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Trump's Post-Election Delusion: I Probably "Worked Harder In The Last Three Weeks Than I've Ever Worked In My Life"; COVID-19 Data Tracker's Home Raided By Law Enforcement; "The Washington Post:" Trump Asks PA Speaker To Help Overturn Election. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 07, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: But it has opened the door to begin having some much needed conversations about African-Americans and healthcare that is long overdue. We hope these conversations will lead to saving lives not only due to COVID-19, but saving lives in the future."
Want to thank the Mayor, and we hope so, as well.
The news continues. Want to hand it over to Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME."
Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: At the end of the day, brother, it just comes down to a simple proposition. We got to care.
COOPER: Yes.
CUOMO: We got to care about one another. We got to care about each other enough to give each other the right information to remove the fear.
Families like you we're just talking to, that young man with this huge burden now with the loss of his sister, her family left behind, her kid left behind, do we care? Do people care?
And if we do, where is the proof of that? I mean, these are truly dark days, and it is supposed to be the time of year that we look for the best in one another so.
COOPER: Yes.
CUOMO: Got a long way to go, brother, but that story helps. It helps for people to see the pain.
COOPER: Yes.
CUOMO: See that it's real. Thank you, Anderson.
I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.
Today is a big day, Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941, the day that will live in infamy, if only it were the last day that would do such.
America finds herself, on this day, failing to fight off the pandemic. We're just failing. Everything keeps going worse because that's what happens when you don't fight back.
We have a record for hospitalizations. More than 102,000 of us are in the hospital. And that is bad news. You do not want to be in the hospital because of Coronavirus. Even in this country where we are amazing, at having people survive, the odds are against you.
And, look, Pearl Harbor stands alone as what it means in our history, but that was so pernicious because it was a sneak attack. That's not what we're dealing with now.
Our eyes have been wide open for months. COVID has been here almost a year. The infamy here is that Trump and Co. have all but ignored its advance for months, after the initial battles.
The proof of their perfidy, and I don't just say this because it's alliterative. Perfidy is the right word, perfidy. It means deceitfulness. They deceived. Unworthy because they broke the trust that they would be straight with us, and they put the common good before their own. That's their job.
But they didn't put the common good before their own. The proof? The shortcomings continue. Testing, I don't have to tell you. It's too hard to find still. It's too slow when accurate still. It's too often too inaccurate when not too slow.
The rapid test, what school will take the rapid test? They may give you a rapid test to keep things with a little bit of comfort, but if you want to go back to school, they're not going to take a rapid test. You want to go back to work? They're not going to take a rapid test.
So, what does that mean? Not only do we not have enough testing, we're not testing smartly enough still, especially in our schools. We're doing it in a way that reeks of not the best idea in our schools still. Why? Because we have all but surrendered to the sameness, on the federal level.
We just leave things as they are. That's why weeks, months have passed with those in power, fully aware that people all over this country, Brown, White, rich, not so much anymore, urban, suburban, ex-urban, rural, any way you want to slice us up, hungry, falling into poverty like never before since the Great Depression. Think about that!
And what have they done? They have watched most of all. What is behind the hold-up on relief, really? We're going to get after that tonight. The details about why it isn't happening.
But we already know the main problem, right? The GOP is just a bunch of Re-Trump-licans. They are waiting on the will, not of you, not of their constituents, one man, including, sadly, Dusty Johnson of South Dakota.
I gave him full invitation tonight, "Come on," with his Democrat brother. They're working together, trying to get things to a better place.
Just the mention that I would have to address the fact that Joe Biden won the election, and when is his Party going to stop resisting that, and he bailed out, what does that tell you?
What does that tell you? That he'd rather not come on, and make the case, for bringing relief, in a bipartisan way, to people who are starving. "I'd rather not do that than speak against Trump."
You are not speaking against Trump, Dusty. You'd be telling the truth. You have seen no proof that warrants any change in how this election came out, and you know it. And I'm not going to let you hide.
[21:05:00]
I let people sometimes decide not to come on this show. I believe it serves some greater good. I'll get them another time. I don't want to cause more trouble than it's worth. Not this time!
He is not your boss. He did not put you in office. Do your job. Do your job.
Trump has made it clear he's not going to do his own job. And it's not about me suggesting it. It's his own mouth, listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I thought we were going to easily win, and then maybe for the first time in a long time, I'd go take a nice little vacation for about two days and then we'd go back. And instead, I probably worked harder in the last three weeks than I've ever worked in my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: He's worked harder in the last three weeks than he's ever worked in his life. What's he been doing? Ignoring the damn pandemic, not pushing a deal, in any real way, for relief, and you know it.
What has he been doing? He's been focused on overturning the election despite numerous reports that even he knows there is no proof behind his poisonous talk. Just think about it! That's what he says he's been focusing on. And it's the hardest he's ever worked.
What else do you need to know that you were never his priority? Look at what he's doing right now, in the middle of a pandemic? Would you be doing this?
(VIDEO - PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP PLAYING GOLF)
CUOMO: People are waiting hours for food. The pandemic is at its worst. Has he ever golfed more than he has lately?
But, look, I don't focus on him the same way anymore. Why? He's the past. The future threat are the Re-Trump-licans. They remain in power and they refuse to do anything but his bidding. It's like Voldemort. "Don't say his name." Why? Because they're afraid
of that base. So, even though he lost, they still have to think of him first? Proof of my concept, 249 GOPers in the House and Senate, OK? Guess how many of them have acknowledged Biden won the race? 26 or 27, of 249!
"The Washington Post" just reached out to all 249, came back with two dozen of more than 200 willing to acknowledge the obvious. And, by the way, it's not like they say "No, comma, because, dot, dot, dot," there is no "Because." They have no proof.
34 days since the election, more than 40 court cases later, with judges saying "You've shown no proof of fraud. Don't come back" with prejudice they've said it, conservative, liberal judges alike.
Georgia just certified its results again, reaffirming Biden's victory. Third time!
Federal court in Michigan today threw out the latest Trump lawsuit. Multiple sources tell CNN the Trump legal effort may be coming to an end. Why? He can't get help. Rudy catching the "Rona" didn't help.
We wish Mr. Giuliani a quick recovery. I hope he's in the hospital just so he can get the best kind of care to get him out and better, as soon as possible. We know he's in Georgetown Hospital. I don't want to see him there. I don't want this for his family. I don't want this for anybody.
But, look, it's not a coincidence that this guy, like the rest of the Trumpers, openly disregarded the risks. He's often seen with no mask on. The Right is not going to talk about that. No, they only go after people who're trying to tell you the right message, not the wrong message.
"Overturn the election" tour, he's been showing up all over the place like this, who knows how many other people got infected, after he knew he was exposed to his son, Andrew, who I hope is well.
I do not wish this on anybody, OK?
The Arizona legislature had to shut down after Rudy exposed lawmakers there. It's a contract tracing nightmare.
Just think about, you know, you need a metaphor for the moment with Trump. 40 people in his direct orbit have caught COVID, including him. These are just some of them.
And the President keeps holding super-spreader events, rallies, indoor Christmas parties. And these people, around him, who I call the Re- Trump-licans, they haven't said a damn thing. The White House is a case cluster. Trump is basically a super-spreader of the virus he was supposed to help stop.
Do you remember the listed goals he came out to show you this, end of March? "With mitigation, only 100,000 to 250,000 deaths were projected. 250,000, oh! That's the worst case." We're already way past it. 283,000 dead, not that he cares. Not that
anybody cares. The numbers are like noise now, right? Nobody knows them the way we used to.
[21:10:00]
Did you know that COVID is now the leading cause of death in this country? You know the people who say to you, "Oh, you're going to shut down the whole country because of heart disease or diabetes, all these other bad things that are way worse?" COVID beats them all out this year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're all victims. Everybody here, all these thousands of people here tonight, they're all victims, every one of you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: "All victims." Remember that. Remember it. What is he a victim of? What has he been spending his time trying to do these last three weeks?
You know what he did? He's trying to get help. He's not offering help. He's trying to get it for himself. "The Washington Post" says he has twice contacted the Head of the Pennsylvania legislature to enlist their help in defying the will of the voters there.
To think the GOP was once the Party of huing to the Constitution, they now sit silent as the President all but ignores the Article II duty to faithfully execute the laws. Is that what he's doing? Does this look like faithful execution to you, brazenly trying to steal an election?
But in Trump World, they're all victims. You just heard him say, "You're all victims." Of what? They're all victims of him and of their surrender of code to self-preservation. That's what they are victims of. And that's why he was voted out.
The problem is he ain't gone. And there is a lot of damage he's trying to do before he exits, and we have to focus on the damage these Re- Trump-lican minions will attempt after that.
And it raises a question for us to start on tonight. What kind of chance does Biden have of making things any better? Let's bring in Dana Bash, and Paul Begala.
Good to have you both.
Paul, you've been to this circus before. You didn't come in like this. Nobody has ever come in, in this kind of situation. We didn't even have any history of wars to compare it to where some new group came in.
What does this look like for Biden when he actually takes over and you know you've got a GOP that is on Trump-pleasing mode?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's a great point, Chris.
In fact, Dr. Fauci and other experts are telling us that by the time we get to President-Elect Biden's Inauguration date, January 20th, the death toll which now is around 1,000, some days 2,000, could be significantly higher.
So, he's going to have to hit the ground running. And yet, this President has gummed up the transition in every way he can.
There is a reporting of "The New York Times" tonight that the Trump administration was offered a chance by Pfizer to buy extra doses of their vaccine, and they passed on it. So we may not have enough of a vaccine.
CUOMO: They say they never passed on it, by the way.
BEGALA: I'm glad to get the facts out there. I just read it right before we came on the air.
But it is remarkable. And President Biden, once he takes that oath, is going to have to turn to the Republicans, as well as the Democrats, on Capitol Hill, and say, "Good God, people are dying!"
This relief package that you talked about, Chris, state and local aid is going away, unemployment aid is going away. Mortgage assistance is going away. Small business assistance is going away. Student loan assistance is going away. All that is more needed now than ever and, yet, the Republicans are blocking it.
CUOMO: Why?
BEGALA: The House Democrats passed it months ago.
CUOMO: What do you think their best argument is?
BEGALA: For the Republicans?
CUOMO: Yes.
BEGALA: There is no excuse to let people's businesses and even their lives go under when you are sitting there drawing a government paycheck in the comfort of the United States Senate, like Mitch McConnell is.
CUOMO: Yes. But they say it's too much - they say "It's too much money, and let's do less now, bridge the situation, and we'll do more later."
BEGALA: When there was no crisis.
CUOMO: And the Democrats are trying to ask for like a new deal right now, you know, like you want everything in one deal. Just take what we need to get through this period. We'll do more later.
BEGALA: When there was no crisis and corporate profits were at a record high. The Republicans and Mr. Trump cut corporate taxes by $2.3 trillion,
and there was no crisis. No one was dying because corporate taxes were too high. Nobody's business was going under. In fact, corporate profits were at a record high.
So, this is not a "Republicans worried about the deficit." This is Republicans turning a blind eye to suffering, and their own people's suffering. They're suffering in Kentucky as bad as they're suffering anywhere.
CUOMO: Well that's - that's absolutely true.
BEGALA: I just think it's outrageous.
CUOMO: We're going to do more of this tonight. But I want to get Dana in here because I want to talk about the political realities.
You heard me up top. Dusty Johnson, good man, had him on the show before. I believe he takes to his constituents seriously. I had him and Dean Phillips coming on tonight, Dean Phillips, Democrat, Minnesota, Dusty Johnson, Dakota, Republican.
"Come on. Make your case. How are you going to make relief happen? What's holding it up? Let's get into the granular."
[21:15:00]
I bring up that we're going to have to talk about the fact that your Party seems a little locked in place about denying the outcome of the election, bails out. Bails out, Dana!
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm not surprised.
CUOMO: Would rather not talk relief than talk relief if he has to say something about Trump.
BASH: I am--
CUOMO: Why aren't we surprised?
BASH: Because they are scared of their own shadows when it comes to this issue.
And it is - you know, it wasn't even one thing, this Saturday, after the election when the networks called it. It wasn't even one thing a week after that. But here we are, a month after the election, with state after state, swing states, certifying, including Georgia today, certifying, again, the election for Joe Biden.
And, yet, they understand what they saw from the President, in Georgia, over the weekend, which is a cascade of lies, but a cascade of lies that his constituents are believing. And his constituents, as we've discussed so many times, are their constituents. And it is--
CUOMO: Is that a dog or a kid?
BASH: It's my puppy. Sorry about that. You know about dogs. If it was a kid, I wouldn't be talking to you right now. Let's be clear.
CUOMO: Finish your point. I got to go. Finish your point.
BASH: Yes. But she - no, but that's the reality. Let's see what happens a week from tomorrow because so many Republicans privately and publicly have said to me, as I'm sure to you that "Let's wait to see after the Electoral College makes this official."
Well that's going to be in a week. And let's see if they live up to that, or if there's going to be another kind of ghost phantom deadline that they're going to put out there because they don't have a choice because the President won't give it up.
CUOMO: Dana Bash, Paul Begala, thank you very much. Appreciate you. Be well.
BEGALA: Thanks, Chris.
BASH: Thank you.
CUOMO: All right, so how do we figure out who to be mad out and about what when it comes to relief in Washington, because we know it's outrageous, right? We know it's unacceptable, right? So, we got to get some clarity on what these lines actually are.
I'm not going to stop saying this. We were supposed to have two Members of Congress, one from each side of the aisle, who were going to try to make a case about how to do this. The Republican pulled out as soon as "You got to deal with the reality of this election" came up as something that we might discuss. What does that tell you?
But the quest for answers must go on. Although, I'll tell you that's a big piece to this damn puzzle. We have more insight into what is stopping relief, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: All right, let's talk facts, let's talk reality, OK? No politics for a second.
We're living a humanitarian disaster, OK? That's what it is by any metric. This is the richest nation on the planet. One in six or seven of us is worried about their next meal. Think about that! One in six or seven of us?
"Oh, but the stock market," listen, you can't eat stocks, all right? That is a discrete set of people in a discrete reality. Americans of all stripes are living the kind of suffering we thought was relegated to the black and white images of history.
Basic freedoms, freedom from want, freedom from fear, what happened to those? How can we just let people not have enough food all over this country, to lose their homes, lose their jobs?
Thanksgiving, Christmas, "I'm so thankful." Christmas, "I believe, I believe in better days. I believe in the optimism of a theology that teaches me to love mercy." But what are we doing?
We will keep telling you the numbers. Why? Because nobody does anything about them and they keep getting worse. 54 million without food, nothing happens.
Look at the faces. Look at the faces. These are the people, who are forced to wait hours for the charity of neighbors in most cases.
It's not inner city soup kitchen. Why do I say that? To stigmatize? No. To relieve the notion that is an "Other." It's not an "Other." It's part of us. It's the people you know. It could be you.
The number of people starving in the rural communities that grow our food is almost twice that of cities. It's everybody. And the "Why" matters. You know why? People are running out of work and running out of time.
More than 20 million of us needed help from the government, and even that may be off, why? The government systems that track unemployment have become overwhelmed due to "Backlogs in processing an historic volume of claims." We literally broke the system with need.
They have been watching their checks shrink as time drags on. And they know our leaders are aware. And even what they have may be gone in a matter of weeks. We don't know that something is going to replace it. This was never about safety versus the economy.
States that reopen too early, and those that maintain tighter restrictions, take a look. Look at the 10 states' highest unemployment, doesn't matter if they're Red or Blue. Most small businesses that closed, how are they ever going to come back? Where are they going to get the capital?
Too many listened and wanted to believe that we were rounding the corner. I told you then, and you know it now, Trump lied. "This will be over by April." Trump lied.
[21:25:00]
"Magically vanish during the summer. Disappear after the election. They won't even talk about it," they all lied to you because they thought it would work for them. And it is worse than ever, especially since November. And so is Trump. But I got to tell you, the real onus is no longer on that guy. He's never been in the driver's seat. It's Congress.
You, you step up whenever we ask. I tell you "These people need help. There is a - there is a page you can go. You can do it," you do it. You do it amazingly. You max people out. You go to the charity. You reach out. You send us stories. "I don't have much, but I'll give what I can."
Where is that in our leadership? Where is that in the people that we put there to do what we can't do? They knew that help was expiring. They watched key dates come and go, just like the rent check.
This is a reality too real for too many, especially with kids. The question is not going to be what does Santa bring? Will they be in a home for him to visit?
You call Congress to the carpet, one side pulls the rug under the other. That's what they do. They just pull the rug out from the other side. This delay is on both. However, the blame can't be equal that offends the facts.
McConnell has the most shame in his game, period! He sat on this situation and he knows it, and he did it for political reasons. 200,000 dead, not enough. 26 million going hungry, in September, not enough to do something.
He called any deal to provide relief a "Waste of time," without a blessing from the lame duck in the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I think the place to start is, are we actually making a law or are we just making a point? And I think the way you make a law for sure is you know you got a presidential signature.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: By the way, he discounted the deal that the White House put out. Why? Why would he undercut the White House he said he was waiting on? Re-Trump-licans! Re-Trump-licans!
How do we get a deal done that goes back to putting the people before the whims of the Donald? Especially when people like Congressman Dusty Johnson - I am not trying to beat down Dusty Johnson, OK? I've had him on the show. I know what he does. He has respect for doing the job.
But why would you back out tonight? Just because I said "We have to talk about the fact that your Party, only a couple of dozen of you have said that Biden won?" That's enough to have you abandon a discussion about relief?
Let's deal with what can be done in this environment. Congressman Dean Phillips, Democrat from Minnesota, part of a group pushing a bipartisan relief bill, respected.
Congressman, thank you for coming on PRIME TIME. REP. DEAN PHILLIPS (D-MN): Good to be with you, Chris.
CUOMO: And, again, I know you talk to Dusty. The offer stands, OK?
But you can't ignore what you guys are up against, in the Democratic Party, and what frankly, a lot of still Republicans are up against. If they don't - if they will leave rather than have to discuss the fact that Biden won the election, how do you expect to get a deal?
PHILLIPS: Well, Chris, that's why - actually that's why Dusty and I are both here. And I have listened to you tonight.
And I want to start by letting you know and everybody watching know that there are people here, in a place filled with actors and so little action, there are a group of us, Democrats and Republicans, Dusty is among them, that sit down together once a week, in a place that has institutionalized separation. And we make it our intention to get together, get to know each other, trust one another and try to rise to the occasion in times just like these.
Yes, I'm really frustrated with my Party, and I'm really frustrated with the other Party, and I'm really frustrated with the White House. And that's a perception that's shared by very many.
The Problem Solvers Caucus came out with a plan, as you know, Chris. First of all, the House voted on two bills since the CARES Act, Heroes 1 and Heroes 2. We have been doing the work.
Problem Solvers Caucus came up with a march to common ground. Dusty and I co-led that effort with our Co-Chairs Tom Reed and Josh Gottheimer. We came up with a plan. It was celebrated by House and - rank and file House members, rank and file senators, even the White House liked it. Of course it went nowhere.
CUOMO: Why?
PHILLIPS: And then nothing happened before the election.
Well, you know this place just as well as I do, Chris. Look, I was watching the election in 2016. I had a comfortable life. I owned a business, was very happy in Minneapolis.
I watched my daughter's reaction that night in 2016, and I woke up the next morning, I sat at the breakfast table, and I promised them I would do something. And a lot of us who won the elections in 2018 had the same reaction that night. We're here for the same reason, because we're sick of it.
And I can tell you, you know as well as I do that 12 million people who are going to lose their unemployment after the holidays after Christmas, do you think they really care about what Donald Trump is saying today?
[21:30:00]
Do you think the people whose small business is closing tomorrow, because they can't make ends meet, can't pay the rent, put their whole life savings into their business, do you think they really care about the stuff that so many are talking about on Twitter? No! They care about help. And to your point, that's what we are supposed to do.
I am stick of the inactivity. I don't know how long my career will be here. But darn it, I'm going to fall on the sword, and do my very best to get some help to people who deserve it, who need it because that is what this country is about.
CUOMO: What's the best answer of why the extraordinary need that has been taking place for months wasn't enough to move the needle?
PHILLIPS: Chris, I might be on my death bed someday and still be trying to understand why. This place does not function, the way most Americans would expect it to, the way that they deserve. America deserves its Congress to work.
CUOMO: But when they say--
PHILLIPS: I wish I could explain it. I--
CUOMO: But Dean, I hear about that as a culture. But let's get to more of the granular things.
I don't understand what the argument is for no more checks to people. Is it because they believe there is enough money in the support programs that will catch that need? Is it just about the price tag?
I mean, why no more checks for people when you know that they need it, not just because they're in poverty but they're that paycheck away from being in poverty?
PHILLIPS: Well, I think you'll have to ask Leader McConnell that specific question. But let me tell you this, Chris. There is actually more bipartisan support for stimulus checks because we know that consumption is the engine of the economy and money in--
CUOMO: Right.
PHILLIPS: --people's pockets, is the fuel. That is something that unifies Democrats and Republicans. That's why stimulus checks were in the first bill. The President actually supports stimulus checks, perhaps because his name was on them, of course.
I don't know if this bill that we're working on right now, this bipartisan, bicameral bill, will include them. Of course, the Senate is going to play a big role in determining if that's the case.
But would I like to personally see them? Of course. That's what people deserve because actually it will cost us less if we do that now than it will later.
CUOMO: Right.
PHILLIPS: And most of all, it's compassionate. And if we don't do it, Chris, geez, I just don't understand why we are unwilling, to your point, to help people in the worst crisis I have known in my lifetime, and I'm sure yours.
CUOMO: Well look, Joe Manchin says he can't get the stimulus payments to families done that it's a non-starter for people on the Right. Look, I would have loved to have talked to Dusty about it. I believe you that he meets. I believe that he wants better. I have never heard any bad stink on him.
But he made the decision not to come on tonight. It's not like we had an argument or something. I never even spoke to him. But how can I have a Republican on the show, and not even ask, "Hey, by the way, are you one of these guys that don't think Biden won?"
I mean if there's that level of resistance, Dean, I know you are coming from the private sector, but if you have that built-in kind of animus, they're not going to do anything with you because they don't want to give a win to a side that is seen as the enemy these days.
PHILLIPS: Chris, that's true--
CUOMO: But look that's the culture.
PHILLIPS: Hey, look, I got to--
CUOMO: Go ahead.
PHILLIPS: It is the culture. But that's what makes our little group unique, the Problem Solvers Caucus, 50 of us, 25 Democrats, 25 Republicans.
Dusty Johnson doesn't have to sit at the Problem Solvers Caucus table. It's probably more politically rewarding for him not to, but he chooses to.
CUOMO: But he didn't have to bail tonight.
PHILLIPS: And he is one of the handful--
CUOMO: He didn't have to bail tonight.
PHILLIPS: Look, I--
CUOMO: He could have come here. He could have said, "Look, the election's over. The guy won. Let's worry about the people who are starving, Chris. I thought you cared about them." And the conversation goes on. That's it.
PHILLIPS: Chris, let me just say, though. Dusty is my friend. He's my partner in this effort. If this bill gets done, ultimately, Dusty Johnson will have played a significant role in making it happen.
And, by the way, Dusty is one of that very handful in the House, the Republicans that have actually said that the election transitions should start happening.
And, by the way, most of them are on the Problem Solvers Caucus, Anthony Gonzalez, Tom Reed, Fred Upton, Brian Fitzpatrick, you know, oh, Denver Riggleman, and other not on the Problem Solvers Caucus, but in other one, Adam Kinzinger, of course. There are some.
Most of them on the Problem Solvers Caucus, we are the people here for the reason to help people. And look it, you could have asked--
CUOMO: I have no problem with it.
PHILLIPS: --a hundred other Members of - you could have asked a hundred other Members of Congress to come on tonight to throw stones at one another.
I would argue today, tonight, tomorrow, until we get this done, we got to focus on one thing, and it's the good in people, and finding some darn way for rank and file members that have a lot of darn power in their hands if we're willing to exercise, and stick together, at some political cost, mind you, this is the time. That's why we're here. It's time to get it done.
CUOMO: I'm with you. I'm with you 100 percent. You are welcome here, the whole phalanx of the Problem Solvers have always been welcome on the show. I've had Reed on. I've had others on. The invitation is there.
But when you bail because you don't even want to address something that may offend Trump, when he's not even going to be President anymore, it speaks to a problem that is going to stop progress.
Congressman Dean Phillips, you are welcome here.
PHILLIPS: Yes. Well let me say something, Chris.
CUOMO: You are welcome here.
PHILLIPS: Can I say one more thing? I want to--
CUOMO: Please, Sir.
PHILLIPS: I'll tell you, lot of my colleagues, you know, I heard Dana Bash say earlier that privately and publically many Republicans are saying that December 14th is the date. And, by the way, it is. That's when all bets are off. That's when the Electoral College--
CUOMO: That's right.
PHILLIPS: --will actually affirm the election.
[21:35:00]
In the meantime, I have to share some human truth. There are a lot of my colleagues, decent people, who are getting death threats, whose families are being attacked, both online and offline.
And you've all - we have all seen, you have seen, I have seen, what happens when anybody says even a remotely negative word about President Donald Trump.
CUOMO: I know. PHILLIPS: And I'm afraid that the people who have had the courage to speak some truth, perhaps step out of line a little bit, in the spirit of truth, what they are receiving, because of this President, let's actually put the burden on the person who really deserves it right now, it is this President.
CUOMO: OK.
PHILLIPS: By the way, and I would say dangerous at best, treasonous at worst what he's doing, I think you and I might agree with that. But for those who are receiving death threats to their family because they are speaking truth, I have to have a little bit of understanding about what's happening right now.
CUOMO: Listen, I get it.
PHILLIPS: December 14th, all bets are off.
CUOMO: I get it. I get it. I get it. Believe me. More than you know, I understand what the price is for standing up to power at this point in time.
PHILLIPS: Yes.
CUOMO: But you got to be on the right side of history. And if you are going to go down--
PHILLIPS: I hear you.
CUOMO: --you should go down fighting for what matters.
And Congressman Dean Phillips, you are welcome here to make the case. This isn't going to end today or tomorrow. I will extend an invitation and you have on open one to come back and say, "Hey, here is what they won't do. Here's what's wrong. Here's what's right." You are welcome, so is Dusty Johnson. OK?
PHILLIPS: And we'll be back. I'm sure we will.
CUOMO: I hope so. Good luck. Get the job done.
We'll be right back.
PHILLIPS: Thanks, Chris.
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[21:40:00]
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CUOMO: You remember Rebekah Jones? Data scientist, fired by the Florida Department of Health, in May, after questioning state officials', commitment to accessibility and transparency with COVID-19 data?
Well, today, her home was raided, as part of a cybercrime investigation.
Video of the raid here, you can see officers coming in, guns drawn.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming outside, outside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who else is in the house, Ma'am?
REBEKAH JONES, FORMER DATA SCIENTIST, FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, FORMER GEOGRAPHIC INFORMATION SYSTEMS MANAGER, FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH: My two children and my husband.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is your husband Ma'am?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Calm down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Jones?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Calm down.
JONES: You want the children now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To come all down (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Jones, come down the stairs, now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police! Come down now!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Search warrant!
JONES: Do not point the--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring your children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come down the stairs.
JONES: --gun at my children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good thing I only cleared (ph).
JONES: He just pointed a gun at my children!
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CUOMO: So, the question is why? Rebekah Jones joins us now for an exclusive interview.
Thank you for joining us.
JONES: Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: Why do you think this happened?
JONES: After speaking to my attorneys, and looking over the evidence they said they have, I actually think that they're not after me.
They didn't take the router in my house. They didn't take a number of laptops in the house that belonged to my son or my husband that could have easily done whatever it is that they think happened.
They took my phone, and they took the computer that I use to run my companies. And on my phone is every communication I have ever had with someone who works at the state who has come to me in confidence and told me things that could get them fired or in trouble like this.
And I just want to say to all those people right now, if he doesn't know already, DeSantis will know soon enough that you have been talking to me, so be careful.
CUOMO: They say, you know, you've seen this, but for the audience, they say that they believe that an IP address belonging to you was used to access an emergency system within the state that you weren't supposed to have access to anymore, once you weren't working there, where you put out a message telling people to speak up, speak out about COVID, speak out about the deaths.
Did you send that text on that system?
JONES: No. I haven't had access to any systems at DoH for over six months. I'm not a hacker. As the Governor pointed out, many months ago, I'm not that tech savvy, and have no interest in reaching out to DoH.
I have been publicly telling people to come forward for months. That is the way that you do it. And I, better than anybody, know that people at DoH aren't going to. If they didn't come out before, when I warned everybody that DeSantis would, and eventually he did, get people killed, they're not going to come out now.
CUOMO: What do you make of their saying that they have the IP address and that is yours?
JONES: Well that IP address was apparently provided by the Department of Health I.G. office, Inspector General, and didn't actually come from the investigation. It comes from DoH.
CUOMO: Now, I don't know how big a deal it is to send that text. I have to look closer at the statute, and see what they saw, in terms of why they're motivated this way. But you do know that saying you didn't send it, if they prove that you did, you are going to have much bigger problems than otherwise.
JONES: Yes. I'm not too worried about that.
CUOMO: You stand by the answer you did not send that text? You did not send any message of any kind to any group on any system that you weren't supposed to?
JONES: The only direct communication I've ever sent to DoH was through a public Op-Ed, in the Miami Herald, asking people to speak out, and that was many months ago.
CUOMO: And you know why I'm asking you. It's not about an accusation. It's I want to give you fair hearing to answer what they're going to put out and have put out about why they came to your house that way.
And I heard you freaking out about your kids being in there and what they do. I understand why you'd be worried about it. But they're saying it's a cybercrime. You are saying there is nothing to their allegation.
JONES: No. And this is just a very thinly-veiled attempt of the Governor to intimidate scientists, and get back at me, while trying to get to my sources, as he's been firing DoH staff left and right, including their Director of Communications, who was fired about that time.
CUOMO: Do you know the communication that they're talking about? Did you hear about it? Do you have any sense of who might have sent it?
[21:45:00]
JONES: I didn't even see it until today, and I'd also like to note that a lot of the language that was used in it is not the way I talk.
And the number of deaths that the person used wasn't even right. They were off. They're actually under by about 430 deaths. I would never round down 430 deaths. Those are 430 people who have died in this state. I take that number and every number I publish very seriously.
CUOMO: So, listen, I don't want to draw this out too much. I know you got lawyers. I know that they're - they're always going to be worried about people coming on television, when you have a case pending, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to respond to the allegations in real-time, as they're going out there.
JONES: Yes.
CUOMO: And I'm sure that this was a hard day for your family, especially if there is nothing behind the allegations.
Last word to you.
JONES: DeSantis needs to worry less about what I'm writing about, and more about the people who are sick and dying in his state. And doing this to me will not stop me from reporting the data, ever.
CUOMO: Rebekah Jones, thank you for taking the time to come on. We will be watching the investigation every step of the way. JONES: Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: All right. Be well.
We'll be right back.
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[21:50:00]
CUOMO: So, what can Trump really do? All right, there is one avenue of relief that Trump could use that could make a difference, OK?
Now, I know that this is a preposterous level of pushback because he's had no proof in all of these different courts. He now is saying "I think the case has been made." What case? The case has been made against him, is what has been made.
But the reason that there is a little bit of oxygen here is because you have 40-plus senators who say stuff like this.
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SEN. KELLY LOEFFLER (R-GA): President Trump has every right to use every legal recourse.
We've seen time and again that we have investigations that need to be completed.
It's very clear that there were issues in this election.
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CUOMO: "It's clear that there were issues in the election," she doesn't know what's clear. She didn't have any proof.
Silence is complicity. What you ignore you empower. That's what my next guest is fighting against because there is an avenue of relief for the President that has been yet to be pursued because of timing. Lawrence Lessig, Founder of Equal Citizens, as well as teaching law at Harvard, you've seen him on the show before.
Welcome back, Professor.
LAWRENCE LESSIG, HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR, FOUNDER, EQUAL CITIZENS: Great to be here, Chris. Thanks for having me.
CUOMO: So the avenue is that the President could ask states, and "The Washington Post" is reporting tonight, that Trump reached out to the Head of the Pennsylvania State Legislature, twice, for help in changing the electors and in terms of what they could do when they meet December 14.
What is your take?
LESSIG: Right. Well so what the President's team, since the summer, has been planning is that state legislatures exercise a power they think the Constitution gives them, to select an alternative slate of electors, one that's not connected to the election necessarily.
It's just the states' legislature, according to this theory, can at, quote, any time pick a new slate. And so, what the President is actually doing is he's trying to get the legislature to exercise the supposed power that they have to ignore the vote of the people and to just pick a new slate. We could call them faithless legislatures rather than faithless electors.
And their theory is if they can get an alternative slate to vote next week, then going into January 6th, they can play games with Mike Pence, who is chairing the joint session, and try to get that slate counted instead.
CUOMO: Now, here is the scary part of this theory that you could just throw out is "Well that's not going to happen. These legislatures aren't going to risk that."
There are a lot of states, after 2016, when you had a couple of faithless electors, that wrote into their Constitution, or into legislation, that "No, if you're picked as an elector, you've got to go the way that the vote went. Otherwise, we're going to replace you with somebody who did."
Georgia and Pennsylvania did not write that in to their state laws. So, what is the possibility here?
LESSIG: Yes. Well so, I took that case to the Supreme Court, where the Supreme Court finally ruled clearly that the states have this power.
But the "Faithless elector" path is not a path they can win because the electors in Georgia and in Pennsylvania are Democrats, and those individual electors are certainly not going to change their vote for Donald Trump.
The path that they're talking about is a whole new slate of electors. And this whole new slate, because of some sloppy language, in the Supreme Court's decision, in Bush v. Gore they think they can, quote, pick at, quote, any time.
And so, if they pick this new slate, and then when Mike Pence opens the elector slate certificates from Pennsylvania, or Georgia, or from Michigan, and sees that there are two slates, then Congress has to decide which slate it will count. And if it follows the law, it should clearly count Joe Biden's slate.
But the problem is this is Congress. It's not the Supreme Court. So, it's not clear what Congress does, especially if we don't have a clear majority, in the Senate, who are willing to uphold the rights of the people, to actually choose their President.
CUOMO: What do you think happens?
LESSIG: Well I think that if what should happen now - between now and next week is that we should get Republican senators to stand up, and say, I mean, you're a perfect venue for this, that they will not recognize the votes of any slate of electors that was picked against the popular vote, legitimate popular vote of people in that state.
CUOMO: Professor, I can't get a Republican to come on this show--
LESSIG: If they could just make that--
CUOMO: --and tell me what flavor ice cream he or she likes unless--
LESSIG: I know.
CUOMO: --Trump says he likes it first.
LESSIG: We only need three or four.
CUOMO: But do you think that these states would really do this, Professor? I mean, what it comes down to is whether or not--
LESSIG: Yes.
[21:55:00]
CUOMO: --you can get enough juice. Kemp in Georgia has not talked the talk of somebody who wants to do this. Do you think there is a chance in Pennsylvania they would?
LESSIG: My view is there isn't, because I've been really incredibly surprised and really happy with the resistance that you're seeing at the state level, I mean, especially in Georgia, you see very strong Trump supporters were willing to stand up for the rule of law--
CUOMO: Right.
LESSIG: --and for democracy. But we wouldn't hear about it now. The point where we'll know is one week from now because it must be that this alternative slate gathers, and votes, cast their vote on December 14th.
And only if we have these alternative slates voting on December 14th do we have anything to worry about. If they don't gather, if we don't have these alternative slates, if there isn't something by that moment, then this game is certainly completely over.
CUOMO: All right, and thus the feeling that it never ends. We'll keep watching. Larry Lessig, Professor, thank you very much. LESSIG: Thank you.
CUOMO: All right. We'll be right back.
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DON LEMON, CNN HOST: I don't know what you're talking about.
