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Presidential Debate Commissions Adds Ability to Mute Microphones of Participants During Debate; Supreme Court Splits on Pennsylvania Vote Counting Decision; Coronavirus Cases Rising in States Across U.S.; Hours to Go Before Deadline to Reach Stimulus Deal; Rep. Jim Clyburn (D-SC) is Interviewed About the Stimulus Deal. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired October 20, 2020 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Is not low at all. Thirty-one states are seeing a rise in cases this morning, all those states in red and orange there. Fourteen states have seen record numbers of hospitalizations in the last week. More than 220,000 Americans have died. The president is using his time now to attack Dr. Anthony Fauci, the most respected infectious disease doctor in the country. This morning Dr. Fauci has a new response to the president. We will play that for you in a moment. He's quoting "The Godfather." As for the president, it begs the question, why is he issuing these attacks. It makes you wonder whether he thinks his campaign sleeps with the fishes.

We begin with the breaking news on the Supreme Court, what it means for Pennsylvania and the election. Joining us now, CNN's John Harwood and Abby Phillip. Abby, I want to start with you. Bigger picture, the Supreme Court ruling means in Pennsylvania more mail-in ballots will be counted for longer, for three days after November 3rd, after in- person Election Day is over. Why are Democrats this morning so excited about this ruling?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, in some ways you can't extrapolate too much from this ruling, but the very individual significance for Pennsylvania is why Democrats are so happy about this ruling. Pennsylvania is such a critical state, particularly for Joe Biden. It makes his path to 270 much easier. But it's a state that Democrats were really worried about in terms of how quickly they'd be able to count ballots, in terms of how long people would have to submit their ballots.

And so this legal war has been going on for so long. What I'm hearing is that people are saying that this is basically a win because, in large part, this issue is being settled. We are now 14 days, two weeks exactly, before Election Day. It is going to be very difficult for this to be reversed after the election, which is something that the White House and the president had signaled that he would attempt to do in a lot of these critical swing states. And Pennsylvania is a state they are new to this mail-in voting thing. So for voters who are doing this for the first time, who are not sure how to do it, who may get their ballots late because of mail delays, this is going to give them a lot more leeway.

And of course, we know Democratic voters are much more likely to vote by mail than Republican voters, and that's a ratio than I think Democrats need to be in their favor. They need as those ballots, as many of them to be counted as possible.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And for the rest of America, John, it means it could be a long election night. It could be an election Friday. That's how long, at least the head of the election division in Pennsylvania, is saying that they can count for, and we should prepare that they will still be counting until then.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: In theory, that's correct. However, Joe Biden in Pennsylvania, which as Abby indicated, is ground zero for the Electoral College, it's what we think is most likely to be the tipping point state that decides who gets to 270 electoral votes. Joe Biden has had a lead that's pretty substantial in Pennsylvania. If you look at the polling averages, he's up more than six points there, he's over 50 percent. So the odds that the increment of vote that comes in after Election Day for those three days tipping the state is lower.

It matters more if the race is razor thin. It's not right now, and we have got a new "New York Times" poll out this morning nationally showing Joe Biden holding a nine percentage point lead. So the larger Joe Biden's lead, the less this case matters.

But as Abby noted about Amy Coney Barrett, this was a four-four decision in the court. The four hardcore conservatives on one side, the three liberals and Chief Justice John Roberts, who is conservative but is very concerned about the reputation of the court, that it not appear to be too partisan, he sided with the three liberals. That deadlocked the court and let the state Supreme Court ruling stand.

If Amy Coney Barrett gets confirmed as we expect next week, that means that given the ideological predisposition she has and the way she ducked certain questions and said she wasn't necessarily going to recuse herself from election related cases, that suggests that she's going to tip that balance toward the conservatives. So if we end up with a closer election than we expect, in cases that matter, in states that matter, this could be very significant in terms of where the alignment of the court is headed.

BERMAN: John, you and Abby have both moderated presidential debates, so I know this news is of keen interest to both you. The debate commission says it will enforce rules -- by the way, these rules actually had been agreed to by both campaigns at the very beginning of this, which is that each candidate get two minutes of uninterrupted speaking time at the beginning of each segment to answer the initial questions. Those rules actually were in place. What's different now, Abby, is the debate commission says they will mute the microphone of the candidate not answering the initial question during that two- minute period.

[08:05:00] Why? As we know, President Trump trod all upon those two minutes. He didn't wait for Joe Biden to speak for the two full minutes before he interrupted. So now the debate commission will start figuring out a way to mute the microphone here. The Trump campaign saying it doesn't like it, but the president is still showing up, which shows you how much he needs this debate. What's the major takeaway, Abby?

PHILLIP: The major takeaway is that the president and his campaign, they want the fight with the debate commission, they want this counter narrative that this is all rigged against him. Even though, as you point out, this is not something that is counter to the rules. Actually, that is the rule. And it's that the president wanted to break the rules, so now he's upset because the mics will be muted. I don't think it will substantively change anything. The two candidates are going to be able to debate. They're going to be able to talk over each other or two each other after this two-minute period.

But a key part of the strategy, and I think this is clearly a base strategy because I can't see this really working for many of these independent, undecided voters, women voters, it's a base strategy to work the refs and basically say this is all just a game rigged against me and rigged against us. That will only get the president so far. He, as you pointed out, needs this debate. He needs this debate to go well for him. And it actually would be, probably, in his best interest to, to some extent, play by the rules and not give off the same kind of energy that he did last time, which really a lot of voters did not respond well to.

CAMEROTA: John, we want to ask you about Dr. Fauci, because this war of words between President Trump -- really it's coming from President Trump. Dr. Fauci has just said and responded to the insults from President Trump and said it's nothing personal, it's just business. But of course, President Trump makes things personal. John likes it because it was a "Godfather" reference that Dr. Fauci was alluding to.

BERMAN: It's ice cold. You only pull out "The Godfather" when you mean business.

CAMEROTA: I understand all that, but I guess that the bigger question, John, is what does this mean for the health of the country? Is Dr. Fauci still able to be helpful? Is he still able to weigh in on any sort of plan if one were to exist? Or is he so sidelined that really it has just deteriorated into only a war of words?

HARWOOD: I think, Alisyn, he is still able to be helpful. The American people believe Tony Fauci much more than they believe President Trump. And what we see is even in the absence of government mandates, say a mask mandate, which Joe Biden has talked about encouraging in states across the country, people are scared and they're protecting themselves. It's not perfect. It's not 100 percent. But people recognize that cases are surging.

What President Trump is doing, he's essentially given up on fighting the coronavirus and he's trying to justify that in the remaining days as he goes around to these mask-less rallies and gets applauded by people who laugh at his jokes about Dr. Anthony Fauci. He's trying to make himself feel better. He's very insecure, and he is trying to justify what he's done. It's not gaining him votes, just like, as Abby indicated, his wild debate strategy a couple weeks ago did not gain him votes. But he's doing what makes him feel good.

Anthony Fauci, by standing up for public health, for views that are shared broadly in the American public, is still making a difference because his voice is believed where Donald Trump's is not.

BERMAN: John Harwood, Abby Phillip, thank you both very much. Just so people know what Dr. Fauci said, I just want to play you Dr. Fauci quoting "The Godfather" here in response to President Trump. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: It's like in "The Godfather," nothing personal, strictly business.

(LAUGHTER)

FAUCI: As far as I'm concerned, I just want to do my job and take care of the people of this country. That's all I want to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: He says it's strictly business, nothing personal, which in "The Godfather," as you know, is what you say before you're about to whack somebody. Joining us now is Michael Osterholm, director the Center of Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. Also with us, CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

That's all politics. What matters now, friends, is where we are in this pandemic, 58,000 new cases reported on a Monday. That is the worst Monday we have had since July. And Professor Osterholm you're on the record saying that we are about to enter a six to 12 week period that could be the darkest of the pandemic. What has you so concerned?

DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR OF INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA: What we're seeing right now is that the general public has largely come to the point of saying we're done with this virus, even though the virus is not done with them. We're seeing transmission in our communities, in the home, in bars and restaurants, at family gatherings, funerals, weddings, you name it.

[08:10:02]

And for the first time in many areas we're seeing half the cases having no recognized risk exposure, meaning they didn't know somebody that was infected. So it shows you how prevalent or how common this virus transmission is in our communities. We're not going to have vaccines in any meaningful way well into next year. And so you put that kind of situation with exposures and the fact that we're only going to see more transmission occur with indoor air, people inside, this is going to be a rough fall. CAMEROTA: Oh, my gosh, Sanjay, that's a really interesting point that

50 percent of the people have no known exposure because this is such a mysterious virus. The first thing we're going to do is say, where did you get it? Who gave it to you? And if you can't answer that question, that makes it really challenging. And then I know that you're also focused today on what we're seeing with hospitalizations.

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, to that first point, we've never really had a meaningful contact tracing program in this country. In part it's very challenging if you have got 50,000 people becoming newly infected every day to contact trace that many people. So that's a challenge. But that's exactly right, you don't know where you got it from. People in that nursing home in Kansas, it's not probably clear exactly how the virus entered that nursing home and then spread to every resident. But that's a huge concern.

Hospitalizations I think are a very practical concern. We talk about these dark days, as Dr. Osterholm has mentioned. But what does that mean for people? What is that going to look like? If you look at hospitalizations around the country, we know in 42 states they are increasing. In 14 states they are the highest they have been, and I think a dozen more states are getting close to that range. What is that going to mean as we go into these next few months? I know the hospitals where I work here in Atlanta, some are close to 80, 85 percent even occupied, and we haven't really started to have significant flu of coronavirus upticks in these places yet. That's going to happen.

So are we going to run into a situation where we need field hospitals again? Are buildings, conference centers, are they going to be turned into emergency overflow areas? I don't know. That's the sort of planning that's going on right now, which is really sad. It's the same sort of discussion we had back in April, we're needing to have that discussion again.

BERMAN: Sanjay just asked what does it mean for us. And Professor Osterholm, my wife and I both listen to your podcast religiously, and you speak to people in ways that lets them know what they have to do, nuts and bolts of what they have to do. The director of the NIH, Francis Collins, just this morning, much like Dr. Anthony Fauci, who said we're going to have to bite the bullet on Thanksgiving, Dr. Francis Collins says he did bite the bullet on Thanksgiving. He says, quote, I had to have a family Zoom call with my family on Sunday and conclude that for the first time in 27 years there will be no family Thanksgiving. He says, it's just not safe. What's your feeling on this? What do people need to know about Thanksgiving?

OSTERHOLM: This is our COVID year. We have to keep remembering that. It's not going to be like last year, and hopefully it won't be like next year. Hopefully the vaccines will help make that a different situation. But if you really love someone, the last thing you're going to want to do this year is put them into harm's way by bringing the virus into the home. I have to tell you personally, I know of far too many situations where young, healthy adults, not realizing they were infected, came home for some kind of an event, and three weeks later mom or dad, or grandpa or grandma, or uncle Bill and aunt Sue were dead. That's the kind of thing that we have to help people understand the reality.

And that's where leadership comes from. This isn't about the science anymore. We have enough in the science to say this virus is out there and it's moving. What we have to do is help people understand, how can you reduce your risk, but more importantly, how can you also help reduce the risk the others? And I think that's going to be a very key point of our messaging about the holidays over the weeks ahead.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Osterholm, as John knows, it's hard for me to accept that about Thanksgiving, just like every other American. I love it. It's my favorite meal of the year. And so are you saying that even if we had a lot of ventilation and kept the windows open or ate outside with a heater, that we wouldn't be able to see the grandparents?

OSTERHOLM: Transmission of this virus is all about breathing somebody else's air, that they in fact had the virus and exhaled that out. Far too often in home setting like this, particularly with colder weather, you just can't eliminate that risk. It's just too hard inside a home. So you have to then begin to look at yourself and say, what can I do? The one thing you can do is avoid the risk. And anything short of that is playing with fire.

And I know that's hard for people to hear, but you know what's even harder is to find out that your mom or dad just died from coronavirus infection because of something you brought home. I have personally seen that happening. So I think that's the message we want to get across people.

[08:15:02]

And again, I just emphasize, this is our COVID year. It's this year. OK?

We have to sacrifice for this year. And then by next year, hopefully, these vaccines will get us out of this situation. But in the meantime, this is the kind of message we have to get across if we're, in fact, not to see this happen.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: He's really giving me some strong medicine there, isn't he?

Dr. Osterholm, thank you. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, as always, thank you very much.

OSTERHOLM: Thank you.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: All right. Today is the date that Nancy Pelosi said will be a deadline to reach some kind of deal on a relief package, a stimulus package before the November 3rd final Election Day. We are going to ask a member of House leadership where the negotiations stand at this minute, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says today is the last possible day for a stimulus deal in order to have a vote happen before Election Day.

So is it going to happen today?

CNN's Manu Raju is live on Capitol Hill with the latest.

What is the latest, Manu?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, both sides are still skeptical that a deal can be reached that would allow a bill to be passed before the election. There are just so many differences the two sides have to narrow in order to get to that point. While they moved closer on the price tag, Nancy Pelosi has been pushing for $2.2 trillion now they're talking something in the $2 trillion range.

[08:20:03]

There's a whole wide range of differences once you start getting into the details, whether it's for state and local governments, whether it's wide range tax provisions, whether it's money for testing, COVID testing, and contact tracing. Those are differences they tried to resolve over the last days.

Behind the scenes, staff has been sitting down to resolve those issues. They've gotten close in some areas. Other areas, they have not.

But Nancy Pelosi wants to a point where they believe they can have deal by the end of the night because it has to go through the legislative process and that's going to take in her view be about two weeks time, to get the bill drafted, to go to the relevant committees, to bring it to the floor, all before the election.

And then you have the problem about the Senate Republicans who are in a different place than the Trump administration. Senate Republicans are moving to bring up a bill that has already failed a $500 billion plan. They believe $1.8 trillion to $2 trillion of the administration's proposal right now is just far too much.

Even the number two Republican, Senate Minority Whip John Thune, told me yesterday that will probably be too much for Republicans anything around that $1.8 trillion price range.

So, John, even if a deal is reached between Mnuchin and Pelosi, there's no guarantee that something can pass the Republican-controlled Senate -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Manu Raju for us on Capitol Hill, thank you very much.

So, where do the negotiations stand exactly? Let's get a view from the inside.

We're joined now by House majority whip, Democratic Congressman Jim Clyburn.

Congressman, as always, thank you so much for being with us. You are the number three Democrat in the House. What have you heard

most recently? Where do these talks stand at 8:21 a.m.?

REP. JIM CLYBURN (D-SC): Well, thank you very much for having me.

First of all, I think that the talks are still ongoing. I think there's still an outside chance that something will get done before the elections. But the window is closing. I want to say how much I appreciate Nancy Pelosi.

You know, people keep saying why can't she do a deal? The question got to be, what will be the deal?

You know, I hear all this talk all the time telling me about the new deal or what the new deal did to bring us out of the depression. Well, let me tell you something, I represent counties where the new deal was a raw deal. When you put the new deal program together and then you send all the jobs to the South, CCC, WPA, and you put a little tag on them saying white-only, that may be a new deal for some people but it was a raw deal when it's white-only.

So Nancy Pelosi is trying to stand up for people who are being left out of this deal. Here is an administration that's saying we're going to spend X number of dollars but nothing is going to state and locals. I got 35 small town mayors here in South Carolina that got small police officers, small fire departments, they're about to go under and we can't get this administration to give them any help.

So this is not just about taking care of Donald Trump's people on Wall Street. One of the things in this deal that Nancy Pelosi has turned down was a slush fund for the secretary of the treasury. That's what's going on right now.

BERMAN: There was --

CLYBURN: I would ask the media to look at the Main Street project that we put in the CARES package and ask how much is being spent. That money is not being spent because they're put rules and regulations on it, to make it impossible for the small businesses to use the money.

If the minimum amount of the law that you can get us $250,000, and all I want to do is put on an outside patio on my restaurant, I don't need to borrow $250,000 for that, $45,000 or $50,000 would be I need to do it.

BERMAN: Congressman?

CLYBURN: Yes?

BERMAN: On the subject of state and local aid, there had been movement from the administration side, from the Republican side, not as much as you want in terms of aid to cities and local governments, but they've come up from zero to a number where there would be at least some state and local aid.

And that movement, that something rather than nothing, is an issue we heard about moments ago from former Democratic presidential candidate Andrew Yang.

So, listen to what Andrew Yang just said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW YANG, FORMER 2020 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Mnuchin's last offer that we know of, $1.8 trillion, was really not that far from where Nancy's $2 trillion threshold was. There were some elements of the package they disagree on.

But to the average American family that's hurting right now, we need this relief bill. Every economist agrees.

We have to say yes, when you're in position to do so and put the pressure on Mitch McConnell and the Senate Republicans who are going to approve the stimulus deal because many of them are in very, very close races.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: What's your message to Andrew Yang, Congressman?

CLYBURN: Well, ask him to look inside the package. He's still talking about $1.8 trillion -- $1.8 trillion going where, and to whom?

[08:25:01]

You're still not talking about the inside of the package. You said he's come a little ways, or he's come -- he's doing some, some could be one or two, where there needs to be 15 or 20.

So I don't go for all this top line stuff. Let's look inside the package.

BERMAN: Again, one or two, as you said -- and I don't know where we'll end up -- is still more than nothing. If they do not reach a deal today or even if they extend it to tomorrow, if they don't reach a deal now, when do you think Americans can expect any relief?

CLYBURN: Well, when we change this administration.

BERMAN: So that's January 20th, if you win. That's if you win, that's January 20th.

CLYBURN: Yes.

BERMAN: That's a long time. That's a long time from now, Congressman.

So, you're saying if they don't reach a deal today --

CLYBURN: It was not --

BERMAN: -- Americans have to wait until January 20th?

CLYBURN: It's a long time from June 30th or July 1. So, it's a long time. But, look, I am sick and tired of people telling me, here is all you get, this or nothing. I think that we've got to negotiate. This whole notion is that it's a compromise when you come around to my way of thinking.

And that's what the Republicans said time and time again. Yes, I'm going to compromise and it's a compromise when you come around to my way of thinking. We've got some heads too, we got brains, we can think. That's the problem here. Nobody wants to give us any credit for being able to negotiate.

So Nancy Pelosi is not standing out there by herself. I'm behind her, and a lot of other people in the Congressional Black Caucus are behind her because we are not going to take something just to have something done. We want to get a fair shake out of this.

BERMAN: What are you hearing from members of the Democratic caucus? Your job is to count votes. I know there are some Democrats maybe in more vulnerable districts who are pushing for something maybe more quickly.

What are you hearing from them?

CLYBURN: Well, that's the gamble they're taking. Because there are some Democrats in vulnerable positions, they'll accept anything. Well, that's not going to be the case here.

We are going to do what's fair. That's what we want to see done. And we are not just going to take anything simply because it'll be something.

No, that's not what we're going to do. We want to negotiate from a position of fairness and we want them to come up with a package that's fair to everybody. That's what these people are gambling on. They're gambling on us caving just to get something.

Well, that's almost like having second class citizenship. You got citizenship all right, but it ain't first class citizenship.

BERMAN: Congressman Jim Clyburn, we appreciate your time. We appreciate you letting us know where you stand and where things stand this morning. We'll look forward to seeing you again soon.

CLYBURN: Thank you very much for having me.

BERMAN: Take care.

CLYBURN: So President Trump is telling America not to be afraid of coronavirus. A doctor in a community that voted for him tells us about the fear that he sees in his patients every day. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)