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Cuomo Prime Time
GSA Tells Joe Biden That Transition Can Formally Begin; Giuliani Admits He's "Exaggerating A Bit" On Fraud Claims; Millions Of Americans Traveling For Thanksgiving Despite CDC Warnings. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 23, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR, NEW DAY: A reminder, don't miss Full Circle, Anderson's digital news show. You can catch it streaming at 6 P.M. Eastern at CNN.com/FullCircle, or watch it there, and on the CNN app at any time on-demand.
The news continues. So, we'll hand it over to Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME."
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: All right, thank you, John.
I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
We all have reason to be thankful tonight. The Biden administration can finally start the job. The GSA lifted its revenge block that it had, on behalf of Trump. This is a victory for democracy. But the lesson is in how we got here. Even this move is proof of what we must stomp out in our politics.
The GSA Head writes, "I have always strived to do what is right. Please know that I came to my decision independently, based on the law and available facts. I was never directly or indirectly pressured by any Executive Branch official, including those who work at the White House or GSA, with regard to the substance or timing of my decision."
Carefully worded, and with good reason, you know why? She was just doing her job? She was refusing to do her job, and on what basis? There was no legitimate basis. There were no facts she could draw on to question the results or the apparent winner.
So what did she base it on? She was never pressured? Then how about this tweet that followed right after her transition? Trump tweeted, "I told her to do this." I'm not going to read it. It's no need to anymore. Lie, defy, deny. That is why he lost.
Now get this, he's worried that this tan-Trump that has kept us from dealing with a pandemic in our duly-elected President-Elect, it may hurt his brand. Know this. This is your brand, Mr. Trump. You will forever be remembered as viciously divisive and a demagogue, a man who lied about a pandemic to suit his own interests. Period! Amen!
And here is another nail in that coffin. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, TRUMP CAMPAIGN LAWYER: The City of Detroit probably had more voters than it had citizens. Well I'm exaggerating a bit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: You think? He literally had BS coming out of his ears, the later - the other day, literally.
But, look, the Cast of Fools is not just - it's the lawyers. Come on! It's about the man who lost and, and, all those who sat idle. Not a single GOPer has called out Trump's savaging of our democracy. Know that.
Now, the election is released from the grip of this gripe that Trumpers hold. Now we can get to the real fight, for relief for all of those suffering, and literally going hungry, in the richest country in the world. Maybe some plans, resources, in fighting the pandemic, and figuring out our panic approach to school.
Look, a president who cares about the problems will admit them, and give you the truth about them is already a positive step. Our job here is to hold this Administration to doing exactly that, and we will.
But it is also the job not to be so focused on the desperate need to move forward that we forget how we got here.
If we don't expose, and hold those who allowed this travesty to happen, if we don't hold them to account, they will just keep doing what Trump demands. Not with chuckles, that's not going to be me. "Oh, come on, Senator. Isn't that too cute by half, Congressman?" No.
What happened here was ugly and intentional. And the response must be served directly and cold.
All those who stood silent, and pretended this was just about style, or things that they wouldn't say but he can, and that there were legitimate issues to litigate, they knew better. They never offered you a piece of proof and they never asked for any either.
16 days were stolen. How many of you paid the price of this inaction, of this cowardice, of this economic pain that they did nothing about? And now, they say, "Oh, the kind of scrutiny Cuomo is talking about, it makes us victims!" Once and for all, shut up. Remember what your job is. Do it or get out.
And you must remember who failed to do their jobs but just importantly why, a reminder of our politics at its worst. Demand better from those in power, yes, every day. And those who may do nothing but oppose, even in a pandemic.
[21:05:00]
Also, remember what worked best for us here, OK? It was not our politicians. Law and order! Not Trump's perverse laying down the law that keeps his lackeys in order, no not that. Real justice made his claims the mockery that cowards in Congress hid from at every turn. Never forget when we argue that the courts matter. They literally saved this transition.
One thing, though, that I believe doesn't deserve a word more, and I don't get why my brothers and sisters in the media keep playing to this. Who cares if Trump concedes?
It's not in the law. It's a tradition that gives a nod to decency and disagreement. He's never been about that. He's never been about anything but his own selfish interests. And you know it.
Why give him another chance to lie about the election, or anything else, or everything else? He isn't going to tell his followers to do anything, but give him more money, for a lost cause, and use it maybe even on something else. Less is more from Trump, and I hope you all know that.
Now tonight, we start. We have a much clearer picture of the direction our country is going to take in the next 58 days, assuming Trump doesn't do anything to screw it up further.
We know our President-Elect's incoming administration is speedily taking formation. He's announcing new and historic cabinet picks, on some levels, as well as appointments to other top tier positions.
So, let's figure out all that has us at this moment. This is an historic night. Let's bring in Kaitlan Collins, and Joe Lockhart.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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CUOMO: Kaitlan, first to you, and thank you.
And before we even begin, if I don't get to see you guys this week, I'm thankful for you both.
Kaitlan, you are a star. And, Joe, you keep us following the right star when it talks to the Democrats about what they're supposed to be. And that will be ever more valuable even now. So, thank you both. I'm thankful for having you in my life, and on my show. Appreciate you.
Kaitlan, what I am hearing that "Trump was getting worried about his brand, and that maybe it was time to do something different." What are you hearing about how we got here?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think that's certainly the concern with people around the President, and that's why you saw them going to the President, urging him to move forward with this ascertainment, with this formal transition to let it happen.
Because you were starting to see a crack in GOP support here. And we saw, and you know, it's not big steps from Republican lawmakers. It's small steps. You started to see more and more people come forward saying that this is something that needed to happen.
So, of course the way the President framed it in his tweet, shortly after this letter was sent, to the Biden Campaign, by the - or to the Biden Team, by GSA, saying this is actually going to happen, the President makes it sound like he is allowing it to happen, like he is authorizing it.
But if you actually read the text of the letter, you see the GSA Administrator is saying "I made this decision independently, free from pressure from the Executive Branch," she claims. And so, that's the question going forward, is does the President - what was the President's level of involvement here?
And I think the important thing to remember is that just because the President signed off on this does not mean that he's going to stop pushing misinformation about this election, stop with the lawsuits, or anything like that.
CUOMO: Or do something else to hinder the transition at a different point. Good! I have a question for you. But hold on one second, let's bring in Joe.
Joe, how do you play as Democrats? I want to talk to you about how the President-Elect is populating his team and what it says about which way he wants to go.
But what is the right play with all of the trumpery and the people in Congress who said nothing about what he was doing here when they knew there was no basis for it? What is the right play for Biden?
JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well I think Joe Biden has played it perfectly up till now, which is he hasn't taken the bait. He hasn't engaged Trump and sunk to Trump's level.
I think now he's doing what he should be doing, which is focusing on the future, and making President Trump irrelevant. And you know, and that's what happens with lame-duck presidents.
The announcements of the appointments today, probably the most significant way you can underline the fact that you are taking over government, and really kind of tuning out the noise that Trump has thrived on, and returning government to things like competence and American values.
CUOMO: Kaitlan, what is the word about what they expect from Republicans in the House and Senate going forward?
COLLINS: I think they still know that their political faith could be tied to Donald Trump.
And that's why they have been navigating this so carefully, trying not to, of course, ruin their reputations by refusing to recognize a legitimate president but also not to anger Donald Trump, who is still going to have a lot of sway in the Republican Party. And one thing you have to look at is that while that he has been fighting this, and pursuing all of these - this litigation in court, is the President is also fund-raising. And that fund-raising, they say, is going towards these election defense funds.
[21:10:00]
But it's also going towards the new - the President's new Political Action Committee, which is going to help him have influence over the Republican Party going forward. So, you can't ignore that.
And Republicans certainly are not, and that's why they have been trying to straddle this line here of what exactly it is they're going to do because they know Donald Trump is going to loom large over the GOP for years to come.
And so, the question is how do they gently get him to move to this spot here, while also not angering him to where there is a chance that he could affect their political future?
CUOMO: Any word about Trump reaching out to President-Elect Biden?
COLLINS: No word yet. And the last thing that we heard was the President was saying he is not going to concede this race ever. That was his latest thinking from what we heard from sources.
And so, while he may be edging closer to actually moving on with the logistical next steps, the idea that he's going to come out, and acknowledge that he lost this election, in a free and fair way, just does not seem realistic to the people who speak with him on a regular basis.
CUOMO: Joe, let's look at the team. Do we have a graphic of the choices that have been made yet or should I just go through them? No? I didn't even hear what they said.
So, Joe, let's talk about some of the names that have been offered up and what they mean to you. Secretary of State, we don't know yet. But give us some of the different ones.
LOCKHART: Well, listen, I think it says a couple of things, if you look at the whole package. First, it is historic for women, women taking over jobs that the women have never held. They have been male- dominated.
At Treasury with Janet Yellen, who's a brilliant economist. The Intelligence agencies or the ODNI, and Secretary of Defense, these are all positions that have been dominated by men. And it really, you know, it's shattering parts of the glass ceiling, as we look at it.
The second thing with, you know, with all of those that I have mentioned, and people like Tony Blinken and Ron Klain, at the White House, this is Biden's team. These are - these are no nonsense people, who are not out with their own political agendas. This won't be a team of rivals. This will be a team that Joe Biden knows and trusts and will hit the ground running. The last thing I'd say about Tony Blinken, the Secretary of State - the new Secretary of State, is he is trusted around the world. And that, I think, as Joe Biden said, what's our biggest problem? What's his first priority?
CUOMO: Right.
LOCKHART: Restoring trust in America with our allies.
CUOMO: Right. I say "We don't know yet," because obviously there has to be confirmation process.
Kaitlan, what's the word on the early rounds of population by Biden?
COLLINS: I think so far the question is, you know, they are so different than the people that the President picked. A lot of people that he picked, at the beginning, were people that he said that he later came to regret, that he felt pressured to pick by people, who were advising him, when he was new to Washington.
And I think that's kind of the opposite of what you are seeing happen here with Biden. These are people that of course he's known. He is someone who knows Washington incredibly well. The President's people use that as a criticism of him saying that he's a creature of Washington.
CUOMO: Yes.
COLLINS: But this is a situation where it could help Joe Biden because actually he has experience here. He knows these people. They're people that he's familiar with.
CUOMO: Right.
COLLINS: The President picked a lot of people that he met and, sometimes, he had spoken with them for half an hour, in Trump Tower, during that transition period, and they got the job. And they said later they were surprised by that.
CUOMO: Right.
COLLINS: And so, I think it's a much different transition process that you're seeing, and it's what's important to know that it will be a different period going into this than it was at the beginning of Donald Trump's presidency.
CUOMO: Well if Biden can't pick better people than Trump did, he should quit today. Trump couldn't even get the positions filled.
Now, Joe Lockhart, welcome to the new normal of a Biden and Harris Administration, and questions that will be coming to you on this show.
This is not a group that is designed to work well with Republicans. Joe Biden said "I want to bring in people where I can have voices that will be responded to on the other side." That means Republicans. This is not voices outside the box. And this is not voices that Republicans want to hear.
Is that the right first step?
LOCKHART: Well, I agree with it, you know, there is probably no voice from the Democratic Party that Republicans currently want to hear. But, I think, if you look at some of the picks, you may be surprised on their reputation and their ability to reach across the aisle.
I mean, Tony Blinken was the Staff Director of the Senator Foreign Relations Committee which ran in a bipartisan way.
Janet Yellen is respected by the investor community, Republicans, and Democrats. She was Chairman of the Federal Reserve, the Council of Economic - at the White House under Bill Clinton.
So, there are picks here that Michele Flournoy, who is respected among Republicans, it's going to be up to Republicans, though. These are--
CUOMO: But do you think he'll pick any Republicans?
LOCKHART: --these are not one's design to--
CUOMO: Or do you think he'll go to a, you know, and--
LOCKHART: You know?
CUOMO: --Bernie is not for the Republicans, but to Andrew Yang, to go to somebody who is outside the box, and that may be able to resonate with Republicans or Republicans by Party.
[21:15:00]
LOCKHART: Yes. Listen, I don't know definitively the answer. But I think what we've learned from the early picks is Biden is going to go with people he knows, and Biden knows a lot of Republicans.
CUOMO: Right. And, look, I know that Joe Biden, the President-Elect, would say "Hey, don't sell me short, man. I know how to work." I get it. I get it. I'm just saying that in populating the team, if there are no Republicans among it, if there is nobody who they trust, it's just going to be a consideration for sure.
Kaitlan Collins, thank you very much. Joe Lockhart, it is good to have your acumen. Brother, best to both of you and your families, if I don't speak to you for a good Thanksgiving. It's going to be a weird one. But be thankful. I'm thankful for you.
All right, even with Trump allowing a transition, he's still pretending he can reverse history. And here's my problem. Who is speaking out to say "It's wrong?" Not that his lawyers stink. Not that Sidney Powell is-isn't, is-isn't part of the team. Why aren't they saying the right thing?
I have a former Trump White House lawyer here. What does he make of the state of play, and what it means for his Party that he loves? Next. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: The GSA is allowing the formal transition process to move forward. It's not some magic wand. The country's next president not only has to play catch-up but he has to do it during a pandemic when we don't have time to spare. Look what's happening to our holidays.
Trying to get 70-plus-million Americans, who voted for Trump, to buy into something different is not going to be easy, especially when Republicans have done nothing but played to fealty, fealty, service to Trump, not loyalty to country. This isn't patriotism.
Now, where do we go from here? And how do the Republicans reconcile what got us here?
Let's discuss with a very, very interesting guest, always, but certainly tonight, Jim Schultz. Jim Schultz served in the White House Counsel Office under Don McGahn, worked on the Trump Campaign, in Pennsylvania, knows the players very well.
First, I'd like to stay in character but I can't. You know I wish you and the family the best for Thanksgiving. I wish the family well. Thank you for being here tonight.
The obvious question what are you--
JIM SCHULTZ, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER, CNN LEGAL COMMENTATOR: Happy to be on.
CUOMO: --what are you doing here? What? Do you want to lose your membership card? You want them to come after you? You can't be on TV unless you're crazy enough to come on here--
SCHULTZ: Chris, I'm always happy to be on your show.
CUOMO: --and tell me I got it wrong. So, what brings you here?
SCHULTZ: I'm always happy to be on your show.
CUOMO: Your side is not coming here.
SCHULTZ: I'm happy to be on this show tonight. CUOMO: Why are you here? Why are you happy to be?
SCHULTZ: Because you asked me on, Chris, and I always give you the straight shot.
CUOMO: But what about what it means to your Party?
SCHULTZ: Look, I think what we have seen play out over the last - I mean there was a lot of patience given to watch - to allow this legal process to play out, both by the Republican side and, quite frankly, by the Democratic side.
And it's played out in a way that's been an absolute train wreck. And it's been a train wreck because, you've said earlier, it's not just because of bad lawyering, and there has been some bad lawyering. It's also because you have bad facts.
And when you don't have the facts, you argue the law. When you don't argue - you don't have the law, you pound your fist, and there has been a lot of fist-pounding by Rudy Giuliani and that team and the fist-pounding has to stop.
I mean we saw a case the other day, before Judge Matthew Brann, here in Pennsylvania. And Judge Brann, I thought was, was generous in his - in his decision. I think that there were some theories put before him. There was no evidence put before him, and some theories there.
I mean when you have issues regarding distance and poll watchers not being close enough to be able to view, that's something that should happen at the time, not a week before Thanksgiving. You don't go to court the week before Thanksgiving with that issue. You go to court at the time with that issue.
And that's the problem here - that's been the problem here all along, is that - is that the timing, the arguments, the facts, they just don't allow for, quite frankly, a winning strategy here. And so, I think the country has been patient.
CUOMO: Well it's because - it's because he didn't have them, Jimmy.
SCHULTZ: The country has been patient with it.
CUOMO: But the country hasn't been patient.
SCHULTZ: Right. I agree with you. There are no facts here.
CUOMO: The country has been confused and scared, anxious. The Democrats, have they been patient with it? Yes. But they didn't have any power, so they didn't have any real chance but to be patient.
The Republicans have the power. And I have never seen anything like this, Jimmy. These men and women wouldn't call him President-Elect, said that there were real issues. When they were asked for proof, privately and publically, they'd say "I don't have it." And yet they sustain--
SCHULTZ: Well there is - there hasn't been any proof shown.
CUOMO: I know but--
SCHULTZ: And I think the time to put up and shut up - the put up or shut up was about a week or so ago.
CUOMO: 16 days ago.
SCHULTZ: And there's been nothing put up.
CUOMO: 16 days ago.
SCHULTZ: There's been nothing put up. And in the wake of the election--
CUOMO: He won Michigan.
SCHULTZ: --wake of an election, they make some allegations, and they have to back up those allegations in court.
CUOMO: Jimmy, when we went through this in 2016--
SCHULTZ: And they weren't able to back up those allegations in court.
CUOMO: I appreciate you saying this. And I know it's not easy for you to say. Not personally but.
SCHULTZ: No, it's easy for me to say.
CUOMO: I know. But from a partisan perspective you're going to--
SCHULTZ: That just isn't hard for me to say.
CUOMO: --you're going to get some heat. But frankly, I think it's good heat to get, because I got to tell you, Jimmy, people are going to be remembered for what they did and didn't do here. And we've never seen anything like this. They said, "Oh, well, you know, there are issues."
Big-time Republicans in highly-elected office, McConnell, "It always goes this way." It has never gone this way, and they know it. Why should America believe that these people who really aren't Republicans anymore, they're Trumpers?
And what will this mean going forward for Biden? How can we expect anything but opposition, more lying, more defying norms and more denying the reality to serve the man they think may come back?
[21:25:00]
SCHULTZ: Well that's - that's the difference between our thought on this, Chris. I think the legislature, I mean in Congress, again, has been patient with the President, has been patient with the legal team.
They said they had facts. They didn't have the facts. The legal team hasn't presented any facts to date that can win anything. In fact, they've just gone into Appellate Court, just recently, in Pennsylvania to try to argue that--
CUOMO: 3rd Circuit, and got kicked out.
SCHULTZ: 3rd Circuit. No, they've gone into the 3rd Circuit again, and it's not even properly before the 3rd Circuit at this point in time.
So, I mean, this was something that was meant for the District Court. They are going and saying, "Look, we don't - we recognize" the Trump Campaign has said that they recognize that the - that the certification is going to likely happen.
CUOMO: Right.
SCHULTZ: "But we would like to enjoin the certification" right?
CUOMO: Right.
SCHULTZ: Or file for relief to object to the certification - to the effect of the certification. I don't even know what that means from a legal perspective.
CUOMO: It doesn't mean anything.
SCHULTZ: It doesn't make any sense to me.
CUOMO: And also remember--
SCHULTZ: It's not going to make any sense to a judge.
CUOMO: --they got kicked out of the 3rd Circuit earlier today.
SCHULTZ: And I think that - I think this legal team - I think this legal team is coming dangerously close in some of these instances to ending up with sanctions. I think if it weren't Rudy Giuliani there, I think they would have had sanctions normally.
CUOMO: Yes. But here's the thing. The team, they're just functionaries.
Look what they did with Sidney Powell? They let Sidney Powell, the woman who was working with Rudy Giuliani, you saw at the press conference, she says the most obnoxious baseless things. They then say, "Well, she's not part of the team."
SCHULTZ: Agree.
CUOMO: "She's freelancing." They never say that what she was saying was baseless or obnoxious. It's an obvious play from Dirty Politics 101.
SCHULTZ: I mean Hugo Chavez, really? That's what we're going to talk about?
CUOMO: Yes, that's right.
SCHULTZ: I mean that was the most ridiculous statement. CUOMO: Dead.
SCHULTZ: That we were in the realm of ridiculousness there.
CUOMO: But why--
SCHULTZ: No doubt about that.
CUOMO: --why aren't you hearing Members of Congress? It can't be patience, Jim.
SCHULTZ: I think you are going to - you are going to start - I think now that we have seen the President, and we can talk a little more about this, but now that we've seen the President and, by extension, through GSA, to release the funds, and begin that process of a transition, I think you are going to see Republicans start to move towards the center here, in terms of, you know, in terms of the transitioning, calling for a full transition, and calling for some of these--
CUOMO: But what good is it now?
SCHULTZ: --lawsuits that are frivolous in most instances to stop.
CUOMO: They won't stand up.
SCHULTZ: Because--
CUOMO: They showed who they are.
SCHULTZ: But I think also the President's legal team needs to speak truth to power to a certain extent, and say look, these--
CUOMO: They work for him.
SCHULTZ: --and be realistic about what these cases are and they own it.
CUOMO: Lawyers don't speak truth to power--
SCHULTZ: That doesn't matter. They're still--
CUOMO: --to the client.
SCHULTZ: They are still his lawyers. Any good lawyer does.
CUOMO: Listen, he's still paying them or not, who knows? But look, I know you care about your Party. I know you are a member of the Party, going forward.
And I got to tell you, I don't care how the audience feels about it. There is a reason you haven't seen anybody doing what Jimmy Schultz is doing tonight. He's a Republican. He's not quitting. He's not going anywhere. Worked on the Campaign. But you see how things are.
SCHULTZ: Look, I feel really about our Party. I have to tell you. CUOMO: How?
SCHULTZ: I have to tell you, Chris, I feel good about our Party. We had a lot of wins down-ballot.
CUOMO: Yes.
SCHULTZ: In a State like Pennsylvania, right, we won Roll Officers, a State Treasurer--
CUOMO: Yes.
SCHULTZ: --and a State Auditor General that I don't think we've won since I was in my teens here in Pennsylvania. And we--
CUOMO: You got almost 60 percent of the state houses across the country.
SCHULTZ: Of course.
CUOMO: Yes.
SCHULTZ: Attorneys general.
CUOMO: Yes.
SCHULTZ: Governors. We're winning across the country.
CUOMO: Yes.
SCHULTZ: And why is that? Because the Trump policies and the Republican policies are something that people can support.
CUOMO: They're not his policies.
SCHULTZ: And, in this case, the President didn't win an election.
CUOMO: Any Republican would have given them the policies.
SCHULTZ: They're not his policies. They're Republican policies.
CUOMO: I know.
SCHULTZ: They're Republican - look, you can't deny the fact that the--
CUOMO: But it's how he did it.
SCHULTZ: --guy picked up 70 million votes, right? And he picked up a blue-color electorate, in a place like Western Pennsylvania, where you had blue-collar voters, hard-working folks that came out in droves for him.
CUOMO: Because they're desperate.
SCHULTZ: You can't deny it. Those folks were Democrats six years ago.
CUOMO: Because they - I know. But they--
SCHULTZ: They were Democrats.
CUOMO: Listen, no - no question.
SCHULTZ: And they were voting Democrat at the top of the ticket.
CUOMO: I'm talking about something else. People are desperate. They're starving in a way we haven't seen since the Great Depression. The guy ignored a pandemic.
And what I don't understand is how you guys think that you get to a better place as a Party. The desperation's still there. But how can they trust these men and women in Congress where they just watched lie or sit silent when they knew that this country is being lied to.
SCHULTZ: Because I don't think America's--
CUOMO: About a pandemic.
SCHULTZ: --America's not ready - America's not ready for AOC-style politics. America wants divided government.
America wants to see Republicans holding the liberal Democrats accountable. They want to look - they want to wait and see - they want an insurance policy against the liberal policies that are going to come out of a Biden-Harris administration.
And I think that's what - that's why you have seen what you have seen, and that's why I have hope for our Party because you are going to have the Republicans holding Democrats accountable, you know, depending upon what happens in Georgia in the Senate, and we've seen a lot of gains in the House.
Now the Republicans in the House really matter. Before, they didn't matter as much. Now they do because of the wins they had.
CUOMO: But I'll tell you what?
SCHULTZ: So, I think divided government is a good thing.
CUOMO: I'm fine with you on divided government.
SCHULTZ: And I think the American people are anxious to see that.
[21:30:00]
CUOMO: I'm fine with you on it except for one thing. Culturally, we're screwed, because the culture of opposition dominates now. It doesn't matter who the out-party is. All they try to do is keep the other side from doing anything. But that's a much bigger conversation. It's not about Republicans or Democrats.
SCHULTZ: But that's happened on the Democratic side too like it was--
CUOMO: Absolutely. Absolutely. SCHULTZ: --"No, no, no" to the Republican agenda.
CUOMO: Absolutely.
SCHULTZ: I mean that's something that's going on--
CUOMO: Absolutely.
SCHULTZ: Look, I'm for that. I'm for - I'm for--
CUOMO: I'm saying that we need more of the two parties is what I'm saying.
SCHULTZ: --little some give and takes.
CUOMO: But all I'm saying is this. You guys are in a hole not because you lost. You did well down-ballot. This country sent a very interesting and mixed message that we'll see how lawmakers pick it up.
SCHULTZ: This Party won across the board, Chris.
CUOMO: They won - yes, except the seat at--
SCHULTZ: Across the board.
CUOMO: --except the seat at the top.
SCHULTZ: And I think that they will not be judged on these last two weeks.
CUOMO: Oh, yes, they will.
SCHULTZ: They're going to be judged on the next four - the next two years.
CUOMO: Listen.
SCHULTZ: Because we're going to have a midterm election in two years. And that's when the American people - that's when--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: The American people will. But the--
SCHULTZ: Have they held - have they held up to the Republican values and Republican policies that these folks were elected and sent to office to uphold.
CUOMO: Well I don't believe that--
SCHULTZ: And have they done that, and held the Biden administration accountable?
CUOMO: I don't believe that they got sent--
SCHULTZ: I do not think you are going to see two years from now-- CUOMO: I know.
SCHULTZ: --a blood-letting because of 14 days this year.
CUOMO: No. I'm not just saying that. We'll see what happens. There is a long time between now and then. But you want to talk about Republican values--
SCHULTZ: Yes.
CUOMO: --you better start at character counts. And they just showed a failure in character. Nobody, Jimmy, who's in elected office, has said anything that you said on this show tonight about the President doing the wrong thing. And frankly, you are still talking about the legal team.
SCHULTZ: Look, we saw - we saw leaders in this Party this weekend.
CUOMO: Nobody's said--
SCHULTZ: I mean Chris Christie stood up this week and said the right things.
CUOMO: Nobody's said Trump did the wrong thing. They say the legal team has got to stop, the issues - you know this was about Trump and that Trump did the wrong thing. Yes or no?
SCHULTZ: Look, this - this campaign--
CUOMO: Yes or no?
SCHULTZ: --this Trump Campaign, this Campaign, and Donald Trump is the President of the United States, he was the man on the ballot, he has a legal team. That legal team went into court and they lost.
CUOMO: He wanted them to push baseless claims. He's still saying--
SCHULTZ: And they lost because they were bringing bad cases and he had bad facts.
CUOMO: --things happened that we both know--
SCHULTZ: They're bad facts.
CUOMO: --he knows didn't. Did he do the wrong thing pushing baseless claims, yes or no?
SCHULTZ: There was - there were baseless claims, and they shouldn't have been brought. That's right.
CUOMO: By Trump?
SCHULTZ: And I think they became dangerously close. Look, his Campaign is the one--
CUOMO: By Trump? SCHULTZ: --his Campaign team, are the one - are the folks that were bringing those claims.
CUOMO: He did it.
SCHULTZ: I have to say though he is not being well-served by his legal team.
CUOMO: All right.
SCHULTZ: And they need to speak to him, speak truth to power, and tell him that these cases are losers. Period!
CUOMO: They have to tell him that he is lying because that's what it's been.
But Jimmy, you did something I haven't heard anybody else do. And I appreciate it. You were welcome before. You're welcome after. I hope we get to a better place with our politicians because this has been the worst.
We'll be right back.
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CUOMO: OK, despite all of the CDC's warnings about holiday travel, this past weekend alone saw more than 3 million of us passing through airport security checkpoints, the highest since this pandemic began, even as COVID cases, hospitalizations and deaths have hit all-new highs this month. In fact, the seven-day average for new COVID infections is now 170,000 a day.
I'm speaking slowly so you can watch it there on the screen.
What's going to happen because of the traveling that's going on now and how will this kind of snowball into the rest of the holidays? Dr. Leana Wen is here to discuss.
Doc, thanks for being with me.
DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST, FORMER BALTIMORE HEALTH COMMISSIONER, ER PHYSICIAN, PUBLIC HEALTH PROFESSOR, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Of course. Good to join you.
CUOMO: So, first question is this. 3 million people hitting the airports to go home for Thanksgiving, what will that translate into, in terms of potential cases, hospitalizations and worse?
And let's talk about why. The travel, it's not about transit. It's about where you arrive at in those small groupings, right? Take us through it.
WEN: That's exactly right. So, I'm less concerned about the travel itself. Although, there is certainly some risk associated with the travel.
But I'm much more concerned about what people are doing after they travel because almost certainly people are traveling to see loved ones, and then they're going to be gathering indoors, without wearing masks, in close proximity, gathered for long periods of time.
And people are coming from Coronavirus hotspots all over the country, because the entire U.S. is a Coronavirus hotspot. And, so, we know now from the CDC that nearly 60 percent of the transmission is by people who don't have symptoms.
And, so, someone you know and love, of course, they don't mean to, but they could very well infect you at Thanksgiving dinner. And so, I would just urge for everyone, if you have not left yet on a trip, please cancel your non-essential travel at this time.
And if you are staying put, then please only see people outdoors. Don't gather indoors. It's just not worth it, and we're going to see much higher rates of hospitalizations and deaths in the weeks to come.
CUOMO: OK. So, there are two levels of pushback, all right? And you take them each as you wish.
One is "No. This has been too long. Life is too short. I have been boxed up. I miss my loved ones. I can do it safe, and you guys grossly exaggerate how much people are going to get sick. And when they get sick, they're kind of OK," which personally bothers me, because long- haul is so real, and we're all ignoring it, but, "And no one ever really seems to die."
And the second thing is the pushback of "You don't really know how many people will get sick from less traveling. It seems like this thing just runs its course, and the vaccine is coming."
Deal with those pushbacks.
WEN: Well actually, I think we should start with the "Vaccine is coming" because that's so important because we know that there is light at the end of the tunnel.
We now have three vaccines that look like they could be available to us by early 2021. We could very well be celebrating Thanksgiving in July safely. So, this is not about us being isolated for forever.
[21:40:00]
I actually think it would be so tragic, if people died right now, if we see that there is hope on the horizon, and people are dying, by the thousands, every single day. That's the tragedy of it, especially because that's preventable.
And to the point about how dangerous this is, this is a very contagious disease. This virus doesn't care if we haven't seen our loved ones for a long time. It doesn't care that we're feeling scared and want to be with one another. It will infect people.
We are already seeing hospitals overwhelmed, ICUS that are way over capacity, healthcare workers that are out sick, and therefore unable to staff these ICUs. We need to flatten the curve once again.
And I know that we got to where we are because of failure of federal leadership. But at this point, it's up to individuals, up to each of us, to make the right decisions, to protect ourselves, and to stop the spread in our communities.
CUOMO: Leana, quickly, we know that we need to get to 70 percent of Americans being vaccinated, according to Operation Warp Speed, to reach herd immunity. You are only at about 55 percent to maybe 60 percent of Americans who say they will get vaccinated. What does that mean?
WEN: It means that we need to rapidly build trust because a vaccine, to work, needs to be safe, effective and trusted. And we need to enlist people in the communities themselves because trust can't be built overnight.
Trust is eroded very easily, and we need to be working on that now, including through, very quickly, funding our local health departments that are already struggling so much with resources.
CUOMO: You had a baby. You still put this information out as a priority for people all throughout. You have done it on all the shows. You have certainly gone out of your way to do it on mine here, and on radio.
I am thankful for you in my life, Dr. Leana Wen, best to you and the family. And thank you for giving people the right information. You can't make them believe it, but you can tell them the right information consistently, and you do that and thank you.
WEN: Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: All right. Now, the flip side of it, I don't know if you have been watching this show, but if you do, you know I have a problem with what we're doing in schools. It doesn't make sense to me.
Now there is a new wrinkle, OK? What is our assumption? Our assumption is why are they busting our chops about schools so much when the kids don't get that sick, right?
And we know we're afraid of, the teachers, the staff, the families, people with vulnerable people at home. But it doesn't really seem to be happening. Maybe it's because they don't test the right way or they don't tell us the truth. But it doesn't seem to be that big a deal. But we keep shutting them down all the time.
Maybe we don't have all the facts. Maybe even worse, it's not that we don't have all the facts. We've been believing the wrong reality about our schools. I do not like that suggestion, but we must pursue it.
And I have somebody who is putting all the numbers she can find together. This is what she does. She is here to present the data about the reality of what's happening in our classrooms, next.
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CUOMO: Full disclosure, I do not like what I'm about to hear. But we've got to be open, and we have to deal with data, where we find it. And I want to bring in former Data Scientist, for the Florida Department of Health, who co-founded The COVID Monitor.
Rebekah Jones, thank you very much for joining me on PRIME TIME, happy Thanksgiving to you and the family.
REBEKAH JONES, CO-FOUNDER, THE COVID MONITOR, FORMER DATA SCIENTIST, FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH: Thanks.
CUOMO: So, the supposition is why do we keep closing down schools, when the rate is so much lower than it is in the rest of the communities? For example, New York City, they just hit the 3 percent mark. But the schools are only 0.17 percent. Why shut down our schools? You are saying I have my facts wrong.
JONES: Well part of the reason of shutting down a school or school system is to prevent the case rate from getting higher. If you allow the case rate to become high, then you have acted too late. So, that is a preventive measure. It is actually pretty smart, and I stand with the New York City school system for doing that.
CUOMO: But our belief is that kids don't get as sick and things are better in school.
So, why don't you just shut down all the other places and leave our kids alone? You say that you found data that suggests that I'm not right, or I'm not being told the right things, about what's happening in schools.
Is that true? How did you assess the data? Where did you get the data? And what is your conclusion?
JONES: So, we actually, at The COVID Monitor, have been tracking cases in K through 12 schools since July.
And we have assembled a massive data set of every single state in the country, and we have logged more than 200,000 cases in K through 12 schools, since they started reopening this fall. That's a lot of cases.
And that's for only about 5,000 school districts in the country in the 24 states that are reporting mostly. And obviously the rates vary between school-level, high school kids, or twice as likely to get it as elementary school kids.
The mask policies, community transmission rates, and the percent of students that are enrolled face-to-face, all make a huge impact on school transition. It's also important to remember students aren't the only ones going to schools. Their parents are, their teachers, they all interact with the school environment.
And when you go to school, the virus goes with you, and it comes home with you. And they are not these inoculated centers or siloed places. They're community-based organizations, where lots of people congregate for long periods of time.
And we looked at, this week, of the 4,000 or so districts that are reporting both enrollment data and case data, less than 3 percent of all the districts in the country were in the lowest risk zone based on CDC guidance. So CDC--
CUOMO: What does that mean?
JONES: --CDC basically has a scale, 1 to 5, of how relatively safe it is to reopen schools. 1 being the safest, the green zone, and 5 being the least safe, you know, the red zone. And less than 3 percent were 1, very safe, green zone.
CUOMO: Do you have any assessment--
JONES: And two-thirds were in the highest--
CUOMO: Go ahead. Go ahead. Finish your point. Finish your point.
JONES: Yes.
CUOMO: Two-thirds were in what?
JONES: The higher or highest, so the 4 or 5 red zone, two-thirds were in those zones, but they're open right now. And that's based on the case rate in the school, in the actual school.
[21:50:00]
CUOMO: So, what does your analysis, at this point, suggest in terms of what we should be doing differently/better with our kids in schools?
And just so you know, Rebekah's not coming at this just as a clinician. She's got little ones herself, and she knows how scary it is to have them in school, and not get great data in great time, and what do you do if you don't have them at school. She understands all the travails that we're going through.
But what could we be doing better with our schools?
JONES: Well part of the problem that we've been encountering with this, at least in the United States, is that there hasn't been a whole lot of research about this "In the United States."
Most of the people who come and say, "Oh, it's totally fine, it's safe," have very limited - limited data here in the U.S., and are using studies, from over the summer, in other countries, like South Korea, which even there, the leading clinician on there, said that schools are an extremely high risk area, if you don't take these measures.
A lot of these people are applying this data, and saying, see it's totally safe, if you do it right, not realizing that most states in this country are not doing it right.
Florida, for instance, does not have a statewide mask mandate. Half of the school districts in this State don't require masks on campus. And their case rate for students is twice that of those districts that do require masks. So, these are immediate policy decisions that should have been made and can be made to reduce that risk.
CUOMO: So, the bad news is--
JONES: And we also have to think about it differently because 70 percent of cases in schools are students. They're not teachers. They're not staff. 70 percent are students. And the high school rate is twice that of elementary school students.
CUOMO: So that means we got to focus on the kids, even though we do care about the staff and the teachers, obviously.
JONES: Yes.
CUOMO: So, the bad news is, we have it wrong. It's worse in schools than we think. So, we got to shut up about saying that "Schools are OK, don't shut them down."
The good news is, if we just did the right things that we know to do the right way, we could get to where we need to be, where then we have a right to complain, about keeping them in school.
Rebekah Jones, I know you're going to stay on this. I will stay in contact with you to further our understanding. The best to you, at The COVID Monitor. Get us the information. We need it. And have a good Thanksgiving.
JONES: You, too. CUOMO: I got a gift for you. I got a gift for you. There's a video going around, that is true, that is such - it's not just Ameri-CAN. If I could trade places, and be somebody else, and have the qualities of another man, you are about to meet him right now.
Did you see the video of the guy who saved his puppy from the alligator? Don't show too much!
The puppy is fine. Look at him, biting the alligator. I want you to meet this guy. I want to tell you how this happened. And I want to tell you that you're about to talk to a guy who did all that and never even lost his cigar.
Florida's own Ameri-CAN, and his puppy best friend, it's right there, Richard Wilbanks, you are a reason to be thankful, this Thanksgiving, right next.
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CUOMO: We keep talking about people doing the wrong thing. Watch somebody do the right thing.
74-year-old Richard Wilbanks - show the video - jumps into a pond, when he watches his puppy get snatched by an alligator, OK?
(VIDEO - RICHARD WILBANKS WRESTLING HIS PUPPY FROM THE JAWS OF AN ALLIGATOR)
CUOMO: He goes under the water, grabs the alligator, pries its jaws open, and saves his pup Gunner. Gunner runs away. He - look at him. And here's why I fell in love with Richard Wilbanks, and had to have him on the show. He never lost his cigar!
Richard Wilbanks joins me right now.
How's our little friend, Gunner, doing?
RICHARD WILBANKS, SAVED HIS 3-MONTH-OLD PUPPY FROM GATOR ATTACK: Oh, he's doing fantastic, Chris. He is just a wonderful little King Charles Cavalier puppy that's just playful, and loving, and just sleepy right now. CUOMO: So, good for him. And boy, what an owner! Let me ask you something. You see the gator snatch the puppy. Happens all the time where you live. Did you even--
WILBANKS: Oh!
CUOMO: --did you even hesitate before saying "I'm going into the water to get that thing back?"
WILBANKS: No. I just - it was just reaction. When the alligator grabbed Gunner, and was swimming off in the pond with him, I just jumped right in, and was hoping I could get ahold of the alligator, and finally did, and got him up to the bank, and wrestled his mouth open, and got this little beautiful dog out.
CUOMO: Did he bite you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he bite you?
WILBANKS: Yes, the alligator bit me. I had some wounds on my hands. And I went and got a tetanus shot, and came home, and put some Super Glue in some cuts, and put them back together.
CUOMO: Who is filming you? Who is videoing this happen?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Federation.
WILBANKS: We work in conjunction with the Wildlife Federation here. We're very fortunate here, in South Florida, to have just a tremendous amount of wildlife. And they set up cameras to film the wildlife and show how natural--
CUOMO: Oh! So, this was just - they were just filming this area of this - of the pond, and you just happened to be in it?
WILBANKS: Yes. Yes. So, you know? We didn't even know it was on film, until about three weeks after the event, when they called, and told us, said, "Well you won't believe what we've got on our cameras here."
CUOMO: Nobody can believe it. I can't tell you how many people have contacted me about this, and said "It's got to be fake. It's got to be fake."
WILBANKS: Oh?
CUOMO: What did your family say to you when they heard what you did for your pup?
WILBANKS: Oh, it's just been - it's been fantastic. I mean, we've had so many well-wishers call and, you know, with concern about Gunner and concern about myself, and just wanted to make sure that we were all OK and--
