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Trump and Biden Clash in Final Presidential Debate; More than 71,000 Cases in U.S, Worst Day Since Summer. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired October 23, 2020 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEW DAY: Tthe first debate, Donald Trump.

[07:00:01]

But according to the poll, he didn't beat the guy he's actually running against.

Once again, the president made the false claim that we're rounding the corner and the coronavirus will go away. Vice President Pence warned that a dark winter is coming. We'll let you answer that.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN NEW DAY: Thank you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: There's not a serious scientist in the world who thinks it's going to be over soon.

KRISTEN WELKER, MSNBC HOST: President Trump, your reaction?

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I didn't say over soon. I say, we're learning to live with it. We have no choice. We can't lock ourselves up in a basement like Joe does.

BIDEN: He says that we're learning to live with it. People are learning to die with it. You folks home will have an empty chair at the kitchen table this morning. That man or wife going to bed tonight and reaching over to try to touch their -- out of habit, where their wife or husband was, is gone. Learning to live with it? Come on. We're dying with it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Coronavirus deaths are increasing in more than half the country this morning. Overnight, more than 71,000 new cases were reported. That's the highest number since the summer. That's the fourth worst day since the pandemic began. More than 41,000 people are hospitalized. That's the highest number in two months. Eight states are reporting record hospitalizations.

CAMEROTA: Joining us now, CNN Political Analyst Maggie Haberman, she's a White House Correspondent for The New York Times, and CNN White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, I want to start with you. There were all sorts of talk about before the debate about what President Trump's style would be, if he was going to listen to his advisers, if he was going to do anything differently. What's the feedback last night and today? Do they think that he accomplished what he had to?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that was the Donald Trump that they had hoped to see at the first debate and, really, for the last several months of this election, because the president was more restrained than he was the first debate. Of course, the bar was incredibly low for that given it was pretty much incoherent at the first debate.

But I think the president's advisers walked away believing that the president did a much more effective job of painting Joe Biden as this career politician who didn't get anything done during his time in office, which was the president's original line of attack several months ago.

The question, though, of course, is whether or not it's too late for the president to be making that argument to the voters that he needs to actually go and vote for him on Election Day or, you know, over the last several weeks, if people have been doing absentee voting and early voting.

So I think people are happy with the president's performance last night, certainly his advisers. But the question is, is it too late for them to actually make a difference with that performance now.

BERMAN: And, Maggie, your story overnight gets to this fact. And as I noted before, ultimately, the question isn't whether second debate Donald Trump beat first debate Donald Trump, that would have been hard not to do. It's do we do against Joe Biden and who presented the most compelling argument for how to lead the country over the next four years. And, look, polls are poll. Our polls seem to think that viewers thought that Joe Biden won the debate.

There are two different questions, right? Did Donald Trump improve? Did he improve enough?

MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. Look, John, you raise a point that I think is equally important, which is Joe Biden did better too. Joe Biden did not have a great first debate. A lot of Democrats will admit that privately. And he performed much better last night than he had the first time.

So even as Donald Trump was casting a better version of himself, and he definitely was, he was calmer, he was much more on point, he stuck to what he had clearly prepared to say for the most part. Biden was also better. And Biden was able to rebut a lot of what the president was saying.

There were moments where Joe Biden didn't do as well as his advisers might have wanted him to do. There were certainly moments that way with Donald Trump. So far, this race has been Trump against Trump. And I don't think last night did a whole lot to change that. CAMEROTA: Maggie, I want to stick with you for a second in terms of those missed opportunities for the candidates. Let's play a missed opportunity, if that's what you want to call it, or a misstep from President Trump, where Joe Biden was talking about what's going to be happening around the dinner table and coronavirus and the loss from that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: There's a reason why he's bringing up all of this malarkey. There's a reason for it. He doesn't want to talk about the substantive issues. It's not about his family and my family. It's about your family. And your family is hurting badly.

We should be talking about your families, but that's the last thing he wants to talk about.

TRUMP: Typical political statement. Let's get off this China thing and then he looks, the family, around the table, everything, just a typical politician when I see it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: What did you think of that exchange, Maggie?

HABERMAN: It was an odd moment for President Trump to try to make fun of Joe Biden as a typical politician for telling voters that it's more important to talk about their own circumstances in the middle of a pandemic and an economic recession. I think there was a moment where the president could have taken that and said something to the effect of, I understand what people are going through, but, and then try to continue with the case he was hoping to make about Joe Biden's son.

Joe Biden did what his advisers wanted him to do, which is to say essentially, you're raising an issue about my child that has no role here.

[07:05:01]

And the president just couldn't pivot and find a way to get back into it. I think that was more than a missed opportunity. I think that that was something where the president potentially harmed himself, depending on whether we see that moment show up in ads.

BERMAN: You know what's interesting is, we saw it show up in a focus group last night that Gary Tuchman did with undecided voters in North Carolina. And the man you're about to hear from pointed this moment out, out of the blue. I mean, Gary didn't bring it up. This guy brought it up. And this is someone who voted for Donald Trump in 2016. So listen to how this undecided voter going into the debate saw that very moment Maggie is talking about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trump responded with some mockery of that. And I think, for me, politics are about relationships and people and this is all about the American family. So that was quite revealing and disturbing for me to hear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: I was struck by that, Kaitlan, Gary's focus group, hearing people watch the debate. I think people watched these debates differently than reporters often do. And different things strike them in different ways. What did you see here there?

COLLINS: Yes. And I think the president has always had trouble striking this empathetic tone. And you saw it the way he was talking about coronavirus last night, you know, right off the bat. And I think that was one of the biggest issues to voters.

And people always talk about how most people who aren't reporters, who are just watching the debates may not watch all 90 minutes of it. And the president was more successful in landing his attacks on Joe Biden at the end of the debate. But at the beginning, when it's coronavirus, that is something that affects every single person who was watching.

And so when the president was saying things like a vaccine will be ready in a few weeks, and then he was pressed on that and he said, actually, he could not guarantee that it would be ready in a few weeks, he was going back to his timeline that he said before about, by the end of the year, compared to what medical experts have said.

You know, that's a moment where that matters to voters, that the president is being straight forward with them about what is actually happening with the pandemic. And you saw the president rely on tactics that he's used before to talk about his response to coronavirus.

And I think that could have been one of the more effective parts for Joe Biden, where the president was relying on things that he said before, and we know that voters do not like the way the president has handled the pandemic largely.

And, of course, that changes when you look at which voters, if they're likely Biden or likely Trump voters, and there's a really wide gap, according to the latest CNN polling of how those voters prioritize the pandemic, but, of course, the president's voters doing less so than likely Biden voters. But I do think it's a moment that matters to everyone who was watching.

CAMEROTA: Here is a moment that may have been a misstep, Maggie, for Joe Biden. At least the Trump campaign thinks it is. So listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Transition, from their own industry (ph), yes.

TRUMP: Oh, that's a big statement.

BIDEN: That is a big statement. Because I would stop --

WELKER: Why would you do that?

BIDEN: Because the oil industry pollutes significantly.

TRUMP: Oh, I see.

BIDEN: And here is the deal.

TRUMP: That's a big statement.

BIDEN: If you would let me finish the statement, because it has to be replaced by renewable energy, over time, over time. And I would stop giving to the oil industry, I would stop giving them federal subsidies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: What did that moment mean, Maggie?

HABERMAN: Look, that was -- I was going to point to that moment a few seconds ago. That was a moment that I think that Joe Biden might end up regretting, depending on whether people believe that there is still enough time to suffer anything in this race.

But I think that the Trump campaign already, from the folks I've heard, from pointing to that moment as something they hope to highlight in places like Ohio and Pennsylvania, places where this might resonate with voters. I think that it was an unforced error. And it is part of why they have been trying to force attention on Biden and what he will do in the coming years.

To be clear, Alisyn, again, I'm not sure it's enough to change the trajectory of the race, but they are hoping to flush it into voters' minds in the final 11 days here.

BERMAN: It is interesting, and I don't disagree, it was a notable moment. It was one of those notable over 90 minutes where you sit up in your chair a little bit, like, oh, this is interesting.

I was reminded though that fracking is actually underwater in Pennsylvania. It has a net negative in Pennsylvania. 52 percent of voters of Pennsylvania disapprove of racking, 48 percent approve.

I know the Trump campaign is leaning into this as a moment and will use this over the next few days. Maybe it's less clear about how effective it will be. We'll have to see.

Kaitlan, Maggie brought up the whole 90 minutes and you brought up the fact you watched the whole 90 minutes. The actual very end of the debate was notable, how each candidate -- and this gets to something that Maggie was saying too, just about the overall tone and how they approach things. The closing argument that they made when Kristen Welker asked, what will your message be to America on inauguration, listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WELKER: Imagine this is your inauguration. What will you say in your address to Americans who did not vote for you?

TRUMP: I'm cutting taxes and he wants to raise everybody's taxes. And he wants to put new regulations on everything. He will kill it. If he gets in, you will have a depression the likes of which you've never seen.

[07:10:02]

Your 401(k)s will go to hell. And it will be a very, very sad day for this country.

BIDEN: I will say, I'm an American president. I represent all of you, whether you voted for me or against me. and I'm going to make sure that you're represented. I'm going to give you hope. We're going to move. We're going to choose science over fiction. We're going to choose hope over fear. We're going to choose to move forward because we have enormous opportunities, enormous opportunities to make things better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: It was interesting, and maybe that both candidates did what they wanted to do. President Trump just wants to make that economic contrast, but Joe Biden was the one who actually answered the question directly.

COLLINS: Right. And I thought that was a great last question by Kristen Welker to really give an indication of where their mindsets are and how they're viewing the presidency, which is something we don't always -- it sometimes gets lost in the other topics of the debate.

But the president knows that he has polled strongest with voters on his dealing with the economy. His advisers have hammered that home with the president. They've said, that's what he should focus on with the pandemic. And so that's why, obviously, the president chose to focus on that.

But another thing that people do actually care about and they often prioritize when they're polled is unity in the country, and the way the country is so polarized and so divided right now. And that's what Joe Biden was appealing to.

And so the question is, what makes voters -- what drives voters to the polls more? Is it unity or is it their wallets, is the argument that the president was making. But I do think that was such a great last question. It really was indicative of where their mindsets are.

BERMAN: An example. What happens when a debate moderator moderates, also?

CAMEROTA: Yes. I'm so glad that Kaitlan brought that up, because Kristen Welker -- huge props to Kristen Welker. We talked a lot about when a moderator doesn't do it right, she did it right.

BERMAN: Some big moments on immigration, on health care, much more just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:15:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: When he says public action, he's talking about socialized medicine and health care. When he talks about a public option, he's talking about destroying your Medicare and destroying your social security. And this whole country will come down.

You know, Bernie Sanders tried it in his state. He tried it in his state. His governor was a very liberal governor. They wanted to make it work --

WELKER: Okay, let's hear -- let's let Vice President Biden respond. Vice President Biden will respond.

BIDEN: He's a very confused guy. He thinks he's running against somebody else. He's running against Joe Biden. I beat all of those other people because I disagreed with them. Joe Biden, he's running against.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Back with us, Maggie Haberman and Kaitlan Collins.

I thought that was interesting. On two separate levels, right, it was a chance for Joe Biden to turn the tables on this whole mental acuity thing and say that Donald Trump is confused and it was a chance for Joe Biden to point out some of the consistencies over his entire campaign, particularly on the issue of health care, which is so important to people.

COLLINS: Yes. And I think on health care, we did not see Joe Biden really the hammer the president on that in the first debate as much as you thought he would. And that came out obviously last night because he was much stronger on that argument. Because the president was talking about what he would replace Obamacare with if it is struck down by the Supreme Court, which, of course, is going to hear those arguments in the coming weeks.

And the president has still not unveiled a comprehensive health care plan, despite what his aides have insisted. Instead, they've only rolled out executive orders, which, of course, do not carry the heft that a bill and legislation that they could propose would. And they've had a lot of time to do that. That's the problem with the president running with this outsider message is he's running on his record of four years in the White House unlike how he was in 2016.

And the health care has been one of the biggest weaknesses for the White House in this election. And so going up against Joe Biden, his best argument was talking about Medicare for all and socialized medicine, which, of course, Joe Biden does stand in stark contrast to the rest of the Democratic field that he was up against in the primaries earlier this year.

And so that was one moment where I don't think that the president was able to come out and say, well, here is what we're going to do on health care, because they do not have a plan. Despite what they have said, they have unveiled nothing.

CAMEROTA: I also thought that was an interesting moment, Maggie, because the Trump campaign has tried to say, Joe Biden is beholden to the progressive wing. He is a puppet of the left.

BERMAN: You're a puppet.

CAMEROTA: No, you're the puppet.

And that's where Joe Biden basically took the risk of alienating them and said, I disagree with them. I'm Joe Biden.

HABERMAN: Look, I think, Alisyn, Joe Biden thinks that he's in a position to be able to say something like that and while it might alienate some people, I think the glue that has been holding the Democratic coalition together for many months now has been the desire to get Donald Trump out of the White House, and Joe Biden knows that. Joe Biden is right, that part of why he was the right candidate for this moment.

Again, the race is not over. This is all assuming that the polling is correct. But assuming the polling is correct, it would suggest that he was the right man for this moment because he's much harder to caricature. Because the attacks that Donald Trump has tried using on him on a couple of fronts, both in terms of whether it'd be the extreme (INAUDIBLE) party and beholden to progressives, as you put it, or whether he is unlikable and can have his personal favorable numbers brought down.

The attacks that President Trump used against Hillary Clinton four years ago simply do not work the same way and they don't work the same way during a pandemic. And I think Biden feels as if he is in a position to be able to say that. Although in fairness, he has said versions of this before.

BERMAN: One thing you point out there, Maggine, there's a lot of time left, 11 days. This is the four-year anniversary of the James Comey letter today. So, happy anniversary.

CAMEROTA: What did you get me?

BERMAN: So something -- you know, things can change in this time. And as you point out, I think if the president had a debate performance like the first one, more Republicans who really were panicked, I think, a little bit behind the scenes would have been trying to run out of the burning building. That may not happen now, whether or not that changes the trajectory is another thing completely.

Kaitlan, one of the things in the news over the last 48 hours has been the information about the 545 children who were separated by their parents at the border due to Trump administration policies who have not been reunited with their parents.

[07:20:09]

That came up at the debate last night. I want to play the different types of responses from the candidates.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: What happened? Parents were -- their kids were ripped from their arms and separated. And now they cannot find over 500 sets of those parents and those kids are alone, nowhere to go, nowhere to go. It's criminal.

TRUMP: They are so well taken care of. They're in facilities that were so clean.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Kaitlan, the takeaway from that?

COLLINS: Well, the president's other response was that the Obama/Biden administration was what put in place those cages that the kids were put in, those pictures that were horrible, of course, that we saw. But what he did not mention is that it was his administration that implemented that zero tolerance policy.

That was Jeff Sessions and the DHS later on that really was the one implementing that incredibly strict policy that was one of the worst moments of the Donald Trump presidency. Even his own aides who have worked here in the White House, who worked at Department of Homeland Security will acknowledge as much.

And so the president was trying deflect and say it was on the Obama/Biden administration when, of course, it was his administration that implemented the zero tolerance policy.

But also what he's said about what's happening now about trying to connect those hundreds of children with their parents that were taken away from then, he didn't acknowledge that they're unable to find them. And the administration, I believe, only revealed this under court-ordered -- they only revealed this information under a court order, so that's the only reason we know about it.

So the president was saying that they are trying to remedy that situation, trying to reconnect them, but he did not acknowledge that actually the only reason we know about this is because it came out in a court order. And simply the issue is, is that they believe it's almost impossible to be able to reconnect these children with their families. And that is not something that the president acknowledged.

Although, I was surprised I think this was one of the first times we've heard an immigration discussion come up in the talks between Joe Biden and Donald Trump in a substantive way.

CAMEROTA: I mean, Maggie, it's been three years that these kids -- we didn't know that there were 545 still separated from their parents, except for the court -- you know, that they had to release that information.

And, by the way, I talked yesterday to one of the women at the organization trying to do the reunification and they couldn't find all of those kids. They're not in very clean, beautiful places being kept in great conditions. That's just simply not true, what the president said.

HABERMAN: No, that's exactly right, Alisyn. What Kaitlan said is correct. The Biden/Obama record on immigration has spots that a lot of immigration advocates are not happy with. But the policy was not to forcibly take children from their parents at the border as a deterrent. That is very much a Donald Trump administration and Mike Pence administration policy.

And the president describing the children as well taken care of, there have been all kinds of reports about the conditions that kids have been kept in and what has been going on as they are being detained and they are extremely troubling. So he is painting a picture that is entirely not true.

But as you say, I think the most striking part there was him saying, yes, we're trying very hard to find them. Number one, we don't know that. And to your point, number two, we only know the data because they had to comply with a court order.

This is something that this administration has tried to cloak in secrecy. They have repeatedly been dishonest about whether child separations were, in fact, the policy of the administration. And as colleague, Mike Shear, reportedly recently, they absolutely were.

BERMAN: So, Kaitlan, 11 days left. What next and is there a sense inside Trump world they made a mistake by pulling out of that second debate, even in a virtual sense? Because now they've got no more, no more big, giant set pieces like this make the case to the American people.

COLLINS: I think they would rather be coming off a performance like the one that the president had last night, a week ago, when they have more voters that they could reach. But I think the question is, ultimately, does it really make a difference what we saw last night, because the president needed a good performance.

Alisyn is right, he could not have afforded a performance like he had in the first debate, and his political advisers will readily acknowledge that. But the question is, does that okay performance last night, that stronger performance than the first debate, really change voters' minds or does it really kind of result in a draw? Does it actually change the state of the race?

And so I think you're going to see the president on the road a lot over the next several days. That's starting today. We're going to Florida. And then, of course, we'll be in Pennsylvania several times, on Monday as well. So he is going to be on the road in a similar fashion than you saw in 2016.

But the question and the calculation that his advisers aren't sure of is whether or not doing this last-minute crunch like he did in 2016 can actually help pull him over the line, or if it's not going to be as effective given that so many Americans -- I mean, it's astounding the numbers of Americans that have already done early voting.

So that's really a question that people are not going to know the answer to until after Election Day.

CAMEROTA: Kaitlan Collins, Maggie Haberman, thank you both very much for sharing all of your reporting and thoughts with us this morning.

[07:25:04]

So the fall surge of coronavirus is getting worse. There are alarming new numbers this morning that have health officials very concerned. We look at that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Developing overnight, more than 71,000 new coronavirus cases reported in the United States. That is the fourth worst day since the pandemic began. More than 41,000 people are hospitalized and that's the most in two months.

[07:30:00]

Eight states are reporting record hospitalizations this morning.

Joining us now is Dr. Mark Schlissel. He is the president of the University of Michigan.