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University of Michigan Under Stay-At-Home Order Amid Spike in Coronavirus Cases; Big Ten Football Returns to Action As COVID Cases Surge in U.S. Midwest; Trump and Biden Clash in Final Presidential Debate. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired October 23, 2020 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Eight states are reporting record hospitalizations this morning. Joining us now is Dr. Mark Schlissel; he's the president of the University of Michigan that is currently struggling with an outbreak. Also with us CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who is a proud alum of the University of Michigan and we'll get into all of that. I see your wolverine fist bump there.

Sanjay, let's start with where we are in the country, before we get to Michigan. I remember this week, when we were at 50,000 cases and we said, oh, gosh, let's hope against hope that we don't go to 60. Then we were hoping against hope that we wouldn't go to 70. We're now at more than 71,000. What happens tomorrow?

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, I mean, the numbers are clearly going up, and that's one thing that you look at. But you also try to pay attention to the pace at which these numbers are increasing as well.

You know, that's the real concern. I mean, the numbers are going up and they're going up at a pretty rapid pace. Add to that, what we've known for some time, that the Fall was going to be worse than the Summer. People can't be outside as much, the virus is very contagious and it's more likely to spread. So, you know, this is a concern.

We do know that the people, the demographics if you will, of people who are getting infected are different now compared to earlier in this pandemic. They tend to be younger, more likely to be under the age of 50.

But as you pointed out, Alisyn, despite that, we are seeing significant increase in hospitalizations as well. I mean, there are many hospital systems now around the country that are at much higher capacity than they typically are this time of year. And we're going into not only, you know, worsening coronavirus numbers, but also flu season.

So, look, this is a concern. I mean, if you were to imagine a storm, if this was a viral storm like a hurricane, you would say, you've got to hunker down for a while. People right now -- people need to identify who their bubbles are going to be for the next couple of months, say, we're going to be together for a couple of months. We'll get through this, but the next couple three months probably are going to be really tough.

CAMEROTA: President Chisel, let's zero in on what's happening at the University of Michigan. Just this week, local authorities -- local health officials ordered students there to stay in their residences, effective immediately, to try to combat an outbreak. So what went wrong on campus?

MARK SCHLISSEL, PRESIDENT, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: So, yes, Alisyn, good morning, good morning Sanjay, it's great to be on with you.

GUPTA: Good morning.

SCHLISSEL: I think we're seeing the same thing on campus that you were just describing in the United States as a whole. The weather is getting colder, people are spending more time indoors, and I think there's a little bit of COVID-19 fatigue going on. But what's interesting, Alisyn, is the challenge on our campus is focus on our undergrads.

So, we've got about 30,000 total undergrads and 16,000 or so graduate and professional students. And 99 percent of our student cases are in people less than 22 years old. So, it's the undergraduate population. And the epidemiology of these cases shows us that they're not happening due to spread in our classrooms or in our campus facilities.

They're happening under social circumstances where small numbers of people let their guard down. And you know, young people have strong urges to get together, I understand that. And I think as they do more of that indoors and they gather in larger numbers, we're seeing the consequences.

CAMEROTA: And so, will you send students home after they're out of this, you know, stay in their residence order that I think expires on November 3rd. What's the plan?

SCHLISSEL: Well, the way we've structured our semester is to end the in-person part of our semester on November 20th, the Friday before Thanksgiving. Send the students home for a much-needed week of vacation.

It's been a very difficult and stressful semester for everybody. And then they'd return, but only online for the last week or two of instruction followed by exams done remotely. And so, the in-person semester was set to end on the 20th. We've given students the choice, if they'd rather go home for this self-isolation period, it's OK with us. But we want to make sure they do so carefully.

So in collaboration with the Health Department, we've set up some exit protocols that involves self-isolation for a period of time, you know, enhanced social distancing, and a requirement that they take a COVID- 19 test, a virus test within a week of their departure. And then with some instructions for how to stay safe at home. This of

course, the bigger risk is young people seem to do reasonably well and make it through this virus, but they're going home to families that are much more heterogeneous where there's much more risk of a bad outcome from an infection.

CAMEROTA: Sanjay, I know, you have some questions about what's happening at your alma mater. What are they?

GUPTA: Yes, and President Schlissel, welcome. You know, people should know as well, you're an immunologist, I mean, you're a doctor, you're immunologist, this is your area of study. When students came out of campus, came out of school back in March, there were fewer than 5,000 people who had been infected, fewer than a 100 people who had died.

[07:35:00]

When they returned, more than 5 million people had been infected and close to 200,000 people at that point had died. Just fundamentally, you know, even with robust testing, you saw large outbreaks happening around campuses around the south. Why did you think it was OK to go ahead and bring students back this Fall?

SCHLISSEL: You know, it's a really important question, Sanjay. You know, all of our choices have not been, you know, choices that are good versus bad. They're all difficult choices.

So, the decision to have 20 percent of our classes in person and 80 percent online, and our dorms at about two-thirds occupancy rather than have everybody at home was based on the fact that 70 percent of our students live off-campus in leased residences in town, as you know. Those leases are signed a year in advance, and the survey data we had suggested that students were coming back to Ann Arbor whether we were fully remote or not.

We were also very concerned about the loneliness and isolation many students are suffering. And we were concerned that there's some classes that just can't be taught online. Things like laboratory instruction, music and arts instruction, and we didn't want those students to suffer.

We have students that are coming out of the foster care system, where we are their place to live. So it was a complicated, difficult decision, but we decided on balance to give it a try and to put in place a good public health guidance with masks and distancing. All of our large classes were made remote. We emphasized in person only when the course could really be taught best in person or only in person.

And we put some confidence and faith in our students to work together and give it a try. The first several weeks of this semester went quite well with pretty small numbers of cases. It's the last three or four weeks, as you see happening all around the nation, that things have started to slip away from us.

CAMEROTA: Sanjay, do you -- GUPTA: Look, I mean, the virus is very contagious -- yes, the virus

is very contagious, very predictable as are as I think you're alluding to impressions, this whole students. They're going to congregate and they're going to do it, and by the way, no one loves Michigan football more than me. I even carry my hat right here on the desk. But what about -- what about football, though, sir? You know, I mean, this is -- this is a really challenging one.

You know, people have said that it just shouldn't happen because even if you can keep athletes safe, it's going to encourage gatherings. Do we need to have football? Christine Brennan, who is one of our analysts said that it represented the darkest day in the conference's history to go ahead with big 10 sports. Again, I love football. I know you do as well. But does that make sense? What boxes are getting checked by going ahead in the season --

SCHLISSEL: Sure, it's an important question. It's an important question, Sanjay. So the way we have approached the pandemic and the way the Washtenaw County Health Department has approached it is their orders focus on where the risk is. So students, although, they're supposed to stay in place, they're allowed to go get food, they're allowed to go to medical appointments. They're actually allowed to go to class.

They're allowed to take walks and go out for exercise with one other student. Our research labs remain up and running, our health system is up and running. So the order is focused on diminishing the activity that's at risk. We had shut down all intercollegiate athletics for a period of almost a couple of months as you recall in August and September, while doctors and team officials and league officials tried to figure out whether you could conduct intercollegiate sports safely.

They brought to the presidents a number of weeks ago a plan that involved daily rapid antigen testing, you know, the quick turnaround test, with data that showed that if you administer one of those tests every day, the likelihood that an infected student who could transmit the disease would enter one of our facilities or beyond the playing field was almost zero.

So we all became confident that for the student athletes themselves, it was safe. So, it fell into the same category as other activities on campus. Our graduate students are doing their thing in our research labs and our students are going to class.

So we felt that we shouldn't penalize our student athletes if we had figured out a way to allow them to compete safely. It's the league providing the testing, so they're bearing the expense. It's no drain on our testing capacity, but the important point you raise is the culture of football on our campus and other campuses, would it provoke partying around a game?

There's no attendance at the game, just two tickets to each student for their family, basically. So there'll be almost nobody in our 100,000-seat big house. And I became convinced, unfortunately, that the students that were going to violate this order and were going to look for ways to congregate and party on a Saturday or a Saturday night, Sanjay, they're probably going to do it anyway.

[07:40:00]

And that's what's been getting us in trouble. So the vast majority of our students have actually been doing quite well. You walk our campus, everyone is wearing a mask, the classrooms are safe, our eating facilities are safe. So we've just struck again another one of these difficult balances.

CAMEROTA: Yes, President Schlissel, I'm not sure if you're aware that today is a very special day, speaking of partying. It's Sanjay Gupta's birthday today.

SCHLISSEL: Oh, Sanjay, happy birthday!

CAMEROTA: And here's a picture of Sanjay when he was at the University of Michigan Med School --

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Oh, he's a looker!

CAMEROTA: Or is that John Travolta, I can't tell.

GUPTA: Wow!

CAMEROTA: So, happy birthday Sanjay--

GUPTA: You guys are good, digging into the archives.

CAMEROTA: I take it you're going to have a big maskless party today for yourself or what?

GUPTA: This is going to be a birthday to remember, for sure, but no parties here. But thank God, the hair is almost the same. Geez, not much has changed --

CAMEROTA: You are working on that --

GUPTA: I like a lot of the --

BERMAN: Paging Dr. Gupta! I have to say!

CAMEROTA: Mcdreamy!

BERMAN: All right!

GUPTA: Oh, God.

BERMAN: Happy birthday, Sanjay!

GUPTA: This is good --

BERMAN: Thank you --

GUPTA: Next year we're together. That's my wish.

CAMEROTA: OK, us, too -- (CROSSTALK)

SCHLISSEL: I hope so.

CAMEROTA: Us too. President Schlissel, thanks very much, thanks for engaging in that frivolity with us --

SCHLISSEL: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right. It was the final presidential debate last night. A lot was said that was not true. National treasure, fact-checking robot, Daniel Dale watched so carefully and when we come back, you will hear his definitive report on the truth. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:45:00]

BERMAN: So, if you've been watching the debates on CNN, you know that one of the most anticipated moments of truth literally comes from CNN fact-checker Daniel Dale, part human, part accountability robot. This is what he saw last night.

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Alisyn and John, we have a president who's running for re-election on a strategy of deliberate serial dishonesty. And that's what we got from Trump at this debate. In fact, he was somehow more dishonest at this debate than he was during his bombastic performance in the first presidential debate.

His very first sentence at this last debate was incorrect. He was wrongly describing a pandemic-related statistic. And he went on from there to again falsely assert that the pandemic is rounding some sort of corner, it's going away. In fact, the situation is getting worse in terms of cases, deaths, hospitalization, test positivity rate.

He claimed in that first answer that a vaccine is ready. No vaccine is ready. And he continued to make false assertions about Biden's plans. For example, again, asserting that Biden wants to terminate the private health insurance of 180 million people.

Biden, again has explicitly, vocally rejected that kind of single- payer medical-for-all approach in favor of a voluntary public option in which people could opt in if they want to. Trump just basically kept repeating many of his other false claims from campaign rallies, claiming that only 1 percent of people show up for immigration court hearings, in fact, it's closer to 75 percent.

Again, asserting he's been better for black Americans than any president since Lincoln. This is completely ridiculous, frankly. Again, asserting that it is China paying the tariffs. As Biden correctly pointed out, it's U.S. taxpayers. I could go on and on. Now, Biden was not perfect. He made a false claim that he had never said he opposed fracking. He did say that in the 2019 and early 2020 Democratic primary.

Now, his campaign always clarified, that was not his actual policy, a complete fracking ban, but he did create that strong impression. Biden also omitted important information about his own plan, the public option, describing it as something that would automatically enroll people in states that have not expanded Medicaid under Obamacare.

But declining to mention or maybe forgetting to mention that it would also allow millions of other people, not just low-income people, not just in those states to enroll. So, Biden made some false claims, some claims misleading, were lacking in context, but we just got a fire- hose, an avalanche of bombardment, whatever you want to call it, it was the same as usual from President Donald Trump. Alisyn and John?

BERMAN: All right, our thanks. A big thanks to Daniel Dale. Like we said, accountability robot. So just 11 days left to vote. Where those votes come from makes all the difference, thanks to the founding fathers or some might say, no thanks to the founding fathers. What the path to 270 looks like this morning, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:50:00]

BERMAN: Just 11 days left to vote, nearly 47 million people have voted already. That's about 35 percent of the total vote from 2016 with 11 days left. But again, thanks to the founding fathers, it's not about how many votes exactly, but where? CNN's senior politics writer and analyst Harry Enten joins us now with the path to 270 electoral votes. Harry, and this morning as we sit here, you say that Joe Biden has more paths to 270 electoral votes. Why?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICS WRITER: I mean, look, it's pretty simple, John. Look at the seven closest contests that Trump won in 2016. Look at the polling averages in those particular contests and what do you see?

You see that Joe Biden holds a lead in all of them from 3 points in North Carolina all the way up to 9 points in Michigan. And the fact is Joe Biden only needs to carry at least two of these contests in most cases three, in order to win to get to 270. And right now, he holds a lead in all seven of them.

BERMAN: Let's talk about the different paths starting with the most obvious.

ENTEN: Right. The most obvious one is basically the Midwest path right for Joe Biden. Look at the states where he was ahead by 5 points or more in both September and October. And what you see there is if he's just able to win those states, he gets to 279.

That is even the case even if he loses states like Florida, North Carolina and Arizona where he has been holding a lead. As long as he wins those states where he was ahead by 5 points in September and October, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, plus the Clinton states and Nebraska's second congressional district that gets you to 279 electoral votes --

BERMAN: Well, no, on this map, he could actually also lose Nevada and --

ENTEN: Yes --

BERMAN: Still win the presidency there. Sure he doesn't want to, all right, backup path for Joe Biden?

ENTEN: Yes, the backup path is let's just say that he loses in a state like Pennsylvania, right? If he's then able to win in a state like Arizona where he is ahead by 4 points or more in the September and October average, and you add in Nebraska's second congressional district, that barely gets him to 270 electoral votes.

But I think the sort of gets at the idea of why Biden is the favorite at this point. He has more paths to the presidency so that even if he loses a key state like Pennsylvania, there is, in fact, a realistic chance that he wins even if he loses Pennsylvania and Florida and North Carolina.

BERMAN: All right, how about the Midwest debacle path for Joe Biden? This is unlikely, but not impossible.

ENTEN: Right. You know, sometimes there are polls that miss in certain regions, right? Let's just say the poll averages are off again in the Midwest. Is there a path for Joe Biden? In fact, there is a path for Joe Biden. Let's just say he wins the Clinton states but then goes down and he wins Florida, plus North Carolina, that gets him to 276 electoral votes.

[07:55:00]

Now, my guess is, this is probably not going to happen, but the one thing to keep in mind that we learned the hard way in 2016 is polling errors tend to be correlated across states. So, if the polls are off in a place like Pennsylvania, there is a pretty decent shot that they'd be off in Michigan and Wisconsin as well. There would still be a path for Biden, but it would be a difficult one, but it's at least plausible.

BERMAN: All right. President Trump's path.

ENTEN: Right. Look, the president has fewer paths than Joe Biden does, there's no doubt about that. But there still are some paths for him. The most obvious one for him is to win in the places where he was down, but down by less than 5 points, and then add in a place like Wisconsin, Michigan or Pennsylvania.

So he needs to win Florida most likely, he needs to win Arizona, North Carolina. But then as long as he just picks off one Midwestern state or Great Lake battleground state, he'd get there. But again, I will just say this over and over and over again, it's going to be very difficult for Trump to win if he doesn't win in at least one of those Great Lake battleground states.

BERMAN: And just one point you made before, Harry, that I want to expand on a little bit. Guys like you and me, we should just say troubled, deeply troubled individuals, will sit at this map and look at all the different possible paths minus this state, plus this state. In truth, things move in a pattern, typically speaking, there's a trend. There is a reason Donald Trump won in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin last time, all of them rather than just one of them, right?

ENTEN: Yes, that's exactly right, right? Look, these are states that are part of a union, they all share similar demographics to one another. So, you know, you know that in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, a large share of the electorate is non-college white voters.

So, if the polls are under-estimating Trump support among that group in one of those states, there is a pretty good chance it's underestimating in another. There's also sometimes where polls will just under-represent someone's strength in a certain region, right? So it wouldn't be surprising to me if the polls were underestimating Trump in Florida, there is a pretty decent shot they're underestimating him in North Carolina because they're both southern states.

So these poll errors are correlated. So, just because, you know, one state might say, oh, look, Biden is ahead by 5 plus in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan, even if he loses one, he'll be able to win another. That math doesn't necessarily always work out which is part of the reason why Trump still has a chance at this particular point --

BERMAN: The converse is equally true, though. Is that Joe Biden could win by more in all the states just as easily as Donald Trump could win there. All right, Harry, I'm going to ask a rhetorical question, I'm going to answer it, and I'm going to ask for the evidence here.

When is the election over? The answer to that question is when they're done counting the ballots. And sometimes that's not on the original election night. It may not be on November 3rd when the election is over, and we know who won, and that's OK. And history tells us it's OK, and there is precedent for that, correct?

ENTEN: There's absolutely precedent for that. You know, there are going to be a lot of states, more states where a substantial number of votes will be counted by mail this particular year.

Just look at a state like Washington, right, which has had mail-in elections for a while now, and you can go back to 2010 and look at the Senate race there right between Patty Murray and Dino Rossi, that race was not declared the winner until Thursday after election day. So, it was two days later, and Murray actually won by a fairly decent margin, he won by over 4 percentage points.

And so, this to me is rather important. It takes time sometimes to count the votes, but it's much more important to get an accurate count this year than to be quick. And I know, we here at CNN certainly believe that.

BERMAN: That 4-point margin is what's key in that. Four points in a presidential race is actually a pretty sizable amount. It took until Thursday there, even with that sizable amount, it could take some time, that's OK. And Harry, you're OK. Thanks so much for being with us this morning --

ENTEN: So, are you, buddy.

BERMAN: All right, NEW DAY continues right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE FOR 2020: I'm going to shut down the virus, not the country.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: All he does is talk about shut downs. Democrats, all, they're shut down so tight and they're dying. We're not going to shut down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joe Biden won the debate. He didn't win by a little, this was not close.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Donald Trump was right on his game. I actually think that he completely steward Joe Biden.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are at 11 days until election day. It's an unknown factor if he changed the trajectory of this race here. As so many people have voted, those votes cannot be changed.

TRUMP: I'm the least racist person in this room.

BIDEN: You know who I am, you know who he is. Character of the country is on the ballot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY and our viewers in the United States and all around the world, so, OK, what now? We saw the candidates together, probably for the last time until the inauguration, so what's different this morning with just 11 days left to vote? Now that we have seen the final debate? A new CNN poll found that viewers thought that Joe Biden won the debate, a 14- point edge.