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Wisconsin Sees Spike in Coronavirus Cases; Adviser to President Trump on Coronavirus Dr. Scott Atlas Makes Controversial Tweet; House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin Continue Negotiations over Economic Stimulus Bill. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired October 19, 2020 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:00:00]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Meantime over the weekend in early voting states. So far more than 27 million ballots have been cast. That is nearly 20 percent of the total ballots cast in all of 2016.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: With cases on the rise, no story bigger in this country right now than the pandemic. So joining us, Dr. Ashish Jha, Dean of Brown University School of Public Health and professor of Health Services Policy and Practice. Also with us, Dr. Ryan Westergaard, he's the chief medical officer and State Epidemiologist for Communicable Diseases at the Wisconsin Department of Health Services.

Dr. Westergaard, I want to start with you here, because Wisconsin has been in some ways the hottest of hot spots in the country, the area of biggest concern over the last several weeks. We don't have new numbers from Wisconsin because they've been reloading or reassessing, I think, the computers and the counting there, but just give us a sense of where things stand this morning, new cases, hospitalizations, how are you doing?

DR. RYAN WESTERGAARD, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, WISCONSIN DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH: Good morning, and thanks for asking. Our data have been relatively constant over the past week or two, and they've been constantly at the highest levels we've ever seen. So between 3,000 and approaching 4,000 new cases in a state of just less than 6 million people is one of the worst areas in the country. So that's translating into strained hospital capacity in all of our health care regions. We're hearing places talk about health care worker shortages and we're talking about ICUs that are reaching or were trending toward reaching their capacity.

HILL: So when we hear that, it immediately brings you back to the spring and what the concerns were in New York in the early days. The fact that you seem to be stuck in this place in Wisconsin, what is it you think that maybe people are not understanding, because these numbers are out there, and especially when we talk about hospitalizations, Dr. Westergaard, that really tends to put it in perspective for people.

WESTERGAARD: It does. And it's a little unclear why the message is slow to take on. We've been dealing with this for nine months, and Wisconsin and many of the Midwest states were spared the initial surge that resulted in a lot of strain on the hospital system.

The other thing that's happened which I think makes it challenging is that we've really started to understand the disparity in severe illness among older and sicker people, and younger, healthier people. And so it's become more difficult to get the message out that this is a severe pandemic that affects all of us when people who are in younger aging groups, who are healthier, can appropriately say, yes, but it's not going to be that bad for me. We really need a shared sense of responsibility, and nine months in, that's been hard to steer us into that direction.

BERMAN: I think one of the issues, frankly, is leadership at a national level, because people are watching, and I think they're getting mixed signals, to say the least, if not perhaps signals that are sending them in the wrong direction, Dr. Jha. Scott Atlas, who is the president's adviser, I guess at this point, perhaps chief adviser on coronavirus acting like a kind of medical Rasputin, whispering in the president's ear, and you can see it reflected on the campaign trail.

Just so people know, he just put out a tweet, Scott Atlas did, quoting "1984," George Orwell, saying "The Party told to you reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." I don't know if Atlas is decrying Orwell or endorsing this. I don't know if he's speaking on behalf of Oceana there, because, Dr. Jha, Scott Atlas over the last week has put out tweets that Twitter had to take down criticizing mask wearing. He has attacked people who want to increase testing around the country. And now you have the president on the stump criticizing Joe Biden for supporting science. So what's the impact of this type of leadership, Dr. Jha?

DR. ASHISH JHA, DIRECTOR, HARVARD GLOBAL HEALTH INSTITUTE: Sorry, I just cut out there. Yes, I caught that, most of that, John. A couple of quick things. First of all, thank you for having me on. We do have a real problem with national leadership, and what's interesting is Dr. Atlas is not somebody who has much experience with infectious disease outbreaks, and he has been spreading a lot of disinformation. And it has been a huge problem.

And then of course, when people push back, he acts like the victim who is being censored. He has the biggest platform in the world. He has the White House behind him, and his policy suggestions of no testing, no mask wearing, just sort of let it rip and let the broad population get infected is a recipe for lots of people dying. And by the way, states that have bucked his suggestions, California and New York, are generally doing pretty well. And states that have followed his sort of suggestions and ideas are struggling with lots of infections, lots of hospitalizations, and unfortunately lots of deaths.

[08:05:04]

HILL: As we look at the messaging, the very mixed messaging which we've been talking about for months, what's remarkable, and we hear from Dr. Westergaard, is it's younger people -- and this is not new, right, -- younger people looking at the virus, Dr. Jha, and saying I'm not going to get as sick. I don't really have to worry about it as much. But increasingly no, it's not just younger people who can get the virus, maybe it's not as serious, but they certainly can spread it to people who may have more severe symptoms.

But it's also the way it's being spread. I have to say, it feels like on October 19th, I feel like a broken record, but if we take a 30,000 foot view this morning, Dr. Jha, where are your biggest concerns? When we're looking at a map that is just riddled with spikes in cases, 27 states seeing an increase this week, it's certainly not getting any better, and we're heading into the worst of it.

JHA: So let's talk about young people first. Again the messaging out of the White House has been let young people get infected. And this has been amplified by a lot of voices in the media. The problem is while it is true, thankfully, that most young people don't get very sick, young people interact with older people. They have parents, they have grandparents, they have uncles and aunts, and they spread it. And that's what we have seen over and over again, that the infections rise with young people, and then eventually spread to the rest of the population, sort of as one would expect.

In terms of where I'm concerned, the problem here is so much of the country is going up. There are some pockets of places that are not. And we're heading into the holiday season, where it's going to be very hard for people not to want to see family and friends. And again, this is all predictive. Over the summer we were saying this is coming, and unfortunately the federal policymakers largely decided to ignore it and hope that it would naturally or magically go away. We know that pandemics don't do that.

BERMAN: That's the part that concerns me, Dr. Westergaard, is that it's mid-October. It's not winter yet. It's mid-fall. Winter was the time I think people were most concerned about it. It's the idea that as bad as things are right now, they could get even worse. Michael Osterholm from nearby Minnesota to you, he says overnight that the next six to 12 weeks could be the darkest of this pandemic. Why do you think he has those concerns based on what you're seeing, Dr. Westergaard?

WESTERGAARD: Well, I agree. I believe that the trajectory that we're on right now is a very dangerous one, because here in Wisconsin and Minnesota, weather is getting colder, people are spending more time indoor, people are watching football, that is the virus in which the virus is going to transmit most readily.

So the fact that we haven't started turning a corner now that we're into mid and late October is very concerning. I think there's room for optimism because when we've seen places who have made a concerted effort to turn the corner, we think about New York City in the spring, it doesn't take that long. A concerted effort affecting the whole population of staying home and taking these mitigation strategies seriously can make a difference.

But unfortunately, we're not seeing trends in individuals behaviors and we're not seeing trends in our case count that we're doing that yet. But there is still time, I believe, but I think everyone who is concerned that this is likely to get worse before it gets better is right on, unless we do some very dramatically different things.

BERMAN: Look, Dr. Westergaard, thank you for the work you're doing. You are right in the middle of the worst of it. We appreciate you being with us. Dr. Jha, as always, we appreciate your insight, thank you.

Developing this morning, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says that she and Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin must reach an agreement by tomorrow if they're going to pass a coronavirus stimulus relief bill before Election Day. CNN White House correspondent John Harwood joins us now the latest. They've been talking by phone. Where do we think things actually stand this morning, John?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think a bill is not going to be passed by Election Day. I think what's happening now is Mitch McConnell is going to bring a smaller package to the floor in the Senate. Democrats are likely to block that. Pelosi is playing out the string on these conversations with Steve Mnuchin. The problem is, even though the president has said, well, I want to go big, I want even a bigger deal than Pelosi's talking about, there are big disagreements on the specifics, on money for state and local government, on testing strategy, there are disagreements about liability protections for businesses.

And most of all, there is a disagreement between Senate Republicans and the White House on whether it makes sense to go big. Mitch McConnell has said I'm putting a package on the floor that I think is the right size for us. Many Senate conservatives do not want to pass any bill, and those who are up for reelection only have so much ability to push the rest of the conference.

[08:10:00]

There has been pressure from people in contested races for Congress to do something, but that's not most of the caucus. And so I think conversations are going to be had. She has set a deadline which will allow people to make a judgment about a cutoff point for the talks, but I don't think they're likely to yield anything that becomes law before Election Day.

BERMAN: You bring up a great point, obviously, on terms of the amount of money. The issue is with Senate Republicans who want less than is on the table right now. They want less than the White House's highest offer right now. So from the money side it's the Senate Republicans that may be the biggest obstacle.

On the testing side of it, this is really interesting, because it gets to a lot of the other discussions we're having this morning about Dr. Scott Atlas, this radiologist who now apparently is the puppet master of all coronavirus policy in the country. Atlas does not want expanded testing reportedly. Atlas doesn't think testing helps. He's opposed to it for some reason. So as part of this stimulus or relief deal, the Democrats are asking for more testing. Steve Mnuchin may be willing to give on testing, but if Atlas has the president's ear on it, we don't know where that will go.

HARWOOD: John, in the context of the public health discussion, Scott Atlas is a kook. He sent that tweet over the weekend suggesting that mask wearing does not work, was contradicted by Brett Giroir, one of the members of the task force, and contradicted by everyone who works in public health, contradicted, by the way, by Mitch McConnell, who has been a very faithful proponent of mask wearing and the merits of mask wearing.

That's why this is a very disconnected kind of conversation. President Trump, as he trails Joe Biden in the polls substantially, has lost his ability to move Senate Republicans. Senate Republicans are not inclined to move, and the president has this strange outlier, fringe outlier in the public health debate in his ear, and all that lends is a completely multisided discussions that is not likely to get to the finish line.

BERMAN: He has an audience of one, Scott Atlas does, but that audience is the president who appears to be listening to him this morning, which has public health and, as you say, political implications. John Harwood, always a pleasure. Thank you so much.

So we have new details this morning on how both the president and former vice president Joe Biden plan to spend the next 15 days, 15 days left to vote. The very latest on the presidential race, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:16:25]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Battleground blitz just 15 days now to go until the final votes are cast. Former Vice President Joe Biden warning his supporters now is not the time to become complacent.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I'm running as a proud Democrat. But I will govern as an American President. No red states, no blue states, just the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Joining us now, Mark McKinnon, former media adviser for George W. Bush's presidential campaign and former adviser for John McCain's presidential campaign; and CNN political analyst Kirsten Powers, also "U.S.A. Today" columnist. Good to see both of you this morning.

You know, as we look at what is ahead for this final two week push here. I think just the plans for this week say a lot.

We have the President holding two rallies in Arizona today. He is hopscotching around the country, at least through the debate in Nashville on Thursday night. Joe Biden is laying low, Mark.

As we look at what the President is likely going to do with those rallies, I don't see a new message coming. I don't see much changing. I mean, what could he do at this point, though, to maybe turn things around, give himself a little bit of a boost?

MARK MCKINNON, FORMER MEDIA ADVISER FOR GEORGE W. BUSH'S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Well, the problem with the rallies is that he is going into states, many of which are seeing coronavirus spikes. So he is exacerbating the problem that he has got, which is, the race become a referendum on COVID.

And so he goes to the states and the local coverage especially is packing a punch because it's saying Donald Trump is here. COVID is spiking. Meanwhile, he is holding huge rallies with people who are not socially distancing, and many of whom are not wearing masks.

So he is in many ways making the story for himself worse, not better by holding these rallies in states where the virus is spiking.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: That's the point I've been making this morning, which is at the very picture he seems to want most is the one that's the least helpful to him politically. Forget the public health message which is also dead wrong, you know, pun intended on dead wrong.

And Kirsten, it just strikes me that if we're at -- we were at 70,000 cases on Friday. We're averaging 56,000 cases. By November 3rd, we could be to 80,000 cases a day. And I just don't know, tell me if I'm wrong here, what else will matter by November 3rd if we have that many cases of coronavirus in the country?

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think Donald Trump always has focused primarily on his very core supporters, right? The people who show up to the rallies. And so he lives in a bit of an alternative universe where COVID isn't the biggest problem in the world.

In fact, it's something you know that the media is exaggerating, and that, you know, people are using to harm Donald Trump.

You know, facts be damned, reality be damned. I mean, he really can provide an alternate reality.

And so, you know, I think he continues to focus on that and believe that he did that, he focused on them last time and that this time that will work for him. I mean -- and he must have made a decision to not believe the polls, because, you know, there's obviously people who have moved away from him, like seniors, for example, who were with him last time, who are moving away from him precisely because of COVID.

But he seems to just really be doubling down on this strategy. And, you know, I think that perhaps he is thinking, you know, last time the polls were wrong and they are wrong this time, and so I'm just going to keep doing what I think, you know, my voters want to hear.

[08:20:02]

HILL: You know, speaking of last time the polls were wrong. That's sort of the message that we're getting actually from the Biden campaign saying, hey, be really careful about what you see right now. And the lead that you may see that Joe Biden has, because now is not the time to sit back, you know, even say we cannot -- very clearly we cannot become complacent.

Mark McKinnon, as you look at that, is that where the campaign should be at this point, reminding people that is not over?

MCKINNON: Absolutely. The best thing that happened to the Biden 2020 campaign is the Clinton '16 campaign. Everybody has PTSD in the Democratic Party.

The Biden campaign -- I mean, that the ultimate number one maxim of any political campaign is always run like you're 20 points down even if you're 20 points up. You do not want to send the message to any voter that things are going well and it's in the bag because the message that's received when they hear that is, okay, if it's in the bag, then I don't have to go vote.

They want to send a message that this -- that every single vote matters and that this race is tight as a tick as we say in Texas. And that's why Lyndon Johnson in that classic race, you know, newspaper polls have published information that he was going to win and maybe win huge and the message that they took was that was a problem for their base because they might be complacent. That's when they created the "Daisy" ad to scare the hell out of everybody that Barry Goldwater was going to be elected and have his finger on the nuclear trigger.

BERMAN: Nothing like a mushroom cloud to scare people into going to vote there, Mark. Do we have the science attack from President Trump here because this too, is interesting to me -- President Trump is out there and he is talking about a lot of things?

We'll talk about the attacks on Gretchen Whitmer, a little bit later this hour, but I want to focus again on the message he is sending about coronavirus and Joe Biden. Listen to what he is choosing to attack Joe Biden on, Kirsten.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you vote for Biden, he will surrender you jobs to China. He will surrender your future to the virus. He's going to lock down. He just wants to lock down. He'll listen to the scientists.

If I listened totally to the scientists, we would right now have a country that would be in a massive depression instead of were like a rocket ship. Take a look at the numbers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: You can just look at it with the lower third on your screen here that says, if Biden is elected, he will listen to the scientists. That that's an attack from the President this morning.

POWERS: Yes, I mean, this is part of his -- you know, I mean, frankly, the Republican Party has, you know, for a long time attacked institutions, at least the conservatives have. It's why so many conservatives and so many Republicans don't believe in climate change, right? Because there's been this undermining of science, this idea that there are a bunch of pointy headed liberals that can't be trusted, that just have some sort of liberal agenda.

And Trump has kind of taken it to the extreme that they're -- you know, with climate change, it is something that is, you know, we do see the effects right now, but not the ultimate effects.

We see the ultimate effects right now of what happens when you don't listen to the scientists. And Trump has just gone all in on that because he has a group of people who are very receptive to the idea that you can't trust all of these liberal scientists. You can't trust, you know, all of these liberal academics. It's just -- it's kind of -- it's the natural conclusion of a very dangerous strategy on the part of the right.

BERMAN: And Mark, very quickly, given that Donald Trump is out there saying of Joe Biden, he is going to listen to the scientists. What do you think of Joe Biden's call to spend the next three days in debate prep without any real giant public events?

MCKINNON: Well, a couple things, John. First of all, I think that the Biden campaign and probably Lincoln Project have probably made ads already with Donald Trump echoing the notion that Joe Biden will listen to scientists, and part of listening to scientists is not going out in huge rallies with people that don't have masks and aren't social distancing, and it's probably a good idea.

Certainly, from my experience in politics, when you have a debate, maybe to do some preparation. Donald Trump should have last time. He interrupted Joe Biden 72 times, so maybe it would be good for him to do a little preparation and get that message from his advisers.

BERMAN: Mark McKinnon and Kirsten Powers, great to have you on this morning. Great to see both of you. Thanks so much.

MCKINNON: Thank you, John. Thanks.

BERMAN: So the Mayor of Tucson, Arizona is speaking out just hours before President Trump campaigns there. We will speak with her next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:28:32]

BERMAN: Later today, President Trump holds two campaign rallies in Arizona. Now masks will be provided at the Tucson rally, but wearing them is not required.

New coronavirus cases in Arizona off their summer peak, but perhaps on the rise again. The Mayor of Tucson is warning the Trump campaign in a letter that quote, "It would be deeply unfortunate if one gathering jeopardize all the progress we have made thus far."

Joining us now Tucson Mayor, Regina Romero. She has endorsed Joe Biden for President.

Mayor, thank you so much for being with us. You wrote a letter to the Trump campaign really to the President directly asking him to be careful at this rally. Why?

MAYOR REGINA ROMERO (D), TUCSON, ARIZONA: Good morning. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate the invitation.

A couple of things: one, and most importantly; because Arizona as you will know was a hotspot in the world of COVID-19 cases, and we've made tremendous progress and the people of Tucson have made much sacrifice to bring the -- to control the spread of COVID-19.

And so we're asking the President that he please comply with C.D.C. guidelines that the City of Tucson has a mandatory mask ordinance and that we ask him and his attendants to please comply with the mask and follow CDC guidelines. We do not want to see a super spreader event.

[08:30:08]