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Sources: White House Discussing Potential Michael Flynn Pardon; Biden Rules Out Urging Justice Department Probe of Trump; Meghan Markle Reveals She had a Miscarriage in July. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired November 25, 2020 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[07:30:00]

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): But this is who Donald Trump is, it's who he was on the way into the presidency, it will exactly who he is on his last days of the presidency.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You don't dispute that, it's the absolute power and authority to pardon though, do you?

SCHIFF: Well, it's not absolute. You know, with respect to Michael Flynn, he may have the power to provide a pardon, assuming that it's not on the basis of some illicit quid pro quo. But nonetheless, he can't pardon himself in my view without it with a legal effect.

He can try, but I don't think it would hold up in court if ultimately there was a case brought against him. And there are other limitations on what he can do with the pardon power. But it is very broad and subject to abuse as he has demonstrated.

BERMAN: I want to play some sound from President-elect Joe Biden from an interview last night where he's asked about when President Trump will be former President Trump. And what then President Biden will do or advise his Justice Department to do in regards to Donald Trump. So listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT, UNITED STATES: I will not do what this president does and use the Justice Department as my vehicle to insist that something happened. There are a number of investigations that I have read about that are at a state level, there's nothing at all I can or cannot do about that. But I'm focused on getting the American public back in a place where they have some certainty, some surety, some knowledge that they can make it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: How do you feel about that, Mr. Chairman? Do you think or what federal investigations do you think should or shouldn't continue involving President Trump? SCHIFF: Well, I think that the president-elect is saying exactly what

he should, which is number one, he's not going to be like Donald Trump. He's not going to use the Justice Department to persecute his enemies, to make up things about his enemies, to suggest illegality by his enemies. But number two, he's -- I think communicating, he's not going to be involved in those decisions, he's going to leave that to the career professionals at the Justice Department.

He will restore the independence of the Justice Department that it enjoyed since Watergate as a result of Watergate reforms and norms that were put in place. But he's also saying, look, I can't speak to the priorities of others like the state of New York or the County District Attorney's Office in New York. I can tell you my priority is to get our people back on their feet to help feed families, to help end this pandemic. So I think he's spot-on with his message, both about the Justice Department and about his priorities.

BERMAN: What do you think? Do you think there should be federal investigations of Donald Trump once he leaves office?

SCHIFF: I think that the Justice Department will have to look at those issues on a case-by-case basis. Look at the severity of any allegation, but also the importance of the country in terms of healing and moving forward. I don't envy the difficulty of those decisions, but I don't think you can speak with great generality about it. I think it will have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

BERMAN: So, sometime in the next 55 or 56 days, there will be an open Senate seat in the state of California because Kamala Harris, who is the vice president-elect will become vice president. So if California Governor Gavin Newsom calls you, the phone rings, you pick up and Governor Newsom says, Congressman Schiff, I would like you to be senator, what's your answer?

SCHIFF: My answer -- well, let me just say that you would be hard- pressed to find any member of the house who wouldn't be happy to get that call and doesn't view themselves when they look in the mirror as a potential senator. Look, I think the governor has got a lot of very difficult choices ahead of him. And this is one of them. I don't envy it sincerely because of the pressure he's under. I don't want to add to that in any way, and I'm confident he'll make a great decision.

BERMAN: But was that a -- the first part was a yes, I'm like all or many of the members of Congress who look at themselves as possible senators, you wouldn't say no.

SCHIFF: That was a diplomatic avoidance of your question.

BERMAN: OK, thank you for clearing that up. Hey, listen --

SCHIFF: Maybe not a very successful one, but an attempt, anyway.

BERMAN: You have done a lot of thinking on the constitution, and you certainly had to during the impeachment process when you were the lead manager there. And having to do with how the constitution wrote about impeachment. I'm now curious about how the constitution deals with elections and

the electoral college and the whole process because one thing that's clear is the founders didn't anticipate anything like what we have now. Just the system is so much different than they wrote about.

There's no constitutional requirement for elections at all for a president. So given what we have just seen with a sitting president trying to overturn democratic results in some states, what reforms need to happen?

[07:35:00]

I mean, what can we do so we don't have to depend on one state canvasser in Michigan to make sure that election results aren't thrown out?

SCHIFF: Well, it's a good question. I think a few things really lead to my number one. We need a clear standard for ascertainment so that you don't have some relatively unknown, obscure official at the General Services Agency, GSA, making that decision about whether a transition can go forward.

And I also think that, you know, as we studied all the potential contingencies going into the election, we discovered that the Electoral College Act, which interprets and implements some of those processes is really poorly written --

BERMAN: Yes --

SCHIFF: And very confusing. And so there, I think needs to be a lot of thought to rewriting that law. But one kind of overriding consideration, John, and this is similar to what you raised in terms of the impeachment. Yes, there are difficulties, ambiguities, problems in the constitutional language on this subject, but even the best language doesn't protect us, whether it's about an impeachment or the electoral college.

If the people implementing that language don't have the spirit in which it was written, and here if, you know, if GOP electors were going to ignore their legal and constitutional duty and refuse to certify an election where there's no doubt about the outcome, merely because they're asked by the president on the basis of party, then the system isn't going to work.

There are always going to be ways to work around what the law says if people are not acting in good faith.

BERMAN: Yes --

SCHIFF: And so that, I think is a broader challenge these days.

BERMAN: Mr. Chairman, thanks so much for being with us. We do appreciate your time and your attempts at diplomacy. Thank you.

SCHIFF: Thank you, John. BERMAN: So a very personal revelation this morning from Meghan

Markle; the Duchess of Sussex. Her story of loss and the struggles felt by so many this year.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:40:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Developing this morning, Meghan Markle; the Duchess of Sussex, revealing for the first time that she suffered a miscarriage this Summer. In a new op-ed in "The New York Times", Markle says it happened while she was with her son, Archie. Markle writes, "after changing his diaper, I felt a sharp cramp.

I dropped to the floor with him in my arms, humming a lullaby to keep us both calm, the cheerful tune, a stark contrast to my sense that something was not right. I knew as I clutched my firstborn child that I was losing my second." CNN's Max Foster is live in London with more. Max, what's the reaction there?

MAX FOSTER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's a very powerful read. It's quite difficult to read in places. It's so honest. And it's actually a very broad debate as well that she opens out to. But it really resonates when you read about her in hospital with her husband, Prince Harry.

She describes him as heartbroken, trying to think what she can ask him, and she simply says, are you OK? And she realizes that's the first step, the only step, really, in the healing process you can take initially. And she says she learned that from her experience last year where she was asked the same question during her Africa tour that I was on. Let's just listen to what she said there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGHAN MARKLE, DUCHESS OF SUSSEX: You add this on top of just trying to be a new mom or trying to be a newlywed, it's -- yes -- well, I guess, and also thank you for asking because not many people have asked if I'm OK. But it's a very real thing to be going through behind the scenes.

FOSTER: And the answer is, would it be fair to say, not really, OK, as in, it's really been a struggle?

MARKLE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: I think there were times she was quite taken aback by the question, and also her reaction to it. But she was also quite heartened by the response because it really resonated, particularly with mums, she said.

So now she's trying to say to people who have experienced miscarriages, talk about it because it can be a very lonely, grieving process if you don't talk about it. She writes, "we've learned that when people ask how any of us are doing and when they really listen to the answer with an open heart and mind, the load of grief often becomes lighter for all of us and being invited to share our pain together, we take the first step towards healing", Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: It helps so much for someone as high-profile, as seemingly having it all as Meghan Markle to talk about this publicly. It helps everyone who is suffering in silence. Do you think that something like this op-ed would have been possible had she stayed in the royal family?

FOSTER: Meghan wanted to express her opinion. She wanted to be herself. That's why she left that senior royal role. And there are restrictions placed on that. I don't think the royal family would have denied her, her will, really, to speak so openly about something so personally.

It's not tradition, of course, Diana was the only person who really came close to ever doing that. It's not really expected of members of the royal family. But I don't think they would have denied that. She does go on to talk about Black Lives Matter and some political issues, which have also created a sense of loneliness.

So, we should all be going out ahead of Thanksgiving and asking people if they're OK. She wouldn't have been able to talk about some of those more political issues, I think in her senior role, which is why she left it, but now she's able to speak more freely.

I did hear from a royal source today saying that there's understandable sadness in the family. But we've also just heard from Charles Spencer as well, Harry's uncle. He said, "I can't imagine the agony". You get a sense that they weren't necessarily aware of this story, but you know, they're not saying much more than what we've heard about that so far.

[07:45:00]

CAMEROTA: Max, thank you, thank you for all of the reporting from there and the reaction to this. Really interesting, John, I mean, just, you know, obviously, it is sort of a new experience for women to come forward and publicly talk about what has been a taboo subject for a long time with miscarriage. And you know, I mean, as somebody who has been somewhat public about struggles with fertility, it is so helpful when someone as public as Meghan Markle talks about it. It lifts everybody's kind of silent burden somehow.

BERMAN: It makes a huge difference. You know, I just think she is trying to make a difference, even beyond that, though, that in and of itself is really I think helpful, but she's just talking about empathy. I think she's talking about feeling. And she's talking about being a good neighbor and a good person.

CAMEROTA: And, you know, again, so many people wonder, what can you say when you know that somebody is either going through infertility or has had a miscarriage? What can you say that isn't awkward? That's it! Are you OK? Those three simple words are really great advice I think from her. BERMAN: It's a wonderful piece, everyone should go read it, it's very

thoughtful. So more than 60 children, some just months old, have been held by U.S. Customs and Border Patrol for longer than three days during the last two months.

That's according to a federal court filing. One of the children was a 1-month-old infant. Democrats are demanding more information from the Trump administration in a letter to the Department of Homeland Security. The federal government is required to release children from immigration detention without delay to their patients, adult relatives or licensed programs within three days.

So forget what you thought about red states versus blue states. What really happened in the 2020 election? What have we now learned about the country and the electorate? Definitive answers, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:50:00]

BERMAN: The election is over, Joe Biden won, Donald Trump lost. Now the question is why? CNN's senior political writer and analyst Harry Enten has the answers. Harry, people may not realize this, but we talk a lot and one of the questions I've been asking you for more than three weeks is what just happened, Harry?

Explain to me what just happened because it's been so tumultuous I don't think we've taken a chance to step back and really think about what we learned in this election. You've come up with some answers. Let's start with some things that we thought were always true, that the swingiest of swing states included Ohio and Florida. What have we learned?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL WRITER & ANALYST: Yes, as it turns out, you look at that electoral map and Ohio and Florida went for now President Trump. They didn't pick the winner. This is the first time since 1960 that Florida and Ohio voted against the winner in the same election and, you know, the results there just weren't that close.

I mean, you know, Joe Biden lost Florida by more than 3 points, he lost Ohio by about 8 points. They are no longer in my mind the bellwethers that we thought they were, and that was true in the 2018 midterms as well where the Democrats lost both gubernatorial races in those states.

BERMAN: And they did matter this time because Joe Biden was able to chart a somewhat new path. Explain.

ENTEN: Yes, you know, this is the first time since 1948 that both Georgia and Arizona voted for the Democratic candidate. You know, there was this whole thought going into the election, would Joe Biden be able to sort of -- is it the Midwest? Is it the sunbelt?

Well, it turns out it was a little bit of both. But the sunbelt path that Democrats have been wanting to go after for years, winning in those Sunbelt areas, winning those suburbs, winning those people who might have migrated down there, that's certainly something open to Democratic candidates in the future as Joe Biden proved in this particular election.

BERMAN: And in the Rustbelt, the so-called blue wall, Joe Biden did win, he swept the three states that Donald Trump won last time, but he did it in a vastly different way than Democrats have done it before.

ENTEN: Yes, you know, there was this whole thought of nominating Joe Biden, OK, he's going to win back some of those voters who went for Barack Obama in 2012, and then went for Donald Trump in 2016. That's not, in fact, what happened.

This -- it's a little detailed here, but it really sort of gets at it. Look at the counties across those three states, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, where Clinton actually did better than Obama in 2012. That is where Joe Biden gained the vast majority of his votes on the margin. Over 320,000 votes gained against Trump relative to Hillary Clinton.

Now, look at those counties where Clinton did worse than Obama in 2012, Biden gained just 12,000 votes across those three states. So really what we saw in those Rustbelt areas was that Joe Biden gained in the suburbs, just like Hillary Clinton did, and that's how he won. He didn't win back those old Obama-Trump voters, he was just able to sort of expand upon the advantages that Hillary Clinton built in 2016.

BERMAN: As more results have come in from around the country, on election night, we saw that Donald Trump was able to win Florida in a different way for Republicans doing very well with Hispanic voters, not just Cubans, it turns out three weeks later it wasn't just Florida where Donald Trump did well with Hispanics.

ENTEN: Yes, you know, there was this whole idea -- oh, it's just, you know, Cubans in the southeast part of Florida, no. If you look at Hispanic majority, counties and municipalities throughout the country, what you see is, look, Joe Biden won all these places from California to Massachusetts, New Jersey, Arizona, Texas.

Joe Biden still won them, but look at the margin differences. For instance, look at your home state, Massachusetts, Lawrence, Massachusetts, look at that, Joe Biden won that municipality by 48 points, but that's well down from Hillary Clinton's margin in 2016, 67 points.

So, you just saw that although Joe Biden won Hispanic voters, he didn't do anywhere near as well as Hillary Clinton did back in 2016.

BERMAN: Yes, what about the drive for the base, what have we learned there?

ENTEN: Yes, I think this is really interesting. You know, there is this whole thing -- you know, Donald Trump has this base you won't be able to penetrate it.

[07:55:00] True, Donald Trump actually won Republicans more in 2020 than he did in 2016, but Joe Biden won Democrats more than Hillary Clinton did in 2016, and most importantly, Donald Trump alienated the middle of the electorate, Joe Biden won independents while Donald Trump won them in 2016. By the largest margin, both independents and Democrats went for Joe Biden than any Democrats since exit polls started back in 1972.

BERMAN: So the popular vote margin is pretty big, Harry.

ENTEN: Yes, you know, this I think is really interesting. You know, we talk about the electoral college, but look, the popular vote for the first time since 1828, one party has won more votes nationally in seven out of eight elections. So, Republicans although they're very competitive because of the way our institutions are structured, and how we vote for them, Democrats clearly have a majority nationwide -- of course, I'll point out all the last eight popular vote elections were decided by 8.5 points or less.

BERMAN: The shifting coalitions that we're seeing, and I have to let you go here, Harry, so this has to be quick, which party has more room for growth? Are the Democrats happier that they're doing better in the suburbs or are the Republicans happier they might be doing better with working class and Hispanic voters?

ENTEN: I think, you know, the truth is they always say, oh, who has the next big majority. Look, we are a 50-50 nation, I don't think either party has a real advantage going forward. We're just going to have to see and watch what happens.

BERMAN: Harry Enten, thank you for answering some of the questions that have been nagging at me for the last three weeks. I really appreciate it.

ENTEN: Happy Thanksgiving, John.

BERMAN: You, too, Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: More than 2,100 deaths reported in the United States yesterday from coronavirus. So many cities and states again increasing restrictions on businesses to try to turn it around. CNN has reporters coast to coast.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York. A new study from Fairfax County public schools, Virginia's largest school district which remains fully virtual shows a significant decline in academic achievement, comparing last year when classes were in-person to today, middle and high school students receiving Fs increased by 83 percent. Younger students appear to struggle more as do those for whom English is a second language and students with disabilities.

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Dan Simon. Amid a surge of cases in Nevada, the governor has issued a new set of restrictions that could have a big impact on the state's economy. But Governor Steve Sisolak says they are needed to help slow the spread of the virus. Among the restrictions, most public recreational facilities including casinos must reduce capacity from 50 percent to 25 percent. That also includes gyms, restaurants and bars. Private gatherings now restricted to no more than ten people and no more than two separate households.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Brynn Gingras in east Rutherford, New Jersey where the Meadowlands YMCA filled the need for food for more than 500 cars on Tuesday. People who lost their jobs, people who can't pay their bills, people who need help just feeding their families.

Now, we've met families who have waited in line for more than five hours to get the meals, others will have to visit another food bank later in the week we're told. The need not only for Americans, but for nonprofits as well. The Meadowlands YMCA says they could be just a few months away from shutting down the service to their community if they don't sustain donations or get help from the federal government.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: Our thanks to all of our reporters there. We want to take some time now to remember some of the nearly 260,000 Americans lost to coronavirus. Sally Fisher's son remembers the Minneapolis woman as a loving mother, wife, great-grandmother of four and a friend to all. He tells our local affiliate that she was someone you could turn to if you needed a place to stay or a warm meal or a cup of coffee or just someone to listen. She was 72 years old.

Roman Pena was a pediatric intensive care specialist at several hospitals in Palm Beach County, Florida. Colleagues called him a good friend and a mentor to many younger physicians. One said he was instrumental in advancing pediatric care for the children of Palm Beach County. Our thoughts are with all of their families. And NEW DAY continues right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The safest thing to do this Thanksgiving is not travel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's potentially the mother of all super-spreader events.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is again the time for us to really hunker down. Do not gather indoors with anyone who is not in your immediate household right now.

BIDEN: America is back. We're at the head of the table once again. America is going to re-assert its role in the world.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the White House has signed off on Joe Biden getting that president's daily briefing. He does expect to start potentially as soon as today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: America at its best, still has a greater ability than any other country on earth to bring others together to meet the challenges of our time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: And good morning, everyone, welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. And Thanksgiving will look different this year, many Americans will celebrate with loved ones virtually, but millions are on the move today, ignoring CDC guidance to stay home in the throes of a raging pandemic. Overnight, the United States reported its deadliest day in more than six months.