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Cuomo Prime Time
Biden: It's An "Embarrassment" Trump Won't Concede, But Transition Is "Well Underway"; Transition Delay Threatens National Security And Public Safety; Study: COVID-19 Patients At Higher Risk Of Being Diagnosed With A Psychiatric Disorder. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 10, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: --lot of reward of here.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes, Sanjay, appreciate it. Thank you. Good information.
News continues. Let's hand it over to Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME." Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: All right, thank you, Coop.
I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
President-Elect Biden once warned Trump would become even more irrational when the walls closed in. He was right, and then some.
But the real problem, your real focus for your outrage, and you should be outraged, isn't just Trump doing what he does worst, but all the Republicans motivating the madness, like this guy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senator, have you congratulated Vice President Biden yet?
SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why not?
JOHNSON: There's nothing to congratulate him about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Senator Johnson "I'm just a businessman trying to get things done," boy, did he learn the game fast? Remember him, and all those who stand by, and watch the trumpery, firing the Head of Operation Warp Speed, the Secretary of Defense, and now two main Pentagon officials?
And replaced by who? Not just loyalists, but radioactive-righties like Retired Brigadier General Anthony Tata, who was previously nominated to be Undersecretary of Defense for Policy, only to be removed for, among other things, calling President Obama a terrorist leader.
Also, remember what Secretary of State Mike Pompeo just said about this transition.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: There will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: His defenders said, "Oh, he was just joking." He was asked point-blank if he was serious tonight, over on State TV. What do you think he said? He didn't say he was joking.
They think they're going to get by with this, and that once Biden is in, they'll go back to being "Principled conservatives, who just worry about the Constitution." Enough! Your outrage cannot end at the polls. Never forget their perfidy.
And we know why it's going on. Mitch McConnell, you know what he's doing. He's making a play to get that base to vote in the Georgia special elections. He can't do anything that's anti-Trump before that. He's afraid he'll lose those special elections and the Senate.
And how about these others? Rubio? Cruz? Graham? What do you think? They want to run in 2024. They want to be the next Trump. They want his base to love them. It will never happen.
In contrast, President-Elect Biden is already playing the game of being measured, all right? No wonder that a record number of people voted for him. He was ahead of the loser at the last count by over 4.5 million votes, a spanking. And this message is why.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D) PRESIDENT-ELECT: We are already beginning the transition, we're well underway. And the ability for the Administration in any way by failure to recognize this, our win, does not change the dynamic at all, in what we're able to do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you say to the Americans that are anxious over the fact that President Trump has yet to concede and what that might mean for the country?
BIDEN: Well, I just think it's an embarrassment, quite frankly. The only thing that - how can I say this tactfully? I think it will not help the President's legacy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Now, look, on the one hand, I get it. Keep that same energy, Mr. President-Elect. In like four days, he's done more to be reassuring to this country than the other guy did in four years. All right, I got you. And good news for Biden supporters and, frankly, for the country, he continues to gain ground in the voting. Just take a look at why this election should be over.
Wisconsin, Biden is up by more than 20,000 votes. Pennsylvania up by more than 46,000 votes. What about ruby-red Georgia? Biden up by more than 12,000 votes, all right? Another red state, Arizona, OK, Biden leads by more than 14,000 votes. That one is a little close, got to watch it. Nevada, he leads by more than 36,000 votes.
Michigan, he's up by more than 148,000 votes. And yet today, the Trump campaign didn't just say it's going to file suit in Michigan, didn't offer you any proof, only a conclusion. "We're filing suit, we won't tell you on what, but we are telling you he'll be declared the winner of this election."
Based on what? Keep saying that to yourself. Nothing other than this caustic chorus of Republi-can't cronies that will apparently do anything to destroy a peaceful transition in a democracy?
[21:05:00]
Again, remember, for Trump & Co. to be right, mail-in ballots would have to have been manipulated by Democrats, and Republicans alike, in several different states, coordinated for months. And the ballots would have to be fixed to steal votes from Trump but only Trump, because the same ballots gave advantage to a lot of Senate candidates, and candidates for Congress, and candidates for state legislature for Republicans.
So, they coordinated with both parties to go after Trump, and beat him, but give the Senate, in all likelihood, to the Republicans? Look, it doesn't make any sense, and that's why they have no proof of the same.
Remember what they are trying to pull. These are the people many of you supported when they said that "Democrats shouldn't question the 2018 results," right? "Where is the proof? You can't just complain. That's being a sore loser." Remember that?
Remember during the impeachment? "We need proof. Why are we having hearings? We haven't even seen the proof yet. What's happening?" Remember this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): These House Democrats decided due process is too much work, they'd rather impeach with no proof.
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): This is as clear as it gets, but these guys want to keep stirring it up, based on no direct evidence whatsoever.
REP. DOUG COLLINS (R-GA): Presumption has now become the standard instead of proof. It should cause anyone to begin to question because the entire case is built on a presumption. REINCE PRIEBUS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: You can have all the smoke in the world, but if you're going to impeach a president, and you're going to convict him, you actually have to have the direct proof, and they haven't done it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Where is Reince now? Where is Collins now? He got laughed out of a race. Where are the other guys now? Mr. Ohio? Mr. Kentucky? Where are you now? Why aren't you standing up right now for your constituents and this country? Why not?
We need no proof of their perfidy other than their own words. Check out State TV.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOMI LAHREN, HOST, "FOX NATION": First of all, the Democrats always call it unfair when they lose, so that's first and foremost. But we need to understand this is becoming a pattern with the Democratic Party.
KATIE PAVLICH, TOWNHALL EDITOR, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: This continuing, you know, refusal to accept the legitimacy of elections when you just don't like the outcome, we keep hearing all about attacks on democracy, the delegitimization of our elections. Not accepting a result just because you don't like it without any evidence to back up your claims of voter suppression or voter fraud even that causes real problems.
ARI FLEISCHER, BUSH CAMPAIGN SPOX DURING RECOUNT: The entire integrity of a democracy rests on elections that are meaningful and accepted. And you can't, after the ninth inning is played, the game is over, and one team wins, say "I've unilaterally decided we're going to go into extra innings, and we're counting the runs differently."
MIKE HUCKABEE, FORMER GOVERNOR OF ARKANSAS: One of the big things Democrats are going to have to decide is will they become a Party that will accept the results of an election?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: No shame in their game!
But you must remember, also, I must remember, kudos to Trevor Noah and "The Daily Show" team, you know, the classical music, you know, with the classic balderdash that they're putting there is a perfect marriage.
And it makes sense that "The Daily Show" keeps staying ahead on the clips, because this is pure comedy. However, it's not funny.
We know how it should go. Look, today, in history, four years ago today, that's Vice President Biden, and you know who's with him? Vice President-Elect Pence, doesn't seem comfortable being touched. This is what it's supposed to look like, helping to foster a smooth transition.
Also four years ago today, President-Elect Trump himself being extended the traditional courtesy by someone he said wasn't even born in this country, acknowledgment for his victory, a pledge from then- President Obama for help with a smooth transition to his presidency. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My number one priority, in the coming two months, is to try to facilitate a transition that ensures our President-Elect is successful.
We now are going to - want to do everything we can to help you succeed, because if you succeed, then the country succeeds.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: That from a President, and now we're hearing from Trump who is no President, he's a dissident at best, and a revenant, in the main, a revenant, a dead man halting the halls of a country in crisis.
So, we get what's going on. The question is what do we do about it? First thing is, you got to keep that energy up, too.
You've got to be outraged by this, because if this dead man walking, and his zombie pals in Congress are looking to make this transition into a complete horror show, the only thing that's going to stop them is the outrage of what they know just bit them in the behinds at the polls, you, coming out and being active like they did not expect.
So, let's talk about why this is happening and what can be done. David Axelrod, and David Gregory, gentlemen, thank you.
[21:10:00]
First, we deal with what can be done. All right, let's start on the progressive side first. Axe, what does Biden and his people do in a situation like this?
DAVID AXELROD, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I kind of think, Chris, they do what they're doing, which is to keep moving forward with their transition and let the process run.
I mean there is going to be - they're going to run out of runway on the other side here. These cases are going to fail. These lawsuits are going to fail. The counts are going to become official, and Joe Biden is going to be President of the United States.
The problem is that in the process, they are trying to delegitimate him. You know there's a poll, this morning, that said 70 percent of Republicans said it wasn't a free and fair election, 78 percent said that mail-ballots led to widespread fraud. I mean they are buying the storyline of the President. So, I think Joe Biden is on track here. He's going to be the President, but he's going to be a president who is looked on with suspicion by large numbers of Americans because his predecessor engineered it that way, set the circumstances up for that to be the case, and then you have the other issue of the transition itself.
Biden is on track. He's doing what he needs to do. But despite what he says, it is beneficial to have landing teams at the agencies, to be briefed up, to have a connection between your teams, as he did, as President Obama did, when President Bush handed him the reins, and that is - that is going to set him back a little.
CUOMO: Boy, I'll tell you, just the heart and head moment here, David. Your heart, we had over 61,000 hospitalizations today, November 10th. We've never seen anything like it. And this is when you play this game? This is when you do this?
So then, David, what is the obvious reason? Why would the Republicans be in line with this sell-out move?
DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, AUTHOR, "HOW'S YOUR FAITH?": Well you outlined it off the top.
I mean they're giving President Trump room because he still has a death grip on the grassroots of the Republican Party. He's not going away. One way or the other he's going to be a political force.
And for those who care about Senate control for the Republican Party, or who are looking ahead to 2024, they still fear Donald Trump. He'll have a lot of sway. So I'm sure the thinking is, why push him?
Everything that Trump is doing is completely in character with everything we've seen from since - from him since he announced his run for the presidency. So, there is nothing particularly surprising. So, I think Republicans don't see an advantage in calling him out and pushing him.
Give him a little bit more runway the courts will ultimately take care of it by denying all these lawsuits. Others who have made claims are now recanting. There's nothing there.
CUOMO: And they think - and they think that 75 million people that just came out to reject Trump won't remember what they're doing right now with people like me and you reminding them every five minutes?
GREGORY: Right. But, Chris, but remember, I mean the flip side of that poll that Axe just cited is how many Democrats have thought Trump was illegitimate? I mean this is the problem. We're living in an age that goes back now a generation where roughly half the country thinks the other side's President is illegitimate.
CUOMO: But they don't think he didn't win the election.
GREGORY: And act accordingly.
CUOMO: They don't think he didn't win the election. Hillary capitulated that night.
GREGORY: Right, but a lot of other Republicans - Democrats didn't. But what's important is that she did, so I'm agreeing with you.
CUOMO: Yes.
GREGORY: And what's important here is that Trump hasn't, and people will follow his lead. That's what matters.
Four years ago today, President Obama welcomed President Trump. He was shocked. He didn't want to be in that position, but there it was. That's what's so unbecoming and dangerous--
CUOMO: Right.
GREGORY: --for the country.
CUOMO: Axe, did Obama - was it hard for him to go and sit with Trump, of all people, pushing that birther thing, crushing him to the end? Can't tell in his demeanor, but Obama was a tough read, you know?
AXELROD: Yes. No, look, I think it was hard for him. But he, like President Bush, before him - look, we were tough on George W. Bush in our campaign in 2008. And yet, he could not have been more cooperative, more helpful, more cordial, in every single way during the transition of 2008.
Not because he loved everything that we said, but because he thought it was his duty, as a trustee, of the democracy to hand over the reins in good shape and give the next president a chance to get a good start. And that's what President Obama thought--
CUOMO: Right.
AXELROD: --in 2016. And that is what is not happening now, because - because Donald Trump is just moving his show down the street. He's going to be dogging Joe Biden every single day.
GREGORY: Right.
CUOMO: Well he's not--
AXELROD: And he wants to create that sense that this whole thing is--
[21:15:00]
CUOMO: He's not even going down the street though, Axe. He got rid of the Secretary of Defense, who is fundamental to Operation Warp Speed. He just got rid of two other Pentagon officials and put - is trying to put in Tata, of all people.
AXELROD: Yes.
CUOMO: And he's telling the agencies to prepare for a budget. I mean--
AXELROD: Yes. CUOMO: --what does this smell like to you?
AXELROD: No, I understand. I understand what it smells like. I too - I have faith in the institutions of our democracy. And I think, at the end of the day, all of this will, you know, will lead to where it's - where the voters said it will lead to.
But, Chris, the point you make is - there is a different point here, which is an awful lot of damage, can be done, in the next two months, by a president, even on his way out the door. And the firings that we've seen are appalling, and they're alarming. And, you know, and I sense that they're just the beginning--
CUOMO: Right.
AXELROD: --which is a great concern.
CUOMO: I got you. D. Greg, last word to you.
GREGORY: But you also mentioned the virus. I mean I was just talking to a friend of mine, in the Chicago area, who said that the hospitalizations are risking overrunning their hospitals There are not enough nurses that it's going to be much worse than the spring.
And the Trump Administration deserves credit for Warp Speed and the progress on a vaccine. But we're losing ground now because he's hunkering down in a corner because he made a decision not to allow his own voters to get mail-in ballots.
He's embarrassed. And now, he's taking the country through this, when there is some real work that has to be done in a transition.
CUOMO: Imagine what happens, two months from now, if we haven't figured out how to retool our efforts against this pandemic. It is eating us alive.
Axe, David, thank you, fellas. Appreciate you.
AXELROD: OK, thanks.
CUOMO: All right, so, on the one hand, you have Biden. Look, I guess he's doing this the only way you can, right? He's being presidential, he's trying to reassure all of you that this will be fine.
But I'm telling you, you got to be worried about what's happening with all this trumpery, OK? They are undermining democracy. It's not enough to say, "Well, he has every right to question the election." Not without basis!
So, what can the Democrats do? Let's turn to a Biden confidant, who is watching things very closely and, by the way, knows how ugly it can get, and how quickly it can get that way.
Representative James Clyburn, let's get some wide eyes on this, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you expect to work with Republicans if they won't even acknowledge you as President-Elect?
BIDEN: They will. They will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Look, I respect it on one hand, OK, the optimism.
But on the other hand, don't you get that fear that the Democrats might get done dirty here? Why? Political divisions are only deepening.
I'm not saying they have a case, but this clearly isn't about legitimate administration of justice or our election. This is a weird plague going on here. Only four GOPers have done anything but kowtow to Crazytown.
Our national security is on the line. We've had more hospitalizations today, from COVID, than ever before. Is this the right move by Biden? Is there any other move for the Democrats?
Here with me right now is House Majority Whip, Democratic Congressman Jim Clyburn.
Congressman, I've leaned on you, many times, over the years, for prospective in hard moments. This one feels like it's fixing to get ugly. Are you guys muscling up for some kind of fight here, if the GOP continues bowing to Trump?
REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): Well thank you very much for having me, Chris.
I do believe that we are in for some rough sledding, but I don't think it's going to get any more uglier than it already has been. I think that you'll see very soon more and more Republicans coming to the realization that this country is much more important than any one person.
What is happening now is a - one person who felt that he was above the Constitution of the country, that he was more important, that any one person in his Party, and I think that there'd be more and more people, in the Republican Party, coming forward to say "Enough is enough."
We do know that although Trump's base, as he calls it, may be about 30 percent of the people, who just vote.
When it comes down to the Republican Party, the Republican Party is a big part of what makes this country go. And those people, who really work to make this country go, are not going to stand idly by, and watch it cave in.
And I do believe there will be some telephone calls, very soon, saying to a lot of my friends, on the Republican side, "We've gone far enough now. It's time for us to rein things in and get this country moving again."
So, I think that Joe Biden knows a little bit about what he's talking about here. Remember, Delaware is where so many of these countries or - established. That's been the place where a lot of companies--
CUOMO: Oh, companies? Oh, I got you.
CLYBURN: --I can - and you know the names of many of them.
CUOMO: You lost me there for a second. So, you're saying that you think there is going to be some private sector push, telling Republican lawmakers.
CLYBURN: Yes.
CUOMO: Where does that optimism come from? I mean, these guys play by different rules, and with all due respect, Congressman, often to better effect than your Party does. They are on one page.
"No proof? No worries." No shame in their game. That doesn't bother you at all?
[21:25:00]
CLYBURN: Yes, it does. And you're right about that. My Party has been much more respectful of tradition, much more respective of constitutional principles.
That's why you saw Al Gore - nobody should have been upset more than Al Gore back in 2000. 527 votes, yet he still took the high road. You saw Hillary Clinton taking the high road. And so, my Party has always done that.
And I just had a friend of mine just say to me, just yesterday, "I'm now beginning to see what you've been trying to tell me about the hypocrisy among these Republicans." This is a guy who thought of himself as being a Republican, and always gave me a hard time for being a Democrat. He's now telling me he now sees what I've been telling him.
The hypocrisy here is so great, until I think more and more people are going to see it, and says, "They're more about themselves than they are about preserving the integrity of this democracy."
This country is an experiment. And we have been trying to reconcile the differences, one of which is fundamental to the country's existence. 401 years ago, we had - Blacks were brought into this country. And we have wrestled with a race issue ever since.
And we are really at the edge of real catastrophic consequences, if we do not stop this foolishness. Bring this country back together. Let's get this economy going again. Let's get our kids back in school. Let's get the people back to work. Let's get health restored into the American people.
We cannot do this following the dictates of any one person. We got to do it as a collective here in this country.
CUOMO: I hear you.
CLYBURN: As we've always done it.
CUOMO: I hear you. But they have a collective on their side. And my question becomes - I know you guys are standing by and watching and hoping for the best, but hopefully you're preparing for the worst as well.
What if they go to the state legislatures, and say, "Forget about the vote. We don't trust it, right? Pick your own electors." State legislatures can do that in a bunch of the states.
CLYBURN: Yes, they can do that. But I don't think they can do that to the tune of 270. There is no question about that. Some of them may accommodate them. But I don't believe that in the State of New York, for instance if--
CUOMO: It's not happening in New York. I'm talking about like in Wisconsin, or in Georgia, or in Arizona. It's not happening in New York. New York is not your problem.
CLYBURN: No.
CUOMO: You got the "Love Gov." over there. But I'm talking about in these other states. What if they go bad on the vote?
CLYBURN: I don't think that's a problem in Pennsylvania either.
I really don't think that's going to be a problem in Pennsylvania. They may attempt to do that in Pennsylvania, but the Constitution is clear. And I know it gives the legislatures the authority, to elect electors, as they would have them be.
But look, if you got all the electors, I don't believe you're going to go to Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, and get them to elect Republican electors, when the Democrat won. I just don't think you're going to have that.
It may happen. And then I've been telling people for a long time now, I'm beginning to see what happened in Germany back in the 1930s. I never thought that could happen in this country. How do you elect a person president then all of a sudden give him the authority to be dictator? That's what we are teetering on here.
That's what Hitler did in Germany. He was elected Chancellor. And then, because he successfully discredited the news media, took over the churches. I cannot see that happening here. It may happen. But if it did that means that the American people are much more - less, I should say, intelligent than I think they are.
CUOMO: Boy, this is some heavy - these are some heavy days. Congressman, every time we say "Oh, it can't get any crazier than this," I have so many - so many welts on my tongue from biting it after saying those things.
But I joke, but just so I keep from crying.
These are hard days, and I hope your Party is ready to fight for the democracy, and find ways to make these Republicans come to their senses. I know they're afraid of the base. But they've got to value something more than that at some point.
Congressman Jim Clyburn, thank you for your perspective on this, and your efforts going forward.
CLYBURN: Thank you very much for having me.
CUOMO: All right, God bless.
America's first Counterterrorist Czar, Richard Clarke, we bought him in tonight, why, because this isn't just politics. "Oh, which side is going to win?" Yes, on one level.
[21:30:00]
But most hospitalizations ever from COVID today. Two months of this, then where are we? Biden not getting briefed, on national security, the world on fire half the time?
What matters? What can happen with this White House blocking the next President from the critical Intel and assets that he needs? Somebody who knows that answer, next.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: Look, we know COVID is a crisis. Just today, we had over 60,000 hospitalizations. That is most of any single day that we've had. But what about the threats that aren't public that a President-Elect needs to know about?
[21:35:00]
Why raise this? Well, we've lived it to great disadvantage. It's part of our 9/11 legacy. Do you remember what the Commission found about the impact of a transition delay on the Bush Administration? Richard Clarke does. He lived it as President Bush's Counterterrorism Czar.
It's good to see you, friend.
RICHARD CLARKE, SPECIAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENTS CLINTON, BUSH: Good to be with you, Chris.
CUOMO: The finding of the Commission was that the delay in transition because of the litigation made a material difference in the preparedness of the Administration for the extent threat of terror.
CLARKE: Yes, I know that was their conclusion. I'm not sure it's true, because that transition, the Clinton Counterterrorism team in the White House, all of it stayed on into the Bush Administration. So, the expertise continued. That's not always the case.
I've been through three transitions, twice in the White House and once on the Transition Team, and things happen during transition times. The world doesn't stop. George Bush invaded Somalia after he lost his bid for re-election, and he left that steaming pile for Bill Clinton.
So, you don't know what's going to happen. The world continues on. There are people out there, who may want to take advantage of what they think is chaos in the U.S. Iran might, North Korea might, even Russia and China might.
CUOMO: What they think is chaos, you say. If you were designing a course--
CLARKE: Yes.
CUOMO: --could you come up with an uglier set of circumstances short of complete chaos than what we're dealing with right now?
CLARKE: Well, yes. I remember 2000, and we didn't know who the president was until December 13th. So, that was pretty chaotic as well.
CUOMO: But you knew what the case was, Richard. You knew what the case was. You know about the machines. It was finite. The recounts were a nightmare. I think about a quarter inch of my hairline went during that period.
But this is based on nothing. I mean, you're a brilliant writer. You couldn't come up with a plot like this, Democrats and Republicans manipulating ballots, but only to rob the President, but still allow Republicans' down-ballot to win? What's the chance that this guy--
CLARKE: Yes, because--
CUOMO: --has even a shot? And look at all the GOP-ers lining up behind him.
CLARKE: Well, for now, for now. I think that everybody in Washington knows how this is going to come out, and the Republicans are just humoring him, because he's still going to be a potent force, even when he leaves office.
But Chris, ask yourself what happens, if somebody wants to settle a score during this period?
CUOMO: Yes.
CLARKE: What if, for example, Iran, which is, still wanting to settle the score for when Trump killed General Soleimani?
What if they tried to settle that score in the next 70 days? And what if Trump responds in a big way, militarily, and he ends up leaving a war going on with Iran as his gift to Biden? That's not inconceivable.
What if North Korea decides to do something? What if China or Russia - what if Russia makes moves in Ukraine during this period, and Trump doesn't respond, and then Biden has to come in, and the first thing he has to deal with, instead of the virus, instead of the economy, is some armed conflict overseas? That could happen.
CUOMO: In terms of the what-ifs, what is the most likely burden that any substantial delay would put on this next president?
CLARKE: Well, it depends on what this President does during these next 70 days.
The Biden team, including the Vice President - former Vice President, they're pros. They know more about national security than any group ever coming into the White House. They don't need a lot of transition time. They're already doing it without the help of the White House.
Yes, they're not getting the Intelligence briefings. But you got to believe, Chris, that there are people in the Intelligence Community, who would tell them something, if there was something important for them to know.
CUOMO: All right, I'll accept that. But just on the pandemic alone, 70 days of the continued path with the rate of escalation of the virus could put us in a real catastrophic situation, as he comes in, where he doesn't have any really good choices.
CLARKE: Yes. So, there are things that require the President to act, and there are things that the government handles by itself beneath him.
And the pandemic, probably at this point, requires presidential leadership, and we're not going to get that. He isn't doing any work. You look at his schedule. He's just watching you and other people all day long. He's not doing any work. He's not running the government.
You know, I've worked for three presidents, who worked up until noon on January 20th. They were on the job. This guy hasn't been on the job for weeks.
[21:40:00]
CUOMO: Richard Clarke, you made us feel a little bit better, that maybe--
CLARKE: I hope so.
CUOMO: --there's enough going on at different levels that we should be OK. But certainly this doesn't help. But your perspective always does, so thank you, my friend, for being on the show.
CLARKE: Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: All right.
All right, so let's get a little bit more practical perspective on this. Rich was great. But I'm saying from someone who ran the General Services Administration. That's this new acronym you've been introduced to, the GSA that refused to sign off on Biden's transition. What does this mean?
Denise Turner Roth used to run the GSA. Thank you very much for joining us.
DENISE TURNER ROTH, FORMER GSA ADMINISTRATOR: Thank you, Chris. It's good to be with you.
CUOMO: So, some people have tried to assuage any fear. "Don't worry. There are lots of levels of government. This doesn't really matter." Kind of feels like it matters. Should we be worried that the GSA hasn't signed off on the transition?
ROTH: Well, it certainly is an important moment in terms of the history and transfer of government. GSA by law is responsible for the transition of government.
And when we talk about the size of government, remember, we're talking about 4 million employees, including military, about 100 agencies in the running of those operations, and the transition in leadership to that is very much dependent on the presidential transition process.
I think that one of the key aspects here is when do we ensure that the incoming president and that team has an understanding of the current operations, and is able to take over day one. I think that's the biggest risk and challenge at this point.
CUOMO: So, what if you have a bunch of pros come in, in with you, and everybody has been in Washington or even the White House before? What inconveniences does this still pose?
ROTH: And certainly the Biden transition team has a stalwart group of people that are very much informed and prepared.
I think that the part that I would think about is in terms of what has been happening at the agencies currently? What work has been underway, what policies and decisions have been made, what's on deck?
You want them to be able to pick up on January 20th without hesitation, and the time that they have to take to transition and understand what's been occurring and what's going to happen next is time lost, and you don't want them to reinvent the wheel.
And certainly, we're at an important moment. We're at an important moment with the Coronavirus and how that's playing out. I think that the - obviously there's been a strong team assembled with the Biden campaign.
But their ability to understand what's happening today, what efforts are currently in place, what we know, and what we don't know, all those things are hindered by not having the transition take place.
CUOMO: There have been some odd things that have happened with the GSA under this President, but we'll leave the politics to the side. Have you ever heard of a GSA not signing off on a transition before?
ROTH: I mean, certainly, we had this moment in 2000. With the presidential transition at that time, there have been concerns, and I think that that you all have reported about that.
Certainly the finding of the 9/11 Commissions pointed to the lateness and the lack of transition to having had an impact on the Administration not being as prepared as they could have been. That is an unfortunate aspect.
But the point to that overall is when that delay occurred it does have an ongoing follow-on impact that can happen.
CUOMO: Right. Richard Clarke doesn't completely agree that it had a negative effect, but certainly the Commission thought enough of it to put it in.
Denise Turner Roth, thank you for giving us some context and understanding to why this matters. It's not just some bureaucratic checkmark on a list of to-do things. Thank you very much. Appreciate you and appreciate your service to the country.
ROTH: Thank you. Good to be with you.
CUOMO: OK. Now again, I keep coming back to COVID because COVID is everything for us, economy, our kids, our livelihoods, our emotions, right, our well-being.
Shattering a record for hospitalizations, now there is a new study that I have to tell you about. I don't want to tell you about. We worked hard to make sure I had to tell you about it.
But this long-haul thing is getting worse. And it's getting more insidious. It's getting more sneaky. It's manifesting itself in ways that people may not see. It's not just their body, it's their mind.
We're going to have to bring in the Chief Doctor on this to talk about new guidance from the CDC that seems like it should have come out months ago, and this study about long-haulers and mental health that is not going to make a lot of people happy in this country tonight, next.
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CUOMO: We have two sad pieces of information about Coronavirus, but they're very important.
First, I think maybe proof of Trump effect. He loses. And right after, the CDC comes out with guidance about wearing masks that he never allowed them to give. So we'll go through that.
But also, we have these daily infections as well as hospitalizations are at an all-time high. What does that mean for us? And then, we have this study about mental illness and long-haul COVID symptoms.
Let's bring in the Chief Doctor Sanjay Gupta.
Sanj, thank you very much for joining us. Do you agree with me that--
GUPTA: Hey, Chris.
CUOMO: --they didn't put this guidance out, which is totally obvious that you wear a mask not just for the people around you, but for yourself, and that if we increase mass use - mask use by 15 percent, it could have huge economic positive impact.
We've always known this. They just wouldn't say it because of him. Is that's what's going on here?
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GUPTA: Well I think you are right that this it seems like we've known this a long time. This is coming out pretty late.
And we've always sort of little bit - been a little bit hamstrung by this, as we've reported on it, because we've always said, "Hey, according to the CDC, these masks are primarily serving as source control," meaning that they are, at the source, the person who is wearing it, they are protecting people around them by wearing the mask. That's the source control.
But the idea that it also helps protect the wearer seemed, frankly, like common sense. But the CDC always shied away from saying that.
What they say now is that based on plenty of epidemiological evidence, looking at communities where people wear masks, seeing who's protected, looking at the experiment, how the virus actually travels, they are ready to conclude that there is a benefit to both the wearer and the people around the wearer.
So, again, I think we have known this for a while. Why it wasn't out there, I don't know, Chris. I mean I will say this. These organizations have seemed more emboldened to say things that they hadn't been saying for a while.
I've been covering this for eight months. We're hearing people being more emboldened to say things that I think they have been thinking, and to see the guidance actually reflect that.
Also the point you made, they say that you could save a trillion dollars for the economy if 15 percent increase in mask usage around the country. You are not used to seeing that sort of guidance in a CDC document, but there it is. So, it's an important fact as well.
CUOMO: And you've been making the point. I know Tony Fauci made the point that even with a vaccine you can't not do the other prophylaxis that it's going to take too long to get the kind of protection the vaccine can give no matter how good its efficacy, if we're not maintaining the other measures.
And then, we have this study that came out which--
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: --you and I knew this was going to come. We've been hearing too much.
Too many people who get COVID, even with mild symptoms, sometime later start getting diagnosed with freaky stuff, whether it's hypertension, or blood clots. Brain fog is now translating into depression and anxiety and other things.
What does this study say that pops out to you?
GUPTA: Yes, Chris. And I got to tell you. I mean you are my friend. Every time I hear about these long-hauler studies, I always think about you, and how you are doing.
And I mean what this study shows - it's a big study, first of all. It looked at 62,000 Coronavirus patients, people who have been diagnosed with the disease, and basically tried to figure out what were some of these other long-hauling symptoms.
And one of the ones they sort of drilled down on were psychiatric symptoms, specifically. We can show what they were looking for specifically. But what they found, basically, was quite extraordinary.
About one in five, 18 percent of people within three months of their diagnosis did have some sort of psychiatric diagnosis. It can be from anxiety disorders to insomnia, depression, even, early onset dementia.
Now, this is you do see these types of correlations with other illnesses. Even the flu, 13 percent of people, who recovered from flu are also subsequently diagnosed with something. Doesn't mean that it's persistent, it lasts. And that's a limitation with this study as well, so in 90 days. So, we don't know.
Long-hauling is still an arbitrary timeline at this point. We know symptoms linger. And as you and I have talked about it, it doesn't seem to be correlated to the initial severity of symptoms. I thought it would be. I thought the sicker you were in the first place, the more likely the symptoms were to linger. It's actually not the case.
CUOMO: Yes, I mean--
GUPTA: You come in with mild symptoms initially, can have lingering symptoms.
CUOMO: I want to put this out there for two reasons. One, you do not want to get this virus, even if it's going to be asymptomatic. It's no guarantee. And if you're young, it's no guarantee that nothing happens. Percentages are on your side. But also, there are so many people out there desperate--
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: --to be heard. They have no doctor who can help them. Nobody understands this long-haul stuff or even Coronavirus really. And they are either told "You will be fine," or they are not given the treatment.
So, we need the studies to come out to give a higher level of recognition, so people can get some help. We are no way done with this. In fact, it keeps getting worse. That's why we need you, Dr. Gupta. You keep us on the straight. You keep us on the real. And I thank you for it.
GUPTA: Any time, brother. Any time!
CUOMO: Be well, Sanjay. And we both know I had problems in my head, long before COVID. We'll be right back.
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CUOMO: All right. Thank you very much for watching. It's my favorite time of the night. CNN with D. Lemon starts right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON: Look at that a whole--
CUOMO: 45 seconds early, so shut up!
LEMON: How did you manage that? Oh! Whoa!
CUOMO: A few times--
LEMON: Now, man!
CUOMO: --a few times I have been late in giving Don the show.
LEMON: Like last night?
CUOMO: And that is not respectful. Last night it was OK because of who I was talking about.
LEMON: But last night, it was fine. I was saying--
CUOMO: But--
LEMON: --it's totally fine. That was too bad.
CUOMO: I owed him some time. I want him to have the time. And I love talking to you.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: More the better.
LEMON: How are you doing?
CUOMO: I am not feeling this optimism that Jim Clyburn - look, I am no one to disrespect him. He's got incredible perspective. He's been through the wars on Capitol Hill. No question.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: But I see the Democrats kind of sitting back and waiting for cooler heads to prevail. Since when?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: They are making something up out of whole cloth.
LEMON: Nothing. CUOMO: For Trump to be right, Republicans and Democrats, in concerted action, connived, to steal an election from him, in different states, where on the same ballot, only he got screwed.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: But all the Republicans' down-ballot--
