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Cuomo Prime Time

Biden Says "America Is Back, Ready To Lead The World" As He Introduces Key Cabinet Picks; Rubio Mocks Joe Biden For "Ivy League"- Educated Cabinet Picks; U.S. COVID-19 Hospitalizations At Highest Level Since Pandemic Began. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired November 24, 2020 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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LISA LING, CNN HOST, THIS IS LIFE WITH LISA LING: Thanks for having me, John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR, NEW DAY: And be sure to tune in, a brand- new powerful season of "THIS IS LIFE WITH LISA LING" premieres with back-to-back episodes this Sunday, starting at 9 P.M., right here on CNN.

Reminder, don't miss "FULL CIRCLE," Anderson's digital news show. You can catch it streaming at 6 P.M. Eastern on CNN, at CNN.com/FullCircle or watch it there or on any CNN app, anytime on-demand.

The news continues. So, let's go to Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME."

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: All right, thank you, John.

I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.

Our President-Elect Joe Biden has already dealt with some legendary roadblocks. But he has also been delivered a legendary mandate. 80 million of you came out to vote for him, more than 6 million more than came out for Trump, in a strong rejection of Trump's notion of what a president is.

Now, Biden, we see with just limited access to what he needs to get a feel for, already off to a better start than we saw four years ago.

Instead of picking misfits and players with more problems than experience, Biden has key nominees and appointees who will be firsts for good reasons, a policy that puts our best first, not our worst.

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JOE BIDEN (D) PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's a team that reflects the fact that America is back, ready to lead the world, not retreat from it, once again, sit at the head of the table, ready to confront our adversaries and not reject our allies.

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CUOMO: It would seem just as important as what Biden is for, was a quick reminder today of what a historic number of you said you are against.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Keep America great, and, as I say, "America First." Shouldn't go away from that, "America First."

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CUOMO: Remember what it's translated into, America being among the worst in handling the pandemic and an economy that Trump can only celebrate because there are food lines snaking across this country.

Today was the worst single day for deaths in America from COVID. Did you know that, since May? More than 2,000, gone.

So, already Biden is different. He sees the need. He actually speaks to what's wrong. Instead of trouncing Trump for ignoring a health crisis, and sabotaging his transition, which he certainly could, his focus seems to be not on his political position, but on our position and improving it ASAP.

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BIDEN: We're already, we're working out meeting with the COVID team in the White House and how to not only distribute but get from a vaccine being distributed to a person able to get vaccinated, so I think we're going to not be so far behind the curve as we thought we might be in the past.

And there's a lot of immediate discussion, and - and I must say, the outreach has been sincere. There's has not been begrudging so far. And I don't expect it to be. So yes it's already begun.

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CUOMO: It's weird for us to not have an interview where we have to explain why a president was vindictive, or to fact-check everything he said, or just to figure out why the President of the United States is deciding to act like a putz.

But Biden and, frankly, this country, has much bigger worries than style. New models project COVID cases in the U.S. will nearly double by the time Mr. Biden is inaugurated, could possibly reach a staggering 20 million cases. And again, more people died today than we have seen since May.

The Task Force, on the good side, is finally free to admit the truth, to speak truth, and not worry about political reprisal. And they said today we have to radically change behavior.

But Biden has to tell you where that is true and what can be done about it. And he needs Republicans to do it with him. Now, let's focus on the last part. It's going to be hard. Why? Trumpers are coming forward to attack. But now the game has changed. You must remember what these new

students of virtue and the common man, what they stood by and empowered.

Exhibit "A," Senator Rubio, who now has a problem with good resumes. Look at his tweet. Why? They "Went to Ivy League schools," and having "Strong resumes," he argues Biden's team "Will be polite & orderly caretakers of America's decline," says "I support American greatness."

Remember, what he calls American greatness, enabling Trump's three- week sabotage of the election. He didn't go against it. He never knew or offered any basis for any of the frivolous litigation.

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In four years, Rubio quoted the Bible a lot, but he was sure not inspired to speak truth to power when it came to this President. You want to criticize Biden's choices? Fine, you can do it, but good schools?

Remember, Secretary Pompeo, Harvard Law, Secretary Mnuchin, Yale, Esper, Harvard, Barr, Columbia, Ross, Yale and Harvard, Acosta, Harvard, Secretary Azar, Dartmouth and Yale, Carson, Yale, Chao, Harvard.

What's the point? Where was your common man touch then? Where was your play to the hoi polloi instead of the hoity-toity? It's a lot of hooey is what it is.

But more important, now that guys like Rubio try to step out of that shadow, shine that disinfectant light of truth. Where was he on Trump's choices in that administration, not where they went to school, but when they got chased out or bailed out? Steve Bannon, where was he?

Don't believe the concern now when people like Rubio sat by and showed you who they were for years, OK? That's the reality. Remember. And think about this. You want to start criticizing things, talking about what matters, don't worry about where people went to school. Focus not on pedigree but poverty.

Speak to the long lines of Trumpers, OK, the people that you swore to help that would make it great again and all that other BS. Miles long, these lines are, from Texas to New Jersey, and too many places in between. Focus on what matters, like the fact that you have done nothing about it in this Congress.

The question is will Biden be able to get Republicans to take on the pandemic that they allowed to fester? Our next president wants to replace division with determination.

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BIDEN: I hope as president, and many of the Republican governors and mayors felt the same way, I hope that we're going to be able to have a united voice on the need to mask, socially distance, testing and tracing. They're critical, critical pieces to dealing with bringing down this virus in a more manageable place.

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CUOMO: All right, so he's already talking about things that we haven't heard about, in terms of doing more. But where and how, we'll have to see.

But in that interview, he took a step that Trump would never even consider, and it's an important one. Would Biden include someone in his administration, or more, from the other Party?

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BIDEN: Yes. And we still have a lot more appointments to make. I want this country to be united. The purpose of our administration is, once again, uniting. We can't keep this virulent political dialog going. It has to end.

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CUOMO: It's an ambition that is going to ring true with a lot of hearts in this country but can he do it? Is he going to be able to change the political disposition or get savaged by trumpery and opposition?

Let's bring in Van Jones, and Charlie Dent.

Good to see you, gentlemen, thankful for you both being in my life, and helping my audience, on a regular basis, appreciate you, thankful for you.

Van Jones, what do you think about Biden's approach, thinking about putting a Republican on there, reaching across, trying to do things the better way. Is that being president or setting himself up for yet another bad precedent?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: No, look, I think it's good. I think it's good. Listen, he's trying to pull together a broken, fragmented country.

He's got to make sure that the progressives get something. And so far, the progressives are patient with his appointments. Right now, he's just got a lot of oatmeal, a lot of kind of boring folks who can pull the house together. He's got to do something to help the progressives.

But he also should do something to help the Republicans because it's not the Republican Party itself. It's a Republican Party as it's been twisted by Trump. And if there's a pathway back to redemption, and there's a pathway back to bipartisanship, on his terms, he should take it.

CUOMO: Quickly, Van, and a follow-up. You want to see a Bernie? You want to see a Yang? Who do you want to see?

JONES: Andrew Yang would be an amazing choice. He's innovative. He's, you know, listen, he is a positive populist. He's not mad at billionaires. He's not mad at immigrants.

He is mad at the fact that our wages have flat-lined and he's got great ideas. And Andrew Yang would be a great signal to, I think, to the country that the next generation is being welcomed in.

CUOMO: All right.

Charlie, what do you take from what we heard from Senator Rubio today, coming after the administration choices on the basis of pedigree.

You had plenty of high-pedigreed people, you had a lot of bums also, but you had a lot of pedigreed people, in the Trump administration. We've just never seen people get chased out for bad acts and bad pasts the way they did. Rubio never said any of it.

But it is a signal of opposition. Is that the way your Party is headed?

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CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, (R) FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE, PENNSYLVANIA: Well I think you have to consider that Marco Rubio is considered to be a likely candidate for president, in a few years, and he's probably trying to draw a contrast between himself, and his own view of national security and foreign policy with the Biden team's.

I would hope that Senator Rubio and Republicans in the Senate would endorse and confirm the folks who have been nominated so far.

It's a solid competent group of people, and they will bring some measures, stability in, you know, back into the national security space, which is really desperately needed after four years of "America First. America Alone."

CUOMO: I hear you on that and his potential future. But he's not talking policy. He's talking people and division. He's talking pedigree, us and them. He's trying to take a page out of Trump's book. Do you think that he--

DENT: Yes.

CUOMO: --or Cruz or any of these guys can seriously think that Trump's base will take to them the way they took to him?

DENT: No, I believe if anybody is going to run for president, in a few years, they better - they better develop their own platform, their own position, because whoever that nominee is going to be, that's going to be the policy or the position, or the platform of the Party.

So, they needed - they need to stop looking backwards and start looking forward. Trump was just rejected. I would argue so was Left wing of the Democratic Party in recent election. And so, now it's time for the Republican Party to revisit what it stands for rather than just simply endorsing what Trump believed in. I mean there was no platform in the 2020 election for the GOP. They

have to develop a real policy, real platform, on national security, and other issues, because Trump, by that time, should be a figure of the past, although he'll make a lot of noise between now and then.

CUOMO: Van, now many Democrats may like this. But one of the criticisms, I think, Rubio was trying to get to, in a ham-fisted way, is this is Obama 2.0. This is a third Obama term. What do you make of that suggestion?

JONES: Well hallelujah!

I mean, Obama got us out of the Great Depression - Great Recession, saved the auto industry, got healthcare to millions of people, and handed Trump an economy that was moving in a great direction. Trump was able to hold on for a little bit, but then crashed it, by mishandling the COVID crisis.

So, I don't think - I think the American people just spoke, they just literally re-elected - or just literally elected Obama's Vice President. So, I don't think America is mad at Obama. I think America wants what Obama represented, but now with bigger challenges.

I also think that you've got a real opportunity here on the world stage. I mean what you're seeing now is people around the world, this big sigh of relief, around the world, that America might be back.

It's not - "America First," those are two good words. Everybody wants their team to be first. Nobody wants their team to be last. But those terms got polluted and twisted, just as Charlie was saying, into "America by itself with no friends, hanging out with dictators, and going the wrong way."

And so, there's a chance for America to come - to really come back, not just locally, not just the healing here, but around the world. And that's, I think, the excitement. Nobody's mad at Obama right now. People are still mad at Donald Trump.

CUOMO: Right. Look, people thought it was cynical, when we talked about where "America First" came from in our history, decades ago, and what it meant then, and it started to get scarily similar to that.

So, why am I asking about his choices on the Left? Because Biden has a challenge Trump didn't, which is savagery from his own. The Progressive wing is going to check him almost as quickly as the Republicans will as Trump starts to fade a little bit.

So, here's what he had to say about Bernie and Elizabeth Warren in terms of his team.

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LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS ANCHOR, NBC NIGHTLY NEWS AND DATELINE NBC: What about former rivals from your own party, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, have you talked to them about cabinet positions? BIDEN: Well, I've - I've talked to them. Look, as I said, we already have significant representation among progressives in our administration. But there's nothing really off the table.

But one thing is really critical. Taking someone out of the Senate, taking someone out of the House, particularly a person of consequence is a really difficult decision that would have to be made.

I have a very ambitious, very progressive agenda. And it's going to take really strong leaders in the House and Senate to get it done.

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CUOMO: Now, I got to tell you, Charlie, let's talk mechanics of politics for a second.

I understand that criticism - not criticism, that concern. "I don't want to lose a Senate seat," especially when it looks like, they may lose the Senate, the Democrats, in these special elections. More on that in a second.

But Bernie Sanders said on this show, when I said "Well Bernie, you know, you don't want to lose your seat, right?" He had an answer ready, like that, Charlie. He said "The Governor there said he'll put another person in my seat that would caucus with the Democrats."

He wants a position. If you're advising Biden, do you put Bernie in place?

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DENT: No, I do not, simply because the Senate Democrats don't have any kind of a cushion. They need every seat.

And we don't know how this Georgia runoff is going to go, but best case for Democrats is they'll be at 50/50, you pluck one out, you're - now you're at 50/49. That could affect reorganization.

So, I think Joe Biden is smart, frankly, to find more centrist nominees, one, they'll be easier to confirm, and two, he'll be able to blame the Republicans anyway for it, because I think many Republicans in the Senate are not going to support some of these more far-Left characters or potential people that would go into the cabinet.

So, I think Biden is, so far, playing it pretty smart. And I would be very much - I would be very much averse about plucking somebody from the Senate right now, and even the House, with only about a four-vote or five-vote - four-vote or five-vote cushion there.

CUOMO: Biden needs friends right now to change the messaging, Van.

The big change, there are a couple of things that he could do. We'll see. I have one of his transition team members from the Task Force, on the COVID side, in the next segment. And I'll ask her about this.

But you need to change messaging. You need Republicans, next to Biden, saying "Wear the mask. Take the socially distancing. It's not weakness. It's strength." You think he can get that?

JONES: I think he can get it from business leaders. I think he can get it from some celebrities who may have appeal on the Right, from country music stars, and some NASCAR people.

The politicians right now have been a profile in cowardice, in the Republican Party, on this issue, too often so far.

But I don't think honestly - you've got a lot of influencers who would love to be able to go back to a White House, I mean, on the Left and the Right, without having the challenges that being associated with the Trump administration brought to a lot of influencers, for good or for bad.

So, I do think that Biden can set a big enough table, and be an inviting enough convener that a lot of people can come around him, and help him with his message.

I don't think it comes down to conservative politicians, who so far, weren't even willing to stand up for American democracy for the past three weeks. They're not going to do it. But others will.

CUOMO: Paul Ryan had a shot, early on, to be a generational figure, in terms of kind of not really Left and Right but reasonable. And then he just went in the bag--

JONES: Yes.

CUOMO: --for Trump, swallowing that tax cut, and really getting beat up, as Speaker. He had a provocative thought today. He said - unless you just want to dismiss it as just ham-fisted partisanship, this is the question for you, Charlie.

In Joe Biden's best interest, for Republicans to win the special elections in Georgia, and retain control of the Senate, so he really does have to work with both sides of the aisle. Is that a smart long- term play balance?

I want your take - I want both of your takes starting with Charlie on this.

DENT: Yes. Actually, I do agree with Paul Ryan that this will force every - this - by having a divided government with Biden as President and the GOP Senate that will force people to the center.

It will empower people like Joe Manchin and Susan Collins, and Members of the Problem Solvers Caucus in both the Senate and the House.

CUOMO: Didn't with Obama.

DENT: And they'll be able to reach some deals.

CUOMO: It allowed McConnell--

DENT: What's that?

CUOMO: It didn't with Obama. Allowed McConnell to say, "I'm going to do nothing for this guy, and stop everything," and he did.

DENT: Well at the end of the day--

JONES: Yes. I agree--

DENT: --I do believe that both - I believe that both - I believe that both Biden and McConnell are incrementalists. They are very - they're pragmatic. They will - they will reach agreements. And I think they have that kind of relationship.

Is there going to be partisanship? Of course, there will be. But I think they have the ability to get some things done, on infrastructure, broadband, I would even argue, China, of course COVID.

There are some issues where they are going to be able to agree. And I think, and in many - in many respects, Republican-controlled Senate is a nice foil for Joe Biden, when his Left flank is going to be nipping at him all the time, for not - for not pushing hard enough. And he can just simply blame McConnell.

CUOMO: Van, am I still too wounded by hearing McConnell say that this three-week sabotage was how it always goes in transition to believe he would ever be incremental, in anything, if it means moving towards the other side? What's your take?

JONES: Look, I think that the Democrats need the ability to govern, and that means the Democrats need the Senate.

And I don't - there's this theory out there, from people who suddenly love the Democratic Party, and love Joe Biden, and wanted Joe Biden to do well, they keep giving him this great advice, to let the most obstructionist Majority Leader in American history keep his gavel. That's somehow going to make Biden have a better presidency. That is complete crap.

What we know about McConnell is he is very, very focused on maintaining power, blocking Democrats, packing courts. He's not going to change. Has he done some things? Yes, he did a couple of things. He doesn't do - he doesn't do a lot when it comes to Democrats.

[21:20:00]

And so, I think that Biden himself is moderate enough. He doesn't need to be able to point to somebody else, and say, "Well I can't - I would give you all these Left-wing ideas, but the Republicans won't let me do it." He can speak for himself and say what he's for and what he's not. He did it through whole primary.

So, I just think this whole line of reasoning, I think, is ill- considered. Biden needs the full power of the government in his hands, the same way Trump had it in his hands, to undo the damage Trump did.

And McConnell is not going to be a great partner. He certainly won't be as good a partner as Schumer would be, in that effort.

CUOMO: Van Jones, Charlie Dent, thank you both. Best to your families, I'm thankful for you. Enjoy Thanksgiving.

DENT: Happy Thanksgiving.

JONES: Yes.

CUOMO: Easy to say, hard to do this year though, isn't it? Thanksgiving is going to be tough. The pandemic is really just sucking the thanks out of us. And on one hand, if it's missed you, if you had people make through it, you should be thankful. But this is going to be hard.

Now, thankfully, what do we know? We have the President-Elect saying that the transition is not going to be held up the way he feared. Good! What does that look like in terms of how things could change and soon?

We have a member of Biden's new COVID Task Force here. What kinds of things are they planning to do to ramp up our access to testing, and what do - what does this doctor see as the way forward in the near future? Next.

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CUOMO: Our ability to save the lives of COVID patients and others is getting harder by the day. We just hit the highest number of deaths in this country for a single day since May, OK? That's in months. We're supposed to be going the other way. And it's getting worse than ever.

For the 15th day straight, we set new hospitalization records. More than 88,000 COVID patients are being treated right now. It's the highest since the pandemic began. That is the highest since the pandemic began.

Just because you're tired of hearing it, I'm tired of having to tell it to you, fatigue doesn't equal progress. It doesn't go away because we're sick of it. It's getting worse.

Now the good news is the Biden administration won't hide from these realities, OK? But that doesn't mean that it's going to be easy to turn it around, especially in a country where doing the right thing has been bastardized into the wrong thing for political points, OK? Now, the transition is happening. Let's bring in Dr. Celine Gounder. She's a member of the Biden Transition COVID-19 Advisory Board, and of course an infectious disease expert, NYU and Bellevue.

I should hit you up on live television. I really want to get us into the long-haul NYU Study Center, to give them some publicity for what they're trying to do, and to show people how even a mild case can leave you in a place that you don't want to be.

But I'll put it out there publicly. I'll talk to you about it privately. And we're working on it already. But I think it would be helpful for people.

Now, the transition, on the way out, they are saying, according to Admiral Brett Giroir, that they're looking at "Preponderance of evidence," which is known as a civil law standard, I don't know what it means in medicine that a shorter quarantine complemented by a test may be enough to slow the spread.

Your take, on doing this, on the way out?

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, MEMBER, BIDEN TRANSITION COVID-19 ADVISORY BOARD, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT, NYU & BELLEVUE HOSPITAL: Well the timing is a little bit strange. But I will say there does seem to be science to perhaps back this up.

In fact, I was on the phone, earlier this afternoon, with the scientist at Yale, who's looking at this exact question. And he has been studying, you know, could you have shorter quarantines, around eight days with a test at exit, so, at end of quarantine. He's in fact done some of these studies with oil rigs, and workers on oil rigs, for a company based out in Australia.

And so, there is preliminary data that this may be one way we can make the idea of quarantine less burdensome to people.

CUOMO: So it's Thanksgiving, right? We've been working on testing for months and months.

I'm sure you're hearing, you probably hear it 10 times, as much as I do, people calling you and saying "Celine," if they know you, and "Doctor," if they don't, "I need a test. I can't get a test. The test is three days. I got to wait in 2.5 lines. I can't get the test. They say you can get the rapid test. The FDA approved it. I can't get the machine. I got the machine. It was $50. But I can't get anything" the access is still totally wacky, even now. What will change that?

GOUNDER: Yes, I've been getting text messages all week, photos from people standing in line, at CityMD, and other urgent care centers, or other testing centers, waiting for their test.

I think one of the first things that you're going to be seeing is that the President-Elect will be invoking the Defense Production Act with respect to personal protective equipment and also possibly with respect to tests. So, we really do want to see a big ramping up of test capacity. And it's not just about tests. That's also about some of the other supplies. We've heard about swabs, and all of that, since the beginning of the pandemic.

And it's also very much about staffing, people who can collect the test, and send them off, and process them in the lab. There's a lot that needs to be scaled up in the coming months.

CUOMO: Let me put up something that you're going to have to deal with.

This is from Congressman Crenshaw, OK? Decorated veteran, served his country, he's on the cutting-edge of the young Republicans in Congress. They are doing frontal attack on restrictions, OK?

"This is wrong. Businesses should not comply with unreasonable infringements from government."

[21:30:00]

Now, that is a tricky play for him because if something is a law, and you're telling people not to obey the law, you've got a problem. But what he's hoping is he's dealing with government guidance. That's why he's being that bold.

But the idea that businesses, that Americans who are told how to limit people in their homes, that they should not comply, and resist, and fight back, what do you make of that messaging?

GOUNDER: Well I think people resist these kinds of restrictions, these public health measures, when their most immediate economic and social needs are not being met, especially when the pandemic might seem like an abstract threat, until of course it's not.

And so, this is precisely why we have a stimulus, that's been sitting before Congress for some time now. Senator McConnell has yet to take up that stimulus package. The prior stimulus support is running out.

And people really are going to have a tough couple several weeks ahead, before January 20th, if somebody doesn't do something about the stimulus. People really need help to make rent, to put food on the table now.

CUOMO: Big touchstone for families is schools. Let's listen to the President-Elect on that.

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HOLT: You've got schools closed right now in places where restaurants are open. Are our priorities correct?

BIDEN: I think we should be able to do both. But look, I am very concerned about the schools.

And I, for example, I was on call yesterday was Mayor de Blasio, the largest school district in the country. He is - he is in a position where it cost tens of millions of dollars to be able to safely open the schools.

It is the single best expenditure of our dollars we could engage in now is to provide for these kinds of protection, not only the protective gear but the PPP, meaning the ability to allow businesses and other operations to be able to open and have the wherewithal, the financial aid to open safely.

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CUOMO: Now, to be fair, we're not going to dump a problem that is months' old on the President-Elect, and say, "Fix everything right now." Not fair! Not fair when you overloaded testing to the restaurants and the bars and didn't do planning for schools, for months. So, you didn't have what you need.

Now, that said, the schools, I think, is going to be a big problem for you guys, because you have parents like me who hate that they're closed, and it seems to speak to bad management.

You can't find a better way to deal with schools than when there's a single case in my kids' class, they run out like there was a mass shooter in there?

And yet, I had this expert on last night, Doc, who said, "Cuomo, you're a fool. The numbers are worse in schools than you even know, and the schools do have to be closed. New York City is doing the right thing. And if you don't control the caseload there, it actually has an, not exponential, but a magnified significance on communities."

Explain that to me. Why is it more dangerous to have cases in schools when we keep being told that kids don't get as sick?

GOUNDER: I'm not sure that I would agree with that statement.

We know that the prevalence of Coronavirus cases in schools, including in New York City, is lower in the schools than it is in the community. And I think we really do need to try to keep schools open as much as possible--

CUOMO: Good.

GOUNDER: --as long as there's not widespread community transmission.

CUOMO: So, help me understand that. So, if you're in a community where they have some cases, but the cases in the schools are not as bad as the cases in the community, why do we snap to closing the schools?

GOUNDER: Well, I think, unfortunately, this has not been something that we fully understood. We didn't fully understood the - understand the risks in schools, the difference between the prevalence in the community and in the schools.

And so, we will need to shift our guidelines to adapt to new knowledge whether it's with respect to schools or other things in the future.

CUOMO: And do you think that's going to be a priority, in kind of figuring out who is doing things the best ways, in different parts of the country, and finding a way to kind of make that a universal playing field, so people can kind of be schooled on how to keep schools open?

GOUNDER: I think absolutely.

And while New York did close its schools recently, it was actually a tremendous success that we were able to open schools and keep them open as long as we did. That's really unlike any other school district of its size across the country.

CUOMO: I know. It's just hard. People don't want to go back. It's hard enough they got the kids back in school, if they come back home, it screws up everybody economically.

And you got to hear what those guys like Crenshaw are saying, because if they make this political, that "To resist, to strength" you're going to have a problem on your hands.

Doctor, good luck going forward. Thank you for joining us, and have a good Thanksgiving with your family.

GOUNDER: Thank you, you too.

All right, the outgoing president slipped in a couple of pardons before he leaves. No, we're just talking about turkeys, OK? But let's talk turkey. Pardons are going to be an issue with this President.

[21:35:00]

Who might he pardon? Should you care? And then the one really provocative one that I'm not even sure is possible but I have a better mind, much better, to answer this question, could Trump protect/pardon himself?

We bring in the man, former White House Ethics Czar, there he is, Norm Eisen. What's the answer? Next.

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CUOMO: The President pardoned the turkeys. I got to tell you, I never even understood what the hell this is about. But I guess it's a tradition. It's funny that this is one of the traditions that Trump decided to respect, right? But you got to say, those birds, I don't know that they're in any way near as much jeopardy as the guy handing out the ceremonial pardons, why?

[21:40:00]

There's nothing ceremonial about the legal threats, especially on the state level, that are waiting for Donald Trump. He has more than once claimed to "Absolute right to pardon" himself. Now, what we know absolutely is he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about when it comes to law or fact.

But he does have big-time pardon powers. So, what does that mean for the cast of criminally-charged characters around him, who have been around every step of his political life?

Let's bring in former Ambassador, and White House Ethics Czar, Norm Eisen.

Ambassador, best to you and your family for Thanksgiving. Welcome back.

NORM EISEN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE ETHICS CZAR UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA, SENIOR FELLOW, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION, FORMER AMBASSADOR TO THE CZECH REPUBLIC: Thanks, Chris, great to be back with you.

CUOMO: First, his pardons that he could give to others, is it pretty much whatever he wants?

EISEN: Well, there are some limits, Chris. The Constitution gives the President very broad pardon powers. But as you can appreciate, if he took a bribe to issue a pardon, he could be criminally prosecuted.

If the pardon was issued, and this is where we have concerns about President Trump, as part of a conspiracy, if the reason Paul Manafort has been silent, for all these years of the Trump presidency, is because of a pardoned angle, that would expose the President to criminal exposure. So, those kinds of limitations do come in, but the pardon power is very broad.

CUOMO: Does Michael Flynn figure into that analysis?

EISEN: He does. Flynn has cultivated the favor of the President. The President has talked about his case, engaged in very dubious, terrible conduct in attacking the Judge, attacking the jurors in that case.

Now, there is a wrinkle in the Flynn story, Chris, which is that the President has just broken, very publicly, with Flynn's lawyer, Sidney Powell. But I don't think that will affect the ultimate calculus. Flynn is at the top of the list after those Thanksgiving turkeys.

CUOMO: Now, the big question, the megillah, can a President self- pardon? It is not discussed in the Constitution. What is the best reckoning, because we have no precedent?

EISEN: Well the most fundamental rule of Anglo-American jurisprudence, going back for centuries, is that a person cannot be the judge in his or her own case. So, you're right that the Constitution is silent on whether or not a president can pardon himself.

Chris, I think part of the reason for that is that the Founders of our country and the Framers of the Constitution never imagined that they would have to say that about a president. But of course Donald Trump has brought about a lot of unimaginable scenarios--

CUOMO: So what happens?

EISEN: --in his tenure as president.

CUOMO: He says "I pardon myself." Now what?

EISEN: It would play out in the following way.

He would pardon himself on the way out. If there were, for example, if there were a federal prosecution, that pardon would then be at issue if there were an attempt to prosecute the President.

But Chris, as you pointed out, there's a very important exception to this. Pardons do not apply to state law offenses. And the gravest danger that the President faces, we know Cy Vance is actively investigating him.

When you look at the evidence, if I were the President, my single largest concern would be a state law prosecution. His self-pardon, if he tries one, can't touch that. So, there is a high expectation that the President is going to face serious state criminal jeopardy at some point in 2021.

CUOMO: He's raising a slush fund for himself with his "Save America" thing. It sounds like it's about the election, but when you read the emails that I get, ad nauseam. He can use the money pretty much for anything he wants in terms of that cause.

Biden said he doesn't think Trump should be investigated. On an ethical level, is it a better play for Biden to say, "No, just get rid of this guy. The longer he's in the light, the longer he's a negative influence. Just leave him alone, let him go," ethically?

EISEN: No. The President-Elect has indicated that these kinds of questions will be left, as they always have been, in American history, Chris, to the professional prosecutors, to the Justice Department, to the Attorney General. That's the rule of law.

[21:45:00]

Frankly, from a - so from an ethical perspective, the President should not do that. That raises this issue that we've seen in the era of the Trump - of Trump - of the Oval Office criminalizing political opponents.

Let the pros do it, and even better, the state is. The State of New York is looking at it. That is miles away from the Oval Office. No allegation of politicizing the criminal process. Let the rule of law work.

CUOMO: Well I'm happy that you spoke about the issue of why Trump may do certain pardons because CNN can now report new information that there are discussions ongoing in the White House about President Trump pardoning Michael Flynn.

Can he do it? Yes, what will be the issue? Was Michael Flynn quiet about anything that could have been damaging to the President, waiting for a pardon? Now, Norm, easy to say, easy to argue and on exam, tough to prove.

EISEN: Chris, it is not easy to prove. We are very fortunate that we have one of the great jurists in America, Judge Emmet Sullivan, who is scrutinizing DoJ's handling of the Michael Flynn case. And he's fought - fought up to the DC Circuit, fought for his right to do that.

The truth has a way of coming out. And if there is some kind of a dirty deal with Michael Flynn that, is going to come out, and could well expose President Trump to federal or state prosecution, if there are state prosecutors, who have jurisdiction over that. So, the saga will continue.

President-Elect Biden is wise not to get in the middle of it. Let the federal and state pros sort this out. That is the rule of law in America, Chris.

CUOMO: Right. And while I want to leave the style and the culture behind, the precedent of being fair must always be present, which is I don't know that Michael Flynn did anything wrong. I don't know that he made any deal with Trump. I've never seen any proof of that. I'm just saying it's something that will be looked at.

Norm Eisen, thank you very much for laying out the law and the contingencies. The best for Thanksgiving to you and your family.

EISEN: Happy Thanksgiving, Chris, to you and yours.

CUOMO: Thank you.

All right, we all got to get on the same page, OK? The Dow, the stock market, crossing 30,000 for the first time, great. Why? I don't know. Trump takes credit for it. Maybe it was the Biden transition. Who cares?

Millions of Americans are hungry. "Food anxiety! PC!" Nonsense! Hungry or afraid of going hungry, sometime in the future. Very few of you own stock. That's not the metric for your safety and your family. How do we get food on the table? I know you care. I know that you haven't heard about it enough.

I have a father of two joining us. He had a good job. He had a good living. And in a moment things changed for the worse, and he had to learn how to survive.

Let's not look away from the need. Let's look at the people living it, see the dignity in helping one another, and figure out just how bad the situation is, next.

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[21:50:00]

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CUOMO: Food bank lines are all over the country, OK? Cars in many places are lining up for miles, people waiting five hours. For them, Thanksgiving is going to suck. And our food pantries are overwhelmed. People can't volunteer. They can't get out, and help people the way they usually do.

According to Feeding America, the largest hunger relief organization in the U.S., 50 million Americans have faced hunger this year, 50 million.

It's hurting the most vulnerable, but also forcing a lot of people, who never understood this before, to reckon with the new reality, lining up for a food bank, asking for help.

That's why I want to bring in Stephen Reifenstein. He is a resident of Orange, California. He's living the new reality. He had a job. Times got tough, about a year ago, and he's been having to find ways to help his family.

Stephen, I only have a little bit of time. I just want to hear from you.

STEPHEN REIFENSTEIN, OUT OF WORK SINCE APRIL DUE TO PANDEMIC, RECEIVED ASSISTANCE FROM LOCAL FOOD DISTRIBUTIONS: Right.

CUOMO: I don't want to - I don't need to interview you. Tell people what you learned about, from your experience, why they may well see a lot of themselves in you, and what the reality is at these food banks, and what people should know about how to get help. All you, go ahead.

REIFENSTEIN: The ultimate reality is that if you're in a situation similar to me, then there are food banks, and there are sources out there, there are so many things I didn't know were available.

And Second Harvest Food Bank of Orange County has helped me. And I know that there's something like that in your county, your state, all across the country, where people want to help.

I also volunteered for them, as a way of giving back to - for them to - they were giving us food, my family, food. So I thought, "Hey, might as well volunteer," and that was a drive-through pop-up, but that ended a few months ago because COVID restrictions continued so.

CUOMO: But if people say they're ashamed, Stephen? "I can't."

REIFENSTEIN: Yes.

CUOMO: "I'm not one of these people. That's just for the homeless."

REIFENSTEIN: Don't be. Just reach your hand out, and you will be provided. They will provide what you - the food that you need to get you through a week's full meals. The ingredients are there, the produce, the pasta, the sauces, the protein. You will get there.

I don't have any shame anymore, because I couldn't. So, the pride has been put on a shelf. But I actually am even more prideful now because of the help that I'm giving back with them, and supporting the group.

CUOMO: Explain that. What did you learn about your situation, how did you go from "Why me" to "Help them?"

[21:55:00]

REIFENSTEIN: I was out there. I saw an ad for food. And I don't know. Initially, I just thought, "Is there a way I can volunteer too, to make me feel better about receiving this food," which may have been my pride there.

And so, I reached out, I volunteered, right away, and then I started talking to the people that run the company, the CEO, the other people that are out on-site, taking pictures, and running the - running the volunteer crews, and they were amazing.

And the things they said about the people that were receiving the food really resonated, the people that put a sign up in a car door that says "Thank you" on it, because they had their mask on, and they couldn't roll their window down. That was amazing. That was one of the best.

CUOMO: There are a lot of Reifensteins. They probably don't have his cooler name. But there are a lot of families like yours--

REIFENSTEIN: Yes.

CUOMO: --around this country, six-figure job, gone, wife working, gone, two kids, mortgage, car payment. I know you're worried. I know times are tough. I'm glad that there are places for you to get help.

And I'm glad that you're still fighting for your own future, and I hope things get better soon. And you are a great lesson that everybody has got something to be thankful for, even when times are hard. I wish you and the family the best.

REIFENSTEIN: Thank you, Chris. Happy Thanksgiving!

CUOMO: To you as well. I'm going to tweet out information about how you can help. We'll be right back.

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