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Cuomo Prime Time
Biden Says Trump Has "Quit On America" With His Mishandling Of Coronavirus Pandemic; U.S. Again Tops 70,000 COVID-19 Cases In Single Day, Trump: "We're Rounding The Corner Beautifully"; Trump Administration Quick To Sanction Iran For Election Interference, But Silent On Russia's Continued Targeting Of 2020 Race. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 23, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: The news continues tonight. Want to hand it over to Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME." Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Have a good weekend, my friend.
I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
More than 50 million votes have already been cast. And we are 11 days out from Election Day. Now, to the extent that a campaign is about making a case, the issue before you, as judges, is whether this President has dealt with the pandemic well enough.
In a short time, we've jumped from 40,000 cases a day to 70,000 new COVID cases a day. The second highest total ever, more than 75,000 new cases recorded just today. The highest peak was in July. 223,000 dead now, projections say that may double by the New Year.
Did you hear this President tell you any of that last night? Why not do you think?
Have you ever heard of a Commander-in-Chief being rewarded at the polls for hiding the reality of a crisis? That's what lost Herbert Hoover, the presidency, to FDR, during The Great Depression. That may be the Republican Trump should compare himself to, Hoover, not Lincoln.
Ignoring the virus does not make it go away. Saying we are rounding the corner is really another way of saying we are merely going in circles.
Biden says he can do better. He says that starts with owning the reality.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: The President still doesn't have a plan. He's given up. He's quit on you. He's quit on your family. He's quit on America.
We can choose a different path. (END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Now, it was interesting. Trump's argument against Biden is not plan for plan. It's damn for damn. "Sure. I may be dirty. I may have a lot of corruption allegations. So does he."
This President sat on that final stage, of a basis of comparison for you, listen to Biden discuss how to do better, and double-down on saying when it comes to the pandemic, Trump has done enough.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: All he talks about is COVID, COVID, COVID because they want to scare people. And we've done so well with it.
We're rounding the corner beautifully.
(CROWD CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Denying the reality, just like Hoover did, during the Depression.
But here's the good news. As painful a lesson as it has been, and will continue to be, the virus is the truth. The President may see us, as Red and Blue, but the virus is pummeling us all the same into this mass of lived purple.
Fact, only one state is showing a downward trend in cases, Oregon. Hit early and hard, closed down, masked up, stayed that way until safe to reopen in safe ways. Lots of money to help communities and schools do just that. Not perfect, but good enough, compared to everybody else.
Why doesn't the President learn from that example? Well maybe it's because the Governor is a Democrat, and learning from it would mean actually making a plan, two things this President apparently hates.
He decided to say instead, "All this bad data, temporary."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're fighting it, and we're fighting it hard. There is a spike. There was a spike in Florida, and it's now gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: You are not fighting it hard. You are trying hard not to fight it. Gone? Temporary? You know who else said that? Not Lincoln, Hoover, about the market crash.
Let me show you the facts. Does this look to you like the spike in Florida is gone? Easy way to read it, red, bad.
The State which does not have a great history with case reporting transparency, in hospitals, or schools, still, just recorded its highest number of daily cases in more than two months. No part of that state is in the clear. Look at it. Look at the number of recent deaths in Florida.
Trump wanted to say "Florida good, New York bad." Well, look at the deaths for deaths, what metric matters more than that, right? Florida's death per day, seven-day trailing average. New York's. OK? It's not even a comparison.
New York is in a better place than Florida. Why? It's taking better steps. But nobody is safe and no state can do it alone. If for no other reason, they don't have the pocket.
Florida is among 15 states that has had a daily positivity rate above 10 percent over the last seven days. So, tell us again, Mr. President, how Coronavirus is gone in Florida, tell us, because you seem to know something that every piece of data denies.
Let's be honest. What is Trump great at? Lying, denying, defying, attacking everything, except the pandemic, why? He has no "How" to do anything.
[21:05:00]
"We can't close," he says. True. How do we stay open? Crickets! "We have to get back to school," he says. True. How? Crickets! How do we get schools the money they need, and the testing, and tracing, for these communities, for ventilation, to change, so that our kids can be safe?
His answer, vaccine. A vaccine that won't be ready for most of us for close to a year?
No plan, no plan to make a plan, and no deal on the table to get any relief to anyone.
And to prove that there is no shame in his game, Trump actually went to sell his "COVID is cornering," to our most vulnerable folks, The Villages in Florida, the nation's largest retirement community.
(VIDEO PLAYS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S RALLY AT THE VILLAGES, FLORIDA)
CUOMO: Look at them. This population, in a maskless crowd, not socially distanced, during the third peak, of a worsening pandemic, in the senior community, seriously?
And not one word from this President about what they should do differently. He knows everything they're doing puts them at risk, and not a word. Why? Because saying nothing about the problem, about the pandemic is better for him, in his mind.
Another example, have you heard him say a word about the veterans that he says he loves, right? "Nobody loves the veterans." Have you heard one word about the huge increase in cases among veterans?
70 percent among V.A. patients, according to the military, in the last month, not a word about their pain, or how to help them, but he loves them. He was put in a position to help. His inaction has inarguably hurt.
So, what about Biden? He says he has a plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: I'll immediately put in place a national strategy that'll position our country to finally get ahead of this virus and get back our lives. I'll reach out to every governor, in every state, Red and Blue.
I'll ask the new Congress to put a bill on my desk by the end of January.
I'll put a national testing plan in place with a goal of testing as many people each day, as we're currently testing each week, a seven- fold increase.
As President, I'll use the full power of the Defense Production Act to drive the manufacturing of personal protective equipment, masks, gloves, gowns and more, and ensure that's distributed equitably.
I promise you we'll get through this, and come out the other side, much faster than the rate we're going now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Now, if you really need a plan, if that's what matters to you that the pandemic response is inadequate, you want to see better, Biden may win.
But Trump may win as well. Why? Because of his inability to lead in this pandemic, and all the trumpery that has gone along with it, is in fact trumped by his perceived value as an advocate for widespread animus toward politics and culture in this country, he wins.
Remember, the only song you've ever heard about loving Herbert Hoover was sung by who? Archie Bunker. "Mister, we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again. Didn't need no welfare state. Everybody pulled his weight," Archie Bunker.
Hence the sell of MAGA, going back to times that White working-class people may have liked better and felt safer. Which will win out? That is the proposition that will decide this election.
Let discuss. Let's take it to two sides of the political equation, Van Jones, and Charlie Dent, one rule, nothing about my singing.
Charlie Dent, in terms of the proposition - well first, let me get you out of the way. Is it true that Biden is scrubbing you for a role in his Administration?
CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, (R) FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Well, I think that was just some speculation in Politico. I have not had any conversations with anybody in the Biden campaign or
transition, none. They have not contacted me. So, I'm not angling to get back in the government. I read that in the press, just as you did, Chris.
CUOMO: All right.
DENT: Will be not much to it.
CUOMO: Appreciate you answering the question.
So Trump's move, "Forget about the pandemic, we're rounding the corner. It's just a scare tactic. We're going to get back. Everything's going to be great. And don't listen to these Republicans. They're a bunch of pansies. I'll get you what I need."
Do you think it's enough for him to win?
DENT: You mean, by diminishing the pandemic?
CUOMO: Yes.
DENT: Of course not. I mean, of course not. I mean, it seems to me the President's numbers are slipping in large measure with seniors because of his response to the pandemic.
Seniors are the most vulnerable at-risk population, and they're the most fearful, at least based on my experience, they're the most fearful. And the President has been very cavalier in his response.
That stunt he pulled at Walter Reed, with that little drive-by, while he was admitted, and then coming to the White House, taking the mask off, I mean I think people believe that he's just not taking this seriously enough.
CUOMO: But did you see him at The Villages in Florida?
DENT: And it's really--
CUOMO: All those old people in a state that matters as much as any, crowded together for him.
[21:10:00]
DENT: Well yes, you ought to talk to my mother-in-law. I know a lot of - I guess I get with lot of them, senior citizens, with whom I speak. They tend to be very careful. They're the ones who are most likely to social-distance, and avoid meeting with people in crowds. That's my experience with seniors.
So, I'm just - look, his numbers are plummeting among seniors. I do think this pandemic response is a significant reason why.
CUOMO: His answer to Biden, Van, is "He's a bum. He's dirty. And, by the way, he's not going to get it done for you, and he hates oil."
DENT: Well--
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, it's--
CUOMO: Hold on - I got you Charlie. Let Van get in here. Go ahead, Van.
JONES: It's remarkable to see a U.S. President, standing on a graveyard of a quarter million Americans, and you ask him, "Do you have any regrets looking back?" And he says "No, no regrets looking back," a quarter million Americans dead.
And then, you ask him, "What's your healthcare plan moving forward?" He goes "It's a great healthcare plan." "But what is it?"
So, you have no regrets looking back, and you have no plan going forward. So, what is your argument for yourself? You don't like Joe Biden's son. That's not enough to get you re-elected in a country that expects at least competence.
Listen, we can - we can have our tribal issues, and our differences, and we can bicker and we can fight. But it used to be the case that if you had 3,000 Americans dead, 9/11, the entire country came together, to figure out what to do about it.
We have two 9/11s every week, every week, and growing. And this President still cannot bring us together. And so, it's a pass/fail, at this point, and this President has clearly failed.
CUOMO: Well look, what's the difference between 9/11 and the pandemic? Everything, culturally, also, common enemy that's identifiable, and feared by all.
Do you think Biden has made the case that all Americans need to come together at all, let alone to fight this pandemic, Van?
JONES: Well he's making the case. He's trying to make the case. He's trying to be heard.
I don't think anybody doubts that under a Biden Administration, there would be less rancor, and chaos, and crazy, and foolishness, and shenanigans, and nonsense going on. And I think, right now, you got a lot of people, who they're just - people are just tired. They're exhausted.
And Biden, sometimes, seems like he wants to be Captain Quarantine, and he has to be clear that he's talking about a safe reopening, not a permanent shutting down. He makes a mistake sometimes, of defending masks more than he talks about how he's going to get everybody's kids out of our houses and back to school.
But I think nobody, watching those two guys last night, could come away thinking that Joe Biden is somebody who wants to divide America.
CUOMO: Ordinarily, the insurgent, Charlie, would be pushing anger and fear, right? "Look at this pandemic. Look what you did to the economy. Look what you're doing to the rest of us." But ironically, it's Trump pushing it, even though he's the one with the record and with the mandate to be doing something about it.
Listen to what he said about Biden's running mate. If there were any question about what Senator Perdue was up to, the other day, when they said, "Oh, he just mispronounced her name," listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Biden's running mate, the most liberal member of the United States Senate, and, by the way, Kamala will not be your first female president.
(CROWD BOOS)
TRUMP: She will not be your first female president.
We're not supposed to have the socialist - look, we're not going to be a socialist nation. We're not going to have a socialist president, especially a female socialist president. We're not going to have it. We're not going to put up with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Only thing worse than a socialist, Charlie, is a female socialist, who happens to be Brown with a weird name. She might as well be the female version of that "Hussein Obama" guy.
DENT: Yes. Look, those comments are disrespectful and insulting. There's really no place for it. The President doesn't have the capacity to differentiate himself with Joe Biden and Kamala Harris on policy. He's simply incapable of articulating the argument.
I mean many of us watched that debate, last night, and we said, "Hey," we celebrated, we said, "Hey, the President seemed semi-normal last night. The bar was low."
And - but he really doesn't have the capacity to debate policy. He just doesn't - he just doesn't have enough of a substantive view of the world to make the arguments. That's always been the problem. That's why he resorts to these types of ad hominem attacks, name- calling, insults.
CUOMO: Yes, and because it works.
DENT: That's--
CUOMO: Especially in a culture where people have opposition as the mandate, and disdain as the mode.
[21:15:00]
Van, he didn't make a mistake about Ka-mala, instead of Kamala. "Weird name, weird color, women, women socialists, all bad," not down with what we used to know and love and feel safe with, Van. He's saying it on purpose.
It's not style. It's not, not being a politician. It's being both. That is his style. And he's the ultimate politician. Will it work?
JONES: It is working for his core base. They love that stuff. They understand that he is giving the middle finger to what I was taught are basic norms and values. Now, it's called "Being PC."
It'd be respectful of people, to not offend people, for no reason in the world. That was basically how I was raised, and how pretty much everybody else was raised. Now, they've relabeled basic manners and decorum as "PC," and then they can throw these little barbs around.
They think it's cute. They think it's funny. People are watching. People are watching. There are a lot of people that wish they could be a part of the conservative movement. There are a lot of people of color who are quite conservative. They are business owners. They are people of faith. They cannot be a part of this movement.
He is chasing away people who would otherwise appreciate some of the things he's done, on criminal justice, and in many other things, Opportunity Zones. People can't hold their nose, though, for that kind of stuff.
Whatever good deeds he's done, which he likes to brag on, his bad words overwhelm those deeds, over and over and over again. And people are watching. And he's paying a price he may not know.
CUOMO: We'll see. Van Jones, Charlie Dent, thank you both, good health, happy heads to both of you, be well.
All right, least--
DENT: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: --"Least racist guy in the room. This Ka-mala," ooh, yes "Least racist." Why did you say it that way? Come on!
How do we get jobs back if we keep going backwards with this virus? How big a task do we have? What does recovery look like? Economics connected to the pandemic, someone who knows the intricate tie, Tom Friedman.
On a Friday night, what could be better? Scotch!
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CUOMO: After last night's debate, who was ahead on what is usually the biggest issue in an election, the economy? Trump. But he gets crushed on the pandemic. Why aren't the two seen as umbilically inextricably linked? Because if you don't deal with the pandemic, you can't get the economy back, which has gotten crushed, by the pandemic.
This is a connection that "New York Times" Columnist Tom Friedman knows well, also, best-selling book, "From Beirut to Jerusalem," very important about the future of our foreign relations.
Tom, good to see you, on a Friday night. Why don't people score the economy as a function of the pandemic?
TOM FRIEDMAN, FOREIGN AFFAIRS COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES, AUTHOR, "FROM BEIRUT TO JERUSALEM": Well, people do, at some level, realize that the pandemic was something of a meteor that landed on us. So, I think they're giving the President some running room there.
And maybe Biden could be a little more energetic, exciting about painting the kind of future that a Biden Administration would bring to us, in terms of the kind of investments, in infrastructure, in clean energy that might get people a little bit more excited.
Biden's also working with the legacy of the Democratic campaign that he had to deal with, from people to his left. So Trump's got a little bit of running room over there. But that can change very quickly.
CUOMO: But duration is what's been killing us with the virus. I mean, this has been going on since February. And even though he's had plenty of time to do something about it, he hasn't. And that's what kept people from being able to reopen, and that's what crushed the economy.
FRIEDMAN: Well Chris, I think this is the central, I would say, dishonesty of Trump.
It's not mask or jobs. It's not social distancing or Big Ten football. It's masks for jobs. It's social distancing, so you can open restaurants, do some outdoor function, do some collective functions.
The crazy thing about the President is that if he actually adopted some of the just basic health measures that are working everywhere in the world, rather than spurning them as politically incorrect, they would actually enhance the economy. That's what's so crazy about it.
A mask is not a cultural marker. A mask is a mask. And masks allow you to have more jobs, more activity. And spurning those is what is so crazy about the whole thing.
CUOMO: See whether or not it works.
The idea of what was gained and lost in advantage, last night, Biden was called to the carpet about two things, saying, "Yes, I'm going to get rid of oil," and, two, "Yes, no, I never said I was against fracking," and then they say, "Yes, you said that fracking wouldn't have any part of your future to Dana Bash," so he got caught on that. You see those as not weaknesses for Biden but missed opportunities. How so?
FRIEDMAN: Well Chris, I wish Biden would have turned to the President, and said, "Mr. President, since you're a stable genius, as you've told us, could you tell me the four leading wind generation states in America, because they're actually called Texas, Iowa, Oklahoma and Kansas, four Red states." You know why, Chris? Because they're in transition.
"Mr. President, could you tell me which major company was thrown out of the Dow last year and replaced by Salesforce? It's called Exxon Mobil, because they're in transition."
[21:25:00]
"Mr. President, do you know that there are 10 times more people working in the clean green energy industries in America today than in coal, oil and natural gas? Because these companies are in transition."
"Mr. President, did you know that 72 percent of the new electricity generation worldwide, in 2019, came from renewables? Because they're in transition."
"Guess what, Mr. President? The Stone Age didn't end because we ran out of stones. It ended because we invented metal tools."
And the Oil Age isn't going to end because we run out of oil. It's going to end because we invent renewables in the countries that are going to win that race, Chris, "Are the ones who are already in transition, Mr. President."
CUOMO: But you know what scares about that message is what about--
FRIEDMAN: You--
CUOMO: --what about the workers now, Tom.
You remember Pop had that line about the thick-fingered laborer, like his father, whose fingers were not suited to the nimbleness of a keyboard. They feel they're going to be left behind. Trump is playing to that.
FRIEDMAN: Oh, I'm not talking about - I'm not talking about computer jobs. I'm talking about making every federal building energy- efficient. Those are thick-fingered jobs. Building electric vehicles, those are thick-finger jobs. Installing solar panels, those are thick- finger jobs.
There are 10 times more people working in renewable energy with thick fingers today, Chris, than there are in fossil fuels.
It's already - the argument is over. The industry is in transition, and the companies that aren't are the ones that are going to go the way of the Stone Age. And we should - Democrats should want to own this. We, as a country, should want to own this. I don't want to go from importing oil from the Middle East, to
importing clean energy efficiency tools from China, and miss the whole thing, because we are not in transition, because we have a president who is so wedded to the Stone Age, he wants to go down with oil. And I don't care to go with him.
CUOMO: Tom Friedman, incisive and appreciated. Thank you very much, brother. Be well, best to you and the family.
FRIEDMAN: Thanks, Chris, appreciate it.
CUOMO: All right, what is happening with the interference factor in this election?
We all got spooked the other night. They came out and gave us an unusual presser, during an election, from the Intel people, unusually timed to the day that Obama came out and gave that thumping to Trump.
If Russia and Iran are actively meddling with this vote, right now, as the Trump Administration says, but he is so quiet, how do we protect it? What are they doing? What should be done?
A valuable voice, former CII - CIA Director, John Brennan, is here, on a Friday night, next.
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CUOMO: Boy, we were all there at night together, right, the sudden presser, the FBI and DNI commanding attention on the same day that former president Obama opened a can of whoop-ass on Trump. But then, they didn't agree on the interference threat.
And what's the point? Is it to help or hurt Trump? They gave us different versions. They gave us proof of emails that certainly would help Trump but not proof of anybody trying to hurt him.
Then what happens? They rush out sanctions, against Iran, for "Executing malign influence operations aimed at misleading U.S. voters."
OK, what about Russia? Nothing about that, despite the FBI Director saying Russia is stealing voter information right now, and saying this more than a month ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTOPHER WRAY, FBI DIRECTOR: Russia continues to try to influence our elections, primarily through what we would call malign foreign influence.
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CUOMO: Well, they're waiting. They're going to hit Russia - no, they did hit Russia.
On Monday, they charged, the Department of Justice, six Russian GRU, it's like their spy operation officers, with malware attacks, including targeting of French elections, and the 2018 Olympics.
And today, the Treasury Department sanctioned Russia as a government institution for malware attacks in the Middle East, but nothing to do with what they're doing here. Why?
Let's talk threat assessment and action with former CIA Director, John Brennan. He has a new book. "Undaunted: My Fight Against America's Enemies, At Home and Abroad."
And as part and parcel of that work, for this country, and thank you for your service, and welcome to PRIME TIME, would be dealing with Russia. What are we supposed to believe about this threat, Director that it was to help Trump or hurt Trump? They only gave us proof of one. The FBI and the DNI seem to have different stories.
JOHN BRENNAN, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR, AUTHOR, "UNDAUNTED": Well Chris, I really wish that the Director of National Intelligence, John Ratcliffe, had more credibility at this point, because I think the American people really need to know and deserve to know what the nature of the threat is to our upcoming election.
And unfortunately, John Ratcliffe has demonstrated time and again that he has politicized his position by doing things in support of Donald Trump.
And so, that press statement, the other night, when both John Ratcliffe and Chris Wray, came out, it was rather puzzling, especially since John Ratcliffe led off with Iran.
And although Iran does have a cyber-capability, has no doubt about that, Russia has much more sophisticated capabilities, and its presence in social media, which is the vector that it uses, to influence attitudes, sentiments, and votes, its presence has much more pervasive, insidious and damaging than Iran's.
CUOMO: Why move on Iran and not Russia?
BRENNAN: Well, I think it's because Donald Trump really is hoping that the Russians are going to continue to help him win this coming election the way they helped him last time. It is clear that the Russians favor Trump, as they did in 2016. But Iran has been the target of much of Trump's wrath.
[21:35:00]
And, again, this is part of a distraction, as he highlights the Iranian threat, and really tends to downplay the Russian threat, which is what Ratcliffe did the other day. He said that Iran was trying to hurt Trump, but he didn't say at all what the Russian efforts and intentions are.
CUOMO: Not to be cynical, but what do they need to interfere with this, in terms of the narrative they're pushing, when the President says the same thing? "The system is rigged. I don't think the count's going to be fair. Proud Boys, stand by, you know, stand ready," whatever that subtle - not-so-subtle message was.
What do they need to get involved for? He's making more damage than they could.
BRENNAN: Well, I think you're right. But that doesn't mean that they're not going to try to augment his efforts, and amplify a lot of his messaging, including about fraudulent election.
But the Russians really have been on social media, and misrepresent themselves as American citizens, as American entities. And again, they're trying to ensure that Trump's message is getting out far and wide.
And if they are navigating it to some of the state electoral systems, it really does raise the concerns, once again, as we had in 2016 that they might try to do something, on a technical front, like on the day of election that could cause some chaos, and havoc at election booth by, for example, bringing down voter registration rolls.
But I do think they make their money, the Russians, mostly on the influence operations, what Chris Wray refers to, as malign operations, and that is in the social media environment.
CUOMO: So, what is your thought of our state of readiness for what might happen after the election, especially immediately after, in terms of threat profile? And what is your take on the efforts that have been made, by this government, to protect the system, from any such activities?
BRENNAN: Well I'm sure my former colleagues, in the Intelligence Community, and Law Enforcement, and Homeland Security are doing their level best to try to prevent the Russians, Iranians, anybody from interfering in the election, whether it be foreign or domestic.
However, as we've seen what Donald Trump is doing, he is fueling the polarization within our country. He is egging on those elements that tend to be rather extremist, those, on the Right.
And I really am concerned what he may do in the lead-up to the election, but then, in the aftermath, if he believes that he's not going to be re-elected. The powers of a president are enormous, and he clearly is not abiding by the norms and standards of former presidents. And so, therefore, I really do worry about what he might do, and what tactic he might engage in, in order to try to preserve his presence in the White House.
CUOMO: John Brennan, the book is called "Undaunted: My Fight Against America's Enemies, At Home and Abroad."
People often say, "Boy, it's weird that nobody has attacked us, thank god." It's not weird. It's not an accident. Read the book. And you will see what goes into keeping this country safe.
And, once again, Sir, it's a rare pleasure to have you on this show, and thank you for your service to the country. Be well, you and the family.
BRENNAN: Thank you so much, Chris.
CUOMO: All right, be well.
BRENNAN: Thank you for having me.
CUOMO: Now, let's turn from the threat to the search for a real governmental response, not just in terms of interference, but in terms of interference with getting some relief to so many, who are hurting from this pandemic.
Two topics, one Senator, Angus King, of Maine.
Good to see you, Sir.
SEN. ANGUS KING (I-ME): Yes, Sir. Good to be with you, Chris.
CUOMO: Do you share Director Brennan's concerns that this President, if he were to lose, may not peacefully transfer power?
KING: I do. I mean that's not speculation. He's been asked that question several times directly. And he's essentially punted, and said, "Well, we'll see." That's not a very reassuring response.
And, by the way, Chris, the peaceful transfer of power is one of the things that's distinguished this country from the rest of the world for ever since our founding, and for the President to say that, and at the same time, as you suggested, to denigrate the democratic process, say it's going to - "If I don't win, it's going to be rigged and they're fraud, and million fraudulent," that's a very dangerous message because our system, Chris, is based on trust.
It's based upon the trust of the citizens that the system works that who gets the most votes wins, and for him to undermine that, and it's the same message, by the way, that the Iranians and the Russians are pushing, is really dangerous for the country.
CUOMO: Do you think your brothers and sisters, on the Right, in the GOP, would go along with that? KING: Well, I'm not sure. I mean, they are certainly reluctant, as you well know, as everybody knows, to criticize this President at this time.
I think there may be a difference of how they - what they talk about behind closed doors and what they say publicly. But I can't imagine any of my colleagues, who aren't concerned about the issue of the peaceful transfer of power.
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And John Brennan was talking about, and Christopher Wray, about the malign influence, the social media. There's another piece of this that was announced the other day, and that is the Russians are burrowing into our election infrastructure.
They did this in 2016. And I remember, saying at the time, they didn't do anything. All the Intelligence was they didn't change any votes. They didn't do anything. But they were in most of the states' infrastructure. My comment was they weren't doing it for fun. And I'm worried that - and they don't have to do the whole country.
CUOMO: And nothing's been done about it.
KING: All they have to do is mess up the rolls in--
CUOMO: None of systems have been hardened, right?
KING: Well they have been hardened. We're in lot better shape. I want to be a little bit reassured.
CUOMO: I get different takes on that.
KING: The states are in a lot better shape now--
CUOMO: So, I want to hear yours.
KING: The states are in a lot better shape now than they were in 2016. But they're not invulnerable. And what we learned, this week is, and we learned it, back in the summer, that the Russians are starting to plant malware, and be ready, to contribute to the chaos.
Chris, these guys don't like democracy. They don't want it to work.
CUOMO: Right.
KING: That's their goal. They don't have to change votes. They just have to sow doubt and undermine what it is that makes this country, you know, had been the envy of the world.
CUOMO: Who are you talking about, Trump or the Russians?
KING: I'm talking about the Russians right now.
CUOMO: Oh, sorry, Senator!
Let me ask you something else, straight talk with Angus.
The President says Nancy Pelosi is holding up a deal. He said to Joe Biden, "You know, sometimes you got to talk to your people, and just make them do it."
We're told that McConnell said to the White House, "Forget it. I'm not screwing up the Judge's confirmation. We're not going to get a deal done now. I'm not going to - I can't get the votes right now."
What's the truth?
KING: Well I think the latter is the truth. I mean Mitch McConnell has been reported, I mean I didn't hear him say it, but it's been reported that he told the White House he didn't want a deal before the election.
Look, Chris, Nancy Pelosi had the House pass a COVID relief bill on May 15th. Mitch McConnell never brought it up. Not only did he not bring it up, he never entered into any kind of negotiations. He never came to Chuck Schumer, or to the White House, or to Nancy Pelosi, and say, "OK, let's sit down and make a deal." It never happened. And--
CUOMO: But isn't that bad for Trump? Doesn't Trump benefit from a deal right now?
KING: He certainly would. And it would have benefited even more if a deal had happened a month ago. The House, by the way, passed another bill. They reduced - the bill they passed in May was $3 trillion worth of stimulus.
CUOMO: Right.
KING: They passed another bill, two weeks or three weeks ago, of $2 trillion, they brought their offer down by a third, still no response.
The President said "Well we're not going to negotiate," and then the next day, he said, "Yes, we are." But Mitch McConnell has been the man missing from the table all this time.
CUOMO: But why would he do the President dirty on something that matters this much?
KING: Well who knows? He may - he may think this will not help the President. And if Joe Biden is elected, it will help Joe Biden. He doesn't want to hurt - help Joe Biden.
But look, Chris, this shouldn't be about Joe Biden or the President or the election. This ought to be about the American people. There are people losing their apartments. They're losing their incomes. They're--
CUOMO: Waiting in line for food.
KING: --hurting for healthcare. 10 million people have lost their healthcare in this pandemic. And this is all games about who it's going to help and whether you
ought to give this gift to Joe Biden or Trump. What about the guy - the poor guy that's trying to make his payments? That's who we ought to be thinking about.
CUOMO: She loses. Just like they always do in a culture of opposition. When opposition is rewarded, in a binary system, the loser is the person who is supposed to be served. If opposition is the line for success and non-achievement, who is going to lose? The constituents.
Senator Angus King, I know you're always pushing for progress, and to get things done for your state, and the rest of the country. You're appreciated for it. I wish you good health.
KING: Yes. Good heath to you, Chris. Thank you.
CUOMO: Take care.
All right, now, the incumbent is the underdog maybe, national polls. But I'm telling you state-by-state you got to keep looking at this. Things are changing. They're close.
And he believes, Mr. Trump, that he is already the greatest president ever, maybe except for Abraham Lincoln. Well, what does the past, in terms of presidential behavior, tell us, in terms of points of comparison with Trump?
And is he picking the right Republican to compare himself in to this moment? Should it really be another Republican who lost because of how they coped with a crisis in a very famous election that shaped this country for decades to come?
Doris Kearns Goodwin with the inside scoop of history, next.
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TRUMP: Nobody has done more for the Black community than Donald Trump. And if you look, with the exception of Abraham Lincoln, possible exception, but the exception of Abraham Lincoln, nobody has done what I've done. BIDEN: Abraham Lincoln here is one of the most racist presidents we've had in modern history.
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CUOMO: Last night was just one of many comparisons this President has made between himself and Abraham Lincoln. Remember this last week?
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TRUMP: I can be more presidential than any president in our history with the possible exception of Abraham Lincoln when he wore the hat. That was tough to beat.
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CUOMO: It's, you know what, he's actually telling the truth, not about Lincoln but about himself.
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He could be more presidential. He could always act the way he did last night in the debate. He chooses not to because he thinks being cruel and being divisive works better for him. Not exactly Lincolnesque!
Now, a better point of comparison between this President, and any great figures of the past, or tragic figures of the past, is how he is dealing with crisis. Crisis is often defining in a presidential legacy. He keeps pointing to history. But what has he actually learned from it?
Let's bring in Doris Kearns Goodwin, Presidential Historian, the Author of "Leadership in Turbulent Times," perfect book, perfect point of comparison, perfect guest, thank you for being on PRIME TIME.
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN, AUTHOR, "LEADERSHIP IN TURBULENT TIMES": Glad to be here.
CUOMO: So, what do we see, by looking at Lincoln, or others, in times of crisis, and how it defined a presidency, and how that is instructive of what we are seeing with Trump?
GOODWIN: Well the most important thing, in a time of crisis, is for a president to be willing to take responsibility.
One of FDR's aides, Robert Sherwood said, when things are going all right, people don't have to think a lot about the character of the man in the presidency. He can just stay in that old picture frame.
But when there's adversity setting in, and individuals have problems that are too big for them to solve, they need leadership. They need national direction. They need national guidance. They need a collective response so that they can work together to solve the crisis. And the interesting thing when you think about what he said about President Lincoln, he said, "I've done more for Black Americans than any other president with the possible exception of Lincoln."
Lincoln would never talk that way. He said, "Don't call me a liberator. It was the anti-slavery movement and the Union soldiers that did it all."
It's the Civil Rights Movement that made the achievements of Lyndon Johnson's administration, which are far greater than President Trump's, voting rights, civil rights, fair housing. He himself said at Selma, LBJ did, the American Negro is the hero of this.
So, you're not giving something as a gift to somebody. They are responding with pressure, and you are leading - leading into that pressure, and producing that linkage that produces great social justice.
CUOMO: Yes. My senior, Terese (ph), teed up the same point for me that "Enough with the White savior narrative that he thinks he can subscribe to, and get somewhere. The only people, who've really ever helped Blacks, in any meaningful way, are other Blacks, in this country."
And obviously, we know you can't end prejudice with the minority. The majority has to do it. So, Doris, what do you think of this? And I know you won't hesitate to tell me I'm off, easy enough to do.
The idea, that he's comparing himself, to the wrong Republican, in a time of crisis, forget about Lincoln, it's Hoover he should be comparing himself to.
Hoover was there at the start of The Great Depression. And he was in denial of it. His messaging was in denial of it. He said it would be a quick turn. Wound up costing him the election.
Is that a better point of potential comparison?
GOODWIN: Well I think, in some ways, it is, because the great failure for President Trump was not taking that full national responsibility.
He called himself, at one point, "A Wartime President." And what that would have meant is mobilizing all the national resources that you had, the Defense Production Act, to its fullest extent, not just national respirators, and not just PPE, but perhaps making sure that schools are safely reopened, the money it would take, making sure that businesses can come back, making sure that there's rapid testing.
And what Hoover was unable to do was he didn't think it was the federal government's responsibility to deal with the Depression. It should be individuals. It should be private charity. It should be the local and state governments.
And when it didn't work, then he kept saying, "We're rounding the corner. The stock market has made an uptick." It was FDR, who assumed responsibility. Even as Governor of New York,
he said it's my responsibility, as the State Governor, to produce unemployment insurance, to put people to work, to take care of the food and the clothing. And that's what catapulted him, into the presidential race, and that's why it was a landslide.
One person took responsibility. That's the most important thing a leader can do. Individuals need that for collective action. Hoover didn't do it. FDR did, and it was a big win.
CUOMO: Why do--
GOODWIN: So, we'll see what happens.
CUOMO: Why do you think Trump didn't do it?
It seemed to me, all along, as a no-brainer, for him to say, "I'm going to do more. The states stink. They need my help. I'm going to give them everything," what I call the "Wall mentality," find money everywhere you can, force businesses to make deals for you, all the things he says he loves to do.
Why did he choose this path of denial about the pandemic?
GOODWIN: No, it's really a mystery to me, because, when he knew, back in January, how serious it was, if he had gotten ahead of the virus, right then, he could have been a leader in a crisis.
He could have been that person, who started us on the path toward the lockdowns, which then might have been reduced, and begun to open. We might be more open now. We might be at a lower level of virus, as we've hit this fall and winter break.
He also, at one point, there was a really interesting moment, when he said that he thought the biggest decision he would ever have to make in his life, and he hoped to god, he got it right, was how and when to reopen the states.
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And he knew, probably in the long run, in a few days, that he didn't have the power to do that. But he certainly had the power, as a persuader, as an inspirer, as somebody who could give things, to the states, who would reopen in the right way, with safety, with the money they needed.
And somehow, he never fully exercised that. He left it to the states, and then took after the states, "Liberate Michigan," when he didn't like what they were doing. But it's - I don't know the answer to that. I think it will be a really interesting thing for historians years from now, to figure out, when there were moments.
Even there was a moment in the hospital, when he spoke on that video, and I thought, "Oh my god, he's just said "I now understand the virus." I thought maybe he'll come out, and he'll say something like, "Now I
understand how it spreads. I saw that Rose Garden event. Maybe people should be wearing masks. I won't make it political. Maybe there should be social distancing."
There were chances he had to take hold of this crisis.
CUOMO: Right.
GOODWIN: And then maybe he would have had his desire to be remembered by history.
CUOMO: Chris Christie is doing it now. To borrow another title of one of your books, "Wait Until (ph) Next Year," that was about the Dodgers. It will also apply to our entire society.
Doris Kearns Goodwin, thank you for being a gift to the audience as always. We'll be right back.
GOODWIN: Oh, I'm glad to be with you.
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CUOMO: Thank you for watching. Have a great Friday night, and that starts with watching "CNN TONIGHT" with its star D. Lemon right now. Show is early because you deserve it.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON: 20 seconds! You owe me about 25 minutes.
CUOMO: I'll get you back. Give me time. Give me time.
LEMON: You're only supposed to sing that song with me. What happened?
CUOMO: It's too instructive. He is wrong in terms of which Republican president past to compare himself to. It's not Lincoln. We know why he does it.
It's Herbert Hoover. He denied the extent of the Depression. He wasn't honest with the people, and it wound up costing him that election.
