Return to Transcripts main page
Cuomo Prime Time
Trump Fires Top Cybersecurity Official For Debunking His Voter Fraud Claims; Wayne County, Michigan Votes To Certify Election Results After Republicans Earlier Blocked Certification; Rudy Giuliani Takes Over In Court, Pushes Conspiracy Theories. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 17, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
RICK BRIGHT, FORMER HHS SCIENTIST, MEMBER, PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN'S COVID-19 ADVISORY BOARD: --just really disturbing.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes. Rick Bright, I appreciate your time. Thank you.
BRIGHT: Thank you.
COOPER: A reminder, don't miss Full Circle, our digital news show, gives a chance to dig into some important topics, have in-depth conversations. You can catch it streaming live at 6 P.M. Eastern at CNN.com/FullCircle or watch it there or on CNN app at any time on- demand.
The news continues. Let's hand it over to Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME." Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: All right, thank you, Anderson.
I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
There are very heavy matters on our watch. Once again, Trump Party leaders are standing by silently as the man they fear most revenge- fires yet another top staffer protecting our country. Why? For telling the truth.
The person's name is Chris Krebs. He's the Director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, fired for saying there was no widespread fraud in this election.
Trump says there were massive improprieties and fraud, including dead people voting. Here's his problem. Chris Krebs said the election was good with proof, because he was in charge of overseeing the security. Trump has no proof.
But what makes this, once again, a grave night for us, no pushback from any GOP Member of Congress. Please, remember this.
Remember how these men and women were silent. When they pretend to be something else, down the road, remember who they were in this moment. Law and order, they say they're about. To them it seems to me that the law is that Trump orders them when to speak.
Chris Krebs took to Twitter after the firing. He wrote, "Honored to serve. We did it right. Defend Today, Secure Tomorrow. #Protect2020."
Of course, the President has the right to remove Krebs, but that doesn't make it right, and the GOP knows it's wrong. But just like with the rest of the trumpery surrounding this fugazi election fraud fiction, they choose to pretend nothing is wrong. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): In all of these presidential elections that we go through this process and we're going to have an orderly transfer, from this Administration, to the next one. What we all say about it, frankly, irrelevant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: So, this is what usually happens that you don't allow the transition in the middle of a pandemic, when we have a vaccine that needs to be distributed by the Administration that's coming in, and the Administration that's there right now won't let them learn what's happening? That's what's normal?
How can McConnell serve in the Senate if he thinks it's irrelevant to speak right now that it's irrelevant to speak truth to power? He knows this isn't normal.
He knows holding up this transition with no proof of election issues is the opposite of what's normal, just like his holding up aide while people around this country wait on food lines is not normal, watching businesses fold by the hundreds, and waiting to act is not normal.
Again, remember what he just said, and is failing to say and do. He did nothing in this moment.
So, my proposal, let's you and me do what he won't. Let's get to the truth and call it out. Let's get after it.
The root of the ruse this time is a partisan play in Detroit-based Wayne County. The Board of Canvassers there deadlocked along partisan lines, on this critical vote and, therefore, were unable, to certify the County's presidential results, before the deadline.
The statement from the Michigan GOP Party Chair makes clear what this is about. Rank partisanship, giving Trump something he can point to, to suggest he was a victim of some wrongdoing.
Here's the quote. "Due to the efforts of the Michigan Republican Party, the Republican National Committee and the Trump Campaign, enough evidence of irregularities and potential voter fraud was uncovered resulting in the Wayne County Board of Canvassers refusing to certify their election results. This action will allow more time for us to get to the bottom of these deeply troubling irregularities."
So deeply troubling that he could mention them? Show the proof? Say something about it? Describe it? Go to court? No. So, then, what is it really? Is it about proof of fraud, or is this more proof of the tortured two-party system that has subjugated our politics?
Let's talk to somebody who literally was elected to know the truth of this. The Michigan official overseeing all election results in the State, Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson.
Secretary of State, thank you for joining us once again.
[21:05:00]
JOCELYN BENSON (D) MICHIGAN SECRETARY OF STATE: Thanks for having me, Chris.
CUOMO: Have you been presented with proof that there is a material problem/irregularity/fraud in the vote canvassing in that County?
BENSON: No, absolutely not. There was no evidence of irregularities, no evidence of widespread fraud that have become evident at any point in this process nor were there any presented today to the Wayne Board of Canvassers.
If anything, the evidence actually showed less clerical errors than there have been in years past. Yet, of course, we believe that this was more about partisan politics, and frankly, an effort to, again, suppress and invalidate the otherwise very valid votes of our State's largest African-American jurisdiction.
And so recognizing that, as you mentioned, we're going to just continue to respond with the truth, and recognize that we'll continue the work now, at the State, to finish this canvass, to hand it over to the State Board of Governors, or Board of Canvassers, and clarify that, indeed, every valid vote is and will be counted, and every voice will be heard in the City of Detroit and throughout the State of Michigan.
CUOMO: We're aware that right now Biden has perhaps his biggest lead in the disputed states of almost 150,000, right? 148-some-thousand odd votes at the latest count. We know there's some more counting to be done. We know the certification has to be done.
But let's look at this County because that's what they want us to do in the Republican Party, so let's give them what they want. So, they had this vote. Didn't they have to have some kind of hearing or make some show of cause or proof to have a basis for their vote that they didn't want to certify?
BENSON: Well yes, notably, that's what happened today.
But interestingly, in 2016 and this happens after every election, the Board meets and reviews the canvass, and reviews an audit of the process, and certifies the vote. And notably, they certified the vote in 2016 with 80 percent of Detroit precincts out of balance.
And yet, today, 42 percent were out of balance, and yet, it didn't get certified, so clearly there is no valid point here. It's truly just partisan politics. But importantly, Chris, the State has a protocol for when this happens.
It simply now then goes to our Bureau of Elections within the Department of State. They will then complete the canvass, address any clerical or bookkeeping errors, and then, in the next 10 days, hand it over to the State Board of Canvassers to review and perform their ministerial functioning of certifying the vote.
CUOMO: I get that it's happened before. I get that there is a protocol. I get it. But the issue is what you just said.
In 2016, so ostensibly, the issue here is that there isn't a match among a certain number of precincts that is now troubling to the Board in its Republican membership such that they couldn't vote to certify.
BENSON: Yes.
CUOMO: But you're saying that the number of precincts that have a mismatch, as you said, now, is 42 percent. But in 2016, they did certify or vote to certify when the mismatched number of precinct percentage was much higher?
BENSON: Yes, it was nearly twice that. 80 percent of precincts were out of balance in 2016, and yet the Board of Canvassers had no problem certifying it then.
And indeed, they shouldn't. It's, again, a bookkeeping issue that oftentimes occurs, if a voter shows up, and leaves, perhaps without voting, or if there is a spoiled ballot, or something like that.
And so, the job now is for the State to essentially explain any of these imbalances. But it's notable that these imbalances also occur across the state. It's actually quite common. It's not a reflection of any irregularity and certainly not an opportunity to invalidate any other valid votes.
So, we're to continue to just address any type of - any type of clerical errors that were unaddressed today. We'll continue cleaning up those bookkeeping errors, and at the same time move forward with the full certification of the votes throughout the State that will include every jurisdiction, including Detroit.
CUOMO: And the reason I harp on the number of precincts involved, and I'm not saying 42 percent is a small number.
I think 2016 is an important analogy because they were very tolerant of a much higher number of mismatches. Why? Because a lot of it, winds up, being clerical de minimis, and otherwise rectified.
However, just to be clear, they offered you none of the proof of what the GOP State Party put out in their statement that there were real problem. They didn't show you "Look at these real problems, Secretary of State. How can we certify?" None of that?
BENSON: Truly, and if they had, we certainly would have looked at them.
CUOMO: Right.
BENSON: But what we know, and what everyone, who's a part of this process knows, is that the closer you look, the more you'll find simply that--
CUOMO: Sure.
BENSON: --this was actually a very well-run election in Wayne County, in Detroit, and throughout the State of Michigan.
[21:10:00]
CUOMO: And some context here. Biden is up in Michigan by 148,000-plus. We said that. He actually got a thousand fewer votes in Detroit than Hillary Clinton did. Trump got nearly 5,000 more votes, a 65 percent increase for the President this election that he's saying was rigged versus the last one. So that's for context.
They are suing, the Campaign, in federal court. To your knowledge, have they shown proof of any kind of widespread and substantial voter fraud?
BENSON: They have not. They have not today. They have not in past cases. They have not through multiple different attempts and calls to try to do so.
And the reason why is because the truth is what it is, and there is no irregularity, there are no widespread - no widespread fraud in the City of Detroit or throughout the State of Michigan. And, again, the truth will continue to show that.
What this also is, is an effort to prolong the certification process to create more seeds of doubt, amongst the voters, and erode the public's confidence in what is actually, again, a well-run election.
So, we'll continue to push back with the facts, with the data, and again note that this was a really disappointing move by the two Republican members of the County Board today to choose partisan politics over doing the right thing in certifying the vote, and the will of the people.
CUOMO: Now, it's easy to play politics in the court of public opinion. It is harder in the court of law. Not impossible, but harder.
Is it true that in the pending litigation right now that the Judge, Janet Neff, ordered the Trump Campaign to serve the complaint and summons on your office to stop the canvass in Wayne County, if they believed they had an actionable claim thereupon, and they were supposed to do it by 5:00 P.M. today, or potentially face dismissal, quote, "For failure to diligently prosecute this case."
Did they serve you with such complaint and subpoena - summons?
BENSON: Not to my knowledge, no - notified of. But, and again, that only underscores what this really is, which is an attempt to use the legal system-- CUOMO: Yes, it does.
BENSON: --to further a PR campaign to erode the public's confidence in what was actually a very well-run election.
CUOMO: All right. Now, Secretary of State, I want to ask your indulgence, OK?
BENSON: Yes.
CUOMO: We are trying to chase down some news in the County right now. We're working the phones literally, as we speak. Let me take a break right now. Can you hang with me across the break?
BENSON: Sure, happy to do.
CUOMO: And let's see if I can chase something down, and ask you about it, because I think it's going to make a difference in this story, OK, if we can get it reported? So, let's do that. This matters, everybody.
BENSON: All right.
CUOMO: It's not just about Michigan. Because he just got rid of the person who was charged with keeping our election safe, at the federal level, because he doesn't want to take the truth for an answer. And if we want this to end, we have to put out everything that is smoking everywhere, OK?
So, let's take a quick break. We're tracking something down. We'll get to the bottom of this right after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: BREAKING NEWS.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: All right, there is breaking news on our watch. Timing is everything. We're looking at Michigan, specifically, one county that is part of Detroit where there had been a vote, along partisan lines, not to certify the presidential votes in that county.
We are joined now by Secretary of State Benson from Michigan.
Just a few moments ago, the President of the United States, for now, tweeted "Wow! Michigan just refused to certify the election results! Having courage is a beautiful thing. The USA stands proud!"
No, the USA does not stand proud, it stands divided, and this is not courage. That's not what this was. This was a curiosity of politics. And now, in real-time, it has been rectified.
Secretary of State, what did you learn while we were in break?
BENSON: Well, while we were talking, the Wayne County Board of Canvassers actually reversed their past decision and voted 4-0 to certify the full results, including the City of Detroit, for Wayne County.
CUOMO: Now, why would they do that?
BENSON: Well, it appears that the truth won in this scenario. Basically the evidence is clear. There were no irregularities. There was no evidence of widespread fraud.
And, in fact, there were simply minor clerical errors, as we were discussing, actually less clerical errors than in past election, and that really isn't a valid reason, in my view, and in apparently ultimately the Board, to invalidate and silence the voices of voters in the State's largest county.
So, I think they did the right thing, they performed their duty, and they certified the election for the voters in Wayne County.
CUOMO: They also asked that you would perform an audit of the errors. Now, to me, that sounds like a hedge, a little bit of a CYA action. But is that something that your office will undertake?
BENSON: We're certainly going to look into that. I mean, look, we want everything to be valid, we want everything to be clear, and we want voters to have confidence in the process.
And we're going to continue to do everything we can, within my authority, to ensure that's the case, and also prepare our clerks, at every jurisdiction, to ensure they have the tools and resources they need to move forward into the next set of elections and ensure - and assure the public that these elections were indeed accurate and a real reflection of the will of the people.
CUOMO: And just to button it up with one fine point, did they provide to your office any proof of the need for an audit?
BENSON: Well, there has been no proof presented to our office or to the Board of Canvassers, today, of any irregularities, any widespread fraud.
And any suggestion that there was is an effort to misinform the public and falsely erode the public's confidence in, again, what was a very well-run election, which I'm gratified that the Board of Canvassers in Wayne County ultimately saw, ultimately was convinced of.
And now, we can move forward with the full statewide certification in the days ahead. CUOMO: Secretary of State, thank you for making it through all this, in real-time, with us. I appreciate your indulgence and the opportunity.
[21:20:00]
BENSON: My pleasure, Chris. And I should also mention we actually were indeed served by that other legal case we were talking earlier, so that will continue, the fight will continue. That's not over yet.
But, again, I'm confident that the legal system will continue to do what it's done, which is verify that there is no evidence of widespread fraud, or irregularities in the system, and we'll continue to prove that everywhere we have to in the days - the days ahead.
CUOMO: All right. We look forward to how these things play out in court as well. You know we're always a phone call away. Thank you very much.
BENSON: Thanks, Chris, I appreciate it.
CUOMO: All right, so, so far, Mr. President, that's strike 30. Let's bring in David Gregory, and Anthony Scaramucci.
Anthony, the question becomes, on the political side, when is your Party going to realize that it stands for something other than Trump?
ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, FOUNDER, SKYBRIDGE CAPITAL: Well, when the money stops coming into the Party. So, they're raising money off this. And so, when they squeeze the last piece of orange out of that orange rind, Chris, that will be the moment that they stop doing this.
So, listen, it's disgusting, it's unbelievably transparent. I think they're all befuddled at the level of transparency, and what's been discovered in, you know, obviously, I'd love to talk about the Lindsey Graham thing as well. I mean they're just befuddled that they've been caught in every turn.
CUOMO: I think we got to be careful what we give attention to. Graham is doing what all the rest of them are doing. They're trying to make the boss happy.
Very interesting, David, that we see county-level people, on the Canvassing Board, undoing what seemed like a perfidious act here, right, a faithless act, and now voting 4-nothing to certify the results.
We do not see any type of courage like that, to use the President's word, from the senators and Members of Congress who are just sitting by and watching this President lie, and try his best to undermine the democracy.
DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, AUTHOR, "HOW'S YOUR FAITH?": Right, because that story hasn't changed, you know? They're waiting for this to just slowly burn out, which it's doing,
you know, the President has made a show of saying that any setback in his life is the result of a rigged process. It's not true. It's not true in this case.
And Republicans, who are around him, who fear him, who fear for the Party in Georgia, who fear what a President Trump out of office means for 2024, maybe he's a candidate, they won't go against him. So, we've been talking about that for a week. That hasn't changed.
What's important to understand is that this process is not on the level. This is not on the level. There were not widespread irregularities. We should be celebrating the fact that there was not outside interference, that this went off so well during a pandemic.
There's always things to look at, in terms of irregularities in an election, but there was nothing widespread. This is not on a level.
There are trial lawyers who are hacks and there are good ones. Do you know how I know the difference? In this case, the good lawyers are getting out of this litigation. They don't want to be any part of it.
So, it's the Rudy Giulianis and others who are involved, and they're not getting anywhere. And again, you saw that play out tonight in Michigan.
CUOMO: You know what? You're right. And therefore, I amend my previous statement.
When I said "The USA does not stand proud, it stands divided," which is true, but it is impressive, Anthony, that the system has withstood a President lying his ass off about things that went wrong with no proof.
That's a big hammer that he swings. And he's got an entire half of the political system saying nothing, no matter how far afield his claims. That's a lot to withstand, but so far, the courts have stood to be blind to anything but law and fact.
SCARAMUCCI: Well, when you were interviewing the Secretary of State of Michigan, I was thinking about my patriotism, and her call to patriotism, and I was thinking about our system, and I was literally feeling so optimistic about the country in 2021, and beyond.
But what I will say to both of you, which I'm super-worried about, is because of the Republican Party, and the way they're acting, we could be potentially one election away from Hungarian-style authoritarianism.
I mean these guys have somehow decided that the signal that they're hearing from the President's voters is that they should act more like the President, and they should fall more in line with the President.
And I'm hoping on July 21st, Chris - I'm sorry, January 21st, that we can decimate him, and we can sort of, roll back Trumpism and, frankly, crush demagogic Trumpism. CUOMO: Well look, the point for the Party in power, and your Party as well, to find ways to connect with people other than just massaging the madness, and making it about their anger and their animus. Address their needs. Give them a better message. Have a better idea when.
[21:25:00]
My concern here, David, is that this isn't just being happening in a vacuum. Biden has got to distribute that vaccine. We're nowhere on that because he doesn't know, and his team doesn't know what's going on.
You got people in food lines, you know this, like we haven't seen since the Great Depression. And the days, the dilatory nature of what's happening in Congress is literally going to make people starve.
GREGORY: It's shameful. I mean, in the middle of this kind of crisis, it makes you wonder why the transition is so long, which is an argument for a different day.
Look, I'm still optimistic. I think that the health teams can get together quickly and that work can move at pace. We've got bigger problems culturally in the country about response to COVID state-by- state versus a uniform plan.
But I think the pressure has to be brought to bear when it comes to managing the virus. There's been great work done on these vaccines. It's great for the country. It's great for our fight against COVID.
And the President-Elect is ready to move and has the team to do it. And you have existing professionals who are part of this Administration and part of the bureaucracy who are ready to help. And there is no excuse for it.
CUOMO: What happens after Trump is gone, OK? Just after the Inauguration, do you believe that the culture of opposition becomes even more fierce, among Republicans, they try to do Obama times two in terms of just opposing everything, or do you think there is a shift, Anthony?
SCARAMUCCI: I think there is a shift. I think that his half-life, he'll start decaying as a power product, and I think he'll be long gone by the midterm elections.
And I think the Republicans, the smart ones, are going to do everything they can to snuff him out and snuff out the nonsense of Trumpism. And so, this idea that he's running in 2024, I'll take the under on that times 10.
So, the process of his power expiating, if you will, will happen very quickly, Chris, and it's going to astonish people, because, down deep, the Republicans don't want it. They're just fearful for some reason that someday we'll have to figure out why, but they really shouldn't be.
And remember, he's only as powerful as his willing accomplices and acolytes, and hopefully the Vice President, now the President-Elect will hire back Mr. Krebs, and that will be a sign that the system is really working.
GREGORY: Can I just say?
CUOMO: Last word, David.
GREGORY: I'm not sure I agree with that. I don't think Trumpism is so easily extinguished. I think it can be peeled back, and his character can be removed from it, but I think that Trumpism is a force of consequence within the Republican Party.
71 million people voted for him. Yes, a lot of opposition to the Democratic Party or even to Biden, but also love for him, support for him, and support of his brand of where the Republican Party goes, even the conservative movement goes.
So, I don't think we know the answer to that. I think there is a lot of opposition, and a lot of fear of the Democratic Party, and the direction it's going. And so, I'm still - my jury is still out on the extent to which they'll separate from this brand of Trumpism, especially if he's out in the wings just making mischief, I think people will still be afraid.
CUOMO: I changed my mind again, last word to me.
SCARAMUCCI: We're going to be working on it, though.
CUOMO: Well but see that's my point. I'm going to borrow your point.
That's the point is what people want, whether they're Trumpers, or whether they're Biden people, or whether they're just confused, like the majority of this country, about what to believe in, because they have no reason to believe, is that they want something better.
They don't want to be angry. They don't want to just have hostility. That doesn't get them anywhere and they know it. There's not more money in their wallet. There are not better dreams for their kids. There's not a different set of options for them to create their own future the way they had dreamed it. That's what has to be the focus.
Who will do it? They'll be the winner. David Gregory, Anthony Scaramucci, thank you both, in real-time, for hanging with me tonight.
GREGORY: Thank you.
CUOMO: All right. And why does this also matter? Because we can't have a political opera right now. We're in the middle of a pandemic.
The average COVID positivity rate is now more than 10 percent. Now, look, I know that number doesn't mean anything. Look at it this way. It's many times higher than as seen as an acceptable rate.
Another top Senator, Chuck Grassley, from Iowa, just tested positive. He was just on the floor yesterday without a mask, and created this whole kerfuffle here. We have one of his colleagues, Senator Brown. He got mocked for asking a different Republican to put on his mask. He will continue to make his case for safety, but also the state of play right now. How do we get to a better place? Next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Politicians aren't going to save us. Not from the pandemic, not from anything, certainly not from ourselves. Together as ever as one, if you and I, if we, wear masks, socially distance, wait for the vaccine, get it, do what we're asked to do, we'll get to a better place.
What happens in the meantime? Chaos!
We just learned tonight that Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa is COVID- positive. I wish him well. I hope the rest of his family doesn't get it. COVID is no joke, especially at his age. I hope everything is fine.
He's the President pro tem of the Senate. He's the most senior Republican in the chamber. He's 87-years-old. He is very high risk, by category, but he's strong, and I hope that carries him through easily. He says he's feeling well and working from home. Thank God!
He was just on the Senate floor yesterday, had his mask off, when he spoke, the same Senate floor where this happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DAN SULLIVAN (R-AK): Senator from Ohio.
SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D-OH): I'd start by asking the Presiding Officer to please wear a mask as he speaks and people below him are, I can't tell you what to do, but I know that the behavior--
[21:35:00]
SULLIVAN: I don't wear a mask when I'm speaking, like most senators.
BROWN: Well most senators--
SULLIVAN: So I'll - I don't need your instruction from you.
BROWN: I know you don't need my instruction, but there clearly isn't much interest in this body in public health.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: "Little interest" is an understatement, with Senator Ted Cruz following that moment up with his own unique brand of jackassery, tweeting the scene was "Idiotic. Sherrod Brown is being a complete ass. He wears a mask to speak, when nobody is remotely near him, as an ostentatious sign of fake virtue. Dan Sullivan was 50 feet away, presiding."
You are a Covidiot, Senator Cruz. I know you went to Harvard. I know you're really smart. You just try really hard not to act that way too often, especially where Trump is involved.
The Presiding Officer, a Republican from Alaska wasn't 50 feet away. He was right there with people under his nose.
You would think Cruz would have a lot more sense about how bad this virus is. You see what's happening in his State of Texas?
It just became the first to surpass a million cases. He doesn't say that often. Not to mention the hunger pandemic that is there. Thousands waiting in food lines in North Texas, this weekend, cars as far as you can see, filled with Americans in need when they shouldn't be.
We tried to reach out to the Senator, get him to take it off Twitter, bring it here, talk civilized, see if there's a better way forward. He said he's unavailable. We'll keep trying. Maybe he's got a new book to sell.
Let's prioritize what will make things better. But it has to start with the reality and the truth of the situation. We asked Senator Sherrod Brown to join us, and he has.
Senator, thank you.
BROWN: It's good to be with you. Thank you so much.
CUOMO: Tit for tat aside, what do you see in Senator Cruz's that that - the instinct to attack the idea of mask as safety, and to call you out as some kind of false virtue signaler?
BROWN: Well, what Senator Cruz - I mean, Senator Cruz doesn't have an intimate relationship with the truth in much of his public life. I don't know him personally well enough to know beyond that.
But the fact is that every time a senator stands up, and speaks, there is a Senate Stenographer, about six feet away, and senators that don't wear masks are putting them at risk.
I mean I know that Ted Cruz doesn't see the Senate Stenographer because she is, and she is, it's always a "She," in these cases, is one of those essential workers that usually doesn't get paid a lot of money, and exposes themselves, those essential workers, to the public, and then goes home, anxious at night about and - potentially infecting their families.
But I mean Ted Cruz doesn't see workers, generally, and particularly, essential workers, and that's what I'm in the Senate for, the dignity of work and fighting for those workers. That's why I said that. I was - they were six feet away.
But more importantly is these - these people that work in the Senate and people that are essential workers, bus drivers, people that prepare food, people that change hospital linen, grocery store workers, those are pretty much the forgotten people in this pandemic.
Congress isn't looking out for them. No $600-a-week unemployment when they're laid off, no help to stay in their homes, no help for their school, for their kids in public schools. Instead, it's political pronouncements that wearing a mask is some political statement that only the far-Left does.
And I don't even understand. History will look pretty badly on this whole mask thing, that it's dividing the parties. I mean it makes no sense.
CUOMO: Let's talk about the current state of play of need, and who is doing what.
BROWN: Sure.
CUOMO: To be fair to Senator Cruz, he says, "You know, the Republicans voted twice on very big dollar amount bills for relief for people dealing with COVID, and that the Democrats filibustered and stopped it." This was his response to my saying, "Don't worry about taking me on, on Twitter, take on all the hungry people you have waiting in line for food in your state."
Did they vote on two bills that would have helped that need of all those long lines in his State and states all over this country?
BROWN: They would have--
CUOMO: And you guys stopped them?
BROWN: Yes. They would have helped a tiny bit, but here's the real story.
Back in March, we voted unanimously for a generous package that made a big difference. It kept, according to The Pew Charitable Trusts, Foundation, I guess, it kept - it kept 12 million Americans out of poverty.
It essentially expired in July and August. Congress did nothing. Mitch McConnell, Ted Cruz, President Trump said they didn't - they didn't see any - they didn't feel any urgency to do anything.
So, every day, in Ohio, and Texas, and everywhere in between, and around the country, thousands of people fall into poverty, we wanted - Speaker Pelosi wanted to do a big package, then she said, OK, a little smaller, then a little smaller.
[21:40:00]
Republicans offered very little. Nothing close to $600-a-week, keeping people out of poverty, nothing for emergency rental assistance, very little for public schools, so they could open in-person, nothing for local governments, something for small business but not enough. Then they simply adjourned and said, "Sorry, no."
We want to come back. Instead of coming back to vote on a hack for the Federal Reserve, which the Senate actually defeated today, and a bunch more judges, McConnell - that's what McConnell brings us back for, exposing workers to this virus.
Instead, we should be quickly negotiating a package that will matter to get people through this cold winter, to get people through this pandemic, so they have a fighting chance.
CUOMO: Why aren't the Democrats to blame for not accepting something rather than nothing with so many people in need?
BROWN: Well because - because something was so little, something was a little bit. But we were always hopeful that the pressure of the election on President Trump - Trump said "Let's do something bigger," then he changed his mind and he was back and forth.
But we were hoping and still do for something significant enough to make a real impact the way it did, back in March. I mean it made a huge impact. 12 million people out of poverty. And since then, it's gotten worse and worse and worse.
And Republicans don't want - half the Republican Caucus has said they don't want to do one dollar. They want to do zero. So, we know that Republicans want to do just the minimal amount to get through the election, and then essentially nothing.
We hope they'll do something now. If they don't, we come back with something significant with the new Biden administration, but we hope they do it now. We ought to be in session right now doing that, instead of voting to put a political hack on the Federal Reserve, another Trumpster.
CUOMO: Every day that it continues without something being given to the American people is another day people have food insecurity, which I guess is some PC way of saying "Going hungry."
BROWN: Agree.
CUOMO: I don't know why we, you know, sometimes we kind of err on the side of gentle language that doesn't do justice to a reality.
That's your worst political point here, is every day that goes on without something is a day that people are hurting too much. At what point do you have to take the deal that's on the table just so something can get done?
BROWN: Well there - absolutely. There is no deal on the table now. I mean, McConnell has put no deal on the table. He's not negotiating.
CUOMO: But what about those two votes? Was that a mistake?
BROWN: Well those two votes, back in October, we all they were - they were called emaciated - the emaciated bill. I mean they were that skinny. That's a funny way of talking in the Senate. But yes, they did such a minimal amount.
I mean anything is better than nothing, I accept that. But it was - they wanted to just do a minimal amount at nothing close to $600-a- week, nothing for emergency rental assistance, nothing for local governments, and then they'd say, "See, we did something, we're done."
We want to keep the pressure. The public wants to keep the pressure on them, so they actually do something consequential that will matter to the American public. And what they were offering mattered so little that it - we thought and still think that we've got to get something more significant.
If McConnell would talk to us now again, instead of just wanting to do judges, we would - we would do something. I think there is a deal out there, Pelosi has tried and tried and tried and tried, half the Republican Caucus in the Senate says zero. That's a pretty - that's pretty hard to deal.
CUOMO: Sherrod - Senator Brown is in Ohio, obviously, for you, at home, who don't know, but he's a very recognizable figure. One in 10 people in his State say their household didn't have enough to eat because of difficulty affording food. That's why I harp on it. Also--
BROWN: Which you should. Which you should.
CUOMO: --COVID is not going anywhere, and it seems like it's going to get worse in part because of our politics. Governor DeWine, Republican in your State, has been right on the forefront, dealing with speaking truth about, and getting his State to a better place.
The political pushback and resistance to wearing a mask, social distancing, having Scott Atlas, that chooch that is advising the President, even though he knows nothing about a pandemic, saying resist, are we going to get into a much worse place before anything gets better?
BROWN: I don't know. I know that - that many that that - we're still seeing this fight about masks.
I mean you saw it on the Senate floor with the Senator from Alaska, that - that it's just an amazing thing that not wearing a mask has become a sign of being Republican. Wearing a mask means you're a Democrat. I mean this is insane.
Every public health official - imagine if Trump - imagine if Trump who has portrayed (ph) 10 months ago, nine months ago, and said, "You know, this is serious. I'm going to tell you the truth about it, treat you like adults. I'm going to wear a mask every day. I urge all of you to," imagine how different the world would be today.
Tens of thousands of people would still be alive, kids will be back in school, in-person, businesses would not have shut down, most people would be back working, because we would have dealt with this virus the way we should.
[21:45:00]
Yet, we're still seeing Republicans dismiss it, like Cruz. We're still seeing Republicans refuse to wear masks on the Senate floor, and on the House floor, in Columbus, and all kinds of places in between, as if that's a sign of strength, and manliness, and freedom to not wear a mask, and protect your fellow men and women.
CUOMO: Well, you said one thing that is definitely true, no matter what Party you're with. This time will be remembered. And what people said, and didn't say, and did, and didn't do will be scrutinized in depth.
Senator Sherrod Brown?
BROWN: Yes.
CUOMO: Best - best to you and your family, best to your State.
BROWN: Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Sir.
CUOMO: All right, God bless.
BROWN: You too.
CUOMO: The Trump Campaign loose in one court challenge after another. Never put through any kind of proof to you that this election is worth delaying the transition. No GOP-er has, who says that's the way it has to go.
It's not stopping Rudy Giuliani, though. He's pleading the President's case in the State that put Biden over the top, Pennsylvania. We have the top prosecutor from Pennsylvania with a look at why these last- minute battles appear doomed, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT. (END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Look, if you have proof of a problem, in the election, you go to court. You make it public. None of that has happened in a way that's compelled anybody except the other members of the Trump Party.
However, we'll see now, is the President's campaign willing to put up $8 million in Wisconsin? Because that's what they have to do, prepay if they want a recount there.
Meanwhile, in Pennsylvania, it proves the absurdity of anyone who tells you that this President could still win.
At the exact same time that the State Supreme Court ruled against the Trump Campaign that anything improper was done in terms of letting them observe ballot-counters, Rudy Giuliani was personally pushing the same conspiracy theory in federal court, even though the campaign has already dropped that claim - claim from the same case he is now arguing. And if that doesn't make sense to you, it shouldn't.
To help create some perspective, Josh Shapiro, Pennsylvania's Attorney General joins us now.
Good to see you A.G.
JOSH SHAPIRO, PENNSYLVANIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Good to be with you.
CUOMO: What is the status of the legitimacy of claims by the Trump Campaign against your State?
SHAPIRO: Well Chris, I have been telling you for months that they were going to file a bunch of lawsuits and lose a bunch of lawsuits. And that's exactly what has happened here in Pennsylvania.
Right now, they've got this last-ditch effort, in federal court, here in Pennsylvania, on a relatively narrow issue.
And I will tell you that there is no merit for their claims. There is nothing on fraud. There is nothing on illegal votes. They don't even have standing to bring these claims, you know, sort of Law School 101. You'd think Rudy Giuliani would know that.
And yet, here they are, trying to manufacture facts to fit a narrative to please the President. And frankly, it is not going to work, as I have been telling you for months. It hasn't worked, and it will not work to overturn the will of the people, here in Pennsylvania.
CUOMO: Do you see any proof of what has been brought before you, in the litigation that is being echoed in federal court somewhat that might lead this case to the Supreme Court?
SHAPIRO: No. And you use the word "Proof." Proof doesn't come in tweets. Proof doesn't come in conspiracy theories or press conferences from Rudy Giuliani.
Proof comes from introducing evidence into a court of law, something they have failed to do at every single turn, which is why they've either lost in court or had cases dismissed in court over and over and over again.
It seems like Rudy Giuliani and this gang of sycophants has an audience of one, and that is Donald Trump. They are trying to please him. But in the process, we've got serious issues in this country to deal with.
People are literally dying. We need to move forward. And we need to drop this manufactured crisis, this manufactured game of fraud that the President wants to play, and allow us to get back to the real work that has to happen in the United States of America today.
And I would just say to Rudy and, again, this gang of sycophants, "It's time to move on. It's just time to move on."
CUOMO: Jake Tapper had a clever phrase. He called them "The Gang That Couldn't Sue Straight," a play on "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight."
SHAPIRO: Jake is right.
CUOMO: From playing the line of laugh to cry, when you are in court, and you see Rudy Giuliani, doing what he is doing here, the Mayor for America, after 9/11, what's your perspective on that?
SHAPIRO: Chris, it's sad.
It's sad to watch someone who America looked to, at a time of need, descend into this type of lunacy, and conspiracy theory, and fear- mongering in a way that's not helping this country in any way, and is again, speaking to really an audience of one.
I see a man who is sad. I see a man who clearly forgot what he learned in law school. And I see a man who's got absolutely no evidence to back up the ridiculous claims that his client makes on Twitter every day.
CUOMO: A.G. Shapiro, thank you very much for taking time, during this tumultuous time, to talk to us. All the best to the family, be well. We are always here, as a platform, for the truth.
SHAPIRO: Thank you Chris. Good to be with you.
CUOMO: All right. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: In these turbulent times, there is really only one man's voice you need to hear, and it comes next, "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon, truth-speaker.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON: I thought you were going to say that while holding up a mirror because I know you.
CUOMO: No, no, no, no.
LEMON: Are you trying to get me in trouble? Because every night, you get a little earlier and earlier, and you know I am always running up those stairs.
CUOMO: As I say to you all the time, I don't want to owe you anything, and I don't want one second of time--
LEMON: Better now.
CUOMO: --to have been taken from your precious show.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And we had a lot of news fall on our watch tonight.
LEMON: Oh my Gosh, the Michigan thing. I mean, can we - can we talk about that?
CUOMO: "Wow! Michigan just refused to certify the election results! Having courage is a beautiful thing. The USA stands proud!"
LEMON: And then they--
CUOMO: They did have courage.
LEMON: They went back and turned it back over.
CUOMO: They wound up changing the vote.
LEMON: But I don't know if you've got a chance to watch, all of the Michiganders there, who, and the Detroiters, who were on a Zoom meeting, a Zoom Council meeting, or Election Board meeting, and they were letting them have it one after another after another after another. It was - it was live for a while.
And the outrage that the two people who - the two Republicans who refused to certify the election, they got an earful.
And I'm just wondering, in the fallout, from the local people, when they report back to us, either later tonight, or tomorrow, how much of an influence that those - those citizens, it was just regular everyday citizens, how much of an influence--
