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Don Lemon Tonight

Health Care Workers See Firsthand Dying Patients; Joe Biden Won In Wisconsin's Recount; Trump Allies Divided; HHS Secretary Refuse To Work With Biden Team; Jon Ossoff Keeps An Optimistic View. Aired 10- 11p ET

Aired November 18, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST (on camera): "CNN TONIGHT," the big show with the big man. D. Lemon right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): I swear, it's just, I poked myself in the eye. I'm not, it wasn't a tear. That last segment was amazing. It's -- that's the face of people who are hurting, just everyday Americans who look like Mr. Wilson, me, you, everyone.

That's what is important right now, and their whole -- there are a group of people in this country who can't seem to figure that out. Every day average Americans are hurting, people who hadn't been in distress before. That's your -- rightfully so you pay attention to it. And it just -- it brought a tear to my eye, it really did.

CUOMO: I just don't know, D. Lemon.

LEMON: What do you want to say? Go ahead, tell me.

CUOMO: I really don't know anymore. I mean I -- you know, I was -- you know, I come from a family where, you know, my father clawed his way into schools and into a profession where he didn't belong and he had all of these dreams and all he could focus on was helping other people who didn't get to the same place that he could from a similar condition.

And now, that's why he went into public service, and now you literally have a party -- and people will say, this isn't partisan. The hell it is not partisan. You have people indulging Trump in this B.S. farce of a fraud campaign with Rudy making a fool out of himself and people are starving in this country. And they are doing nothing but playing politics at best.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: I just -- if this doesn't do it, what does -- what do you -- what do we care about anymore? What matters?

LEMON: What matters? Politics, not even based in what they're doing, not even based in fact or reality. It's not based in reality. And they know what they're doing. They know exactly what they're doing. And there are a lot of people though who are getting played and who may not realize what they're doing.

That's what my open is going to be about, but it is so frustrating, Chris, when you think about -- when you just saw with the man there. Served his country, proud man, right?

There are lots of people similar to him who sadly are being manipulated by the people who are in power now. And it's up to us to call it out, and sadly it is up to us, I guess, to try to get people to work together to figure out some solution to this because there are folks in Washington who just don't want to do it.

They want the power, they want to -- they willfully mislead people. They know nothing is going to change with the outcome of this election. They know that there's no widespread voter fraud. They know that this president is playing to his own ego, that he can't -- he can't bring himself -- he can't fathom losing. It is sad.

So, everyone says, I want to come together, I want to come together. How do you come together with people who don't believe in facts and reality? I don't understand it. People who do not believe that one plus one equals two, how do you come together with that? We are going to have to do it. But I'm not sure where to start. Maybe that's why I'm not a politician. I don't know.

CUOMO: I don't even think it's about the math. I mean, it's just, how do you not see this? That story, you know, Neil Wilson, you know, sure he checks every box that should make you sick to your stomach, veteran, he can't wait to get back on his feet so he can help other people, lost his house, you know. And it's not the math, it is our mentality.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: It's our heart. I'm just sad. I am just always sad.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: The election, who wins, who loses, it's, nothing changes. It is just we are like consumed by suck and a pandemic is an afterthought. And I just -- I guess that at the end of the day the only truth is that you are what you do, and I can't define myself by how well done and I or Anderson or Jake or whoever it is pushes power to acknowledge, it's never going to work --

[22:05:08]

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- it's never going to be satisfying. We can't do enough. But what you can do in your own life, you know, I can drag my kids -- they don't have to be at school anymore it seems, you know, get their asses out of the house and go help the Hilton Cross at heart of the Hamptons and give people food.

LEMON: You were just reading my mind.

CUOMO: I mean, just food.

LEMON: We have to figure out. We're going to have to do something for Hilton.

CUOMO: I mean, just think about it, in America --

LEMON: In America.

CUOMO: -- food, 50 million people. The richest nation on the earth, the richest nation on the earth. If we have -- if they had millions of dollars for a bogus recount, think about where those millions of dollars can go to help people in your own local community. And you --

CUOMO: Just food.

LEMON: Just food. Listen, you just read my mind. We got to help Hilton out. We have to do some sort of fundraiser.

CUOMO: Poor Hilton. All Hilton does is try to help people and Don and I are talking about him. We're going to get all these people, they'll give them turkeys, they'll probably have frozen ones and throw them through his windows because everybody is so freaking angry about things that don't matter.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Heart of the Hamptons. Go and help out. So we're trying to help out in our community. So, heart of the Hamptons. Go out and try to figure out how you can help them.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Anyway, I'm sorry to take your time.

LEMON: You're not.

CUOMO: I don't know how to make things better anymore.

LEMON: That's OK. We got all the time in the world to try to help people. Right? That's why I love you.

CUOMO: I love you, D. Lemon.

LEMON: So, let's talk about this. I want you to listen to my open, Chris, because it's important. I want everyone to listen. OK. We've got to do something. We can't continue on this way. We really can't.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

And am I the only one who is old enough, the only one who remembers the election we had two weeks and one day ago? Am I? You know, the one where Joe Biden won.

Do you feel like you are being gaslit? That you are witnessing an attempted brainwashing of the American people in progress and no one is doing anything to stop it? Or how about -- how about the coronavirus pandemic nightmare, do you feel stuck in an endless cycle of death, destruction?

Where, as of tonight, more than a quarter of a million Americans are dead as this pandemic just ravages this country. It's horrible. It is beyond belief. Yet it is true.

The current president is willing to let death run rampant now while he hunkers down in the White House that he refuses to let go of and is unwilling to allow the incoming administration access to any information that would help them save lives when they take over. And that is being done intentionally. The president-elect is saying this today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: And there's a whole lot of things that are just -- we just don't have available to us, which unless it is made available soon we're going to be behind by weeks or months being able to put together the whole initiative relating to the biggest promise we have with two drug companies coming along and finding 95 percent effectiveness, efficiency in the vaccines, which is enormous promise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Notice he is out there talking and doing -- meeting with experts, but -- an expert we should be listening to is Dr. Anthony Fauci who says he wishes he could share information with Biden's team.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: There has not been any form of discussions with the Biden people on this. That kind of thing makes it easier to just go from one to the other. So, yes, I would wish that we would be able to do that. That would be helpful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Yes, it would. This election was supposed to be about making the choice on how to move forward, about putting our divisions aside, finding common ground as Americans. You would think at the very, very least that we could agree that mass death is bad and we should use the tools that we have to stop it, right? No?

If we cannot agree on that and we can't agree on the truth of who won the election, where the hell are we? Even worse, where the hell are we going? People, how do we get through to each other? How do we find some places to agree? How do you do that? How do you do it as a -- when a significant portion of this country, starting with the current president, is refusing to accept reality?

[22:10:08] That's where we have to start. There has to be an acceptance of reality. So how do we get through with each other when a significant -- when a significant portion of America refuses to agree on what is real, on reality?

Listen, I don't want to talk down to anyone. I never want to talk down to anyone. I don't look down on anyone. Talk to people who know me personally and this is not my M.O.

Night after night after night, day after day, my colleagues and I work to get the facts to the American people. There's a huge chunk, a huge chunk of people, they're out there and they don't want facts. There is an entire party enthrall to a president who lies nonstop.

There is an entire media universe devoted to propping up those lies and making those lies appear true. It is not true. It's an echo chamber. It's messing with your mind. It is not true. That's where I talk about one plus one equals two. One plus one equals two does not -- is not true in that echo chamber. It is disorienting. It is disillusioning, and it is extremely dangerous.

What the president is doing right now is dangerous. It is so hard to believe, but this is what's happening, that some people are refusing to accept restrictions that could save our lives and the lives of the people we love.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think a lot of the guidelines you're seeing are Orwellian. Let me start by saying the CDC has put out considerations as we prepare to go about Thanksgiving, about socially distancing, wearing masks, doing what you can.

There's a whole list, a page of very good considerations. And in that they say we're not recommending a certain number of people but we are giving considerations that you should put in place. And I think that's the American way. The American people know how to protect their health. We've dealt with COVID for many months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): The press is evil. Orwellian? My gosh. Let me quote some more Orwellian. Quote, "it's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words." And Kayleigh has done beautifully, a mouth piece for an administration that is consistently denying the truth, throwing lies back at us.

You know, I'm sure if you tuned in, if you've been watching this network and me for a long time, Kayleigh used to sit on this very show and she used to tell the truth about Trump. But then, you know, ambition kicked in. Now she sits there at the White House and she tells lies.

Did you know she -- there's a clip with her calling CNN her network on our network. She's not the only one. This is -- I want you to see what CNN's KFile uncovered. One of the president's ride or die defenders, his legal adviser Jenna Ellis wrote about his supporters, this was back in March of 2016.

People always say why you talking about Trump supporters this way? This is one of his apologists. Quote. "His supporters don't care about facts or logic. They aren't seeking truth. Trump probably could shoot someone in the middle of NYC and not lose support. And this is the cumulative reason why this nation is in such terrible shape. We don't have truth seekers, we have narcissists." Jenna Ellis, quote.

The hypocrisy is relentless. It's never ending. They don't care. The president doesn't care what he destroys as long as he could claim victory, OK as long as he can claim victory.

Today he tweeted out a Reuters poll. The poll shows that Trump's defiance of the election results and his false claims are already affecting the public's confidence in American democracy.

So, the president who before he lost to Joe Biden, he used to tweet polls about winning, he's now tweeting polls about America is losing faith in our democracy and our elections, as if that is winning for him. Maybe it is.

[22:15:09]

If winning is a zero-sum game where he wins and our democracy loses. Believe me, he would be OK with that. Are you?

Tonight, he remains holed up behind closed doors in the White House nursing his grievances. Former adviser to the former president Valerie Jarrett tweeting, someone is hiding in the basement and it is not Joe Biden.

Where was Joe Biden? Holding a virtual round table with frontline workers today, and getting emotional as he listened to -- listen to this. This is Mary Turner. Mary Turner is an ICU nurse on the night shift in the COVID unit, the head of Minnesota Nurses Association. Here she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY TURNEY, HEAD, MINNESOTA NURSES ASSOCIATION: I myself have held the hand of dying patients who are crying out for their families that they can't see. I've taken care of co-workers as they fight for their lives on a ventilator, and knowing that they got sick because of the hospital or their government hasn't protected them. I'm sorry I'm so emotional.

BIDEN: No.

TURNER: It is just --

BIDEN: You got me emotional. I observed the incredible mental strain on nurses in ICU units.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): I don't care what you think about Joe Biden or if you voted for him or not, don't really care. That is a human reaction to a horrible situation. That is a recognition that we can't go on like this.

Have you heard the current president ever speak that way? We have to find a way to break this spell. We have to do it so that we can get healthy, so we can get whole.

People tell me that they like that Trump is a fighter. You can be a fighter. You can fight hard as you can fight. You can pull out all of the stops for every single vote. You can even take it to court. But when you lose you got to stand aside, you got to get out of the way, and you got to get ready for the next fight. Now it is the other guy's turn.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I mean it when I say we have to reach out, reach out to those people who didn't vote for us. Try to -- try to determine what their fears and concerns were. Some are maybe not -- anyway, I won't say it. But I think at least half of those folks voted against us are just looking for answers, they're looking for answers. They're not bad folks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): That is how we do it in America. If you believe that this was -- the election was rigged despite all of the evidence otherwise, if you believe all of the lies that the president has been putting out on the tweets, again, I don't want to talk down to people but you're being played.

The president, state-run media, conservative media echo chambers, they are playing you for suckers because it is not the truth. Wake up, people. No one is looking down at you. No one is looking down at you.

There are people trying to help you, trying to help this country come together. You've got to reach out, but you have to believe in facts and reality. There's no way to do it if you don't. If you don't, there is no way we're ever going to come together and we'll continue in this loop, this feedback loop of disinformation.

I'm not here to -- I'm here to inform you. I am telling you the truth. Wake up, please, for the good of yourselves and the country.

[22:20:02]

You know why? Because this president, he's running out of road in his attempt to overturn this election. He's running out of road in the courts, so he is resorting to Hail Mary recounts.

I'm going to talk to attorneys general in two states that he is targeting, but the president-elect isn't wasting time looking back at an election that he has already won.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I'm confident, I'm confident together we can literally put this country back on a path where we can once again lead the 21st century.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The president's long-shot lawsuits fizzling in the courts as he still refuses to accept the results of the election. Today his campaign paying $3 million for a partial recount in Wisconsin, a state that Joe Biden won by more than 20,000 votes.

Boy. The recounts taking place in Milwaukee County and Dane County. Both are Democratic strongholds that Biden won by big margins. He is ahead by more than 180,000 votes in each.

[22:25:00]

Milwaukee County also happens to have the largest black population in Wisconsin. Those results coming after Republicans in Michigan's Wayne County temporarily blocked the certification of results before backing down. Biden won there, won there very handily.

Wayne is the state's most populous county and includes Detroit, a city where four out of every five residents, black.

Joining me now, Wisconsin Attorney General Josh Kaul, and Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel. Thank you both for joining. Good evening. I really appreciate it.

Attorney General Call, I'm going to start with you. I want to play something that a Trump campaign lawyer said about this partial recount in your state. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM TROUPIS, TRUMP CAMPAIGN LEAD COUNSEL: They're the counties that have in our view the most significant discrepancies and problems and improper behavior that will allow us, we think, sufficient numbers of votes to overturn this election. In fact, we fully expect that we'll win this recount and at the conclusion of it the number of votes for Donald Trump will exceed those for Joe Biden.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Set the record straight for us. Have you heard about any improper behavior?

JOSH KAUL, WISCONSIN ATTORNEY GENERAL: No, not at all. In fact, we had a remarkably smooth process. You know, there were election officials around our state who were working to prepare to respond to a really extraordinary situation, conducting a presidential election in the midst of a pandemic and the process went incredibly smoothly. We had record turnout, and there are no issues.

What we have seen though post-election is all sorts of --

LEMON: I think we -- we lost him. Yes. Attorney -- sorry. You cut out for a moment. Can you -- can you finish your thought?

KAUL: Yes. Now what we're seeing is an attack on counties that have a majority of the black population in Wisconsin. This really is a Jim Crow-like attack that we're seeing between what we're seeing in Wisconsin and what we saw in Michigan on the results of this election.

LEMON: They're denying it though. They're saying, it's laughable, it's is outrageous. This is not, this is not racist at all. It has nothing to do with race.

KAUL: Well, there's a margin of over 20,000 votes in Wisconsin. It's even bigger in Michigan. We had a recount four years ago and nothing like this has been ever overturned. What we're seeing is an attempt to heavily scrutinize votes in heavily democratic and heavily minority areas with the goal of trying to disenfranchise our fellow Wisconsinites who wanted their voices heard in this election.

LEMON: Yes. Just because you say it isn't so, I think the facts of what's happening shows what you're saying, attorney general.

Attorney General Nessel, we saw what happened in Michigan's Wayne County just last night. Now President Trump is tweeting out lies that the number of votes in Michigan more than the number of people who voted. Are the GOP and Trump trying to steal the election in Michigan? What's going on here?

DANA NESSEL, MICHIGAN ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, I mean it certainly appears that way. I mean if you put this in the context, so I live in Wayne County. We have 1.7 million people who live here. So there are at least 12 states in the country that have fewer people than we do here in Wayne County. And yet we had the Republicans on the board of canvassers in Wayne County initially refused to certify the election, which was -- I mean it was unprecedented, nothing that I had seen before. Pardon me.

LEMON: That's OK.

NESSEL: Sorry. You know, only after several hours of public comment where they were scorned and ridiculed and shamed did they decide to go ahead and actually do their job, which, by the way, by law they're mandated to do.

This isn't a choice that they get to make, and certify the election but only after one of the Republicans said that she would be willing to certify all of the suburban areas outside of Detroit but not the city of Detroit. So, I would say that they really -- you know, they kept on their mask but they really pulled out their hoods during the course.

LEMON: But these are -- the suburban areas are -- especially there's one city that's like 95 percent white that they were perfectly willing to certify, who actually had more irregularities than in Wayne County, am I correct?

NESSEL: That's right. The city of Lavonia, exactly. LEMON: Interesting. So, Attorney General Kaul, pretty simple question here. Do you have any doubt at all that Wisconsin's votes will go to Joe Biden?

KAUL: No, I have none. The margin is far more, multiple times more than any margin that has ever been overcome in a recount. And the fundamental problem that the Trump campaign team has here is people showed up to vote, votes were legally cast and more people voted for Joe Biden. And at the end of the day that's going to be what determines the outcome of this election.

[22:30:00]

LEMON: Yes. Thank you both. Good luck. I know it's a busy time for you and I really appreciate you joining us here on CNN. Thank you so much.

NESSEL: Thanks for having us.

LEMON: Thank you.

KAUL: Thanks.

LEMON: The president is spreading false and damaging conspiracies that his followers, millions of people, actually believe. Joe Biden is still saying tonight that he can unite this country. How will he do it? We're going to take a look about -- and talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, there are new signs emerging that people in President Trump's orbit are growing frustrated over his refusal to concede the election.

Sources are telling CNN a handful of current and former Trump administration officials have quietly started to reach out to members of President-elect Joe Biden's transition team, but many Republicans still publicly supporting President Trump stonewalling or silently standing by him.

[22:35:01]

Joining me now is New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman. We're always happy to have him. By the way, he's author of "Thank You For Being Late: An Optimist's Guide to Thriving in the Age of Accelerations." Good to see you, Mr. Friedman. I appreciate you joining.

THOMAS FRIEDMAN, COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Great to be with you.

LEMON: So, you were worried about the fate of America before the election. How are you feeling now?

FRIEDMAN: Well, you know, quite mixed. On the one hand, Don, you know, we actually just had a remarkable election. More Americans voted in this election than any time in our history, and their neighbors and friends went out and counted the votes, and they did it despite a spreading pandemic.

And they seem to have done it quite well. It's really the most impressive election we've had since, you know, Lincoln defeated McClelland in 1864 in the middle of a Civil War. That's the good news.

The bad news, of course, is that we have a president who has -- who has really sought to soil this amazing achievement by fraudulently, you know, claiming fraud. But you know, Don, I have been thinking. I was listening to the show before I came on here that there's one silver lining of this whole process of recounts.

You know, when Americans see, when all of this is done they are going to see two things I believe. One is that the votes really were counted fairly. I mean there will be some discrepancies of a few hundred votes here and there, and the courts really are not rising to all of these bogus challenges.

And in a weird way it may -- it may strengthen the system and it may actually strengthen Biden's legitimacy because there's one thing no one is going to be able to legitimately claim when all of this is over and that's the election was stolen, that the votes weren't counted properly.

LEMON: You have been -- you must be reading my text messages that I have been sending to people saying the same exact thing when they started this whole recount thing I said, but in the end it will show that the election was real and it may break people from -- some people from their spell. So we'll see.

I think you are right about that. A significant number of Republicans though, Tom, they're being led to believe that President Trump rightfully won the election. The well is being poisoned before Joe Biden even begins, before he even gets in office. What does that mean for the Biden presidency when it does begin?

FRIEDMAN: Well, I think two things are on my mind right now, Don. is that, will -- once Trump is gone, what will be this Republican Party? We really don't know. Will he continue to hold a spell over them? We really don't know. I'm not going to make any predictions about that.

But I think one of the things that could emerge is a group of moderate, sane conservatives who realize that this version of the GOP is really unhealthy, that the country needs a sane, conservative movement. If we have a healthy conservative movement, we will have a healthier liberal movement I believe.

And I wouldn't be surprised if you get some kind of breakaway thing going and that could be a real challenge to Republicans. Because if you have a sane conservative party split off, if it just wins 5, 10 percent of the vote, that party can't win any national election. So, I think once the spell of Trump is broken, Don, anything is possible.

LEMON: So, you know, you covered other parts of the world for decades, right? You've seen firsthand what can happen when people lose faith in government institutions. Are you confident America will find a better path? FRIEDMAN: Well, what worries me right now, Don, is that we're just in

this moment of intense insecurity. We don't know who is in charge. We don't know where the pandemic is going. And because of the nature of how news is being produced these days and this administration, we don't know what to believe.

And I don't recall in our history a moment of this kind of anxiety. Now, I don't know how we do it, Don, but when this election is over and Trump passes from the scene, we have got to find a way as a society, Republicans and Democrats together, we have got to find a way to restore the stigma to lying.

LEMON: Yes.

FRIEDMAN: What's been broken here is the stigma on lie. We now have not only people now just lying freely without any worry about being called out on it. Lying and enervating people, enraging people has become an industry. It's going to need its own line, you know, GDP report, you know.

And somehow, we as a society, we got to work on that because you can't have a democracy without truth and trust. Without truth we can't agree where to go. Without trust we can't go there together.

LEMON: Got it.

FRIEDMAN: And so, we need a weekend retreat.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, I have to run. I just want to tell you, this is November 5th at 6.32 p.m. Someone who works in politics said, I hear Trump is going in all-in on fraud.

[22:40:00]

And this is my response. Yes, makes him look weak, exposes his frailty. Good for system ultimately because it will show system is not fraudulent, no widespread voter fraud. Imperfect system, yes. Widespread fraud, no. That was on November 5th. So, you're reading my mind.

FRIEDMAN: Great.

LEMON: Yes.

FRIEDMAN: Think alike.

LEMON: And let's hope -- let's hope we are both right. Thank you very much.

FRIEDMAN: I hope so.

LEMON: I appreciate it.

FRIEDMAN: Good time.

LEMON: And next, the U.S. passing a quarter of a million deaths from coronavirus today. But Health and Human Services staffers are being told not to speak with Biden's transition team. Former HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius reacts next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Sad to report there's another sadly milestone in this pandemic. The virus has killed more than a quarter of a million Americans, and yet Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar saying today he will not work with President-elect Joe Biden's team, at least not until General Services Administrator Emily Murphy ascertains that Biden won the election.

[22:45:09]

An administration official is telling CNN that HHS staffers have been told if they are contacted by anyone from Biden's team that they are not to communicate with them and instead should alert the deputy surgeon general.

That as a pandemic rages on, more than 160,000 new cases just today, more than 1,700 deaths reported. And the number of people hospitalized in the U.S. soaring.

Let's discuss now with former HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius. Secretary Sebelius, good to see you. Thank you for your time in advance. So, what is going on --

(CROSSTALK)

KATHLEEN SEBELIUS, FORMER HHS SECRETARY: Nice to see you, Don.

LEMON: -- at HHS and bottom line this for us, will this delay and lack of coordination cost lives?

SEBELIUS: Well, what is going on at HHS and basically throughout the government is shocking and totally unprecedented. A transition should be an easy transfer of power to make sure that the incoming team doesn't drop the ball, that all the Americans get the services they deserve and need for their daily lives.

But we're in the midst of a pandemic, and I don't think there's any question that any delay in transferring information that could help the Biden team plan for the future is potentially going to cost lives.

We are -- we are in a total crisis and we have a president who has not mentioned this, a petulant president who only talks about his own made-up grievances and vote recounts. He cannot acknowledge the fact that the virus is raging. He can't acknowledge the fact that it's totally out of control.

Will not talk to the American public honestly about what needs to happen, and so we need the Biden team to be even more prepared than they would otherwise. We need them to get ready for the massive vaccination campaign once we have a safe and effective vaccine announced. And we have two very strong candidates now emerging. We need to make

sure that we have the PPE to actually deal with this current surge. This is a very dangerous time and no one should be locking the transition team out of agencies.

The president, you know, who is on his way out can recount all of the votes he wants, can run them through whatever counters. That doesn't stop the transition from going forward since the election has been called.

LEMON: Listen, you have expertise -- and I know it is frustrating. You have expertise in this and that's the reason we have you here, because you are seeing these numbers, Secretary, these latest number in this pandemic. I want to know what your concerns. What concerns you most about where we are in this fight right now?

SEBELIUS: Well, Don, you gave some of the numbers, but I think you need to put them also into context. That case rate is up 80 percent in the last two weeks. So, we are on this steep, steep climb. The death rate is up almost 40 percent in the last two weeks. We are going exactly in the wrong direction as we head into the coldest months of the year when more and more people will be inside.

We can compare that to Europe, who has seen a second spike. And what's going on there is a very coordinated message country to country where all the country leaders are agreeing that first schools are a priority and, secondly, that they are beginning to restrict activities and urge people to not only wear masks and social distance but cut back on activities so children can stay in school.

They are also driving money to the affected populations. We have Mitch McConnell sitting in the United States Senate doing nothing. He will not pass or negotiate a package of resources to state and local governments, which are going to need to massively upgrade for a vaccination campaign to individuals so that they may be able to look at restricted activities and know that they can feed their kids and pay their rent.

LEMON: Right.

SEBELIUS: And we have no coordinated message strategy. So, we are -- we are absolutely in the wrong direction, and the president's team refusing to let the transition take place, refusing to let people get into agencies and see what the logistic planning is, where the gaps are in agencies. It is really going to cause people to die.

LEMON: It's unbelievable what is happening there. And Secretary, listen, we appreciate you coming on. We're going to have you back. Thank you very much. Thanks so much.

A recount --

SEBELIUS: Good to be with you.

LEMON: -- a run-off. Everyone is watching Georgia. I'm going to speak with one of the candidates hoping to represent that state and flip the Senate.

[22:50:01]

He wants to turn it blue. Jon Ossoff, next.

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LEMON: Let's talk about Georgia now. Georgia election officials say that they'll release the results of their election audit tomorrow after recounting the nearly five million votes cast.

Georgia secretary of state telling CNN that Joe Biden will still take the state, and they have not seen any widespread voter fraud. Next up for Georgia, two Senate runoff elections that will determine the balance of power in the Senate.

So, joining us now is Jon Ossoff, he is a Democratic challenger running against Georgia Senator David Perdue. Good to see you, Mr. Ossoff. Thank you very much for joining.

So, despite allegations of fraud by Trump, many national Republicans, Georgia's Secretary of State Brad Raffensperber -- Raffensperger told Jake Tapper today that he hasn't seen widespread fraud. Do you expect these allegations to be a problem in your run-off election?

JON OSSOFF (D-GA), SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: Well, we've seen is our two incumbent Republican senators attacking Georgia's Republican secretary of state. It looks to me, basically, because he let too many Democrats vote. I think that they wanted voter suppression to deliver the state for them.

And the overwhelming Democratic turnout means Trump has lost in Georgia. Rather than accept that, they're indulging Trump's denial, which, by the way, is impairing an orderly transition of power that can save lives and help the incoming administration invest in the economic recovery.

It's just not at all what Georgians are interested in hearing right now. There are lines at food banks, families about to celebrate Thanksgiving without family, people who are on the verge of foreclosure and eviction and this political nonsense is a huge distraction.

[22:55:08]

LEMON: Listen, and I know, I should tell people mail-in ballots for your election went out today. I'm sure you're encouraging people to mail in their ballots, right, to take part in that process?

OSSOFF: Absolutely. This election is coming up fast and we're running a historic voter registration and get out the vote program. So folks who are in Georgia, December 14th is the first day of early voting. Now is the time to request an absentee ballot.

Election day is January 5th, but don't put it off. Make a plan to vote. And for folks who want to help us power this turnout effort, it's electjon.com. We are going to get badly outspent in terms of attack ads. But we have the advantage in terms of our hustle on the ground and electjon.com is where to help us power that JOTB (Ph) effort.

LEMON: So, the Washington Post is reporting Republicans are worried about the Georgia senate run offs and privately wondering if the president could be a political burden. Do you think anti-Trump sentiment will be a factor in your race, Jon?

OSSOFF: I think the problem that the GOP here has is that the national Republican Party has no leader and has no agenda other than trying to ensure that Joe Biden fails. And what the country needs is for this incoming administration to succeed, to empower public health experts.

Like you know this, Don, we have the CDC, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the premier epidemiological agency in the country here in Georgia. We need to be resourcing it and empowering its scientists and doctors to lead the pandemic response.

In other words, what hasn't been happening for the last eight months. We need to rush economic and financial relief to families and businesses that are on the brink. The Senate is adjourning tonight yet again with nothing to show the American people who are suffering. It's like they have no idea what's going on in the real world.

LEMON: Yes. What is -- what is David Perdue -- what is Senator Perdue, I should say, what is he afraid of? Because he won't debate you ahead of your January run off?

OSSOFF: He's refusing to debate. He seems to be having some issues with self-confidence. He didn't perform very well when we debated in Savanna a few weeks back. I asked Senator Perdue as you maybe saw in the clip that went around why he voted to repeal protections for pre- existing conditions, why he had insisted COVID was no deadlier than the flu while he was loading up on vaccine and medical stocks.

By the way, some more news today about David Perdue's use of his office to enrich himself, pumping and dumping in defense manufacturers while chairing a critical subcommittee on the Senate armed services committee.

I mean, this guy has been enriching himself in office and I called him out on it. He didn't like it and he refuse to debate. And my message for him, Don, is that if he didn't want to answer questions in public or debate his opponent, that's fine. He just shouldn't run for re- election to the Senate.

LEMON: Yes. Jon, thank you. Good luck to you. By the way --

OSSOFF: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you. Some of the reporting that he mentioned not necessarily CNN's reporting, but as he mentions, it is out there.

We would -- we'd like to have Jon Ossoff's opponent Senator David Perdue on this show. We reached out to his team today about an interview, but we haven't heard back. So, hopefully he'll come on. We'll be right back.

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