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FDA Commissioner Stephen Hahn to Meet at White House Today; Trump Continues Filing Lawsuits; President Trump and Vice President Pence Plan Georgia Events. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 01, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:25]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Welcome back, I'm Brianna Keilar and we have some breaking news this hour, a key independent panel inside the CDC is voting today on vaccine protocols, specifically they will determine who will be first in line when these vaccines are approved for use.

So here's what the members of the CDC advisory panel told CNN about this decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE ROMERO, CHAIR, CDC ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON IMMUNIZATION PRACTICES: Our decisions or (ph) deciding which are the priority groups are based on current knowledge and current information about the pandemic, the epidemiology, the persons most affected by this pandemic.

It seems pretty clear that the top group of individuals will be health care providers. Today, we will continue to look at that data, make that recommendation if appropriate, that the vaccine should be delivered to health care providers and to those individuals living in long-term care (ph) facilities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now, there are two vaccine makers that are asking the FDA to authorize use of their vaccines, but that decision at this point is still more than a week away.

Here's why it's so important though. On Monday, the United States reported more than 157,000 new cases to close out the month of November. Nearly one third of all U.S. cases since the beginning of the pandemic came just in the last month.

And the United States has set a new record for hospitalizations, more than 96,000, these numbers doubling since the beginning of November, tripling since the beginning of October. Joining me now, we have CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth

Cohen. And you know, take us, Elizabeth, through what they're considering right now and does the panel's recommendation become the mandate from the CDC?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So, Brianna, we just heard from Dr. Romero, who is the head of the CDC advisory panel, that these are the two groups that we think are going to be first in line, that's what's going to be decided just in a matter of hours.

So let's take a look at those two groups. It appears that this advisory committee is going to vote that health care workers and residents of nursing homes and other long-term care facilities should be first in line. That would be followed by other folks who are considered at high risk, so elderly who are not in nursing homes, people with underlying medical conditions, and essential workers such as police officers and firefighters.

Now, it's important to note, this is just a recommendation from the CDC advisory panel. States can do whatever they want, they can put whoever they want at the front of the line. But as a matter of practicality, states do typically follow what the CDC panel recommends -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, Elizabeth, thank you so much for explaining that to us.

The head of the FDA, Dr. Stephen Hahn, making an unusual appearance at the White House today, Chief of Staff Mark Meadows calling him there to explain why the agency hasn't moved faster to approve Pfizer's coronavirus vaccine.

I want to bring in CNN White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins as well as CNN political correspondent Sara Murray to talk with us about this.

I mean, Kaitlan, why was the White House insisting this meeting be in person and what can you tell us about this conversation?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they did insist that it happen in person because we're told that the commissioner, Stephen Hahn, actually asked if they could do it over the phone and was told no, that they wanted him there in person to meet with Mark Meadows today.

And of course, this comes amid this backdrop of our reporting that shows the president has demanded to know why that Pfizer vaccine, which they applied for emergency use on November 20th, has not been approved yet.

And when they applied, Brianna, we knew it was going to take some time because of course you saw what was happening today, we know that the advisory panel is not set -- an outside advisory panel is not set to meet until December the 10th.

So these things take time if you talk to people at the FDA who explained this, but that of course has not been sufficient for President Trump, who has long held this belief that scientists at the FDA are working slowly to thwart him politically -- it was a claim he made before the election, it's one he has made since then, that the FDA has denied.

And so clearly the FDA thought this was going to be a tense meeting because they were putting out a statement last night to "Axios" from Commissioner Hahn saying that it's not -- he's not the one who makes this decision, it's the career scientists who are looking at the data, going through it before they make the decision about whether or not one of these vaccines can be used on an emergency basis, which is what would happen before that full approval would be granted.

And so of course, you know, the White House doesn't seem to have a lot of options here because it's not like they can be unhappy with the FDA commissioner and fire him with six weeks left to go in the administration. Many people do not think that would be a wise decision though it is one they could take.

But also if they get the advisory panel to move up their meeting from December 10th, then they open themselves to these accusations of putting politics into this process of making a decision about a vaccine that of course some polls have shown that some Americans are already wary of before this has even happened.

[14:05:12]

KEILAR: Yes. And, Sara, to that point, it makes sense that the head of the FDA might want this to be a phone call because he wants Americans to be invested and to know that safety is coming first in getting this -- albeit rapidly -- to the American people, whereas the president has a pattern of really not following that, he has a pattern of putting politics first.

So how concerned is the FDA about a perception problem here?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, I think that they are very concerned and they're aware of the reality they're living in. You know, they look at the American public, they look at this vaccine skepticism we've seen, and they look at this sort of political veneer that's been playing out, especially from the White House and from President Trump.

And I think that's why we've seen Dr. Hahn and others at the FDA be so public in saying, look, we are going to go to our advisory committee, we are going to make this data public, we are going to let these, you know, meetings be broadcast essentially publicly, these aren't going to be secret meetings, people are going to know what's going on, and then we're going to listen to those recommendations.

It's also worth noting that those top career scientists that Kaitlan was just talking about, some of them have said they would resign if the president tried to intervene in this process and somehow force through some kind of authorization before they had evaluated it for safety and for effectiveness. Now, the other thing that the FDA is saying is that they do have to go

through this sort of line by line. They can't just take what Moderna is saying, what Pfizer is saying at face value, they actually have to go through the data of these clinical trials and make sure that what the companies are saying about the efficacy rates and so on is actually true and actually holds up, that they're being manufactured safely.

And all that takes time. You know, in a call with governors just yesterday, Dr. Hahn told governors, usually this is a process that could take upwards of four months, and they're trying to condense it down into essentially weeks. And he insisted that they're moving as fast as possible -- obviously though not fast enough for the president.

KEILAR: Sara Murray, thank you so much. Kaitlan Collins, thank you to you as well.

I want to bring in CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger to talk more about this, and CNN medical analyst Dr. Seema Yasmin.

The FDA right now is under so much pressure, Gloria, we're seeing that playing out, FDA chief being called to the White House. And the president of course has been bragging about how he is the one responsible for the good vaccine news. Is this a win that he can claim?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I certainly think that the president gets some credit for pushing this -- Operation Warp Speed as it's called. I think the scientists get the credit for doing the work on this.

And the worst thing the president could do right now is to push this through to the point where the scientists come to loggerheads with him and say, look, we're not ready to approve. Because then what happens down the line is that the public doesn't have any feeling that this is actually safe, because they're going to feel like, well, this was pushed way too quickly -- and you already have a lot of the public believing that's the case.

The bottom line here is, the president wants to be able to take credit for something when it has to do with coronavirus. The public believes that he mishandled it by overwhelming margins. He said it would disappear, it did not. He needs to be the hero of his own story and so this vaccine -- if he can point to it and say, that's me, as he said at a press conference over Thanksgiving, he said, the vaccines were totally me. Not Joe Biden, me, that's what he wants to be able to say.

KEILAR: Yes. I mean, this is -- it is an achievement, Dr. Yasmin, it's also a little bit like letting a bunch of people drown before you rescue other ones, you know? The government failed in other things that it was supposed to do here. But this whole vaccine process has been moving at record speeds. Tell us what the danger is if the FDA does try to move even faster now at the president's behest.

SEEMA YASMIN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Look, it's not vaccines that will end the pandemic, it's people choosing to get vaccinated, that's what's at stake here. We can have billions of vials of vaccine, but if upwards of 200 million Americans aren't rolling up their sleeves to get the shots, then we won't safely reach herd immunity and the pandemic will just continue for many more months.

Unfortunately, the FDA has lost its credibility in the face of scientists and the face of the public. Earlier this year, it rushed an emergency use authorization for hydroxychloroquine, then had to rescind it a couple of months later, saying that the drug could be harmful. It did the same really rushing the emergency use authorization for plasma as well, the FDA commissioner came under a lot of fire from scientists for that.

So we really have this gargantuan task, the FDA has this task, the CDC, the incoming Biden-Harris administration, of rebuilding public trust in science and in federal scientific agencies. That takes time, we don't have time. We're going to have to take drastic and radical measures to rebuild some of that trust, and in some cases, build those bridges that have been gone for so many years because of mistrust in medicine and the scientific establishment.

[14:10:20]

But I think it's so important to emphasize that the communication aspect of this is going to be key. We can have fridges and freezers full of vaccine, but if people aren't willing to get vaccinated -- as so many are saying in surveys, particularly black and Latinx populations -- we just won't reach herd immunity.

KEILAR: Yes, they need buy-in, there needs to be buy-in --

BORGER: Yes.

KEILAR: -- here.

YASMIN: Yes.

KEILAR: I want to listen to something that the former CDC director Tom Frieden said about this process earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM FRIEDEN, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: There may be production problems, there may be rumors, there may be people who don't want to take it even if you do have the vaccine. So this is probably, George, the singlemost complicated vaccination program in American history.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC ANCHOR: Even though it's happened so --

FRIEDEN: And I would expect that there are going to be some bumps in the road.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: All right, bumps in the road. We already know for instance, Dr. Yasmin, there's not going to be enough doses at first for the first group. So you know, what are these bumps that you're anticipating?

YASMIN: It could be everything from not being able to ramp up production as quickly as we'd like -- so maybe we build that public buy-in, we get people saying I want to get vaccinated, and then we just don't have the capacity to both produce, store and administer these vaccines.

Remember, that takes trained health care professionals, this isn't an inhaled vaccine, we're looking at candidates that need to be diluted into vials and then put into syringes. So all of that requires capacity as well as that public buy-in.

And of course, I don't think that any safety has been cut, any corners have been cut so far in the process of these clinical trials, but of course once you go from testing vaccines in about 40 or 50,000 people to administering it to hundreds of millions of people, you do start to see those really, really rare occurrences of side effects.

And we have to plan for those -- as rare as they might be, they could generate massive mistrust and really fuel the anti-vaccine movements. So we have to think ahead to some of those challenges, which are quite inevitable.

KEILAR: Gloria, you know, on the one hand because of the pandemic, we have the -- we're talking about the vaccines, the approach for public health, and then there's the economic front.

There's a bipartisan group of senators that just announced a $908 billion framework for a COVID relief bill. It's far short of the $2 trillion the Democrats wanted, but Democratic Senator Mark Warner said, quote, "It would be stupidity on steroids if Congress left for Christmas without doing an interim package." Is this going to happen?

BORGER: Well, that's the big question, Brianna. Who can ever predict what Congress is going to do? But when you talk about trust in institutions, whether it's the scientific community and the vaccine or whether it's Congress, an institution of government, people have lost complete faith in Congress.

And so I hope for the sake of the country and the sake of the members of Congress that they can figure out something to do because the public is in need, the public is desperate. Congress has been completely ineffective on this front, and I think there's some blame on both sides on this because you need to give a little to get some, and that didn't happen before the election.

Now for the Democrats, I think Joe Biden will be calling the shots to a great degree, and we'll have to see what he can agree to with Republicans -- depending on who controls the Senate for example, that's a big unknown.

But on the larger question here, it is that the -- people believe the institution of the presidency has been degraded. Lots of people don't believe in science any more, they don't believe in vaccines any more, they don't believe in the Congress any more, they don't believe in their government any more, they don't believe in people who work for the government any more.

And in order to change or fix that mindset, to get people to actually kind of believe in the people who can help us get out of this, somebody has to succeed. And that's what people want.

KEILAR: Yes, so they have some of that faith restored, which is so important --

BORGER: Exactly.

KEILAR: -- as they're looking for buy-in in all of these things.

BORGER: Exactly.

KEILAR: Gloria, Dr. Yasmin, thank you so much to both of you for discussing this with us.

Still ahead, the president planning to flout COVID restrictions once again this week when he heads to Georgia to rally voters for the Senate runoff elections.

[14:14:32]

Plus, we are going to roll the tape on Rudy Giuliani and the rest of the president's supposed crack legal team. One of them just called for a former election security official to be executed.

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KEILAR: Trump's election legal team is as bad as the New York Jets. Loss after ridiculous loss, week after week of the same platitudes about winning without ever really coming close.

Joe Namath (ph) is not walking through that door, not for the Jets, not for the Trump legal team. But Tony Soprano might. In an unusual twist Joe diGenova, one of the Trump campaign lawyers, said the Republican election security official who called the presidential election the most secure in history, should be whacked.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

JOE DIGENOVA, LAWYER, TRUMP CAMPAIGN (via telephone): Anybody who thinks that this election went well, like that idiot Krebs, who used to be the head of cyber-security --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh yes, the guy that was on "60 Minutes" last night.

DIGENOVA: -- that guy -- that guy is a class A moron, he should be drawn and quartered, taken out at dawn and shot.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KEILAR: That is the president's lawyer saying that Chris Krebs, who Trump fired for no other reason than doing his job well and telling the truth about it, it appears, should be executed. [14:20:00]

DiGenova, who is now backtracking, calling his language hyperbole, is just one member of Trump's crack legal team. Rudy Giuliani of course heads it up, he's under active FBI investigation.

Then there's Sidney Powell who got the boot for being too tin-foil-hat with her absurd conspiracies even though the president and Giuliani push many of the same ones, but she's still working to help the cause.

In a new Michigan lawsuit, she cites a witness who flagged a concern about the returns in Edison County, which would be concerning because, as the "Detroit Free Press" astutely points out, there is no Edison County in Michigan.

And then, there's Jenna Ellis.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNA ELLIS, TRUMP CAMPAIGN SENIOR LEGAL ADVISER: This is an elite strike force team that is working on behalf of the president and the campaign to make sure that our Constitution is protected. We are a nation of rules, not a nation of rulers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Ellis previously called Trump an "idiot," she called him "disgusting." "Not American," she said -- those are quotes. More recently, though, she's into posting fake Teddy Roosevelt quotes online -- and then when confronted about it, defending the post by saying the idea itself is true, so basically whatever.

TEXT: Donald J. Trump: I look forward to Mayor Giuliani spearheading the legal effort to defend OUR RIGHT to FREE and FAIR ELECTIONS! Rudy Giuliani, Joseph diGenova, Victoria Toensing, Sidney Powell, and Jenna Ellis, a truly great team, added to our other wonderful lawyers and representatives!

KEILAR: These are the people who all got the Twitter shoutout from President Trump as the best legal team there is. They're the Oompa Loompas in Donald Trump's conspiracy theory factory, and Trump is shelling out candy-coated BS to anyone willing to take a bite, taking the country on a wild ride a la Willy Wonka, who once said, quote, "Come with me and you'll be-- in a world of pure imagination-- we'll begin with a spin-- traveling in the world of my creation-- what we'll see will defy explanation."

Some Republicans though, they aren't falling for Trump's shiny ticket. Georgia and Arizona's Republican governors certified their elections. "So shines a good deed in a weary world," Willy Wonka said.

But President Trump attacked the governors, even though Brian Kemp of Georgia explained the law forbids him from interfering in elections, and Doug Ducey of Arizona defended his state's election system against the president's attacks, saying that he too is following the law and if the president has a legitimate challenge, now's the time. There was one particular moment that really speaks volumes, and it

happened as Ducey was certifying the election yesterday.

That was a "Hail to the Chief" ringtone, kind of hard to hear but that's what that was. And who was on the other end of it? Ducey explained it earlier this year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. DOUG DUCEY (R-AZ): We've had so much outreach personally from both the president and the vice president, that I had to change the ringtone on my phone, and it rings "Hail to the Chief" because I didn't want to miss another phone call directly from the White House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: That was a call from the White House, and Ducey literally muted it as he certified the will of the voters, signing the papers that affirm Biden's legitimate win. He sent the everlasting fact- stopper to voicemail.

[14:23:11]

And next, COVID cases are up in Georgia, emergency restrictions have been extended there. That's not stopping the president and vice president from holding rallies there this week. We're going to take you there live, and we're going to talk about the record-breaking cash that is being spent on the Senate runoff elections there, now more than $300 million.

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KEILAR: President Trump is attacking yet again Georgia's Republican governor on Twitter today. He is fuming that Governor Brian Kemp won't overturn Joe Biden's victory in the Peach State even though it would be unlawful to do that.

So it's going to be interesting when the president heads to Georgia on Saturday as he tries to whip up support for incumbent Republican senators Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue. Vice President Pence will head there on Friday. Georgia's January runoffs are going to decide control of the Senate, if it's going to be Democrats or Republicans.

CNN's Ryan Young is joining me now from Atlanta. And Ryan, the governor just extended COVID restrictions in the state, the president and the vice president though are still planning to hold large events, right?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely. You know, Georgia's sort of the center of the universe when it comes to politics right now, especially in the United States.

And you think about this in terms of Friday, Vice President Pence will be here, there'll be a Defend the Majority rally that's going to be held in Savannah, both Senate candidates will be there with him as well. Then he'll travel over to the CDC here in Atlanta to have a conversation about the vaccine. Of course he was just here a few weeks ago as well.

And on Saturday, President Trump is expected to be here to have another rally. And you think about this, right now where the cases are sitting, we're talking about over 450,000 positive coronavirus cases in the state, it puts this Georgia around number six in terms of all the cases in this country. So all that's happening with major rallies planned over the next few days -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, that seems like a recipe for disaster heading in there for big rallies.

And you know, it's really wild when you look at the ad spending numbers here, we're talking about $30 million for the two runoffs. Tell us how that money, where it's coming from.

YOUNG: Well you think about this, in terms of ads that are being placed, if you live in this state and you turn on your television, you cannot get through a commercial break without being hit by double ads sometimes, two, three, four ads.

[14:30:06]