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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With Gov. Phil Murphy (D-NJ); Michigan Certifies Biden's Victory; Millions of America Ignore CDC Warnings, Travel Over Holiday; Rep. Elissa Slotkin (D-MI) and Rep. Paul Mitchell (R-MI) are Interviewed About Michigan State Board Certifying Biden's Election Win. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired November 23, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Despite the warning signs, Kentucky's attorney general is joining a federal lawsuit to stop the state's Democratic governor from closing schools to limit the virus' spread, while the governor of Texas, which has the most COVID cases in the country, is vowing his state won't shut down again, arguing most transmission is occurring in people's homes.

Other hard-hit cities and states announcing new restrictions. Starting today in Washington, D.C., all Smithsonian museums, including the National Zoo, will close temporarily, for a second time, as cases in the region rise.

Multiple college football games are now canceled due to COVID. And in Los Angeles County starting Wednesday, outdoor dining will be shut down. California Governor Gavin Newsom and his family are now quarantining after three of his children were exposed to a highway patrol officer with the virus.

But with so many people traveling and uneven restrictions across the country, experts fear the worst.

DR. WILLIAM HASELTINE, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT: All you're going to see is a week, two weeks from now, a huge increase in what's already a horrendous spike.

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JONES: And speaking of that already horrendous spike we're seeing getting worse, AAA predicts up to 50 million people will travel over this Thanksgiving holiday one way or another.

As one E.R. doctor put it, if only one out of 100 of those people ends up transmitting or catching the virus, that's more than half-a-million new coronavirus cases -- Erica.

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Talking about talking about putting it in perspective. Athena, thank you.

Joining me now, emergency physician at Brown University Dr. Megan Ranney, who is the co-founder of Get Us PPE.

Dr. Ranney, I'm not sure if you heard that at the end there, what Athena said, but that statistic that one doctor gave us, I mean, when we look at all of the Americans traveling right now, and so many predicted to continue doing so, if they insist on doing it, is there a way to travel safely at this point?

DR. MEGAN RANNEY, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: So, the safest answer, Erica, is absolutely to not travel, and not just to not travel, but also to not celebrate Thanksgiving indoors with people who are not part of your own household, the people you live with every single day.

That is the safest option. The next safest option after that would be to drive somewhere, have a dinner, but do it outside. And don't spend time indoors unmasked. Thanksgiving is just this perfect medium for spread of the virus. You're spending time inside without a mask, close together, for hours on end.

And, as Athena just said, if only 1 percent of travelers happen to spread or catch this virus, we're looking at over 500,000 new infections across the country in the next two to three weeks, which is just a staggering number, on top of the approximately 200,000 that we're already seeing per day.

HILL: Yes, absolutely.

You have been battling this for nine months, and you have been sounding the alarm that entire time. I just wonder, at this point, for you and your colleagues, do you feel like throwing up your hands sometimes at the fact that people just aren't paying attention?

RANNEY: You know, as a health care provider, I never throw up my hands. I just kind of go at it a little more doggedly.

But it is getting frustrating and exhausting for us. We are there to take care of our patients. We will show up day after day, with or without adequate personal protective equipment, because that's what we need to do.

We are currently signing up for extra shifts to cover our field hospitals, to cover our pediatric hospitals where we're putting adult patients, because many seats have run out of room in their adult hospitals right now.

But it gets really tiring. And it's tough to hear people say, well, I don't want to miss Thanksgiving. So many of us miss Thanksgiving every year to take care of patients. And so many more of us are going to miss Thanksgiving this year because it's the right thing to do. And we hope that Americans see that too.

HILL: Yes, I would hope so. You mentioned with or without the correct PPE. I was interested. So, the former FDA commissioner writing an op-ed

today arguing it's time for people to start using an N95 mask or an equivalent and saying that health care workers have dedicated supply chains, so it's OK now, right? We heard in the beginning we needed to ration those.

But you and I talked just yesterday, and it seems like you don't always have everything you need, or your colleagues don't always have what they need.

So I'm just curious how you feel about that guidance, go out and get yourself an N95 mask, average American, when perhaps the doctor who may need it can't?

RANNEY: Yes, I am concerned about that guidance.

There is certainly truth to the fact that surgical masks and N95 are more effective at preventing spread of the virus than your average cloth mask. That's why we don't wear cloth masks in the hospital. But for your average short social interaction, those higher-level masks really aren't necessary.

And, as you just mentioned, we still lack adequate supplies in much of the country. Now, the larger hospital chains, for the most part, are OK. They have found ways to build up their supply again.

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But those small critical access hospitals, nursing homes, home health care workers, those are the people who still lack PPE. Those are the people who are getting sick at a higher rate. And those are the people who need access to those N95s.

And if every American goes out and buys one, there's not going to be enough left for those people that still don't have it and are on the front lines. I will also add, Erica, that N95s are really only effective if you have been fit-tested.

There are a few different sizes and a few different types. So just buying one and wearing it without getting properly fit may not put you at as much protection as you think it might.

HILL: We have seen these new restrictions added across the country, L.A. County going so far as to now restrict outdoor dining, as well as indoor dining.

Is there one measure you think at this point that would be most effective nationwide?

RANNEY: The one thing I think most effective would be to have a single national strategy. It is so confusing for people to go from one state to another.

Listen, I live in Rhode Island. And if I travel across the border, I potentially have different rules and regulations than I do in my own little state. But, beyond that, the next thing would be universal masking. We know that it works to decrease transmission of the virus. And after that, it is the avoidance of those indoor gatherings.

We have talked a lot about household transmission, but indoor restaurants, indoor houses of worship, any time you're in a place like that without a mask, that is also a nidus for the spread of infection.

And so universal masking, then avoiding those indoor spots, those would be what I would love to see.

HILL: All right, we will cross our fingers.

Dr. Megan Ranney, always good to have you with us. Thank you.

RANNEY: Thank you.

HILL: Breaking news out of Michigan, where the state just voted to certify the election results.

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HILL: Breaking news, the state of Michigan just moments ago voting to certify Joe Biden's victory, meaning Biden will now formally receive the state's 16 electoral votes. This is another blow to President Trump's efforts to overturn the election results through legal challenges.

Let's go straight to CNN's Dianne Gallagher in Lansing, Michigan.

So, Dianne, one of the two Republican members of this Board of State Canvasser -- State Canvassers -- excuse me -- is actually who put this vote over the top.

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Erica.

And this was that one Republican that we have been talking about who had not made any comment beforehand who came and started the meeting by basically saying that, what we're supposed to do is review and certify the already county-certified results, and I don't see any other opportunity here for me to do something otherwise.

He did that, in turn voting to certify. Now, the other Republican, who had been telling people beforehand that he was not going to vote for certification, well, he didn't vote for certification, but he also didn't vote against it. He chose to abstain from the vote.

So, Michigan certified the results of the election by a 3-0 vote, that other Republican abstaining from the vote. Now, Erica, here's what happens next. Essentially, all of them -- there was a bipartisan agreement that there needs to be a post-election audit to take a look at what happened here in Michigan, go through the results in the different counties.

This also opens up now for any candidates at any level that may want to request a recount or an additional audit or investigation. This is what the secretary of state had continued to talk about, saying that the election needed to be certified before they could move on and do anything else in terms of a recount or another audit, Erica, but high drama leading up to this.

And it turns out, they ended up certifying today.

HILL: High drama, indeed.

Dianne Gallagher with the latest in Lansing -- Diane, thank you.

Well, today, the governor of New Jersey putting it in writing, formally calling on the Trump administration to recognize Joe Biden as president-elect, a process Governor Phil Murphy says could save lives during this once-in-a-century pandemic, writing in his strongly worded letter -- quote -- "Your failure to begin the transition process risks serious harm to the health and safety of our residents."

And New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy joining me now.

Governor, good to have you with us.

So, your letter specifically called out the head of the General Services Administration, saying her failure to recognize Joe Biden's win could impact vaccine and PPE distribution.

How so? What's your main concern there?

GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D-NJ): Good to be with you, Erica.

And, by the way, she's no relation.

Listen, this is an incredibly complex process. We did just have a very good call with the White House team. If you think about this in your mind's eye, it's a triangle. So, we are in -- we have got open lines of communication to the White House, to the current team.

We have got certainly open lines of communication down the other leg of the triangle to the Biden transition team. But they're not speaking. And this is an incredibly complex challenge. I think the vaccine news of late, by the way, has been really good. So -- but we got to -- we need all oars rowing together in harmony.

And let's separately deal with the certification and the lawsuits and all that sort of stuff. Let's get them into a room together and begin planning this together.

HILL: Have you had any sort of a response to your letter?

MURPHY: Not yet. Not yet. Just sent -- just sent out.

But we're going to stay at this. I mean, other governors believe this as well. I can say that for sure. We need all legs of that triangle connected.

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HILL: So why do you think -- in your mind, why do you think the Trump administration is not moving forward in that vein?

MURPHY: Well, I can't speak for them. Obviously, they would have to speak for themselves. Again, we have been able to find common ground with them from the get-go here.

I personally believe -- I know they are very focused on confidence in and around the vaccine as are we and they have every right to be. That's a big challenge. I think by not opening up the lines with the Biden team, it undermines confidence. I think confidence goes up immediately if all sides are seen to be working together for the good of the American people.

So, frankly, it's counterintuitive for me.

HILL: You know, as we look what's happening, your state is reporting some record highs -- obviously, not where you want to be, especially after you had really brought those numbers down after the height in the spring. I know you've cited COVID fatigue. Part of your new planning in the state, new restrictions limiting outdoor gatherings to 150 people.

I have to say, though, that still feels like a lot of people even if they're outside. Indoor gatherings limited to ten people. Are you concerned that saying, hey, you can still hang out with 150 people outside might send the wrong message?

MURPHY: Yeah. It's a good point. It was 500 and you're absolutely right. We beat the curve down almost unlike any other American state.

Even when you're outside, though, we want you to have a face covering, socially distant. So, for instance, we're in a big week for high school Thanksgiving football games. We don't want people congregating even when they're outside, never mind when they're inside and, obviously, the holiday itself is of great concern to us, particularly with any multigenerational gatherings. But, yeah, folks have to do the right thing here.

HILL: In Newark -- listen, we have been watching the positivity rate. This is your state's second largest city. It is hovering around 20 percent. I know measures have been taken there. The mayor now is asking people to shelter in place for ten days.

Should that be an order?

MURPHY: Listen. I think we're the densest state in America, Erica, so here's the challenge where a state as dense as ours, particularly one that's not only dense but it's spread across, believe it or not, 565 communities and they're all packed in top of one of each other and the mayor of Newark is star, by the way, the great partner in all of this.

The problem is if you mandate something over here, you may have an unintended consequence in a neighboring community. So, his words are advisory. We support them. The state executive orders are pretty stringent as you mentioned a minute ago.

We don't want gatherings indoors over ten people, restaurants closing at 10:00. We're allowing municipalities to close them -- indoors that is -- close them earlier. Obviously, we keep monitoring this literally minute-to-minute.

HILL: I know one of your concerns and frankly one we hear from officials across the country you're trying to balance these restrictions, right, the public health measures with the reality of the economic impact on businesses and on the community, the greater community.

Is there a point, though, where you have to perhaps, especially after this holiday, may have to look at closing down more businesses?

MURPHY: You have to have everything on the table, and we -- and we showed in March that we were prepared to do that. We closed as fast and as hard as any American state.

I hope, please, God, it doesn't come to that, as you rightfully, the preface of your question rightfully highlights.

I'll tell you what we'll do (ph) is a lot more degrees of freedom. If Congress, especially the Republican Senate, could get around the table and get an agreement on a big stimulus package right now that would give life lines to small businesses and unemployed folks, budgets like states and local, to allow us to continue to keeping people employed, that allows us more degrees of freedom that, right now, we just don't have.

HILL: Yeah, that stimulus is so important, and nowhere to be seen at this moment. You're right.

New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy, good to have you with us today. Thank you.

MURPHY: Thanks for having me, Erica.

HILL: More on our breaking news now on the election out of Michigan after a controversial vote there.

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HILL: Breaking news, moments ago, it became official. Michigan certifying Joe Biden's victory in that state. The state secretary saying democracy has prevailed and that Michigan survived an unprecedented attack.

Certification is usually a run-of-the-mill process that in classic 2020 fashion became incredibly controversial.

Joining me live to discuss -- something rare but welcome these days, a Republican and a Democrat who share views on this, and they want to be together in an interview -- Democratic Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin, Republican Congressman Paul Mitchell. They co-wrote an op-ed over the weekend calling on President Trump to accept his loss and to allow for a peaceful transition. Good to have both of you with us.

Boy, things have changed since we talked about having you first come on the program this morning.

Congressman Mitchell, I know you spoke a few days ago with one of the board members, Norman Shingle, he's a Republican. He had indicated that he was going to vote against certification. Instead, he abstained.

I'm just curious. What was that conversation like that the two of you had?

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REP. PAUL MITCHELL (R-MI): He expressed concerns about the number of things you heard in the board of canvass meeting about the accuracy of the vote, about some misconduct, potential fraud, concerns about Dominion, a whole series of things, a number of them just conspiracy theories.

And it involved to the place that, well, maybe we just push back the vote so we can investigate. As I said, there is no mechanism in Michigan law to do that. So, but he was -- he was very much in the mode of we should push back and we shouldn't certify. He abstained today but he was very critical of the election process.

It could always need improvement. We had a record vote, there is going to be the some errors. There's going to be some things that you don't like, but I think we had an election that spoke for and we have -- we have a president-elect. It's Joe Biden and we need to move forward.

HILL: Congresswoman Slotkin, there were so many today county level clerks, there was local election officials saying it is your duty to certify this election. In fact, one said, a vote against certification would show democracy is dying in Michigan.

Was that your main concern? Do you agree?

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI): Well, listen, certainly we know they took something that was typically apolitical and made it political. And I think, importantly, it showed that there are rules, there are laws, there are procedures and those things should be followed whether your team wins or not. And so, certainly, one of the concerns I know that I had going into this was kind of the hallowing out of democracy. And what it means if you have people who just don't believe in our system any more.

So, I'm glad that it worked. I'm glad that people did their job and I'm glad that Michigan could go ahead and certify.

HILL: You know, as we look at this, there is some concern, Congressman Mitchell, moving forward about these efforts led by the president, a number of Republicans as well, that if the president's M.O. is to sow doubt and confusion to undermine the election, that could last well beyond 2020 and we're at right now. How much of a concern is that for you and how much of is that

conversation with some of your Republican colleagues?

MITCHELL: Well, it's a conversation we're having with a lot of people who are standing up for what the most fundamental thing, the value of our vote and the importance in our republic. I think that's what I took oath to. And I -- as Alyssa knows, there's a number of things with her that I disagree about, the one thing we're both very much pledged towards, which is supporting our country. And doing that means we need to have an effective transition. Failure to do that puts our country as risk from a national security perspective.

Your previous guest was talking about the issue around pandemic. While I don't agree with the governor of New Jersey on a number of things, I do agree that failure to coordinate and dealing with the pandemic, and dealing with the vaccine, is another major issue we have in this country. We need to move forward, and to do that, we need the administration, the Trump administration to cooperate and recognize the loss of the election. It's that simple.

HILL: There's the moving forward, right, in terms of recognizing the results of the election, allowing that peaceful transition to begin taking place, and then there's just sort of a moving forward in general.

And this is -- I'm going to throw this out to both of you. But I'll start with you, Congresswoman Slotkin.

How do you start to do that now? What is the message in Michigan that ideally can be heard across the country in terms of moving forward?

SLOTKIN: Sure. I think that we have to give a lot of credit to the clerks and to the people who are involved in getting us this far and take our lead from that, right? A lot of these folks have shown a lot of leadership, a lot of bravery, and we need to say, this is, you know, the time and the moment for people to stand up and do the same thing.

I hope Michigan serves as that example. We were obviously under tremendous pressure. Our Republican colleagues were called to the White House, and they resisted and we have a positive result today. So, I hope that's the example we set.

And then as Paul said, I mean, we serve on the Armed Services Committee together. I think we all need to remember that transition isn't just a political thing. It's about national security and protecting our homeland, and we need to focus the country on that, on just protecting ourselves and getting that handoff, that safe responsible handoff before January.

Then we got to figure out how we work together again. And I think part of the reason Paul and I wanted to do this op-ed was because we know -- I'll speak for myself -- that we have to govern together, we have to connect together and figure out how to work together and disagree without being disagreeable. HILL: Well, I look forward to you two setting an example as we head

into January. Really appreciate both of you taking the time to join us.

Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin, Congressman Paul Mitchell, thank you both.

Before we let you go this hour, we want to remember one of the 257,000 American lives lost to coronavirus.

John Scott Kensett (ph) was a 73-year-old retired firefighter and a grandfather. His daughter Julie remembers him as a silent hero. He loved stream engine trains and road trips with his wife, Jane. They visited all 50 states.

His true passion was firefighting. And in retirement, he went down to the firehouse every weekend just to say hello. Kensett's wife was not able to be with him in his final moments so she said good-bye to her husband of 52 years over FaceTime.

Our deepest condolences to the Kensett (ph) family and to all of those who have lost loved ones to this pandemic.

I'm Erica Hill, in for Jake Tapper today.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now.

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