Return to Transcripts main page
Cuomo Prime Time
Biden: More People May Die If Trump Keeps Obstructing Transition; Biden: Trump's Non-Cooperation Will Set Back Incoming Admin's Ability To Rapidly Distribute A COVID-19 Vaccine; Trump Grows More Erratic As His Presidency Nears End. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 16, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Now tonight, another seeming turn. The senator says he did "step in" with the GSA and talked to them on Friday over the Biden transition. He declined to say who he spoke with and what they had to say.
The news continues right now. I want to hand it over Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME." Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: State TV's got some new competition Anderson. It's going to be very interesting to see how the narrative unfolds. You know for people like us, we do the job based on who's in power but this is going to be very interesting.
You notice what Lankford said there. How the media, not this network is playing his words which were he would get involved. Now he isn't and we know why, he has no good reason. Thank you, my brother for bringing it to light. I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
There is good news tonight and there is bad news and you know what, having both is already progress by recent standards, is it not? The good news, we potentially have a second vaccine, the Moderna vaccine maybe 95 percent nearly affective and it does not need to be stored they're telling us at these extremely cold temperatures like the Pfizer drug, makes it easier to distribute, good.
I would like to say the cavalry is coming but that metaphor is not right and that's the bad news. There is a difference between having a vaccine that can work, which it seems we may and getting all of you vaccinated, a huge difference and experts say the plan to distribute and track is way behind.
The President-elect gets this and gets what's making matters worse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D) PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: More people may die if we don't coordinate. I am hopeful that the president will be mildly more enlightened before we get to January 20.
(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: Look, the planning needs to be done now. Why? This country has
never dealt with getting 300 million people, all ages, stages, regions, you know different living situations, a vaccine entracted it and figured out follow ups. Never and it is an epic task. It demands coordination with the outgoing and incoming administrations. What are they supposed to just come in, bring some people in and say so what's the plan?
It'll never work yet for two weeks, there's been no effort by the transfers except to put Trump's political health first, not your health. Literally Trumpers are risking the fates of so many of you because Trump is upset about his own fate. He's saying it in his tweets, look, I don't think they're worth reading, OK? You can look at them if you want, they're there.
But again, there's good and bad news in this. Trump can lie, he can say he won but he can't compromise your votes. The problem is he can compromise your safety and what we're seeing is every day he gets more desperate so do his words and deeds.
The latest, The New York Times is reporting tonight Pence, Pompeo, Millie who is the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and others had the talk Trump out of a military strike on Iran's main nuclear site in the coming weeks. Seriously? Again, we know his judgment on Iran is no more competent than his lies about the election but again, I submit to you.
The problem is bigger than him. That's why I say Trumpers and the Trumpers will be here after Trump. You cannot forget the men and women in power who are empowering Trump to delay this transition and the key part. They have no basis and fact to do so. They have no justification. It is absolutely OK to go to court to point out, litigate, argue, politicize proof of problems.
We've had over a dozen lawsuits. No court, no Republican state officials, no evidence offered by any credible source justifies any questions about the legitimacy of the outcome. So how do Republicans in Washington justify saying all their questions? Has any of them given you proof to back them up? None.
Well, we should let the process play out. First, they want to play a victim. You know when you say remember them, I say remember them. He's targeting us. Yes, you are being targeted but not because you're victims because you're victimizing the rest of us and people must remember and hold you to account when Trump is no longer there to somehow in your perverse reality spread the sunshine on you.
You know this time is supposed to be for Biden to get up to speed and you know the need for that is unique right now and yet, the Trumpers are keeping Biden back with so many in this country literally dying from a lack of leadership and by the way, while they're saying let the process play out, they're not doing anything with their own legislative process to give you relief, are they?
[21:05:00] Why not? Remember what they did for Trump and remember what they didn't do for you. Proof of my argument, Senator Lankford. Didn't this guy take an oath to have faith and allegiance to the constitution and his duties there under? I didn't see Trump's name in the oath so why does Senator James Langford break his promise?
If they don't give Biden these oaths, you know these briefings by the end of the week, I'll have to step in. Now is going on Newsmax you know, the new competitor to state news over there to figure out who has you know Trump's best interests at heart saying, the media had it wrong. I'm in no hurry to help Biden. That means he's in no hurry to help you.
Once again, clarity on the situation. Fresh eyes come from an Obama. This time it's former First Lady Michelle Obama. Listen to what she said.
"To play along with these groundless conspiracy theories, whether for personal or political gain is to put our country's health and security in danger. This isn't a game." Amen. This is the fourteenth day in this country of more than 100,000 new cases per day.
25 states saw their highest 7-day averages for new daily cases yesterday and no, it's not because we test too much. It's because we don't care enough, me included. We all have not done what we need to do. Take a look at this scene in Dallas this weekend. Look at these cars. Not a Trump rally but this is a result of Trump. You know what this is. These are cars lined up to collect groceries at a food bank. I want you to keep looking at this.
Look at all the cars. Look how far back the lines go. This is America. OK? This isn't post a hurricane. This is status quo for months for millions of people in this country. We've never seen anything like it since the new deal. Since the depression.
Still think it's a hoax? Still think masks are a joke? Still think it's OK because you can catch someone like me not wearing one every minute of the day so you never have to? When people are starving because Trump likes that? That you show you're strong and that you don't need a mask. Look at this. This is your country. And it's not going to end anytime soon because nobody's making it end.
And you know what the Trumpers tell you? Instead of seeing this and saying hey, we got to get to a better place. Dr. Atlas, OK? A guy with no pandemic experience, he literally would know more if he stayed at a Holiday Inn express last night.
He's saying, hey you in Michigan. These measures to help try to control the spread, fight back. Are you kidding me? Shame on you. What kind of doctor would tell people to rise up and resist the only kind of prophylaxis that's going to help them? What the hell is the matter with this person?
Rise up? You rise up and do your job or get the hell out. How could you give this kind of advice? Of course, Fauci was being measured. He says, I don't agree with his position. This isn't Fauci's fight. The science is obvious. This is about Trump and the Trumpers. He's going to have his main health guy stand up and say fight back against the regulations to keep you safe. Listen to him. I'm not making it up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. SCOTT ATLAS, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE ADVISER: And this kind of isolation is one of the unspoken tragedies of the elderly who are now being told don't see your family at Thanksgiving. For many people this is the final Thanksgiving, believe it or not. What are we doing here?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: What the hell are you doing here? Yes, it could be their last Thanksgiving if you expose them to people who aren't wearing masks, who aren't socially distancing and haven't been doing so and haven't gotten tested because they somehow think, they don't want to get in on the con of COVID.
You know you want to hide on state news, you do it. But some day you're going to have to deal with real questions and either you're going to come on a show or you're going to do it but you know what, we may go back to old school and maybe the questions will come, find you.
Maybe when you're living your life nice and easy because you don't have the concerns that these same people that you're telling to rise up, that they have. Maybe the questions will come and find you because you have to answer for that kind of guidance. Let alone as a doctor. Do no harm? Invite grandma? This could be her last Thanksgiving? Yes, if you invite her to a place where she can get sick and die.
Thanksgiving's right around the corner and you know what? We do have to think about what we're thankful for.
[21:10:00]
And we also have to think about what we're thankful for getting past. OK? Because this ignoring the science, this is crazy. We're past 11mllion cases. It'll disappear in the spring. It only took six days for 1 million more to get sick. It would have taken dozens of days, it would have taken weeks and weeks. Now it just took us a week. Why?
Because we're not all together as ever as one fighting with the desperation. That is what you must have before the vaccine. 65 days or a lifetime for too many people in this country. That's how long Trump has left. Trumpers, remember you took an oath to this country and your constituents. Not to him.
Do your damn job. Now what should that be looking like versus what is a legit state of play? Excellent insight and information for you right now. David Axelrod, Kaitlan Collins. So Kaitlan, we laid out some of the state of play there. We understand what's going on we saw The New York Times reporting. This idea that the president has plans of what he wants to do in these 65 days that are almost scarier than what he wants to do to contest the election. What are you hearing? KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the president
has obviously been looking to make a lot of changes. That started with last Monday when he started purging the leadership at the Pentagon but of course the question is now, what are they going to do in the next two months? And so that has a range of topics where, as the president is continuing to fight the results of this election, urging his team to keep this fight going even though we see that it's playing out any into different courts and different states.
And their chances are dwindling, their chances of success that is, not that they were ever that strong to begin with so we're already seeing the struggles that they're facing there but then of course you've got to look at what the question is, what does the president do in the next two months.
So the question of the transition is more than just the president conceding the race and recognizing Joe Biden's victory but it's also whether or not the president is checked out from the coronavirus response.
And that's something that we're hearing increasing concerns about because if you notice you know the president gave an update on Operation Warp Speed last Friday, that was really one of the only times we've heard from the president talk about the pandemic without you accusing Pfizer of holding data on a vaccine to hurt him politically or things of that nature, those kind of conspiracy theories that the president has been pushing.
And so I think that's a big question that people have is what does the president not do over the next two months when it comes to coronavirus and how does that affect and our damage really, the standing of where the nation is and what the Biden administration is going to be coming into.
CUOMO: All right so Axe, just in terms of the particulars of it, the idea that he may begin the leasing process for arctic drilling. I'm not that worried about that one. I think that there are policy discussions to have there but that can be undone, whatever he does that. That's a protracted process.
What is also protracted but a little more difficult to manage once it's put into effect is troop drawdowns from Afghanistan and Iraq. Now we've seen at the end of a term people put more troops in. We've never seen them start taking them out. I know it's a protracted process to pull them out but what kind of complication does that take in situations that are still very unstable?
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Great complications. Look, I think there are two dangers here. What the president isn't doing and what the president will do as Kaitlan said. 65 days is an eternity and there's so much power in that office and so much of an ability to do things that are really dangerous for the country.
War in Iran for example, would be an enormously costly decision and dangerous decision and certainly not when you should make on your way out the door. Withdrawing troops is a fateful decision and there are consequences that may be paid for that if it's not done the right way. So these things are these things are worrisome you know along with what he is not doing, where you know this could not be worse timing.
We are entering the worst phase of this pandemic and the danger we should - look, I have - Dr. Atlas was pandering to the feeling of people of isolation, of not being with her family on Thanksgiving, of all the sacrifices that people have to make.
I am sympathetic to that but the reality is hospitals across this country are being overwhelmed by this pandemic and within a few weeks, we may have people who are literally dying in the streets because they cannot get into a hospital. This is a national emergency and it's not getting any attention from the President of the United States. So you know on the one hand he's contemplating all these rash actions that are subversive and could create real danger for us.
[21:15:00]
And he's ignoring the gravest danger that we face right now which is this virus. It's really a tragic circumstance here.
CUOMO: Kaitlan, any word that on the lower levels, that there'll be some interface between the current administration and the incoming on the vaccination process and distribution plan.
COLLINS: Well, they're struggling with how to approach this even those who are maybe more career officials or people who actually do want this process to work smoothly because they worked on it for the last nine months or so. Is that - they can't even really talk about it because the president himself hasn't recognized it and that's not even just on the lower levels.
We saw it with the HHS secretary this morning who wouldn't even acknowledge the fact that there is going to be a transition to another administration because the president himself has of course denied that and put all of his deputies in a terrible spot where they feel like if they acknowledge it of course, they're going to get the treatment that Robert O'Brien did today where he's just simply recognizing reality and we're pointing that out.
Or they just you know act like it's not going to happen and then look ridiculous later on and so this is something they are concerned about. This is something people do want to go smoothly because they don't want to undo all the work they've done on the vaccine over the last several months and the distribution process that they've been working on within Operation Warp Speed.
But of course, that is a struggle when your boss cannot admit that he lost the election at least not publicly in a sense like that where they can properly be ready for that. Though they have assured us that they will be ready if a transition does happen, which were the words that Azar used today. Of course we know it's not if, it's when.
CUOMO: Kaitlan, thank you. Axe, last word to you and also weigh in on this a little bit. I see this like this is going to be worse than what you guys dealt with, with the Republicans when you came in. I mean they are holding up this transition at a time that they know is life and death and they have no basis, not even Cruz is offering.
You know the guy's a champion debater and litigator and Supreme-Court- know-it-all. He can't offer any legitimate grounds for litigation right now. The cases are failing all over the place. Looks like it's in its death gasp in Pennsylvania. If this is their spirit of opposition what is Biden looking at with this Republican Senate in control?
AXELROD: No, I agree every single person in Washington including Senator Cruz knows the reality of what the situation is. This election was over a long time ago and they're playing this out because the president demands they do. Here's what worries me. What we didn't face - yes, that that is scary, the opposition in the Congress is worrisome for Biden but we didn't have Donald Trump sitting down the street, setting up camp and leading the resistance from some you know right wing television outpost.
and that's what's going to happen here and what you see on the part of these Republican politicians is abject fear, not so much fear of Trump but fear of the base that he commands and that is what Biden's going to face whenever there comes a question of cooperation.
I think that you know at a time when we desperately need cooperation, you're going to have Trump banging on the door a day after day, calling people traitors if they make any move to work with the president that the people of the United States elected.
CUOMO: Axe, thank you very much David Axelrod. Kaitlan Collins, thank you 24/7 always on the news, appreciate you. All right, major concerns in the run up to Inauguration Day. What is this with Iran? Why would Trump thing to do this on the way out? He had a lot of time to do it. He has never want to do anything like it since we had that moment years ago why pull out troops now and threaten to destabilizing the region?
You had years to do it. Why now? Great timing to have his former national security adviser on here and also for just an understanding, they're playing politics. The military is in charge of figuring out distribution. Policy versus politics could be a world of difference. H.R. McMaster next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CUOMO: The New York Times reporting just last week Donald Trump had to be talked out of a strike on Iran. Line that up with him appearing to move forward with plans for a drawdown in Afghanistan and Iraq and Iraq has a tie to Iran that we'll discuss in a second and that's all beside the point that CNN has learned that earlier this month, Mark Esper, Trump's recently fired Defense Secretary, he sent a classified memo warning against doing exactly that and maybe that that's why he was fired. With all this, look, what is the clear picture? You got a lame duck
Commander-in-chief who is poised to use power in desperate ways and it can matter. 65 days could be the longest of our lives. General H.R. McMaster was Trump's national security adviser, author of the new book 'Battlegrounds: The Fight to Defend the Free World.'
Perfect read to understand this moment we're living right now. General, thank you for joining us again.
H.R. MCMASTER, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Hey Chris, it's great to be with you. Thanks for having me.
CUOMO: So some perspective. Let's you know, maybe we take a shot at Iran and stop their nuclear capabilities and I want to get rid of the troops Afghanistan and Iraq, Iraq says hold on a second by the way, we're in a tight rope here between United States and Iran, not a great time to destabilize us with your presence.
What do these type of asks speak to in your opinion from this president?
MCMASTER: Well, I think on Iran, we ought to be encouraged by the fact that then he had apparently a meeting and then decided against that. Of course, you know there's always this lure of the strike. You know these are people who put forward easy solutions to complex problems and you know war is not an easy endeavor because the other side gets a say in the future course of events. You know Chris, I wrote a book about how and why Vietnam became an American war call dereliction of duty.
[21:25:00]
And what Lyndon Johnson's advisers did is they went in to give him the advice he wanted on Vietnam. Hey, just do some covert raids, just get the first bombing runs off and they never considered the long term costs and consequences and so it sounds like that's what happened in that meeting. The president decided against it.
Chris, this is going to be a problem for the Biden administration, Iran, as you saw the U.N. report last week about Iran enriching more and more uranium, probably moving toward maybe a threshold capability for a nuclear weapon. It's going to be a difficult problem. Of course Israel has had the Baigan (ph) doctrine which means Israel will not accept a hostile state having the most destructive weapons on earth.
Remember the Israeli defense force strikes against Iraq in 1981 and then the strikes against this nuclear facility that the North Koreans were helping the Assad regime build in Syria in 2007 so this is a period, I think of significant danger, significant danger of military action in the Middle East that could lead to a much broader conflict.
CUOMO: Nobody likes to see our fighting men and women abroad, especially in seems like an unwinnable wars as you know very well, Afghanistan is also often called the graveyard of empires but the idea of doing it now on the way out. We're not used to seeing a Commander- in-Chief pull troops out on the way out. Sometimes they put more in. What is your risk there?
MCMASTER: It's a huge risk OK Chris, you should know, right? You're a New Yorker. Hey, this is not a theoretical case. If the Taliban and Jihadist terrorist organizations gain safe haven and support base, gain territory, they can allow them to plan and resource and rehearse mass murder attacks against us.
Plus by the way, having access to an extremely lucrative narcotics trade that fills their coffers and makes them even more effective, we get you know, what we got in 2001 which was the most devastating terrorist attack in history and what people around President Trump are saying now is, hey go back essentially to the Bill Clinton counterterrorism doctrine.
You know when we look at the history of Al Qaeda, they declared war on us in the early nineties. We thought you know, it's not a big deal, who's this Osama bin Laden guy? Well, then we had the first Twin towers bombing the truck bombs in 1994.
CUOMO: 1993.
MCMASTER: Again, we didn't really do anything. We had the Embassy bombings in 98 and we fired a few cruise missiles in Afghanistan and called it a day. So I think what we need to learn from 911 is that these problems that develop overseas can only be dealt with at an exorbitant cost once they reach our shores.
We have a very small number of troops in Afghanistan and Chris, as you as you alluded to already, you know we should be extremely grateful for the 10 soldiers, great soldiers who made the ultimate sacrifice for us in Afghanistan but we should also recognize that about 30 Afghan soldiers or police a day give their lives to protect the freedoms they've enjoyed since 2001 and to ensure that the Taliban never again control territory and play host to these other Jihadist terrorist organizations.
CUOMO: How big a deal is the task of giving a vaccine to 300 million Americans, 300 plus and how important is it that the incoming administration be working with the team, that's working on it now right now?
MCMASTER: Yes, of course this is a hugely important undertaking. Hey, the good news about it is, my good friend General Gustave Perna is running this. He is a fine officer. He's a great American. He's going to make it happen. He and his team will make it happen. I think it's immensely important to bring the Biden administration into this now.
You know those who were working on the - on the transition but you know Chris, I don't think we should be super concerned about it because once you remove kind of these type of political people across the government at this stage, what you have is you have really dedicated in this case a military officer but civil servants who are going to make this work.
And of course, they're doing it in a very close partnership with the private sector and private logistics chains. I have some big confidence in this Chris, that this is going to work.
CUOMO: But they have people over there--
MCMASTER: The point you made at the outset of the show is right. I mean you know the door should be open, right? Hey, we're all Americans, right? This virus isn't going after Democrats or Republicans just like in 911, Al Qaeda didn't attack Democrats or Republicans, they attacked Americans. So we should be together on these issues.
CUOMO: 65 days is a long time though and as you alluded to hyper politicals, the president just put a several of them in at the Pentagon, you know a lot of them, they're not necessarily on top of Perna's head in terms of oversight because he's doing it but resources, allocation, planning meetings you know structural, logistics, it could all be slow walked. No matter how he wants to do it and 65 days is a long time in a pandemic.
[21:30:00]
MCMASTER: Well, you know I mean the problem with 65 days is, it's not long enough to get a lot positive done, right? But I mean, you can do some damage in 65 days but I'm not worried about it in terms of Warp Speed and logistics there. I am concerned from a foreign policy perspective and you know I think what we've seen in Afghanistan is this abhorrent strategy of actually partnering with the 5 percent of population, the Taliban against the other 95 percent or so of Afghans.
And you know what's important to understand for Americans, I mean, I know why Americans are frustrated with what they were calling you know endless wars because we've been incompetent in our conduct of our campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq and more broadly in the - against Jihadist terrorist organizations but you know, I'll tell you this is an effort we're sustaining Chris, I mean the dangers is great to us.
It's not a theoretical case and by the way, our commitment there was at a sustainable level so this is going to be another you know, another big issue for a new administration when they come in, what to do about it. What's important to understand about Afghanistan as well though is this move toward disengagement is not a partisan issue, right?
In many ways, I think what Donald Trump has done has doubled down on the flaws of the Obama administration's approach to Afghanistan and so Chris, you know we set kind of too high of a bar, right? People say oh gosh, you know we're in Afghanistan and it's not Denmark yet. OK, Afghanistan doesn't need to be Denmark. It just needs to be Afghanistan on a slow path to gaining self -sufficiency. It's also important to know Chris, that U.S. troops are far fewer in number now than the rest of the coalition in Afghanistan.
So this is an effort that the international community's been behind and with us just walking out like that, everybody else is going to lose heart and walk out as well.
CUOMO: Right, I mean look, there is something about our leaders going first but also you know, he's had a long time, you know there were a lot of people in there between when you were there and now but they could have come up with a plan. They could have pulled back if they wanted to do. To do it last second like this is all downside, very little upside but General, thank you again for being on the show. Appreciate it.
The book is--
MCMASTER: Chris, thanks for your time. Glad to be with you.
CUOMO: Of course. The book is "Battlegrounds: The Fight To Defend The Free World." And a lot of what we're talking about now, the General talks about in there, our thanks to him. All right, another piece of good news, right? We don't - look, we haven't had a lot and we take it, let's take a breath and appreciate it for what it is. Pfizer vaccine, good news. Having to keep it that cold, -70 degrees, that's tough.
They say there's refrigeration all over but that's going to be tough. And now another vaccine Moderna, which is part of Operation Warp Speed development. It is absolutely kudos to Operation Warp Speed started by this administration, started by President Trump and it is the fruit of that effort and it doesn't need to be refrigerated.
That's good news and its effectiveness is as high as 95 percent. Good. What does this mean for the good things we can do going forward? What are the challenges and what is the biggest concern right now for a new Biden COVID advisory board member? Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CUOMO: Just a week after Pfizer announced its COVID vaccine and has 90 percent success but does need to be kept very cold, Moderna came out with even better numbers today. 94.5 percent effectiveness, the company reports, preliminary data but astounding. Like Pfizer, Moderna hopes that vaccinations will begin in December and yes, it's going to take months to ramp up to the kind of level that we can use to vaccinate some 300 million people, if we have the right plan.
Now Biden will oversee the effort at that point so how important is it that he's not in the loop now. Trump continues to lie, deny and defy even as cases surpass a 100,000. He wants credit for the vaccine. He doesn't talk about the cases. Hospitalizations hit a new daily high, over 73000. Deaths nearing the 250,000 mark.
Even with a vaccine, you got a lot of death between now and when we're protected. And a Biden team, each day they're falling farther behind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: The vaccine's important. It's a little nuisance till you're vaccinated. So how do we get the vaccine? How do we get over 300 million Americans vaccinated? They say they have this Warp Speed program that they not only dealt with getting vaccines but also how to distribute this. If we have to wait until January 20 to start that planning, it puts us behind over a month - month and a half.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: So on that basis, let's bring in Dr. Celine Gounder, infectious disease expert, member of Biden's new COVID advisory board. Good to see again, doc.
DR. CELINE GOUNDER, MEMBER, BIDEN TRANSITION COVID-19 ADVISORY BOARD: Great to see you, Chris.
CUOMO: Congratulations on the appointment. Now comes the work. We just had General McMaster on, former National Security Adviser. He says Perna's got it handled. He's got an amazing team. Don't worry, when they get in, the Biden people, it'll all be fine, they can handle it, is it that simple?
GOUNDER: Well, imagine if we were in the middle of a World War, if we were at war with a foreign power and we were telling or the current administration were telling the incoming administration hey, you don't need to know where the aircraft carriers and the tanks and the troops are. We got it in and on your first day at work on January 20, we'll let you know what that information is. I mean that would be a ridiculous transfer of power.
[21:40:00]
And it is analogous to what we're dealing with in terms of the war on the coronavirus, we really do need very fine granular data, that is what will allow it to be much more targeted in our restrictions, that will be - will allow us to be more targeted in how we distribute vaccines to those who need it most.
CUOMO: Right, I mean that's an important point so the CDC is doing that vetting but you know the leadership is top down and how they are assessing and who they want to get it first and where. You never know with this administration, they may play red and blue versus old and young. So I understand why you want to roll in there. Before we get ahead of ourselves, are you convinced by the early data from Moderna?
GOUNDER: This data as well as the Pfizer data looks really good. We always continue to collect even after a Phase 3 clinical trial is done, even after there's full approval by the FDA, we continue to collect data on effectiveness and side effects because there are some rare events that you cannot pick up in the initial studies.
So you know, it looks promising. We're very excited but we're going to continue to study this.
CUOMO: The idea, just so people have the numbers, 15,000 participants received placebo. 90 got sick with COVID-19. 15,000 participants received the vaccine. Five got sick with COVID-19. So you know compelling. It's early data, you can keep testing, you may get some different results but this is much higher than what we require for flu vaccines, I'll tell you that right now.
90 percent is amazing. For flu vaccine, they accept 40-50 percent efficacy. All right, now the White House - current White House team says look, the pandemic plans are publicly available, OK? In terms of distribution. You don't need any more information than that. What does that miss?
GOUNDER: I mean, that's like saying military plans are publicly available. Yes sure, you can read The New York Times and you can see what is publicly available on websites. That is not the level of detail that those of us who are planning a pandemic response really require.
We need to be in the room or at least in the Zoom meetings with Pfizer and Moderna and you know all of the companies that will be helping us distribute this as well as local and public and state public health departments. We need to be in those discussions now so that there is a seamless transition.
CUOMO: Now we know each other from the pandemic, you're in NYU. NYU was one of the few places to have a long haul research center where they're having people come in to figure it out. A lot of unknowns. When you get in, do you believe that there are actual - will it just be messaging or are there actual policy changes in the fight against COVID that this administration will make.
GOUNDER: Oh no, this is not just messaging. I mean there's going to be some very--
CUOMO: And I know messaging matters by the way. I don't mean to you know, I don't mean to say messaging doesn't matter but is there anything else because the criticism is you guys are going to do the same thing that the Trump administration's been doing.
GOUNDER: No, no. I'll give you a couple of examples. I mean, we don't have the time to go through the entire list but a couple of examples. Number one, we have been pleading with the current administration with the president to invoke the Defense Production Act for months since the beginning of the pandemic.
You know somebody who's worked myself on the front lines of Bellevue hospital in New York, I can tell you we've been dealing with the shortage situation for months. We've been using the same mass over and over again. I've had the same face shield since March. So this is something that is an urgent you know especially as we have a huge surge in cases.
Another good example of a major contrast. The current administration has been actively discouraging testing. We are going to massively ramp up testing because that is the only way you can be targeted in your restrictions that you don't have to be so blunt to have lockdowns.
You need to know where the virus is spreading.
CUOMO: Dr. Celine Gounder, one promise to you as we make to all administrations, you will always have this platform to come out and argue the facts of what's happening and what the recommendations are of this administration on the same.
GOUNDER: Appreciate it.
CUOMO: Good luck going forward doctor, we need you.
GOUNDER: Thank you.
CUOMO: All right, look, I don't need - you don't need me to tell you that COVID is exploding, all right? You got COVID exploding, you've got Trump imploding. All right, it's impossible to make sense of all of it especially in a divided media landscape. President Obama said you know it's hard, we don't have a Walter Cronkite type to help combat disinformation.
Cronkite was great man and he's a great mentor and I liked him. This is a very different time. Let's bring in another legendary broadcaster Sam Donaldson. It's not as simple as one person, the whole media landscape has changed and we're battling something even he never battled before. Let's discuss with one of the masters. Sam Donaldson.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CUOMO: The chaos that we see as a country right now is something former President Obama says is not just about President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, 44TH U.S. PRESIDENT: I don't see him as the cause for our divisions and the problems with our government. I think he's an accelerant but they proceeded and sadly, are going to likely outlast him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Agreed. Part of the problem that Obama pointed out to The Atlantic is, "We don't have a Walter Cronkite describing the tragedy of Kennedy's assassination but also saying to supporters and detractors alike of the Vietnam War that this is not going the way the generals and the White House are telling us. Without this common narrative, democracy becomes very tough."
Nobody better to discuss this with than legendary journalist and certainly personal mentor, Sam Donaldson, one of the best compliments I ever got was when someone called me a poor man's Sam Donaldson. I accept that with a smile and a handshake. It's good to see you Big Brother.
[21:50:00]
What do you make all of the former president's point about the need for a common narrative as made manifest in a single newsman? SAM DONALDSON, FORMER ANCHOR, ABC NEWS: Well, not a single newsman, we
need a common narrative. A common narrative is based on common facts. There are no different facts and reporters in my day, I hope we all tried to bring you the audience facts that we discovered, that people told us, that we checked out, that occasionally we were wrong and we tried to correct that.
And the audience is generally accepted that what we were trying to do is bring them information that was factual and they could use but without tracing, what's happened in decades till now. Look where we are now? President Trump has made it clear to the nation that any story, anything that is said about him or his administration that he doesn't like is fake news. Fake news, fake news.
I mean in everything he does, he tries to make the audience out there, his audience feel that us, the people in the news media are the enemy. He said that we're the enemy of the people. Well, that's nonsense because if you can't trust someone to bring you some information that's factual that you can use and if the President of the United States says you can't trust them not one of them unless it's good for me, where can we have a dialogue?
As President Obama said how can we have a common narrative, if there are no facts.
CUOMO: True but look, politicians never love us. The Obama administration certainly didn't, right? His AG Eric Holder had plenty of problems with the media. What do you think is changed in terms of how we do our job? What do you think the lesson of Trump is?
DONALDSON: Well, the lesson of Trump is - frankly, we just have to do our job better but how do you do it better when there aren't just three networks. When I joined it ABC news, you had to watch one of the three of us and you had to watch Walter Cronkite or Frank Reynolds or you had to watch someone on NBC and David Brinkley, Chet Huntley and if you didn't like one, you go to the other.
Now if you don't like any of us, you can go to hundreds, thousands, I can't tell you how many people, no one's like Walter but I can't tell you how many people are out there, delivering what is the news, what they say is the news, when in fact it's usually their opinion based on almost nothing or it's fake news.
If you go to Alex Jones site and he tells you those kids were not killed, no, that was government plants, sources where people put there and you believe that. Well, you never heard that from many of us, that kind of conspiratorial theory.
Whether the pizza thing and there's you know, the pedophile and the Hillary Clinton down in the basement, people are believing that so who do you go to for information Chris? You can see CNN, Fox, MSNBC, I mean - and then I'll go down a whole list of - Newsmax is getting the audience now from Fox because Donald J. Trump has flipped Fox.
It had the temerity to say he was not going to win Arizona which he didn't win and he was so angry at his network, his propaganda machine, that he has now diverted a lot of viewers to Newsmax, to One America, to these further right wing, they make Fox look like MSNBC compared to them and where do they go?
So you'd say me, well, who do we trust? Who do we believe? Unfortunately, it's sort of up for grabs.
CUOMO: What do you say to the audience about what they should think as we transition out of this because Trump's not going anywhere, right? Certainly Trumpery won't go anywhere. He will be out there as a force resistance, may even run again. What's the best guidance as a consumer of information?
DONALDSON: He may but he's not going to be president, he's not going to have that platform. He'll try to make himself every day's news as he has as President of the United States but Chris, we don't have to believe that, we don't have to put him on. I always thought we should put the President of the United States.
Until the very end I agreed with people who said - point out that he's lying, point out that's not the fact, point out that wearing a mask will help save your life and someone else's life and he was saying no, look at me, I'm the big strong guy, you fool. And it is - Biden was right today in not allowing a transition team, if he doesn't want to concede, fine, allow the team in to start working because January 20 at noon, he's not going to be President of the United States and I'm sure he'll leave peacefully.
Federal Marshals will drag him out of the office if he doesn't.
CUOMO: God forbid, we don't need that.
DONALDSON: And at that point - No, we don't need that and I'm not predicting that but I'm simply saying his ability, his grip on what 72 plus million Americans who voted for him and I don't believe all of them are in his grip at all but it will diminish, Chris. He is not going to be the force a year from now, two years from now that he has been.
[21:55:00]
Mark it. Other people in the Republican Party or whatever they call themselves Republican Trump cultist or what have you, are going to be vying for that nomination in four years. They're not going to give way to him.
CUOMO: Sam, I have a suggestion of one of the things that we haven't done enough of that I think will help the audience not just now but certainly over the next couple of years. Very often in the moment, I see things a certain way based on the information or how it's coming and what the focus should be and that's how we plan to show with the team.
It often would benefit from the perspective of somebody like you who doesn't have the pressure of being on every day so you can see the game and you can call balls and strikes and I'd love you to do that more on this show. How about that? DONALDSON: Well, I might cost you viewers but look, like the old dog at the fire house when the bell goes on, I want to get up off the floor. Of course.
CUOMO: Good.
DONALDSON: I love the country, you love the country and I think people who voted for Donald Trump love the country.
CUOMO: Absolutely.
DONALDSON: That's not the point. The point is how do we find the common ground and the common facts on which to argue.
CUOMO: Sam, I'll see you again soon and thank you very much and to everybody else, we'll be right back.
DONALDSON: My son, goodbye.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CUOMO (on camera): Thank you for watching. Time for the big show. "CNN TONIGHT" with its star, D. Lemon.
