH: Well -- CUOMO: -- balance would be.
CHALIAN: Michael has the right theory of the case for how Donald Trump wins this election still.
CUOMO: Yes.
CHALIAN: Which is - there's no doubt. That is his path, is finding more Trump-minded, specifically White non-college-educated folks who didn't show up in 2016.
SMERCONISH: Right.
CHALIAN: Who didn't show up in 2018, and turn them out. But they're not watching - I mean they might be watching the President. But going on NBC is a moment for him. You do that if you're in the business of addition. I agree with Michael.
BASH: And --
CHALIAN: That has not been the governing mission, at all, for 3.5 years of Donald Trump.
BASH: And --
CHALIAN: And, by the way, I think it's why he's behind in this race. Sorry, Dana, go ahead.
BASH: No, no, no, no, and I agree.
Look, I was in Michael's home state of Pennsylvania, the other side of the state in Southwest PA, talking to people, and those voters do exist. The voters that didn't - that like Donald Trump, didn't vote before, and will go out and vote for him again. It's an open question about whether there is enough of them.
But I want to add a data point that flies in the face of this whole idea that he's continuing to only speak to his base. Now, I know obviously, with him not denouncing QAnon, it's hard to make an argument otherwise. But he didn't answer the question about whether he wants to overturn Roe v. Wade.
I mean, that, for a Donald Trump, looking only at his base should have been a slam dunk. But this is a Donald Trump, looking at a chasm, between himself and Joe Biden with female voters right now, as people are voting.
And the fact that he didn't want to go there is very telling about where he sees things, not just with the people, who've already voted, but the internal polling that he's seeing.
CUOMO: To Dana's point, he also said tonight, several times, we should be on the same side, especially around healthcare. That's new talk for him. And he still bashed Pelosi and the deal-making.
By the way, we're going to take a break. We're going to come back and talk about what Biden was saying. I think - I think not getting a deal, for Democrats right now, even a partial one, is something we've got to talk about.
What Michael brought up, about, what Biden should be answering for, we also have to talk about, especially about court-packing. I don't know why people are saying that that's a distraction. It's a distraction because they won't answer it.
But to Dana's point, he said we should be on the same side. He wouldn't answer about Roe v. Wade. And he said "I promise we'll always protect their pre-existing conditions" even though --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: -- they're in court right now trying to end the pre-existing conditions. But good point, Dana, as always.
Let's take a quick break. Let's come back and talk Biden. Michael, I'll start with you. Sanjay, I'll get you in there in terms of points of contrast, on COVID, because both guys really quiet on better plans, for the next six months, and we got to talk about that, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Trump is done. Joe Biden's Town Hall is still going. And he too is making headlines, and giving some answers that will demand our scrutiny.
Let's go to Arlette Saenz in Philadelphia. Arlette?
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well Chris, Joe Biden is still in his 90-minute Town Hall that has really been heavily policy- focused. Biden has received some pointed questions about past statements and also support for past policies.
But one of the most noteworthy moments came tonight when Biden offered his clearest answer yet when it came to the issue of court-packing. That is a question that he has deflected for weeks.
Take a listen to what he had to say tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOE BIDEN (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I'm not a fan. I didn't say - it depends on how this turns out.
I'm open to considering what happens from that point on.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, CHIEF ANCHOR, ABC NEWS: You know, you said so many times, during the campaign, all through the course of your career, it's important to level with the American people.
[21:25:00]
BIDEN: It is. But George, if I - if I say - no matter what answer I gave you, if I say it, that's the headline tomorrow. It won't be about what's going on now, the improper way, they're proceeding.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But don't voters have a right to know where you stand?
BIDEN: They do have a right to know where I stand. They'll have a right to know where I stand before they vote.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So you'll come out with a clear position before Election Day?
BIDEN: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAENZ: Now, that's a bit of a shift. Biden had previously said that voters would know his position the day after the election. So, a bit of news that he made there.
Biden also, again trying to present that contrast with the President on his handling of the Coronavirus - Coronavirus pandemic.
And when he was asked about a vaccine, asked whether there should be consideration about making a vaccine mandatory, he said that that is something that should be talked about, but acknowledged that it would be very difficult to enforce, saying that a lot of these things have to happen through the state level.
Now, Biden was also asked about his previous work and support of that 1994 Crime Bill.
And during a discussion about the many people after these Crime Bills, from the 1980s, 1990s, many people being jailed for minor drug offenses, Biden was asked if that was a mistake. He said "Yes." His campaign is saying that he was referring to the 1986 Crime Bill, not the 1994 Crime Bill. So, that's something that will need to be sorted out.
But this is a very heavily policy-focused Town Hall. Biden didn't really spend that much time going after President Trump directly. Instead, he is laying out what his agenda is, really offering this contrast without the President even being on that stage. Chris?
CUOMO: Arlette, thank you very much. No question, Joe Biden says things where he makes mistakes at a minimum. The good news for him is they're getting called out by a complete gaffe machine in our current president, President Trump.
Let's bring back the panel here.
Now, Michael, we have unfinished business, in terms of whether or not what Trump was doing tonight makes sense in terms of strategy, let alone value to people. But let's spend a little love time on Biden here, and what he did.
Dana, help me understand this. I come to you often, for advice about how to be my best self. I don't get the criticism that I am asking a distraction question when I push the Democrats on court-packing. Their whole pitch is that they will be more straight than Trump is.
That answer that he just gave, I don't even understand. "I don't know. I'm not in favor of it. I got to see what happens here. The people deserve to know my position, and I'll let them know before the election."
BASH: It's --
CUOMO: Why not just say yes or no?
BASH: It's not - it's not a distraction question.
It's a real question, based on a real movement, inside the Democratic Party, to change the number of seats, to expand the number of seats, on the Supreme Court, in order to get more Democratically like-minded judges, if you will, or a Democratic President to appoint more judges. I mean, that is a fact. That is out there. The former Vice President knows that.
He's trying to avoid answering that because if he says "Yes, I'm for it," it will really make people, who are kind of inclined to traditionally vote for Republicans, but don't like Donald Trump, maybe think twice about Biden, if he says - or if he says "No," that he's going to piss off the progressives and the opposite of what I just said about independents.
But the thing is, is that when he says "I'm going to wait until, you know, before Election Day," as David Chalian reminds us every day, Election Day is right now, in many, many states.
CUOMO: Yes.
BASH: Millions of people have voted. So, that's not going to cut it with them.
CUOMO: That answer is "Trumpery" by definition. That has nothing to do with Trump's name. Look it up. It's a real word.
Michael, but isn't this an example of why Trump screwed up and should have been on the stage with Biden? Because imagine how you expose --
SMERCONISH: Well no doubt.
CUOMO: -- that kind of answer.
SMERCONISH: No doubt. It would have been in the President's best interest, and the country's best interest, to see them together. The idea that America is clicking back and forth tonight, I think, is sad.
Look, that answer from the Vice President is illogical because it could apply, that standard could apply to any hot-button issue.
CUOMO: Yes.
SMERCONISH: "Oh, if I answer you, that's going to become the issue." Well, that's the nature of public service.
But the bigger point is this. It's all in keeping with the Hippocratic Oath nature of the Vice President's campaign. They're comfortably ahead, and all they want to do is no harm from now until the election.
I knew the minute that Trump turned down the virtual debate opportunity that the Vice President would fill his dance card, and not be on the same stage with him, because they want to limit any exposure they have, and just ride this out.
CUOMO: How big a deal, David, is the Hamina-Hamina-Hamina on court- packing headline-for-headline versus "Yes, I want you guys to decide," the President says, whether or not we killed Obama (ph) whether or not the SEAL team guys are heroes or shills.
[21:30:00]
CHALIAN: Right. As you said, it's not sort of an equal wig kind of a thing here. But I just - it is befuddling to me how much time Joe Biden has spent on saying he doesn't want to talk about court-packing.
SMERCONISH: Right.
CHALIAN: It's just an inordinate amount of time that could be spent elsewhere. Politically, I'm not even sure that he would take on so much damage from the Left-wing of his Party, if he came out against this plan that would be somehow so damaging.
I mean one of the big stories of 2020, Chris, is that the real divisions that exist inside the Democratic Party, which we saw play out, in the sort of halted Democratic nomination race that sort of wound down very quickly, back in March, they're real.
There are real divisions inside the Party. And there's no doubt that there is real power in the Left-wing. But they've - they have papered over all of that because of the antipathy towards Trump. The entire Party is so focused on the mission of getting rid of Trump --
CUOMO: You think so?
CHALIAN: -- that Joe Biden saying he's not a fan of court-packing, in the past he said, "Democrats would rue the day," he's clearly signaling where he is on this. And I just don't know if the calculation is right that he would take on so much heat from the Left to really cause himself a political problem.
BASH: I think you're probably right, David.
The thing that I'm hearing from people, around Joe Biden, as I'm sure you are is, that he just don't want to risk it, especially right now. They don't want to risk it. They feel that they've got the wind at their back. They're doing well and why say something that is going to --
CUOMO: But it makes him sound like Trump. It makes him sound like everything we hate about politicians. You're not answering a question --
BASH: He is a politician.
CUOMO: -- that you clearly have an answer to.
BASH: He is a politician.
CHALIAN: It is an inauthentic moment. There's no doubt about it.
CUOMO: Where you're supposed to be better.
CHALIAN: For a guy who sells himself as Mr. Authenticity.
CUOMO: Yes, you're supposed to be better. Now, Sanjay, something else neither guy had a good answer for tonight.
How are we going to do things better in the next block of time? Harder for Trump, because he's this - on this double-down strategy that the pandemic's not a big deal, but Biden doesn't pop off with answers either, about what to do.
And the only thing that really becomes a button is something that's more definite to discuss, like vaccines. And he says "I don't know that you can enforce a forced vaccine. It's a state issue."
Let me play that sound, because a lot of people, watching tonight, their main concern in their life, is the pandemic and what it means to them. So, listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHANOPOULOS: If it's effective, will you mandate its use?
BIDEN: The answer is depending on how clear - vaccines, they say, have a very positive impact, and they're going to affect positively 85 percent of the American public.
There's others that say this vaccine is really the key, this is - this is - this is the golden key. It depends on the state of the nature of the vaccine, when it comes out, and how it's being distributed. That would depend on. But I would think that we should be talking about, depending on the
continuation of the spread of the virus, we should be thinking about making it mandatory.
STEPHANOPOULOS: How did you --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: What did you get?
GUPTA: Well, it's interesting because he's obviously trying to walk that line. I mean he's talked about the fact that he wouldn't take a vaccine, if it was Trump, who endorsed it, but he would take it if the scientists endorse it. So, he's drawing these lines. And he's - and he's walking the line on the mandatory - whether or not a vaccine should be mandatory as well.
CUOMO: Should it?
GUPTA: So, no surprise. I mean I think - well I think probably not, right at this point, because we don't even have an authorized vaccine. And we'd have to actually see what the data is.
And it hasn't been tested in kids. Who would you give it to? Who's most likely to benefit? Not everyone may benefit the same. So, there's missing data. So, it's a fair thing to say, "Hey, at this point, with what we know, probably not mandating this."
But, Chris, there were other points of distinction though besides the vaccine.
He didn't talk about masks, for example, and brought up this fact that the White House - the model that the White House uses themselves, this IHME model, shows that if there was a near-universal mask mandate, you could save 100,000 lives.
He talked about the idea that the Defense Production Act should have been implemented, so we have a lot more testing, the idea that people could test daily, like they do at the NBA, and other professional sports leagues, and things like that, why isn't that available to the average person?
CUOMO: You get the last word.
GUPTA: He spent - he spent some time also talking about this idea of who knew what when. Did the President - the President knew that this was a deadly virus, far deadlier than a - than a flu virus, and he knew that it was airborne, back on February 7th, so what was done about it.
So, he brought up history and he did bring up this idea of Defense Production Act, for possibly testing, and masks, you know? So, aside from the vaccine, these are the points of distinction.
It was really very much a commentary about economic health being the priority versus human health being the priority, which is where I think Vice President Biden was sort of focusing a lot of his comments tonight.
CUOMO: Right. I think that works on a panel like this. But if you're going to be President, you better have a plan to make it happen. Because walking the walk is hard in government. And I think that's one of the problems.
[21:35:00]
I certainly saw it watching the State of New York trying to deal with the federal government. Remember, I had an unusual inside view, especially early on.
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: And they can say a lot of things. They make very few things happen, even when they say they're trying to, because of how things hard - how hard things are, when you haven't done them before.
Michael, last word to you, at the end of this night, where do you think it leaves us?
SMERCONISH: It's a whiplash evening, going back and forth between the channels. No blood drawn. Each side will see in it what they wanted to see. And all pressure, one week from tonight, on the final debate.
CUOMO: I like it. And I like you.
All of you, thank you very much for being with me tonight. I appreciate it. Let's take a quick breather.
When we come back, let's bring in a couple of different voices. Let's bring in Van Jones and Rick Santorum in terms of - because you got intensity here, of fringes, right? What is the state of play after tonight? Biden's still going, but it's about to end. Next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUTHRIE: Did you test --
TRUMP: I think it was afterwards. GUTHRIE: -- the day of the debate?
TRUMP: I don't know. I don't even remember. I test all the time.
GUTHRIE: So you say you don't know if you got a test on the day of the debate?
TRUMP: I had no problem. Again, the doctors do it. I don't ask them. I test all the time. And they --
GUTHRIE: Did you take a test, though, on the day of the debate?
TRUMP: You know, if you ask the doctor, they'll give you a perfect answer.
GUTHRIE: Yes.
TRUMP: But they take a test, and I leave, and I go about my business.
GUTHRIE: So, did you take a test on the day of the debate, I guess, is the bottom line.
TRUMP: I probably did. And I took a test the day before and the day before. And I was always in great shape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: You were always in great shape until you were in the hospital getting experimental treatments?
Let's bring in Van Jones and Rick Santorum.
Look, guys, I don't have to tell either of you this. Integrity matters in a President of the United States. And even if you've always been a liar, at some point, you got to stop, if you want people to believe you're anything more.
Rick, we both know that their plan of BS privacy game with this, they know whether or not he took a test, on the day of the debate. They could discover it very quickly, and put it out.
We know Chris Wallace said that they showed up too late, the day of the debate, for there to be a test taken there, so they were both on the honor system.
He knows the answer to this, Rick. He's not offering it up. Can you be OK with that?
RICK SANTORUM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, (R) FORMER U.S. SENATOR: Number one, he should be answering the question.
And you're right, it's a knowable thing, and the information can be put out there, and it should be put out there. I think the media's fixation on it is not surprising. But I don't think it's particularly revealing. I think the more important question that's not been answered tonight
is will Joe Biden pack the court? And he's being completely non- transparent about that. In fact, he's being very deliberately saying that the public doesn't have a right to know that.
And that, to me, is a bigger problem and much more important than as to whether the President was positive or not. Look, no one --
CUOMO: Really?
SANTORUM: Joe Biden didn't get infected from Donald Trump. Neither did the - neither did the Host. So let's move on.
CUOMO: Oh, so it's OK, then? As long as nobody got sick, it doesn't matter that you --
SANTORUM: I didn't - no, no, wait a minute.
CUOMO: -- expose them to Coronavirus?
SANTORUM: Excuse me. I didn't - I didn't - Chris, did you hear what I said?
CUOMO: Yes. And I think what you're doing is a hedge --
SANTORUM: I said it's a knowable question. They should put it forward. But --
CUOMO: -- of trying to make it not as important as something else that you want to talk about more.
SANTORUM: No, I'm not - I'm just saying - I don't think it is as important - I don't think it is as important as to whether you're going to fundamentally change the judiciary in this country to make it a political --
CUOMO: Yes, then it's not as important as if our children wake up tomorrow morning.
SANTORUM: -- point of government by stacking it with people.
CUOMO: But it doesn't mean it doesn't matter, Rick. Look, I like talking to you because I expect better out of you than what we're getting from the President --
SANTORUM: I didn't - I didn't say it - I didn't say it didn't matter. I said he should have answered the question. It's a knowable question. He should answer it. But I'm saying the more significant question is the one that Joe Biden's not answering.
CUOMO: All right, you know what? I don't disagree.
I think - again, I think that the true answer is, and I don't like to have to offer them, he's lying. He knows about the test. He doesn't want to offer it up because it's bad information. And that's what he does with everything. And it's symptomatic. That's what I'd like to hear. You didn't say it, but enough.
So Van, court-packing, I keep getting accused of it being a distraction question. I'm doing the work for the GOP, for them, only in this bizarro world, is that a kind of accusation that lands these days. But I don't get the reasoning behind not answering the question.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Yes.
CUOMO: All he has to say is "No," or "You know what? I'm going to hold it over Mitch McConnell's head, because if I win, I need to get some judges passed, and he's going to try to do to me, what he did to Obama, and I'm going to hold this over his head. Let's see how he behaves because this time he's going to pay, if he plays dirty."
Either answer works, but this answer, no good.
JONES: Yes. D-minus on that answer. There's just - there's just no way around it.
And now, he's put himself in this odd position where he says he's going to wait until some other date. I guess what he's saying is that he's holding out some hope that they won't nominate this new Justice, if he continues to play this game. It doesn't make any sense. None of it makes any sense.
And so, I think the reality is the Democrats are very angry and upset, because at every level of the government, right now, it feels like if the deck is kind of stacked against us.
We got two Supreme Court Justice seats that we don't feel were given to the Republicans fairly. You feel like the Electoral College stacks the deck against Democrats. You feel like the Senate's got the filibuster, all these different things, the gerrymandering.
There's - so there's so much pent-up frustration that Democrats are feeling that this issue of being able to pack the court has become a teddy bear for a lot of Democrats to hug onto at night, and he doesn't want to take the teddy bear away. But I think he's hurting his own brand by not doing it.
I think it's better for him just to come forward and say "That's not my brand of politics. I'm not going to do it," or to your point say he's going to use it as a bargaining chip. But right now, I think he's hurting his brand.
CUOMO: I don't want to paraphrase. Control Room, do we have the Roe v. Wade?
SANTORUM: Look --
CUOMO: Hold on, Rick. Just let me see if I have the sound and then I want to hear what you're going to say.
SANTORUM: Sure.
CUOMO: Do we have the Roe v. Wade sound yet, or no?
All right, we're waiting on it, great.
Rick, go ahead, I'm sorry.
[21:45:00]
SANTORUM: No, I just think the idea that Democrats are frustrated because of a filibuster rule that's been in place for 120 years, or the Electoral College that's been in place since the founding of the country, I mean, those are hard things to be upset about.
JONES: I can talk to you about them.
SANTORUM: I mean I understand you may want to change them.
CUOMO: Go ahead, Van.
SANTORUM: I understand you may want to change them.
JONES: I'll tell you why.
SANTORUM: But the reality is those things have been around for a long, long time.
JONES: Yes, they --
CUOMO: Yes, so let's discuss. Go ahead.
JONES: Yes. They have been around for a while.
The problem that we're having now is, and I think it's dangerous for the country, is you're starting - some of these protections that were put in the Constitution to make sure that small states weren't run over by the big states, trying to protect, frankly, big, big states - little states from big states, the problem is you now have a demographic problem, where the big states also have a whole bunch of people of color.
They're big Blue states on the coast. And you got a different politics there. And now, it's starting to feel - this is not by design. But sometimes you draw out the cards a certain way.
All these little Red states, when you got Wyoming with 500,000 people has two senators, and they can filibuster, and California's got 30 million people, and only has two, it starts to feel like a rub.
And so, all I'm saying is if you want to look at what's going on, I'm not saying - what I'm saying is let's look at what's rubbing different people different ways.
It's starting to feel like the House is gerrymandered, the Senate is unfair, plus the filibuster, on the presidency, you've got the Electoral College, the Supreme Court, you got two stolen seats, you're starting to have a big problem for Democrats saying "How come every time the unfairness seems to run against us." And that's what Joe Biden's trying to manage.
SANTORUM: Well, that's because it's not true. First off, it's not true. Number one, gerrymandering happens. Look at California. You want to see gerrymandering? How about the State of California?
JONES: We have --
SANTORUM: I mean Jones, let's just be honest.
CUOMO: Go point for point.
SANTORUM: Gerrymandering goes on with both political parties whoever.
CUOMO: People can hear you both. Give each other a chance.
SANTORUM: And so - so --
CUOMO: But get the - get the points in.
SANTORUM: Yes, so --
CUOMO: Go ahead.
SANTORUM: Yes, so the idea that this is a partisan thing, gerrymandering goes on in both ways. And look, we got to go back and realize that we are a republic, and we are a group of states, and state sovereignty is important, and protecting the rights of states --
JONES: Sure.
SANTORUM: -- so that the federal government doesn't overrun states.
CUOMO: All right, so that's the theory.
SANTORUM: And basically create one big national government, is an important part of --
CUOMO: That's the theory for the system.
SANTORUM: -- is an important part of our federal system.
CUOMO: That's the theory for the system. It's absolutely put in at the inception. Counterpoint?
JONES: Yes, well, my point is exactly that. On paper, it's perfectly fine and justifiable. But you're now starting to have a situation where people, I think, are justifiably feeling.
Every single time it's the Red states that have - seem to have the advantage now. And the Red states - look, if the Red states were full of Brown people, and people of color it would have a different valence.
Here's the other point - listen, you want to understand what Joe Biden is trying to do. Joe Biden is trying to manage a Party - you think the Democrats have a cakewalk every day, and we are all happy and we should just be - the Democrats don't feel that way.
We're looking at the police acting in ways that make no sense. We're looking at a Congress that is not acting to help people in the middle of a pandemic. We're looking at a Supreme Court, where two seats have been taken away from us, and Obama didn't get treated fairly.
You're looking at a whole bunch of issues. And so, some pent-up demand is there for structural reform.
That's why you have people saying like "Well, can we have two more State Senate? If it's going to - if you're going to have the Senate work this way, give us Puerto Rico, give us D.C. Do something to relieve the pressure on us." And Biden is dancing on that.
CUOMO: All right.
JONES: Trying to figure it out.
CUOMO: Let's play the Roe v. Wade sound.
SANTORUM: Yes.
CUOMO: Because I don't have a lot of time, Rick. And this is going to be resonant tonight, especially on your side of the political spectrum.
Listen to the President's attempt to non-answer Roe v. Wade.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, again, I'm not ruling on this. And Roe v. Wade is something that a lot of people would say obviously you're going to speak to somebody.
I also - two other great justices, Justice Gorsuch and Justice Kavanaugh, I never spoke to them about Roe v. Wade. I never spoke to them about election laws. I never spoke to them about anything. And I've done the right thing, from a moral standpoint. I don't even know from a legal standpoint. But it was the right thing.
I think, depending on what happens with Roe v. Wade, I think that perhaps it could get sent down to the states, and the states would decide. I also think perhaps nothing will happen.
I have not talked to her about it. I think it would be inappropriate to talk to her about it. And some people would say you can talk to her about it. I just think it would be inappropriate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Absolutely nobody would tell you that you should talk to a judge about it. I actually think you should because I think the whole thing is a BS circus. These judges from the Left and the Right go before these senators --
SANTORUM: I -- CUOMO: -- and they tell you nothing. The only one who did was Bork.
And that's why he got dinged. I think the whole thing is a joke. But put that to the side. It's the system the way it is right now. Him not answering that question --
SANTORUM: And - well I think him - he answered the question exactly right. I mean he's - he basically said --
CUOMO: How so?
SANTORUM: -- I'm not - it's well I'm not - I don't have a litmus test. I mean I won't --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Of course he does. He said many times they're going to get rid of --
SANTORUM: And I'm not asking.
CUOMO: -- Roe v. Wade. The Federalist Society wouldn't put somebody on their list --
SANTORUM: I understand. I --
CUOMO: -- if they weren't exposed to doing that.
SANTORUM: Well, I think you're going to be surprised, to be honest with you.
CUOMO: Really?
SANTORUM: I think Roe v. Wade is probably going to be around for - I do.
CUOMO: A member of the People of Praise --
SANTORUM: Look, I think these judges --
[21:50:00]
CUOMO: -- is not going to be against Roe v. Wade?
SANTORUM: Again, this is how Democrats and Republicans look differently at the court.
I mean, what Republicans want is not somebody going in there to put their agenda in place. They want someone who's actually going to enforce what the Constitution says, as it was intended. That's why we support textualists and originalists, not people who go on there with their agenda.
JONES: Well, Garland --
SANTORUM: And become a political arm. So, I don't - I don't want --
JONES: If that was to you, you'd love Merrick Garland.
SANTORUM: -- my judge to be political.
JONES: Well --
CUOMO: No, you just want --
SANTORUM: Well because - again, that's a different --
CUOMO: -- you don't want them to be political.
SANTORUM: -- that's a different situation.
CUOMO: You just want them to have all the rulings that your Party likes.
SANTORUM: No, I don't. I want them to follow the Constitution. I think that's - that's the difference. We're not - I don't want them to be political.
JONES: This is silly.
SANTORUM: I want them to actually decide the case --
CUOMO: All right.
SANTORUM: -- and that's it.
CUOMO: OK. Go ahead, Van.
JONES: I'm just not even going to respond to that. It's obvious that both parties are trying to get people that see the world. It's just I don't mean we're going to play that game. What I will say is this. I believe --
SANTORUM: It's not a game, from what - I think, from Conservatives, this is not a game.
JONES: You are one of the most principled conservatives that we have, and I'm not going to argue with you about it. But I'm going to tell you, in the real world, it is very clear which judges vote which way. And there's a reason there's passion to put her on, and Merrick Garland was stopped.
Listen, I just want to just point out something. You had an opportunity there for Trump to be honest. And he almost took it. He said he hadn't talked to her about it.
The deception there is that he put out a list, even before he ran for President, of a whole bunch of judges that met a litmus test. And so, to pretend that he doesn't have one now, suddenly today, I think, is deceptive, it's just dishonest.
CUOMO: And he says, "We're going to pick judges that get rid of Roe v. Wade."
SANTORUM: Well number one, hold on, I --
CUOMO: Rick, he said it.
SANTORUM: -- I talked to Donald - I talked to Donald Trump about that list, the few days before he put it out. In fact, we had a very long discussion. We talked about people on that list.
And I actually put - suggested a name, which he actually did put on that list that I can tell you that the reason those people are on the list is because they look at the Constitution, not as someplace that you can try to find new rights, and find things to get --
CUOMO: Like when Scalia found an individual right in the Second Amendment that had never been in the jurisprudence --
SANTORUM: -- what you want to accomplish politically. But --
JONES: Exactly. In 233 years?
CUOMO: -- until that point?
SANTORUM: Well that's not - look --
CUOMO: Come on, Rick.
SANTORUM: That is not true.
CUOMO: You're both playing the same game.
SANTORUM: I mean it's just not true. I mean --
CUOMO: Don't try to pretend you're not. That's what the Parties do.
SANTORUM: Well I don't --
JONES: Can I brag - can I brag on Joe Biden for one second?
SANTORUM: No - you cannot.
JONES: Can I brag on --
CUOMO: Come on. Rick will be quiet for that, so will I. Go ahead.
JONES: Good. I want to brag on Joe Biden for one second.
SANTORUM: Sure, one second, sure. Use it.
CUOMO: I thought you said "Rag." Did you say "Brag?"
JONES: I said "Brag."
CUOMO: Oh, you only have 15 seconds then, go ahead.
JONES: Now, listen, there was a moment in the Town Hall where the - what's happening with transgender women of color came up, and I've never seen a presidential candidate, at this level, address it the way he did. He took it on seriously.
There is a real crisis here, where transgender women of color being murdered way out of proportion than anybody else. It's not being discussed. And he took it on aggressively and well. I just want to give him credit for doing that.
I wish more people would really - if you love America, you got to love all Americans. I think Joe Biden showed that tonight.
CUOMO: You are right. We have seen it. It's not reported on enough either. It is a good point. I'm happy it was brought up, let alone addressed.
Van Jones, Rick Santorum, I respect it. I respect all of it, and I thank you for bringing it to my show. I appreciate it, all right? We'll be right back.
SANTORUM: Thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Daniel Dale, Fact-Checker Extraordinaire, to arm us with some facts about both Town halls. What stood out to you, my friend?
DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Again, it was the fact that there was just no comparison, Chris. Biden made scattered false and misleading claims, no doubt. But this was another bombardment of dishonesty from the President. I want to go through some of the things they said.
Trump repeated his ridiculous claim that he will always protect people with pre-existing conditions. That is a promise already broken and currently being broken. He is, in court, trying to get rid of all of Obamacare, including those protections with no replacement plan.
He said that Obama and Biden didn't even try to get Criminal Justice Reform. They did. In fact, a bill, a bipartisan bill was blocked, in 2016, by Republican Mitch McConnell.
Trump rejected Host Savannah Guthrie's correct assertion that there is no evidence of widespread fraud with mail-voting. He said you can read newspapers, watch the news. She was right. He was wrong. The examples he cited tonight are not fraud. He said something he said twice, earlier today, and he said the CDC found that 85 percent of people who wear masks get the Coronavirus. I'm going to have a piece online, on cnn.com, about this soon, getting into the details. But that is totally wrong, Chris. The CDC study was not even looking at the percentage of mask-wearers who get the virus.
He defended a truly bonkers conspiracy theory, as he does about Obama SEAL Team Six and Osama bin Laden, which he retweeted. He said it was mere opinion. No, Chris, it's not a debatable subjective opinion. It's a ridiculous offensive lie.
He claimed that 2.2 million deaths were expected in the pandemic. No, that 2.2 million figure, Chris, was for, if the government did nothing, and no citizen did anything, to fight the virus. It was not an expectation.
He said again that he's done more for African-Americans than any president since Abraham Lincoln. I try not to fact-check opinion, but this is just ludicrous. Lyndon Johnson, for one, signed the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act.
He boasted again about adding a record of 11.4 million jobs in the past five months. As always, he did not mention that we lost 22.2 million jobs over the previous two months.
He said again that Biden wants to quadruple your taxes. Just know that's just wrong, Chris. An independent analysis found that.
And he continued to say a bunch of other inaccurate things that he said before, on the pandemic. He said "We're rounding the turn on the pandemic." He said earlier today, it'd peter out. We are experiencing a surge in cases in hospitalizations. There is no turn happening.
Now, as I said, we also did have some false or misleading claims from Biden. I didn't watch that one myself, so I'm relying on the team. I'll go through it further - in further detail later.
But Biden said that when the first round of enhanced unemployment finished, Trump, he said, didn't do anything. Actually Trump did do something. He signed an executive measure to take billions in federal disaster aid to give $300 a week to the jobless. So, that's certainly something.
