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Carl Bernstein is Interviewed about Trump's Election Loss; Emergency Lending Programs Cut Off; Former Minnesota Lawmaker on his COVID-19 Experience. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired November 20, 2020 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:30:58]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, breaking news.

Moments ago, Georgia's Republican secretary of state confirming that Joe Biden won that state.

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BRAD RAFFENSPERGER (R-GA), SECRETARY OF STATE: I'm a passionate conservative. And as I've said before, I'm a proud Trump supporter. I was with him early in the 2016 election cycle and he's governed the nation by the same conservative principles that I hold dear. Like other Republicans, I'm disappointed our candidate didn't win Georgia's electoral votes. Close elections sow distrust. People feel their side was cheated. We saw this from the Democrats in 2018, and we see this from Republicans today. Working as an engineer throughout my life, I live by the motto that numbers don't lie. As secretary of state, I believe that the numbers that we have presented today are correct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK, well, despite his loss in Georgia and despite his repeated failures in court, President Trump is still not admitting defeat. So what can we expect in these next two months until Inauguration Day?

Joining us now, CNN political analyst and journalist and author Carl Bernstein.

Carl, great to see you.

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Good to be with you.

CAMEROTA: I guess let's just start there, that was interesting, hearing Secretary Raffensperger, who has been -- who has had a bullseye on him since he decided to stick with the facts and stick with the numbers and admit that Joe Biden won, President Trump has had him in his crosshairs and yet he said I am a proud Trump supporter, he just said. And, you know, I mean, that just leads us to what the Republicans, the silence of the Republicans, as all of this happens. What are your thoughts on why they're staying so silent?

BERNSTEIN: First, he just said what every Republican member of the Senate of the United States should have been saying weeks ago. He did and said what a patriot would do and what our senators, the Republicans in the U.S. Senate, by and large, almost all of them have failed to do.

Look, let's take a step back here and see what we're talking about. We are witnessing a mad king in the final days of his reign, willing to scorch the earth of his country and bring down the whole system to undermine our whole democracy, strip it of its legitimacy, poison the confidence of our people and our institutions and the Constitution for Donald Trump's own petulant, selfish, rabid ends.

We have a president of the United States, for the first time in our history, sabotaging his country. That's where we are. And will these Republicans continue to allow it for another day because every day it appears more and more that our system cannot handle, was not designed, neither our Constitution or our institutions, to handle an aberrant, mad king like Donald Trump.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, I can answer your question, will they allow it for another day, yes. Yes.

BERNSTEIN: OK.

BERMAN: They've allowed -- they've allowed it -- they've allowed it for nearly three weeks. I'm not saying they should, but they clearly are.

BERNSTEIN: That's right.

BERMAN: We've got Mitt Romney and Ben Sasse who have come out, and nobody else in the U.S. Senate, and today would be a prime time to do it with the president --

BERNSTEIN: Well --

BERMAN: Trying to have, you know, Michigan legislators come to the White House so he can convince them to overturn the results of the election.

BERNSTEIN: Let me name say 15 or so Republican senators. And what I'm doing is not violating a journalistic principle because they've told me what I'm about to say, but for two or three years I've talked to members of staffs of the senators, members of committees, staff people, aides, assistants, people who have worked for these people. Let's look at 15 of these Republican senators who really disdain and even despise Donald Trump, have said so to each other. Let's talk about Rob Portman, Lamar Alexander, Ben Sasse, Roy Blunt, Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, John Cornyn, John Thune, Mitt Romney we know, Mike Braun, Todd Young, Tim Scott, Marco Rubio, Chuck Grassley, Richard Burr, and there others.

[08:35:10] Many, if not most of these individuals, from what I have been told, were happy to see Donald Trump defeated in this election, as long as the Senate could be controlled by the Republicans. They're -- they've experienced Donald Trump and his dishonesty and his pathological lies -- lying and they know what Donald Trump has done to undermine the confidence in our institutions in this country. They've lived through the pandemic while his homicidal negligence is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans. They know what's going on.

Mr. McConnell knows what's going on. And finally, I'm told, in the last 24, 48 hours, I believe he and some others are attempting to find a way to somehow bring the country off the ledge that we are on because of the mad king and what he is doing while Rudy Giuliani, Steve Bannon and others whisper these conspiracies in his ears.

But we have a problem. Seventy percent, 80 percent of those people who call themselves Republicans now believe, because of social media, because of Donald Trump, and his disinformation and his lying, they believe it's been a rigged election and we're going to have to live with the legacy of this sabotage by the president.

CAMEROTA: Carl, it's really interesting to hear you lay out that litany of Republicans who say one thing publicly often and a different thing privately, obviously, to reporters.

And so when you say that your sense is, from your reporting, that they have some sort of plan to walk us off the ledge, well, back from the ledge, I should say, saving us, what would that look like?

BERNSTEIN: Well, first of all, it may be too little too late because the confidence in our institutions that Trump was wanted in his sabotage of the country, bringing us from a cold civil war to pouring the flames onto that cold civil war and igniting it so we're very close to a real cultural civil war and perhaps violence because of his refusal to accept the will of the people in the election, because he has attempted and failed at a coup, imagine a coup attempt by a president of the United States to undermine our electoral system that he announced before the election he was going to attempt this coup by voter suppression, by illegitimating the process, saying it was rigged against us. And then, when the votes came in against him, he followed up on the attempt at a coup.

So it might be a little late to talk us off the ledge in this country by some of these senators. And I'm not at all sure it will succeed and what might it look like. It might look like a few, and I don't know this yet because I'm still trying to report exactly what's going on, there has been resistance as we know in the intelligence community, in the defense community, to some of what Donald Trump has been trying to do or perhaps talking to the president that he cannot invade, use troops, attack Iran in some ways. People are fighting back within our institutions, but it's not clear at all that these senators will succeed because can the system actually handle a Donald Trump?

CAMEROTA: Yes. BERMAN: Carl Bernstein, I have to say, if there's anyone who's an

expert on the final days, it's you, literally wrote the book "The Final Days" on the Nixon presidency and I know you're even more concerned now than you were then.

BERNSTEIN: Much, much more concerned.

BERMAN: Thank you.

BERNSTEIN: Nixon left. Republicans convinced him he had to go, and he did.

CAMEROTA: Thank you, Carl. Great to talk to you, as always.

Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin pulling the plug on a new round of emergency stimulus money for small and mid-sized businesses. He wants the funds used for other purposes.

Christine Romans is going to explain this to us, next.

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[08:42:34]

BERMAN: All right, this is a big deal. Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin pulling the plug on funding for several emergency Federal Reserve programs as coronavirus cases rise and millions of Americans struggle.

CNN chief business correspondent, star of "EARLY START," Christine Romans joins us now.

And, Romans, Alisyn and I have been talking about this. We both know this is a really big deal that affects millions of people, but we need you to explain to us in English exactly what's happening.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, this was a really important backstop for confidence that the Fed, the Treasury would be there if something terrible were to happen in the markets because of what was happening with the coronavirus. And so this was an important confidence builder. Not all of this money was deployed, not all of it was used, but it was widely seen as an incredibly important tool in the toolbox for fighting the coronavirus economic backed problems.

And then there on the same day, when 2,015 people died of the coronavirus, the Treasury secretary tells the Fed he wants the unused money back. And the Fed, in a very rare, public rebuke, said, we don't think this is a good idea. We don't think this is a good time.

I want to read you part of the Fed statement because this is -- this is a rift coming into public view here. The Fed going out of its way to point out that this is still a strained and fragile economy. We prefer that the full suite of emergency facilities established during the pandemic continue to serve their important roles as a backstop for our still strained and vulnerable economy. And then you saw the Chamber of Commerce and many other business

groups, frankly, business leaders, come out and say they, too, don't think this is a good idea. In fact, the Chamber of Commerce said it feels like this is trying to tie the hands of the incoming Biden administration, that this is more of a political move than an economic move.

We're going to hear from the Treasury secretary later this morning. But a lot of hand-wringing this morning about why the timing now with a worsening crisis, why don't you keep that tool in the toolbox?

BERMAN: Look, the Fed doesn't do this. Statements from the Fed like that don't happen.

ROMANS: Exactly.

BERMAN: And the timing of it obviously begs the question, is this just trying to sabotage the Biden administration, making this money not available to them, because that's all Steve Mnuchin just did there.

Where are we on the relief bill, stimulus package? Because a lot of this money's set to expire also within months.

ROMANS: Yes. I mean the timing here is really critically important. They're not talking about a new stimulus, no new stimulus checks going out to people.

On the day after Christmas, about 12 million Americans will lose their unemployment benefits. Two of those pandemic programs are expiring. That's 12 million people on the day after Christmas.

[08:45:00]

That is something.

Student loan payments will be due again startling at the beginning of the year. There are moratoriums for rent, by the way, that also will be expiring. Evictions will be expiring. So there's a bunch of things that have been put in the works to make things a little more bearable on the economy side while we battle the public health crisis. Those are all going away one by one.

BERMAN: Christine Romans, thank you so much for explaining all this. It really is important.

ROMANS: It is.

BERMAN: This will affect a lot of people.

Appreciate it.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, John, let's talk about CNN Heroes. This year's "CNN Heroes: All-Star Tribute" will be a little different. It's a special celebration of the heroic efforts of the many women, men, and children around the globe who, when faced with the simultaneous crisis of coronavirus and racial injustice, stood up to help others. It's been a challenging year, but there have been moments of resilience and hope and joy and inspiration.

And so we want to share some of those with you. And you tell us which ones inspire you the most.

So here is one of this year's most inspiring moments.

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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Her name is Gianna Floyd. She's six years old and experienced a tragedy that shattered her world and woke up ours. For nearly eight minutes, handcuffed on the ground and with a knee on his neck, her father, George Floyd, pleaded for his life. His death on May 25th by a white police officer in Minnesota sparked worldwide protests against police brutality and systemic racism.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm here for my baby and I'm here for George, because I want justice for him.

COOPER: After Gianna and her mother spoke at an emotional press conference, long-time family friend and former NBA player Stephen Jackson comforted Gianna. He did what her father would have done, told her how proud he was of her and hoisted her onto his shoulders where she shared a hope for us all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Daddy changed the world.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Daddy changed the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: An incredible moment of inspiration that helped define this year.

So go to cnnheroes.com right now to vote for this moment or any of our most inspiring moments. And once you vote, you can also upload your own videos telling us why these moments moved you. You just might see yourself on "CNN Heroes: An All-star Tribute." It's Sunday, December 13th, at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.

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[08:50:45]

BERMAN: So a former Republican state representative from Minnesota was critical of coronavirus lockdowns, didn't worry about the dangers of the virus or at least as the summer wore on became a bit more lax in how he behaved. That was until he got it. Now he's speaking out and urging people to take the pandemic seriously. This as hospitalizations in Minnesota hit all-time highs again.

Former State Rep. Nick Zerwas joins me now.

Thank you so much for being with us. We're glad you're feeling better. Just so people understand, you've got a bunch of pre-existing conditions.

NICK ZERWAS (R-MN), FORMER STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Yes.

BERMAN: You have a congenital heart issue. You've had multiple heart surgeries. You were in a high risk group. You said you took the virus seriously last spring but then what happened?

ZERWAS: Yes, I think, like a lot of people, especially with severe pre-existing conditions, like myself, I was born with a heart defect. I've had ten open heart surgeries. My wife and I and my family locked down for several months, very, very hard. When the -- when the model projections never came to pass and the weather warmed up, we loosened up, I think, like a lot of Minnesotans and a lot of Americans. We went back to our lives. And it wasn't really until this fall when kind of the -- I would say the virus arrived in Minnesota that we were caught maybe a little bit less prepared than we should have been as far as following recommendations. I mean we went out to dinner but we masked in. We masked out. We kept our parties, our dinner parties small and followed all the guidelines. But that -- that wasn't enough to prevent getting the virus.

BERMAN: And you got it bad. How bad?

ZERWAS: Well, that's the challenge is, is once I -- my little guy got a cold, tested negative for the virus. I got a cough the next few days, I assumed it was his cold, because kids get colds, and I wasn't overly concerned, and then in a matter of about 24 hours, it got to the point where I couldn't breathe laying flat or laying down. I had just had a terrible night of sleep. My wife bought earlier in the summer had bought us a pulse oximeter fingertip unit to measure the blood oxygen levels and I came downstairs after getting up that morning and I could -- I had to lean on the counter to be able to stand and I put that meter on and it was registering in the mid 80s.

BERMAN: Wow.

ZERWAS: And so I knew I needed to go and I knew I was in big trouble.

BERMAN: Listen, I think the important thing now is the lesson you've learned about how we talk about coronavirus and approach it politically. You -- you know, you're a proud Republican. You note that you've battled the current governor on like any range of issues. You fought him on any range of subjects, but you said COVID is different. There's no debate. What do you mean?

ZERWAS: Well, I think -- I think we have to come together and understand that the virus doesn't care. If you are a red jersey or a blue jersey, the virus doesn't care. It doesn't discriminate. I vehemently disagree with Governor Walz on a whole host of tax policies, spending policies, health care policies. But the reality is, is that this virus is in Minnesota. Three weeks ago I didn't know a single person in Sherburne County that had the virus. Today I can name 50. The virus is here, and we have to be careful.

When I was at the hospital, I waited for four hours as they debated if they were going to have to transfer me to find an open ICU bed. Our hospitals are pushed to the brink and they're overwhelmed. It's time we link arm and arm and fight the virus.

I'm not pushing for big government mandates and lockdowns. I'm pushing for a surge in personal responsibility.

[08:55:02]

People have to own this and take care of their family.

BERMAN: Nick Zerwas, I'm so glad you're feeling better. Thank you for joining us this morning. Thanks for spreading that message. Mask up, people. Be safe.

ZERWAS: Absolutely.

BERMAN: Stay with your immediate family at Thanksgiving. Don't travel. Be smart. Listen to Nick. He's lived through this. Thanks for being with us this morning.

All right, a lot going on. Coronavirus deaths pass 2,000 and the president trying to overturn the results of the election.

CNN's coverage continues right after this.

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