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Trump Undercuts Democracy; Missouri Health Official Resigns After Threats; Trump Organization Investigation Expands; Mnuchin Cuts off Emergency Lending Program. Aired 9:30-10a

Aired November 20, 2020 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Silent.

With us now is Republican election lawyer Ben Ginsberg. He represented George W. Bush in 2000.

Mr. Ginsberg, always good to have you on this program.

BEN GINSBERG, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you. Good to be here.

SCIUTTO: It's probably hard for folks at home to follow this. It's certainly hard for me, too, the changing steps in the president's strategy here. So if we want to call the courts step one, he's basically failed there. The courts have broadly rejected his efforts in multiple states.

Now we're on to a next step of the president trying to delay or block certification of votes and then maybe go to state legislators -- legislatures to overturn the results of the election.

Tell us, legally, does he have a path there?

GINSBERG: I -- no is the answer. I mean you all mentioned that he doesn't have the facts and he doesn't have the law and lawyers always believe that if you don't have the facts and you don't have the law, then you pound the table. And the delay of certification is sort of the pounding of the table.

It's -- doesn't have a clear path. It's against all the traditions of the country. It is -- it reminds me, actually, of the way he was during the COVID pandemic with hydroxychloroquine, which I just pronounced wrong. It was like a miracle cure that at the end of the day everyone got excited about for a couple of weeks and then it failed. And that's kind of where he is with the certification process.

SCIUTTO: That's a good comparison.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: On top of it, and Jim always does a good job of reminding us that the ballots, it's like the whole ballot that they're trying to throw out here or not certify, which includes a lot of Republicans re-winning their seats, and that's a point, Ben, that you think shouldn't go missed here, right?

GINSBERG: No.

HARLOW: It's sort of a peripheral effect of what they're asking for here.

GINSBERG: Well, it's not even a peripheral effect, Poppy. I mean the reality is, is that if you claim widespread fraud in the presidential election --

HARLOW: Yes.

GINSBERG: That means there was widespread fraud in everything down the ballot.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GINSBERG: So those races would have to be re-won. And the same problem if they hold up the certification in the states, you don't just hold up the certification for one race, like the presidency. That means there are no certified members of any of the state legislators and those are the folks who he's looking to help with the -- block the certifications.

SCIUTTO: Mr. Ginsberg, the law, as you note, and you know better than us, is on the side of fairness in this election and the election standing. The sad fact is, we, in this country, have seen the law flouted in the last several years. And I wonder, do we necessary have confidence? I mean we have a state legislator from Michigan visiting the president today. He says he's just visiting out of respect. But, I mean, we had members of the county board of canvassers try to flip their votes, certifying results, as is required, right, in effect ignoring the law.

I mean should we have confidence that the law will be followed here?

GINSBERG: Well, I think we should have confidence. I mean, look, one of the -- one of the things that has stood up throughout this process is the basic institutions of elections. Yes, there have been some acts that should not have taken place, like the Wayne County Canvassing Board.

But then again you should look at the state of Georgia, which has Republicans in the offices responsible for running the election. Goodness knows they have come over -- come under incredible criticism, yet they're going to certify their results today. It looks like it's a pro forma case. An attempt to block the certification in the Georgia court yesterday got tossed on its head by a Trump appointed judge.

So the strategy is creating a lot of noise and a lot of -- and a lot of discomfort and trauma for us. But, at the end of the day, I think our institutions are holding. And this is going to work. And we need to look at this in a month or so. HARLOW: Finally, the words are notable from Senator Mitt Romney,

Republican, calling it undemocratic, about the most undemocratic thing possible, and Republican Senator Ben Sasse saying, we're a nation of laws, not tweets.

Talk is one thing. And, by the way, where is the talk from the other Republican colleagues of theirs?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: But what about action? Is there anything Republicans in Congress can do?

GINSBERG: There really is nothing at this stage under the laws. I mean we give the states the responsibility for carrying out elections. And so the -- what Congress can do right now is talk about the issue, but that sort of getting hung up in letting the president have his say in the state courts, which every candidate can do.

[09:35:04]

And if he fails as spectacularly as he's failed so far and appears to be continuing to fail, then that means he's run out the strings. He's not been able to prove fraud. He's not been able to prove many of the allegations that's made. And that provides a certain finality to the process if he does get his procedural rights to play out the contest and recounts.

SCIUTTO: Ben Ginsberg, always good to have your experience and your calm voice on this broadcast.

HARLOW: Thank you.

GINSBERG: Nice to see you. Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Well, as the coronavirus rages, local health officials are facing frightening harassment for trying simply to enact safety measures to save lives. Ahead, we're going to speak with one official in Missouri who says she's resigning today because the threats to her and her family have become simply too much.

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[09:40:15]

SCIUTTO: The governor of Missouri, Mike Parson, has now extended his state's emergency order through March of 2021. The Republican governor warning residents about a spike in new infections while doubling down on his opposition to a statewide mask mandate, passing the buck down to officials at the local level.

Well, this as the health department director in St. Francis County has stepped down. Why? Because of public threats and harassment in response to her calls for people to take the simple steps of social distancing and wearing masks. Amber Elliott saying, and I'm quoting, I get threatening messages from

people saying they're watching me. They followed my family to the park and took pictures of my kids. I know it's my job to be out front talking about the importance of public health, educating people, keeping them safe. Now it kind of scares me.

Well, Amber Elliott joins me now on her last day, we should note, as director of the St. Francis County Health Center in Missouri.

Amber, thanks so much for joining this morning.

AMBER ELLIOTT, QUITS JOB AS COUNTY HEALTH DIRECTOR DUE TO THREATS AND HARASSMENT: Thank you, Jim, for having me.

SCIUTTO: Listen, I hear those threats to you and your children. It's just gutting to hear you had to go through that.

ELLIOTT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: I wonder, you faced this for some time. What was the final straw?

ELLIOTT: Yes, I mean I -- we -- I've heard a lot of, you know, implied threats or harassment over the past eight months. It's more directed towards me. And I think that is a little more easy to accept. But I think when people start photographing my family in public, you know, I have to ask myself the question of, you know, is this really worth it? And, you know, I have two little kids and, you know, at this point I think, you know, their safety really is the highest importance for me. And so got to make a hard decision.

SCIUTTO: I get it.

You noted to me that you're actually the 12th health official in the state to step down.

ELLIOTT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Because this is a statewide problem, these threats. That's remarkable to hear.

ELLIOTT: Yes, and I -- um-hum, yes. And I think it's probably not just singular to Missouri. I mean I've read a lot of stories about health directors across the country who are receiving threats or harassment. And, yes, I'm the 12th one out of all of the county health departments in our state, which is about 114, 115. And so, you know, it's significant. And we're -- we're losing public health professionals because of this.

SCIUTTO: It's a sad fact that the president and many of his allies have amplified attacks, not just on measures such as wearing a mask, but also individuals and state leaders and health officials carrying out those acts or making those recommendations.

I wonder, who do you hold responsible for this climate of threats? ELLIOTT: You know, I think, you know, it does kind of come back to

individuals. I mean I think we all should be able to treat each other with respect, even when we have differences of opinions, because that's normal. That's a normal part of our world and what we do. But you can treat people with respect and professionalism and caring and kindness, you know, without becoming a really nasty and, you know, personal attacks or involving people's families when they're just trying to do their job.

SCIUTTO: Yes, listen, there's no reason, let's be clear, there's no reason you or your family should have to face this.

ELLIOTT: No. No, I --

SCIUTTO: There's another element to this of denial of the facts of a deadly pandemic. You write, I know in my heart these are good people, but it's like we're living on different planets. I have people in my own family who believe COVID is a conspiracy and our doctors are getting paid off.

That's got to be disheartening for you as a health care worker trying to help these very same people. Is there any way through to them or are these bubbles impermeable?

ELLIOTT: You know, I don't know. I have thought about this a lot about how we can fight misinformation because I feel like that's been one of our -- really our biggest hurdle in this is that, you know, every time you think, hey, this has been debunked or whatever, I mean people just -- they refuse to believe, you know, the truth at hand. And I think it's really hard to fight misinformation when, you know, people do have a distrust in, you know, government or the CDC and, you know, you -- it's hard to fight misinformation with facts when they just won't believe the facts.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

What do you want to hear from the nation's leaders? We have a president-elect who will take office January 20th, to health care workers who are still facing these kinds of threats, but also to people who are making them, right, the divisive environment that you're describing there.

[09:45:05]

What message do you think would make a difference?

ELLIOTT: You know, I think -- I think we all need to hear the realization and really hear it about what is happening across the country, especially to, you know, public health professionals and, you know, more importantly probably our front line health care workers that are exhausted on the front lines. They've been fighting this since March.

You know, and in Missouri right now we're seeing a huge spike and, you know, I think they need to hear support. I think they need to hear a solid plan for going forward. And, you know, again, knowing how exhausted they are, and they need the support of their community, and they need to know that this is real. And, you know, we have the power in the community, this is a public health problem and it is a community solution, and so we need our communities to back us.

SCIUTTO: A shared solution, right, a shared crisis, a shared solution.

ELLIOTT: Absolutely.

SCIUTTO: Well, Amber Elliott, we are sorry and I'm sure folks watching right now are sorry that you and your family have to go through this. We wish you luck. We wish you safety.

ELLIOTT: Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Poppy.

HARLOW: Wow, unbelievable she has to go through that, but good for her for speaking out.

All right, ahead, new details on the long running fraud investigations into the Trump organization and new phase of the probe.

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[09:50:52]

HARLOW: Welcome back.

Sources tell CNN that investigators right here in New York have now expanded their probe into the Trump Organization to include tax write- offs including millions of dollars in so-called consulting fees.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Kara Scannell, she's been following this.

I mean this is key, Kara, is it not, because Ivanka Trump involved, in effect, these were writing off consulting fees paid within the family as tax write-offs?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: Yes, Jim, that's right. I mean this is the first time we're seeing Ivanka Trump's name surface in the investigation. And sources tell CNN the New York authorities have widened this year's long investigation to include millions of dollars in tax write-offs that the president has taken on his returns in connected with these so-called consulting fees.

Now, there are two distinct investigations here, a criminal investigation by the Manhattan District Attorney's Office which is looking into a lot of different areas, including, you know, possible tax fraud, possible insurance fraud, possible schemes to defraud.

There's also a civil investigation by the New York attorney general. That investigation is looking into whether the president and the Trump Organization defrauded lenders or tax authorities by improperly inflating the value of certain assets.

Now, this is a new development in this investigation to look at these consulting fees. And subpoenas were sent by both agencies to the Trump Organization in recent weeks. This all came to light because of "The New York Times" investigation into the president's taxes where they revealed for the first time that the president had taken $26 million in tax write-offs from fees that were paid to these so-called consultants.

Now, according to "The Times," one of these consultants appeared to be a company controlled by Ivanka Trump. She received $747,000 from the Trump Organization at the same time that she was an employee. This is what has raised questions among investigators.

Now, a lawyer for the Trump Organization, Alan Garten, issued a statement to "The New York Times," which first reported these subpoenas last night. He said that everything was done in strict compliance with applicable law and under the advice of counsel and tax experts. He added, all applicable taxes were paid and no party received any undue benefit.

We also heard from Ivanka Trump, who rarely responds to these things. She tweeted last night saying, this is harassment pure and simple.

Now, these investigations have been underway for more than a year. The Manhattan District Attorney's Office has been in a protracted legal fight with the president over a subpoena for his tax returns. That is before the Supreme Court for a second time. We're expecting a ruling on that any day.

Jim, Poppy.

SCIUTTO: Well, we'll see where it goes in court, where the facts matter.

Kara Scannell, thanks very much.

Now to a stunning move by U.S. Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin as countless American businesses struggle to make ends meet in the ongoing pandemic.

HARLOW: That's right. So this happened overnight. Mnuchin decided to pull the plug, to end a lending program designed to help keep these businesses open. This as the Federal Reserve chairman, Jerome Powell, is issuing a rare and sharp rebuke of the move.

Let's go to our CNN business lead writer Matt Egan for more.

If you could explain in the most basic terms, Matt, just why this matters to main street.

MATT EGAN, CNN BUSINESS LEAD WRITER: Well, it matters to main street because the Federal Reserve only has so much ammo to fight the crisis. And the crisis is getting worse. We know the coronavirus infections have never been higher. We know that statewide curfews are back in certain places like California. And the economy is weakening. It might even be shrinking and so that's why it really is a weird time to take away some of the ammo that the Fed is using. As you mentioned, the Fed even put out a statement last night opposing

this move, saying that they prefer that the funds stayed in place because these programs are an important backstop to the economy. It is pretty unusual to see the Fed and the Treasury Department disagreeing publicly in the middle of a crisis, no less.

As far as why they're doing this. Treasury is correct that some of this money hasn't been used, at least not yet. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin was on CNBC this morning and he said, listen, Congress can use this money to help the economy. And, he's right, they could do that. But, listen, we know that Congress, they can't even agree on who's going to be sworn in as the next president on January 20th.

[09:55:07]

They have agreed yet on a fiscal stimulus package. So there's no guarantee that they can agree on how to use this nearly $5 (ph) billion.

HARLOW: Right. Right.

EGAN: But I do just have to read you the interesting statement that was put out by the normally Republican friendly Chamber of Commerce. They said that -- they warned that this move would prematurely and unnecessarily tie the hands of the incoming administration, closing the door on options for businesses at a time when they need it most.

Poppy and Jim, this appears to be another troubling step in what can only be described as a debacle of a transition so far.

HARLOW: Yep. Yep. And if the Fed had the money, the businesses could get it. And now -- now it's up to Congress to agree on something to get it to them.

Matt, thank you for explaining it to us.

EGAN: Thank you.

HARLOW: Well, as Matt just said, the cases are soaring. Dr. Sanjay Gupta just sat down for an exclusive one-on-one interview with Dr. Deborah Birx. You're going to hear their conversation, next.

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