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Ohio's Governor Issues New Restrictions As Cases Surge; Coronavirus Cases Rising in States Across U.S.; President-Elect Joe Biden Names Ron Klain as Chief of Staff; Trump White House Preventing President-Elect Biden from Receiving Daily Presidential Briefings. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired November 12, 2020 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: New hospitalizations. This morning Dr. Sanjay Gupta called this a humanitarian disaster.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: What is President Trump doing about this crisis? Nothing. There's no national plan to keep hundreds of thousands more Americans from dying. The outgoing president has not spoken publicly or answered questions about his campaign against reality and the bogus claims he's making on Twitter. This morning there are new signs that the Trump administration is impeding a peaceful transfer of power to Joe Biden. And now an influential Republican senator is threatening to take action on Biden's behalf.

BERMAN: Joining us now, CNN political correspondent Abby Phillip and CNN political and national security analyst David Sanger. Abby, I want to start with the news that matters, frankly, which is what the presidential transition is doing, things that will have an impact over the next several months, and that's Joe Biden naming Ron Klain as his White House chief of staff. What message does this send, and what kind of person is Ron Klain?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, the relationship between Joe Biden and Ron Klain goes back decades, and I think that is the first message that it sends, which is that this is a person, Joe Biden, who coming into office will have at his disposal just among the deepest benches I think of any president in recent history because he, himself, has been in government for so long and has had these relationships.

But I think secondly, Ron Klain is someone who led the Ebola response for the Obama administration, and also was among the first to ring the alarm about this coronavirus pandemic. And he has been an adviser to Joe Biden on this issue throughout this process. It signals that Biden understands that the pandemic is going to be the single most important problem for him to solve as president, and that's saying a lot considering that Joe Biden back in 2008 came into office with Barack Obama dealing with an enormous financial crisis.

My understanding from people who are close to Biden is that he views this current crisis in a very similar vein, and he wants the most experienced people around him, and I think that's the message he's sending to the American people about his priorities, but also the contrast with the current administration in the lack of experience that has characterized the president's appointments from the very beginning.

CAMEROTA: And yet, David, we have 69 more days to be hung out to dry, to just be left swinging here during this pandemic that gets worse every single day, and the death toll goes up every single day because Joe Biden isn't in the office yet. And, similarly, we're also vulnerable in terms of national security. I know you've been looking into this. And he's being denied the presidential daily briefing, the highest level of it. So we're vulnerable on so many fronts right now.

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, we are, Alisyn. And it's this oddity of the moment in which you can feel power ebbing away every hour from the White House. Foreign leaders calling into Biden, the attention focusing really more to Wilmington. Ron Klain's ascension means you're going to begin to hear more and more about what Americans should be doing on the coronavirus front, even though the president has not addressed it really since Election Day at all, as the numbers have gotten worse.

And yet there are great opportunities and vacuums here. The activity under way in the Pentagon where they're putting in loyalists makes you wonder is this going to be the moment where the Israelis see a free two months to go act against Iran and its nuclear program? Could you see the Chinese or others acting out in a moment that they recognize that President Trump is not really fully in charge, and yet, of course, President-elect Biden doesn't have the authority to respond or even to have substantive conversations with foreign leaders.

BERMAN: David, if I could put this up on the screen, it is interesting because it's been noted that more foreign leaders have acknowledged Joe Biden's victory than Republican senators. But there are a few foreign leaders who have not, and that list is instructive. It includes Vladimir Putin, it includes Bolsonaro of Brazil, it includes Xi Jinping of China, and also AMLO down in Mexico. Why? Why not, from these?

SANGER: Certainly, for the first three, these are three authoritarians who benefited from dealing with President Trump, who said he respected their power and their authority, and who rarely got in their way on issues of human rights or questions of whether or not they were abiding by international law. The president only really turned on China after the crisis of the virus began, and he, of course, was blaming China for it.

[08:05:09]

I think they're stuck right now. Putin recognizes that President Biden is coming after him. President-elect Biden has said in a statement to me for a story earlier this week that he was pretty clear what he was planning to go do in dealing with Russia far more harshly than President Trump ever has.

I think the Chinese are trying to figure it out at this moment, John, because we recognize that Donald Trump was the man who was mostly interested in cutting deals, and I'm not sure that that's going to be Biden's initial reaction. At the same time President-elect Biden is going to have to figure out hard issues with them early on, including how you're going to distribute coronavirus vaccine fairly around the world.

CAMEROTA: Abby, when does this obstructionism on national security and our national health end? It was interesting that Senator James Lankford, a Republican, said yesterday that he's giving the administration basically until tomorrow to start briefing President- elect Biden with these -- all of this national security intel that he's entitled to, or he's going to take some action. And so will we start hearing more of that today?

PHILLIP: Yes, well, I think that part certainly could end as soon as tomorrow, but there are some other problems, including that a lot of the calls that you just discussed, they were made not in a secure environment because the State Department has not facilitated that part of the transition, either. So you have Joe Biden having conversations with other foreign leaders basically kind of on an open mic, and without the help of the State Department to facilitate the calls, for translation services, those kinds of things.

So there are layers of this even beyond the presidential daily briefing that need to be resolved, and probably as quickly as possible. I still think that there are real questions about whether or not there will be continued risks to national security. If there continue to be delays in getting transition officials with the Biden transition security clearances, and getting them into these national security -- getting these landing teams into these national security agencies. I think we have a long way to go, and there needs to be more movement, but that is largely up to President Trump because he remains the head of the executive branch.

And the only thing I think that might move the president at this point is if more Republicans speaks up more loudly and, frankly, more clearly, because even what James Lankford is saying, Senator Lankford is saying in that statement, seems to leave open the possibility that the president can overturn the results of the election, which we all know is not going to happen. So I think more clarity on the Republican side is definitely necessary to get the president moving along on this.

BERMAN: I'm laughing because Karl Rove wrote this op-ed that was 2,000 words, and six of them were basically but nothing is going to overturn the outcome of the election. He had to put the other 2,500 words there just to placate the president, but those six words are probably the most important. Abby Phillip, thanks to you. David Sanger, great to see you. Thanks so much.

SANGER: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta calls, this morning, the record breaking and deadly pandemic in the United States a full-blown humanitarian disaster. President Trump is doing nothing about the crisis. We discuss what the Biden transition team plans to do next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:12:18]

CAMEROTA: Just this morning Dr. Sanjay Gupta told us that the deadly coronavirus pandemic in the U.S. has turned into a humanitarian disaster. The U.S. set another record for new cases yesterday, more than 144,000. More than 65,000 people are waking up in the hospital this morning, that's the highest ever. The death count is also breaking records. So Sanjay is back with us now, along with Michael Osterholm, he is the director of the Center of Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. He is also a member of President-elect Joe Biden's COVID-19 advisory board. It's great to have both of you with us on this important mornning. Sanjay, what makes it a humanitarian crisis now?

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I've covered a lot of humanitarian crises around the world. There is sometimes a singular event, like an earthquake or some sort of natural disaster, or a series of events. I've covered famines. I've covered natural disasters. And now this pandemic I think is the worst. I think before now I think the earthquake in Haiti was the toughest story I think I ever covered, and some 250,000 people died there over that year in 2010. That's what we're seeing here.

And I think the idea that so many of these deaths that are happening in the United States are preventable just adds to that idea that this is a true humanitarian crisis. The Doctors Without Borders have come to the United States to do their work. They go to the hottest spots in the world, they look at the earth and say, where are we needed? They're needed here in the United States right now.

So I know it's tough to hear. I have already gotten a lot of emails and social about the fact that I call this a humanitarian disaster, but I stand by it. It is. And hopefully it inspires people to do something like this.

BERMAN: This may feel like piling on, but Michael Osterholm, you call this COVID hell that we're entering. Why?

DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR OF INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA: Yes, I agree with Sanjay, and I think that his assessment is right on the mark right now, and I think what both of us realize is where we're actually going. All that we're doing right now doesn't seem to be having much impact on this curve. The case numbers are going up faster and faster every day, both for cases and for hospitalizations and deaths. And so I don't think we have an idea yet where this is going to top out. So imagine how bad it is now, only anticipate what it's going to be like over the weeks and months ahead.

CAMEROTA: And, Michael, in fact, are you suggesting that now is the time -- and I know people don't like to hear this -- for a shutdown, something limited, finite, four to six weeks, and that that could help turn it around?

[08:15:02]

MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA: Well, you know, one of the things that's happened, Alisyn, is that this has become such a polarized issue. You know, when we have this situation going on, our economy is going to suffer miserably. And, you know, I believe that small businesses, schools, health care centers all want to do the right thing, but it's very hard right now without financial support to do that, to keep people apart.

You know, there are a lot of people out there that are scrambling to find work because they are literally in dire straits. What can we do as a government right now to help them help us try to deal with this pandemic? And one of the ways to do that is keep people from having to go into public places unless it's absolutely essential.

We need a financial support for that to happen. That's what we're talking about right now.

BERMAN: So, Sanjay, I know people may feel like they're lost in the numbers, that we say 65,000 people hospitalized, which is a record, an alarming record, but what does that mean? How can you explain to people how bad it is and how much worse this could really get? And I'm talking about soon.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I mean, first of all, you're absolutely right, I was doing this interview with a professor who describes this term compassion fade and basically it's this idea that if I were to tell you the story of one individual and all that was happening to that one individual people really care. If I start to say it's tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people, not only does the amount of compassion go down overall, but -- for each individual but it goes down overall, meaning you have less compassion for thousands of people than you might for that one person.

So, you know, we're seeing that and it's tough. It's tough from a messaging sort of reporting standpoint because people do get lost in these numbers, but what does it mean? I mean, Dr. Osterholm has taught me this, I mean, this idea that ultimately if hospitals become really pushed to the point where they can no longer take patients and people in these communities are trying to get their loved one who is having a hard time breathing into a hospital and they're being told we're full or they have to be moved out of state or to a different region I think it becomes very real for people at that point.

You know, John, I don't know what it would take frankly at this point. I mean, it's really frustrating to be honest with you. We tell you 60,000 people are in the hospital right now because they're sick with COVID. Nearly 250,000 people have died. It should be enough.

If I tell you that the numbers of people who are infected is likely to go to 300,000 by the end of the year, according to the models, that 2,200 people will die every day by the end of January according to the models and 400,000 will have died by February, isn't that enough? I don't know. I guess, John, I'm flailing here on the answer to your question

because I feel like we have explained this over and over again for eight or nine months now and there's solutions. We're not just presenting a problem, we're presenting a problem followed by solutions and yet it's still not resonating for some reason.

CAMEROTA: Well, I mean, it takes leadership and I think that a lot of people do comply when their leaders present the compelling case, I think that here in the Northeast, that's what happened when governors decided that, you know, we had to start buckling up things and people did comply and stay home and wear masks and everything.

So, Dr. Osterholm, do you think that we are on the verge of -- I mean, look, I know each governor does their own thing, in South Dakota, the governor, you know, prides herself on having given freedom to people and you can just see -- I don't know if we have it -- the numbers since people were free to do whatever, you know, she said they should and they wanted, the number has just gone up exponentially there in terms of the cases.

Do you think that we are on the cusp of seeing other governors start to do what you're suggesting?

OSTERHOLM: You know, I think the pain and frustration that you're hearing in Sanjay's voice and mine is one that, as he said, we do know what we can do about this. Look what the Asian countries have done, Australia, New Zealand, they actually have brought this under control.

All we're asking right now is to get us to that vaccine land, you know, wait just a few more months and try to postpone these illnesses and allow people to develop their immunity with the vaccine. It's not like we're asking for months and months and months of this kind of situation.

But we also have to recognize what we're doing is not working. We need to figure out ways to help support business, schools. I mean, how can you run a business when you don't have schools open? Because, in fact, those kids are now at home.

We have got to understand we've got to get this pandemic under control if we're even going to bring back business. So we need new ways to do this, to get people to understand exactly what Sanjay just said.

BERMAN: Sanjay, Michael Osterholm, thank you both so much for being with us.

Obviously people do need to pay attention and we do need leadership and there are some places in the country where they're seeing it. Obviously, Ohio, seeing a record number of coronavirus patients in the hospital.

[08:20:03]

The governor went on TV last night, spoke to the people in that state, issuing new restrictions, taking action. He calls this wave the most intense he's seen. Governor DeWine joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: So how bad is the coronavirus pandemic this morning?

Look at hospitalizations in Ohio, about 3,000 people now hospitalized there. Nearly 1,000 of them checked into the hospital since last Wednesday. A thousand new patients in a week, that's how quickly it's exploding.

Joining us now is the Republican governor of Ohio, Mike DeWine.

Governor DeWine, you went on TV --

GOV. MIKE DEWINE (R), OHIO: Good morning.

BERMAN: -- spoke to the people in Ohio last night. You told them that the pandemic now was more widespread, more intense, more dangerous.

What are you seeing?

DEWINE: Well, you've described it very well. Hospitalizations, you know, a month ago, they were at 1,000. Today, they are 3,000.

[08:25:01]

And in the last week, it's just exploded. Our cases have gone from about 1,000 cases to now 6,000 cases, and our positivity rates have gone from 2.5 to about 12.

So, the numbers, by the numbers, it's just very scary. And, you know, we're seeing this, you know, in our rural areas, the first wave in the spring and then the summer really did not hit our small towns, our small communities. They are really hitting there now. In fact, they're leading as far as the number of cases.

So, you know, one of the things I talked about last night was what people do in their individual lives. You know, we put some additional orders on last night, for example, in regard to masking. We've got a statewide mask order since July, but we're going to send agents out now to start enforcing that in our retail establishments.

But where we're really seeing the huge spread is just people in their own personal lives. We're seeing huge spreads from funerals, weddings, just people getting together to watch football. That's really where we're seeing it spread.

And the message that I gave to people last night is we've just got to wear masks. And if you're outside your bubble, if you're outside people who live in your own household, in your own house, you need to be careful. You need to be wearing a mask because you have no idea whether they have the virus and they don't have an idea many times, and you might be carrying it yourself.

So this mask we've learned does so much. You know, in the spring, we didn't really understand that. Today, we really do.

BERMAN: So, you put some new restrictions in place, you've put some new sanctions in regards to masking if it doesn't happen in stores and penalties in place. What happens if this doesn't work? You also talked about that. What are the metrics you are looking at and what next?

DEWINE: Well, if we don't turn this thing around quickly, you know, we're going to have no choice but to close bars, you know, fitness centers as well. So that will be the next -- the next step.

But, you know, my message to Ohioans is -- it's not so much what I order or what the health department orders, it's really what you do in your individual life. You can control this. And it really is true.

I mean, our schools are doing a phenomenal job. We don't think we're seeing a lot of spread directly in the classroom, and why is that? It's because we mandated that every student, everybody in that school building has to wear a mask.

And, guess what? These kids are doing a phenomenal job, the teachers are doing a phenomenal job, principals and superintendents, and we're not seeing much spread there.

So, it's a good lesson, I think for all of us. If we can do that in school, we ought to be able to do that in our own personal lives.

BERMAN: What message has the president of the United States delivered to the people of Ohio in terms of the pandemic over the last several days?

DEWINE: Well, I don't think we've heard anything in the last several days. You know, one of the things that we're very excited about obviously is the ability to give people shots and, you know, we hope that is coming.

I mean, the White House tells us that's coming in January -- or, excuse me, in December, and we're going to roll it out just as fast as we get it.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: And that's great. And that's terrific news.

DEWINE: Essential workers first.

BERMAN: That's terrific news but that's a while from now.

DEWINE: Oh, no, that's right.

BERMAN: We have to deal with the now. The president hasn't spoken out loud in six days. I'm just curious about what you think about it.

DEWINE: Look, it's not impacting what I do. It's not impacting what we do in Ohio. We're moving forward.

And one of the things I do want to mention, talking about the White House, you know, we have had great communication. The vice president has led this charge. You know, every week, we are on the phone, usually the vice president is there.

And the public doesn't hear it, you don't hear it. But it's governors, Democrat and Republicans, and we are just kind of rolling up our sleeves working with the vice president and working with the people, the doctors that they put on the phone.

So, that's been very helpful, frankly, as we've gone through this.

BERMAN: Well, that's good news and I hope you're getting the support that you need. I am sure that you don't have the time that you have had every four years to pay attention to politics.

But at this point, as you sit here this morning, who do you think won the presidential election?

DEWINE: Look, I think that we need to consider -- the former vice president is the president-elect. Joe Biden is president-elect.

The White House has every -- the president and his campaign has every right to go into court. Our courts are open. Our courts are the best place, frankly, to adjudicate facts.

I'm a former prosecutor. I'm a great believer in the ability to have your courts and go in to make a case, and they have every right to do that and that looks like what they're trying to do.

BERMAN: As far as you can see, how would you assess the merits of their case?

DEWINE: I don't know. Look, I'm worried about this virus.