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Trump and Biden Face Off in Final Presidential Debate Tonight; Faulty U.S. COVID-19 Response Meant 130,000 to 210,000 Avoidable Deaths; Senate Judiciary Committee Votes on Barrett's Nomination; U.S. Reports More Than 1,000 Coronavirus Deaths on Wednesday. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired October 22, 2020 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:02]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Very good Thursday morning to you. Twelve days to the election. I'm Jim Sciutto.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Poppy Harlow. We're glad you're here.

Well, it's a big day today. A final debate tonight, a growing health crisis and a consequential Supreme Court vote today. Also fresh attacks on an election that, as Jim said, just 12 days away.

We're following all of it. First, the Senate Judiciary Committee is set to gavel in at any moment and vote to advance the nomination of President Trump's high court pick, Amy Coney Barrett. Republicans pushing ahead despite Democrats' plans to boycott. We're going to take you live to Capitol Hill to see that.

And then tonight the debate. A final face-off between President Trump and former vice president Joe Biden. The nation bracing for a fiery debate despite new rules meant to crack down on interruptions. See if it works. This morning early insight into the president's strategy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALYSSA FARAH, WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS: The topics themselves I'd say he's going to answer those topics, but he's also going to frankly answer the questions he wants to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: All right. All this 12 days before election day and we're learning that Iran and Russia are actively interfering in the 2020 election. Both countries have obtained, and this is key, U.S. voter registration information. And U.S. officials are linking Iran in particular to threatening e-mails sent to voters warning them if they don't vote for Trump they're in trouble. We have the latest on that.

And this, a health crisis gripping the nation and getting worse, a new report has slammed the administration's response to the pandemic, saying that that response has led to somewhere between 130,000 and 210,000 deaths that could have been avoided. At least 31 states now seeing a rise in cases and new infections right now.

We begin with CNN's Jessica Dean on tonight's final presidential debate.

Tell us what the two candidates are hoping to accomplish tonight.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim and Poppy, as you guys mentioned, there are going to be some rule changes. I'll walk you through those really quickly so we all know what to expect from that this evening. Each candidate is going to be given two minutes of what they're calling uninterrupted time to talk about the subjects at the beginning of each segment. And at that time the opposing candidate's microphone will be turned off.

Now after the two-minute remarks there will be a period of what they're calling open discussion. At this point the microphones will be on so we can only imagine how that will go. The topics, again, just to remind everyone what the topics will be tonight, fighting COVID-19, American families, race in America, climate change, national security and leadership. And you can imagine that all of those topics you all just talked about, including these new reports about election interference, will likely be talked about on that debate stage behind me tonight.

As for the two candidates themselves, you heard a little bit from President Trump's adviser there about what they're anticipating for tonight. We also know that his advisers have counseled him and told him that this is likely the last time that he can change people's fundamental view of his behavior, especially women and senior voters. Those are key demographics that he's losing ground to, to Biden, where Biden is really making up a lot of ground.

They've also told President Trump to cool it down, to not come in as hot as we saw him at that last debate, and he's indicated he wants to do that, but will push back. As for Vice President Biden, guys, we know that he is anticipating personal attacks against himself, against his family, but we can anticipate that as we saw last time they want to be talking -- that Biden really wants to be talking directly to American voters. They want to keep bringing this back to issues. Two key issues they want to keep talking about, the coronavirus pandemic and the economy.

HARLOW: OK. Jess, thanks for the reporting. Big, big night ahead.

So let's bring in John Avalon, CNN senior political analyst, and Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for "USA Today," who might know a thing or two about the pressure of a day like this.

Susan, I bet you're happy that your evening may include sitting on the couch and watching this instead of having to moderate it, which you did a great job at. So what would you ask tonight, Susan, if you were doing this one?

SUSAN PAGE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "USA TODAY": You know, I think this is the coronavirus campaign. It is all about the health effects that we're seeing across the country, the spike in cases, the economic repercussions, and also what it tells us about presidential leadership in response to this pandemic. I think that is the issue. When we talk to voters those are the issues that they raise with us.

SCIUTTO: To that point, Susan and John, the former president, Barack Obama, unleashed you might say on the campaign trail yesterday and he spoke to this issue of the COVID response. I want to play that sound and get your reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, 44TH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We literally left this White House a pandemic playbook that would have shown them how to respond before the virus reached our shores.

[09:05:02]

They probably used it to, I don't know, prop up a wobbly table somewhere. We don't know where that playbook went.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Now what he said is true, that there was a plan and largely set aside. I just wonder will Biden -- I mean, will his focus or his attempted focus be on COVID tonight?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. I mean, I think there's no question about that. I mean, we've got a brand-new study out this morning saying that the government's, the president's botched response led to many, many, many more deaths, which accounts for the difference we've seen between most other industrialized nations in the United States.

This is a crisis that the president did not create, but he compounded through his own denial and unwillingness to rely on scientists and best practices, including that pandemic playbook. This is a problem that had been identified and focused on by the federal government going back to George W. Bush.

And so, of course, Joe Biden will hammer that home and we'll see how specific he gets, but this is the issue number one, as Susan said. No question about it.

HARLOW: John, we know from Alyssa Farah at the White House that the president is going to find a way even if he is not asked about it to bring up China and bring up one of Joe Biden's sons, that is Hunter Biden.

AVLON: Yes.

HARLOW: And the reason I ask this is because listen to how President Obama in that speech in Philadelphia yesterday addressed the issue of China and then I want to get your reaction on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA: Listen, can you imagine if I had had a secret Chinese bank account when I was running for reelection? Do you think -- do you think -- do you think FOX News might have been a little concerned about that? They would have called me Beijing Barry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So he did it with a smile and humor and I wonder if you think that's the way that Joe Biden should respond tonight.

AVLON: Look, you should always be a happy warrior and Biden is going to be a lot more effective at joking -- using humor as opposed to being a scold. But these are serious fundamental issues. I mean, obviously Trump is going to try to trigger him by going after his only surviving son, but he should push back by pointing out just that story because it hasn't gotten nearly enough pickup, and entirely ignored in conservative media that President Trump has got a secret Beijing bank account. And he had it during the last election. He's paid more taxes to China than to the United States. These aren't hard difficult things to point out that matter.

SCIUTTO: Susan, the former vice president needs to -- listen, the president is going to push the issue of Hunter Biden attempted business deals in China, e-mails, et cetera. The president is going to push it probably more than once. I know there's been some debate in the Biden camp as to how to respond to that. I imagine they have to. And what should that answer be?

PAGE: We know that they've been talking about really not just in connection with this last debate, about how to respond to the accusations about Hunter Biden and this is, I think, the issue that Joe Biden has struggled the most to address because it does get under his skin. The issue of his family. It's not one that you can handle with humor.

What he has declined to do, which some of his supporters wish he would do, is turn it around and talk about the president's children and their business interest. He's been unwilling to do that. It's a test for Biden. Can President Trump get him off his stride by raising the issue of his son and that is something we certainly should be looking for tonight.

AVLON: Yes, and look, we got a preview of that in the last debate and what Joe Biden did was talk about his love for his son and his struggles with addiction, which was kind of a judo move that was very empathetic and relatable.

You know, Lyndon Johnson, I think, is credited with an old line that said, you know, the problem with a pig is that you get dirty and the pig likes it. And that's always the danger of getting in the dirt with some of these debates.

HARLOW: Hey, guys, interesting that Joe Biden appears to trying to put the question of court packing and whether he'd support it or not if elected to bed in the "60 Minutes" interview. He doesn't totally directly address court packing, it's more about Supreme Court reform, but listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: If elected, what I will do is I will put together a national commission of bipartisan commission of scholars, constitutional scholars, Democrats and Republicans, liberal, conservative. And I will ask them to over 180 days come back to me with recommendations as to how to reform the court system because it's getting out of whack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Does he put it to bed, Susan Page, or if, again, you were the debate moderator, would you say, can you clarify if that means you would support packing the court?

PAGE: You know, it's clear that Joe Biden's instinct is not to expand the size of the Supreme Court. He has said that.

HARLOW: Yes.

PAGE: He said that as recently as the last couple of days, but that's not good with his progressive supporters who very much are angry about what's happened with the membership on the Supreme Court and want to take some action.

[09:10:05]

But a commission? Really? A bipartisan commission over 180 days is the way to avoid coming down with a conclusion, not to get to one.

AVLON: Certainly that's been the Washington experience and I give Susan all the reasons in the world to be cynical about that, but I think the keyword is bipartisan and the fact he doesn't talk just about the Supreme Court. He's trying to deal with the politicization of our courts in a way that doesn't compound the problem. And I think that's significance he was saying.

SCIUTTO: No question. Listen, we'll be watching tonight. There are a lot of unanswered questions that need to be answered. That's why we have debates.

Susan Page, John Avlon, thanks very much.

AVLON: Thank you, guys.

HARLOW: Well, this morning a damning new report. It takes aim at the Trump administration's response to the COVID pandemic and here is what it says. Up to 210,000 lives could have been spared in the United States if -- globally, rather, if officials had acted sooner.

Today the FDA is holding a meeting with vaccine advisers as the director of the National Institutes of Health says a vaccine could be available in the next few months. Also right now only one state is seeing a drop in new cases in the U.S. 62,000 new infections were recorded in this country yesterday and at least 1100 Americans died. We are so glad on these headlines that Mike Osterholm is here,

director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.

Good morning to you. It's very good to have you here. That report, let's just start there --

DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE POLICY, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA: Good morning, Poppy.

HARLOW: -- if we could. The report that I just mentioned about up to 210,000 additional deaths that could have been prevented, it comes from Columbia University. And I know we can't move back, but given that you've said the next six to 12 weeks could be the darkest of this pandemic, what should we as a nation and our these leaders in power in this take from this report and try to change in the next three months?

OSTERHOLM: Well, you've really hit the question right on the head. This is what we need to look forward to and say, OK, what we've done so far has not been all that successful and we will see this big surge of cases. We know how to reduce the risk of this virus transmission. Just look at the Asian countries that basically have it largely under control and whose economies are coming back, but it takes inspired leadership.

We need to do is explain to people why we don't want them to go to bars and restaurants right now, why we don't want them going to public spaces --

HARLOW: Michael --

(CROSSTALK)

OSTERHOLM: Yes.

HARLOW: I'm sorry to interrupt. Stand by. I'm going to take everyone to Capitol Hill. What you're seeing play out here on the floor of the Senate is a consequential moment. It is the Senate Judiciary Committee voting on the nomination of Supreme Court -- soon to be Supreme Court justice, Amy Coney Barrett, which we believe none of the Democrats have showed up for this. Let's listen in.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Senator Cornyn.

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): Mr. Chairman, I'll just take a couple of minutes. I just find this to be a surreal environment we're in where our Democratic colleagues announced yesterday they're going to boycott one of the most important votes this committee will have probably during our entire Senatorial tenure, and that is a vote to confirm, provide advice and consent to a nominee for the Supreme Court of the United States.

But I just want to comment on the pictures that are in their chairs like this is some sort of sporting event during COVID-19, and rather than show up and do their job, they choose to continue the theater that was part of the hearing. And of course, this is all pretextual. Their argument as I understand

it is somehow Amy Coney Barrett will violate her oath of office, contrary to everything she has done and who she is, and somehow that the Affordable Care Act is in jeopardy. She explained, I think, with great skill, the issue before the Supreme Court, it's really one of severability, which is a very technical doctrine. It doesn't have anything to do with the merits of the Affordable Care Act. It has to do whether you can sever the --

HARLOW: OK. So let me bring in our expert on this, Sunlen Serfaty, who joins us on the Hill.

Sunlen, can you explain to our viewers what's happening right now? Sunlen, can you hear me? OK, Sunlen --

SCIUTTO: As we wait for Sunlen, just a note about the photos that you see there and that Senator Cornyn was referring to. Those are pictures of people who -- Democratic members of the Judiciary Committee say are affected by the Affordable Care Act, Obamacare. Of course, their focus in these hearings has been if you confirm Judge Barrett that she will be the swing vote that might overturn Obamacare.

[09:15:00]

And that's the origin of those pictures that they put up in their seats. Senator Cornyn said it was like a sporting match, but that's the back story as to why those --

HARLOW: Yes --

SCIUTTO: Photos are there.

HARLOW: Though, it's very important, I know -- and Jim, as you rightly -- no, I mean, they're going to hear that case on November 10th, so really soon. We now have Sunlen Serfaty with us. Sunlen, there is a rule that says you need at least two members of the minority party to make this vote happen --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

HARLOW: Rule 26, something like that, but there is no member -- there are no Democratic members of Judiciary there right now, but the vote is still going to go through?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The vote is going to go through, Poppy. A little complex procedure, first and foremost. The committee rules do say that two minority members, two Democrats on the committee must be present in addition to nine other members on the committee in order to -- for this to move forward.

That is what Democrats are arguing that they need two members, two Democrats, to push this forward. But there is a Senate rule, it's called Rule 26, and that Republicans argue supersedes the committee rule.

SCIUTTO: Right -- SERFATY: And that rule says that you just need to have a majority of

committee members. So here, that's what Republicans are saying. Now, we have 12 people here, we have a majority here, and that's why they are pushing this through today --

SCIUTTO: Right --

SERFATY: Advancing her nomination, advancing it to the full Senate floor. And I just want to take a step back --

SCIUTTO: And, Sunlen --

SERFATY: Of course, and note that --

SCIUTTO: Just a --

SERFATY: You know --

SCIUTTO: Just a brief note, Sunlen, because, you may not know this, but they have advanced her nomination --

SERFATY: Right --

SCIUTTO: In a vote of 12-0 here --

SERFATY: Twelve-to-zero --

SCIUTTO: All Republicans of course. So Judge Amy Coney Barrett, the nominee for the Supreme Court, she has now --her nomination has now advanced to the full Senate. Sorry to interrupt you, but I just wanted to give that update.

SERFATY: Absolutely. An important advancement here of course, and Senate Majority leader Mitch McConnell has already set up a Monday vote for her final confirmation, and she is expected to be confirmed in front of the full Senate on Monday, by next week. And importantly, as Republicans' goal before the election day.

And I just want to again take a moment to step back and say this wide shot of the room, that's the image that Democrats wanted of this morning. In effect their last protest, this boycott of the committee room, seeing these large posters, 2 feet by 3 feet approximately across --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

SERFATY: Of people who had been affected by the ACA, men, women and children. This is what they have made these committee hearings about. The Affordable Care Act, what would happen if Amy Coney Barrett becomes the next Supreme Court justice, what that means for your healthcare. And this is the picture the Democrats wanted.

Now, I should say the other side of that strategy is the fact that they let the chairman of the committee, Lindsey Graham, of course, lead off this hearing, speak for I think it was 13 minutes before they voted through 12-0, her confirmation, voted through to the Senate floor.

And in that -- right off the bat, he talked about the fact that Democrats had decided to do this boycott. He said this was their choice, I'm not going to allow them to take over the committee, they made the choice today not to participate.

SCIUTTO: Yes --

SERFATY: So Democrats will be holding a press conference later on Capitol Hill, but again, not showing up for the committee today --

HARLOW: Yes --

SCIUTTO: Well, we should note that Lindsey Graham did say a number of months ago, he would not bring up a nominee so close to an election if he were chairman, of course --

HARLOW: Yes --

SCIUTTO: He did, and of course going back to 2016, that didn't happen when a Democrat was the president. Just to remember the history here, the recent history as we follow this.

HARLOW: Yes, I'm smiling because that was then and this is now, right, Jim?

SCIUTTO: Yes --

HARLOW: And he's also in the middle of a really tough race to hold on to his seat. And I would just note for our viewers before we move on. Remember that this judge will fill as a justice the seat of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the late Justice Ginsburg, who was confirmed almost unanimously, right, and those were very different times. Thank you, Sunlen, for explaining it all. So, we're going to get back to Michael Osterholm on COVID right after the break. Jim.

SCIUTTO: Also this hour, the nation's top national security officials say that Russia and Iran are interfering in the 2020 election. How are they doing it? How far does it go? We're going to speak to someone who has been briefed on the intelligence.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:20:00]

HARLOW: OK, back with us now is Michael Osterholm; director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. Thank you for standing by. We really wanted to bring --

MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH & POLICY, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA: Thank you --

HARLOW: Our viewers that consequential vote for the Supreme Court on the Senate floor. Let me ask you about children because the American Academy of Pediatrics came out this week and said, in the last two weeks, child COVID cases have jumped 13 percent. A, do you know why? And perhaps more importantly, I understand children likely won't die from COVID, but they go home to their grandparents and their parents or they're with their teachers who might.

OSTERHOLM: Yes, what we have to do first of all is break down the category of kids, and unfortunately, that's a large category. If you look at the cases in children, ten years of age or younger, we have seen only limited transmission, not widespread transmission. We have seen more limited number of cases, and we haven't seen nearly the same evidence of severe illness. When you get into adolescents and into high school, which often are all referred to as kids, we're seeing lots of transmission, and we are seeing --

HARLOW: Yes --

OSTERHOLM: More severe illnesses. So at this point, we really have to distinguish between the two, and I feel more comfortable that we can have grade schools open in many instances and only see limited transmission.

HARLOW: You are the author of a new report that was just out, I just read it this morning, and the big warning in it is that, the COVID pandemic has severely strained the U.S. drug supply chain, not to mention so much of the primary ingredients in those drugs have historically come from China, that's an issue of supply. But does that mean that people who are getting sick with other diseases in this country are going to have increasingly hard access to care and treatment because of COVID?

OSTERHOLM: Absolutely. There's really a -- two different things happening at the same time. One is that we already had a drug supply system, it was severely challenged of 156 life-saving critical drugs we need every day.

[09:25:00]

All are generic, and most were made outside the United States, particularly in countries like China and India, which when they have their own COVID problems, that only makes the manufacturing and supply even more difficult. Now, you add in over 40 drugs that we're using frontlines for treating COVID patients and the surge need for those drugs has meant that, there are again, more shortages.

So the drug area right now is a very important Achilles' heel for us, and we are going to have people who in of themselves will not die necessarily from the disease that we're trying to treat. They're going to die because we don't have the drugs that we need to treat them with.

HARLOW: In America in 2020 --

OSTERHOLM: Yes --

HARLOW: It's an astounding thing. Testing is a big deal, it continues to be a big deal, it's been a big failure point in many respects, especially early on for the U.S. in this. When or are we going to get to a point where that rapid test is as accurate as a PCR deep nasal swab, or is that just not possible? Because I feel like that would make all the difference because then you could test everyone before they went to school, before they got on the plane, before they went to work.

OSTERHOLM: And that's exactly what we need, but we are a long ways from that. I think the White House example pointed that out, that you can't test your way out of this pandemic. You have to really reduce your risk. But it could help. But I think we are a ways away. Not only are we missing people who are really infected with these tests, but unfortunately, we're turning up an increasing number of people who are said to be positive when they're really not, which then causes a whole other series of problems.

So, we need to do so much more in testing and to get better tests readily available, but for the time being right now, we have to just assume that anything that puts us in harm's way in terms of being in crowds with people, that's what we have to count on, the testing --

HARLOW: Yes --

OSTERHOLM: Won't save us there.

HARLOW: Yes, well, we're not going home for the holidays, and I think that is hopefully the story for a lot of folks unfortunately.

OSTERHOLM: That's wise, very wise.

HARLOW: But I want to see the snow that you already have there in Minnesota, Michael, so enjoy it for all of us. Thanks very much.

OSTERHOLM: Thank you very much, Poppy --

HARLOW: For being with us this morning. Jim?

OSTERHOLM: Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Maybe we'll see snow in Washington this year?

HARLOW: Maybe?

SCIUTTO: Still ahead -- well, my kids want to -- they want to sled. Still ahead, top national security officials warn that Russia and Iran are interfering in our election. What that could mean for the next 12 days. We're going to speak to someone briefed on the intelligence, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)