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Biden Calls on GSA Administrator to Ascertain Election Results; Pfizer, Moderna Vaccines to Soon Face FDA Approval Process; South Dakota Governor Defends Decision not to Enact Mask Mandate. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired November 19, 2020 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Make no mistake, the math does not work. President Trump cannot win this election. But maybe no one told him that. John Avlon is here with a reality check. Hi, John.

JOHN AVLON, SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Make no mistake, we are watching Donald Trump versus democracy. Trump campaign legal adviser Jenna Ellis gave up the game when she cheered the brief, perhaps unprecedented, and still-contested partisan deadlock over certifying the vote in Detroit. Quote, "if the state board follows suit, the Republican state legislature will select the electors. Huge win for @real Donald Trump." Now, she was explicitly hoping that the Republican state legislature would try to overrule the popular vote in Michigan, which Biden won by more than 157,000 votes.

Now, the good news is that it ain't going to happen. Michigan state law says the electoral votes go to the presidential candidate who won the popular vote, which is Biden, big-time. And the state's GOP legislative leaders have pledged not to change that law, no matter what the president's allies may ask. The bad news is that Ellis' statement amounts to an official endorsement of Trump campaign strategy to try and stay in power by ignoring the will of the people. Seem extreme? Well, then, take a look at the latest court filing in Pennsylvania backed by Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani, because this isn't subtle.

Quote, "plaintiffs will seek the remedy of Trump being declared the winner of the legal votes cast and thus the recipient of Pennsylvania's electors." Biden won that state by more than 82,000 votes, so democracy be damned. Another stop on the rage-tweet crazy train is the baseless insistence that Dominion Voting Systems deleted or changed more than 3 million Trump votes. Now, Georgia's recount makes it clear that the Dominion System counted the votes accurately. So, one more bogus claim down the drain.

But there remains the danger that team Trump is just trying to delay election certification to disrupt the electoral college and cast doubt on the outcome. With a new Monmouth Poll showing that 77 percent of Trump backers believe Biden won due to fraud. Now, this is fundamentally false, but it is dangerous for our democracy and team Trump doesn't care. They'd rather ruin if they cannot rule. And some of them probably know better. CNN's "KFILE" found a March 17th post by the same Jenna Ellis which said, I could spend a full-time job just responding to the ridiculously illogical, inconsistent and blatantly stupid arguments supporting Trump.

But here's the thing, his supporters don't care about facts or logic. Indeed. But now Ellis' interests and her paycheck are on the other side of the equation, as she tells CNN her opinion has changed as well. But the real culpability belongs to Republican Trump allies who have been coddling his denials at the expense of our democracy. Remember after his impeachment, a number of senators argued that Trump would be chastened, and that the people should decide his fate in the election.

[07:35:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: House managers said over and over again, the Senate had to protect our nation's free and fair elections, but they are seeking to overturn a fairly won election with absurd charges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: Now, of course, it is President Trump who is trying to overturn a free and fair election with absurd charges. This is a time for choosing, and at this point, silence is complicit. Republicans need to decide whether they will condone an outright attempt to overturn the election. This is a test of whether you believe in our country more than a cultive personality. And it shouldn't be a tough call. It's Donald Trump versus democracy. Which side are you on? And that's your reality check.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You know, thanks so much, John, and I have to say, our next discussion has everything to do with what you just spoke about. President-elect Joe Biden is calling on Emily Murphy; the head of the General Services Administration to officially ascertain the winner of the presidential election so that the transition can officially begin. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: The law says that the General Services Administration has a person who recognizes, who the winner is. And then they have to have access to all the data and information that the government possesses to be prepared. And it doesn't require there to be an absolute winner. It says the apparent winner. The apparent winner.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So, the last time there was a delay in the General Service Administrator ascertaining a winner was during the recount in 2000. George W. Bush and Al Gore. I want to bring in David Barram, he was the GSA administrator at the time. We're so happy to have you here because if anyone can shed light on this situation, it's you. I do want to start, you spoke to the GSA Administrator Emily Murphy before November 3rd. What did you both talk about?

DAVID BARRAM, FORMER GSA ADMINISTRATOR: Well, we -- she was imagining what could -- might be going to happen at this election, so she called me. We had never talked before and because I had been there, she just wanted to hear my experiences, what did I -- what did I live through. So we chatted about that, and it was a very cordial conversation. I didn't try to push her too hard, I just looked at her and I said, Emily, you seem to me to want to do the right thing, so do it. You know, my mother always told me, you do the right thing and live with the consequences, you'll be fine. But -- you know, then I texted her once or twice or maybe three times, and she came back once. But that's all we've done, that's all we've talked about.

BERMAN: So, one of the things that she has cited in her current refusal to ascertain the outcome of the election, is the 2000 recount. Ascertainment was delayed then. What's different between what you went through and the facts on the ground in 2000 versus today?

BARRAM: Well, it's dramatically different. There were 535 votes separating the two candidates in one state, Florida, and both George Bush and Al Gore and all of their team, they knew exactly what the deal was. It was whoever won Florida would win the election. And that's all we were dealing with. And so, it was not settled in Florida. And it was clearly not settled in Florida until the Supreme Court ruled. And then when the Supreme Court ruled, Al Gore immediately conceded. And by the way, up until then, no, the "AP", which I considered the gold standard of calling elections, had not called it for anybody.

The "AP" and everybody else in the world has called it, except for Donald Trump, has called the election for Joe Biden this year. So it's very different.

BERMAN: I know you're reluctant to directly criticize Emily Murphy, sort of the code of being a GSA administrator. But let me pose this question to you this way, if you were the administrator right now, you say your mother always taught you how to do the right thing, what would you do?

BARRAM: Well, you know, I don't know everything she knows, but what I know, and from listening to what you said in all the news and reading -- you know, I can still read even at this age, and I noticed, and I -- to me, at plus, to me, it's clear that we should be recognizing Joe Biden as the president-elect. I also noted that George Bush, one of the -- one of the contenders in 2000 has said the outcome is clear. That's good enough for me.

BERMAN: So, if it were you, you would ascertain.

BARRAM: Yes.

[07:40:00]

BERMAN: There's a little bit of a chicken and egg thing going on right now with Republican politicians, who say, well, we're not going to come out and recognize the winner of this election, because the GSA hasn't ascertained that Joe Biden won. But, what would happen --

BARRAM: You know --

BERMAN: What would the impact be -- what would the impact be if some of these Republican politicians, leaders in Washington came out, and said, we think Joe Biden won and the GSA should ascertain. What difference would that make?

BARRAM: Oh, it would be fantastic, and that's exactly what ought to happen. These Republican senators and cabinet members who are letting Emily set out there twisting in the wind strike me as not courageous. They're kind of -- they being not courageous and asking her to be courageous, it doesn't -- it's just not right. I mean, I think she can -- she cannot lead -- she cannot avoid the responsibility that's hers to ascertain. But it sure would be better for all of us if we -- she had a lot more cover.

BERMAN: They would provide her cover. There are friends of hers right now who are saying she's feeling a lot of pressure. What should we make of that?

BARRAM: Oh, I believe she is. I'm very sympathetic to her. It's a tough spot to be in. I just think she has to finally come to a decision, and I -- and as like I say, I'm sympathetic for her, and I think it will make everything work when she finally does.

BERMAN: David Barram, if anyone knows the situation, it's you. We thank you for joining us this morning and providing such important perspective.

BARRAM: Thank you.

BERMAN: Right, two drug companies reporting positive results from their coronavirus vaccines. So, what's next in the process to get them authorized, to get those shots in people's arms?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:45:00]

CAMEROTA: Pfizer and Moderna have announced positive results for their vaccine trials. CNN's Elizabeth Cohen explains what's next for the two vaccines.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The scourge of COVID-19. More than a quarter of a million people dead in the United States. But now some hope. Large clinical trials have shown that not just one, but two vaccines are about 95 percent effective against coronavirus.

GUSTAVE PERNA, CHIEF OPERATIONS OFFICER, OPERATION WARP SPEED: We are making steady progress and we are ready to execute.

COHEN: So to get America vaccinated, here are the next steps. Step one. Pharmaceutical companies Pfizer and Moderna will apply to the FDA for authorization for their vaccines. Pfizer says it will apply Friday and Moderna expects to apply in the next few weeks. Step two, FDA staff will review the data to see whether the vaccine is safe and whether it works. That's expected to take a few weeks. Then step three, an FDA Advisory Committee of independent experts will review the data. Those meetings will be public and a source tells CNN they've been scheduled for December 8th, 9th, and 10th.

PAUL OFFIT, FDA VACCINE AND RELATED PRODUCTS ADVISORY COMMITTEE: The committee is composed of academics, researchers who are not associated with the pharmaceutical industry, not associated with the government.

COHEN: On that FDA Advisory Committee, Dr. Paul Offit; a pediatrician at the University of Pennsylvania.

When you're sitting in that meeting, what standard will you be using in your own mind?

OFFIT: So, I think one, when I'm sitting there, listening to those data presented to us at the FDA's Vaccine Advisory Committee meeting, I will be looking to answer the question, would I take this vaccine myself?

COHEN (voice-over): And finally, step four, if the FDA gives the green light, a day or two later, another advisory committee of independent experts, this one with the CDC, will review the data in an open meeting. They'll make official recommendations about who should get vaccinated and who should get vaccinated first. Dr. William Schaffner; an infectious disease expert at Vanderbilt University sits on that CDC Advisory Committee.

WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, CDC ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON IMMUNIZATION PRACTICES: We're interested in complete transparency. These meetings are open to the public on your computer.

COHEN: Once the CDC panel gives its recommendations, Americans can be vaccinated against COVID-19.

Will you take it if it's approved?

SCHAFFNER: I will definitely take it if it is approved.

COHEN: And will you recommend it to your family and friends?

SCHAFFNER: I will definitely recommend it to my family and friends. These vaccines are going to be effective and they will be safe. Otherwise, they will not be approved. We will look at that very critically.

COHEN: Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: Our thanks to Elizabeth. And be sure to watch "CUOMO PRIME TIME" for an exclusive interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci. That happens tonight at 9:00 Eastern on CNN. BERMAN: So, South Dakota dealing with this huge rise in coronavirus

infections, and now a big rise in deaths, yet their governor opposing calls for a statewide mask mandate. A doctor on the frontlines joins us with just the emotional toll this is all taking, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:50:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. KRISTI NOEM (R-SD): Some have said that my refusal to mandate masks is a reason why our cases are rising here in the state of South Dakota. And that is not true. There are 41 states that have some kind of a mask mandate, cases are on the rise in 39 of those 41 states.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: That's South Dakota's Governor Kristi Noem explaining why she does not believe in a statewide mask mandate unlike her Republican colleagues in North Dakota and Iowa. Cases, hospitalizations and deaths in South Dakota have hit record levels in recent days. And the test positivity rate there is still the highest in the nation at nearly 60 percent. Joining us now is Clarissa Barnes; she's an internal medicine physician at Avera Health. She's been on the frontlines battling this surge in South Dakota. Doctor, thank you very much for being here. What do you say to Governor Noem and her logic about other places now have a mask mandate, but they're still seeing a spike?

CLARISSA BARNES, INTERNAL MEDICINE PHYSICIAN: You know, as a physician, I'm absolutely in support of wearing masks, right? Masks are part of a comprehensive epidemic management plan. It means I wear them and my family wears them. You know, as for the governor's comments, you know, I appreciate the sentiment of some of what she says about, you know, how anger and vitriol and all that sort of stuff doesn't necessarily change minds about sort of what we should be doing, but you know, masks help, but they're also not magic, right?

[07:55:00]

You can't say, well, we've got, you know, masks, therefore, we don't have to do everything else. You know, I'm wearing masks, so, like therefore, I can pack my house at Thanksgiving. They're part of an overall strategy. You need to still do social distancing, you need to decrease your social circle, hand hygiene, staying home at the first sign of illness. This isn't like a list of options you get to pick from, you have to do all of them.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: Yes, I mean, and also I think that her timeline is confusing at least to me. The mask mandates were a result of the spikes in these other states. They didn't happen before the spikes, they were a result of the spikes. So in that way, her logic I don't quite grasp it, but I appreciate what you're saying that people feel very strongly about personal responsibility and all of that stuff. But you are on the frontlines, and you're dealing with this every day. And so just explain to us as we see this tripling of hospitalizations in your state since Spring, as we see the deaths spiking since Spring, what is different in your mind since then? What's different with what you're having to deal with?

BARNES: I mean, for us everything is different. I mean, we had our first spike back in the Spring, and I remember, you know, I had COVID as part of that initial spike, and the day that my test resulted, it was like a big day because we had 100 positive cases. I mean, now, we have way more than we did before. I mean, we're breaking records all the time. It's also geographically a lot different. I mean, in the beginning, we really were very centralized in terms of, you know, most sick people could come to Sioux Falls and most of them were already in Sioux Falls because of the meat-packing plants.

Now, we see COVID, you know, throughout the state, all of those counties are having issues. You know, I also think part of it is that, you know, it's not just COVID now. The Spring in a lot of ways was really a gift for us because so many other things stayed home, we really got to focus on what does it mean to take care of COVID patients, which means this time around, like the numbers are worse, but we're better. You know, we're still making, you know, some updates in terms of the -- you know, what we do, but the medicine is a lot more solid right now. The staff and the physicians really feel like, OK, now, at least we know what this virus looks like and what we need to do.

CAMEROTA: That is a relief. Are you seeing -- we had a nurse on from the Dakotas on earlier this week. Are you seeing people come in who are very sick and don't believe it, don't want to believe that they have COVID?

BARNES: I'm not. But part of that is because of what I do, right? Like she's in the emergency room, I'm as, you know, a physician up on the floor, by the time that they come to get me, you know, at that point, they're very sick and some of them are intubated, so they're not speaking to me at all.

CAMEROTA: You felt compelled to write an open letter to your colleagues that was published on a blog, and I just want to read a portion of it for everyone. You say, "as the hospital gets busier and busier, I can feel the anxiety. People are sicker than ever with COVID, and non-COVID illness alike. Seeing the new diagnoses going up every day and knowing that portends an influx of increasing COVID cases, one to three weeks later feels like an advancing onslaught you are powerless to stop." What is your message? What did you want to impart with that?

BARNES: Well, I think my biggest message is, I really want, you know, physicians and other healthcare workers on the frontlines in South Dakota to feel like they're supported. You know, I think that there's real value in being seen and saying, look, I see what you're doing, I understand that that's your reality and I recognize it on a national scale, right? I think it's important. Sometimes -- even if you can't fix -- like I can't fix COVID by myself obviously, but even though I can't fix it, I do think that it helps people to hear like, hey, we're all in the same boat. Like you know what I'm going through, you're going through it, too.

CAMEROTA: Yes, and I know that you've said that the hardest part is the grief and just having to be there and bear witness to the grief.

BARNES: It's absolutely the hardest for me, and I know I'm not the only one. I mean, I know people don't necessarily know it, I mean, I've never gotten so many questions about what I do at work than I have over the last several months. But on a normal day, I don't have people dying every day. You know, last week, I was in the ICU, I had one day where I had three people die, two of those were COVID, one wasn't, but the amount of palpable grief you can feel from those family members, the wailing that sort of gets etched on your soul, I mean, every time someone dies, you know, it stays with us forever.

And so I worry, you know, about the family members and the friends and all these people that, you know, knew this person, but I also worry about us, you know, being witness to so much grief over long periods of time is really hard.

CAMEROTA: I can imagine how hard it is to unhear that wailing. I know that, that stays with you for a very long time. Dr. Clarissa Barnes, thank you for all you're doing. We really appreciate you and we appreciate you sharing your personal experience with us.

BARNES: Thank you for having me.

CAMEROTA: And NEW DAY continues right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Biden and his team zeroed-in on the pandemic, pressing their case for the Trump administration to coordinate with them on the crisis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:00:00]