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Police Name Nashville Bombing Suspect, Motive Not Yet Known; Trump Relief Bill Signing Canceled At Last Minute On Christmas Eve; California Hospital Forced To Construct Outdoor Surge Tents; Indications Trump Could Sign COVID Relief Bill Tonight. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired December 27, 2020 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[18:00:00]

AMARA WALKER, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Amara Walker in for Ana Cabrera. We are following breaking news right now from Nashville, a city still rattled by a massive explosion that ripped through a downtown neighborhood early Christmas morning.

Federal agents now confirming the name of a suspect, they now say, was responsible for setting off that blast.

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DONALD COCHRAN, U.S. ATTORNEY, MIDDLE DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE: Based on the evidence that we've gathered at this point, we've come to the conclusion an individual named Anthony Warner is the bomber, that he was present when the bomb went off and that he perished in the bombing. We base this conclusion on forensic evidence, including DNA evidence that you'll hear about, as well as evidence that was gathered at the scene of the bombing.

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WALKER: As importantly as the name of the bomber, federal officials are also confirming their belief that the suspect acted alone.

CNN's Shimon Prokupecz is in Nashville, where police and investigators just addressed the public. We got a slew of information in the past few hours, Shimon. Update us please.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, most significantly. Publicly, we now know the name, as you said Anthony Quinn Warner, 63 years old. And the way the police and the FBI here are describing how they were able to identify this individual is really remarkable.

Some of it is luck. Some it is just good investigative work, investigative. Some of it is tips from the public that came into them in the moments after this blast and also after they released a photo of that R.V. And what authorities say ultimately is the human remains found on -- at the blast site came back to the bomber. The other thing authorities describe is how they went about identifying the bomber so quickly and here is some of what they said about that.

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REPORTER: This is a massive blast. How are you able to find that VIN number?

COL. MATT PERRY, TENNESSEE HIGHWAY PATROL: Our special agents in the Tennessee Highway Patrol are trained in that with responsibility (INAUDIBLE). They were able to come out starting Christmas night and came again when it was daylight, the next day, yesterday, and helped identify all the particular vehicle parts.

REPORTER: So there was a vehicle part that you found in the debris that ultimately led to the identification?

PERRY: I can't answer that exactly. It did connect the vehicle to the suspect. I believe tips and other information came in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: And it is a vehicle part that they found. I'm told by someone familiar with the investigation that actually despite the force of this blast, the explosion, authorities were able to recover enough of a piece of part of this R.V. And in that part, they discovered what is commonly referred to as the VIN number, the vehicle identification number. And with that number, they were then able to trace who owned the R.V.

And almost immediately, within hours of this blast, authorities here were able to work off of that identification. And that is how they, in the beginning of this investigation, identified who they thought may be responsible.

And then there were also tips and other information that they gathered that led them to this person and to this identification.

WALKER: The investigation, however, Shimon, is not over, right? I mean, there is a very large crime scene where you are. We still don't know what the motive was, although officials are saying that they're confident this man Anthony Warner, 63-year-old Anthony Warner, acted alone, but there is still a lot of evidence to sift through and more questions to be answered.

PROKUPECZ: Right. Certainly, the debris field, the evidence from that, is still painstakingly -- they're still going through that because there is a lot of debris. And the reason they're going through that debris is because they're trying to find out what explosives were used in the explosion in making this bomb.

And the FBI is working this minute by minute, you know, with the DNA sample and the human tissue. They actually took that and flew it to Quantico, to Virginia. They also flew DNA samples from the bomber's family and that is how they were able to make this match so quickly. As to the motive, that is something that is also very consuming and it is taking a lot of the investigators' time. They are trying to figure out what happened here, why this individual -- what sparked this individual. They don't know. I mean, I've talked to several people now and, honestly, there's a lot of speculation out there about 5G, about other issues going on in this man's life, but it could be several things and that is what they are working through.

[18:05:05]

Certainly, they're looking at his history, where he worked, what he did in the days and weeks and months leading up to him doing this. This is all part of the investigation.

And, honestly, you know, as one person put it to me, we could get to a point where there is no clear cut motive. We've seen this in other incidents, like the Las Vegas shooting, where authorities don't come to one clear motive.

There is a lot sometimes that is going on in people's lives that triggers different events and this could be one of those things that something could have triggered this. And they may never know exactly what it is. It is hard to believe. But that is very much a possibility in this situation.

WALKER: Yes, that is a fair point. Shimon Prokupecz, I really appreciate all the reporting you've been doing in the last few days. Thank you so much, Shimon.

Let's get Andrew McCabe into this conversation now. He is the former deputy FBI director, now a CNN Senior Law Enforcement Analyst.

And, Andrew, I just want to get your thoughts on these latest developments. So, you have federal, state, local officials making this major announcement just a couple of hours ago, or I think about that was about an hour ago, where they said that it is Anthony Warner, a 63-year-old man, who is the suicide bomber.

They were able to identify him like just two days after this Christmas day explosion. They say he was the one that detonated the bomb, died in the bombing, they believed no one else was involved in this, no other threats right now to be concerned about. But they also say this man was not on authorities' radar. Is that unusual to you?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It is really not unusual. And, in fact, that is one of the most terrifying moments when you're working a case like this and I unfortunately had this experience many times over my career at the FBI when you finally identified your perpetrator, you make the first search through your internal databases to see if you knew this person before, if they'd ever been investigated or come across our radar in any way, and you hope to God that it's not someone who you were looking at and then looked away from and then they did something like this. In this case, it appears that this person was unknown to law enforcement.

I think it was fascinating, some of the things we learned in this press conference, it is pretty clear that they were confident from the very beginning, even if they didn't tell us this fact, that the bomber blew up inside the R.V. And it's clear, the reason for that is because of the extensive video surveillance on this block. So, essentially, they were able to go back on that surveillance, see the R.V. pull to the side of the road and then they could essentially watch it after the fact and see that no one ever got out of it.

No other people got into it. No one got out and was picked up by a second person. So they know from the very beginning that the bomber died in that R.V. Once they find the human remains on the scene, they now have the remains of the bomber.

The question is do those remains belong to the owner of the R.V.? They find the owner of the R.V. from the vehicle part that Shimon was talking about. They can then get a sample from his family of his DNA. They compare that to the remains they have and, presto, you have 100 percent confirmation of who the bomber is and the fact that he died on the scene.

WALKER: There are so many bizarre details about this bombing, especially the audio warnings that were playing just before the R.V. exploded, Andrew, and then one of the responding officers reporting that he had heard music playing from the R.V. right before the explosion and had seen surveillance camera, at least one surveillance camera on the rear view mirror and it led the police officer to believe that they were being recorded or watched in some way. What do you make of all that?

MCCABE: Really hard to draw conclusions from those details at this point and, hopefully, we'll get to the bottom of this with more information from the search of the residence and those sorts of things. But, you know, it is very similar to Stephen Paddock, who was the Las Vegas shooter, who also set up a video surveillance around the entrance to his hotel room before he began his shooting spree. We're not quite sure why he did that either. But it is not something we haven't seen before.

I think there's a lot we need to know about this man and his background and his beliefs and what sort of message or potentially ideology he may have been pursuing with this act. I know we are not to the point where we're ready to say this was an act of terrorism, as the FBI indicated today. They are not quite there yet. But on the other hand, it is also hard to imagine that someone who constructs a device of this magnitude and blows it up in a public place, on a downtown street on Christmas day wasn't trying to send some sort of message.

[18:10:08]

So that is the job for the FBI and their partners right now to sift through every aspect of this person's life to try to understand what he was thinking and what he might have been trying to say with this act.

WALKER: Yes, you're right, the FBI not calling this terrorism just yet. What needs to happen or what is required to label something domestic terrorism?

MCCABE: So, the FBI definition of domestic terrorism is a violent criminal act committed by a person or group in pursuit of a goal or an agenda tied to a particular ideology. That could be political ideology, religious ideology, social concerns, environmental concerns.

And so what the FBI is looking for is some expression by Anthony Warner about his interest in or pursuit of something like that. So if -- they'll go back and they'll look at everything they take from his house, they'll look at his writings, they look at the things he was reading, they look his browser history on any internet-connected devices, they'll look at the people he was speaking to on the phone and may have been exchanging emails with, all in an effort to find out what was he thinking.

And if they find that he was motivated by an ideology and that's connected to this act, then you have a situation of domestic terrorism.

WALKER: And I have to ask you about why officials are so confident, Andrew, that there are no other threats, because they had declared that pretty early on in the investigation and then we, of course, saw this white box truck. We don't know if it's related in any way and the person, the driver of the car was detained and explosives were found inside the box truck earlier this afternoon, but how can they be so sure?

MCCABE: That is a great question. And I think the answer lies in the way that's phrased. I think they're not currently aware of any intelligence about any other threats. They didn't -- there is no indication that there were any other people involved in the deployment and the setting off of this device.

However, they are still early in the investigation. The sort of things that they'll go through will tell them whether or not he was actually working with other people to learn how to build the device, to fund its acquisition, to put it together. And so I would be really careful before I lean maybe quite as far forward as they are right now and saying, there is absolutely no one else involved and there are no other threats. I think they have a little bit more work to do to be a hundred percent confident.

WALKER: Okay. Andrew McCabe, I always appreciate your expertise and time. Happy New Year to you and thank you.

MCCABE: Thank you, Amara, you as well.

WALKER: Breaking news, CNN learning White House staff made plans for President Trump to sign the COVID relief bill, even having it flown to Mar-a-Lago, when suddenly that signing ceremony they had planned was canceled, the details, next.

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[18:15:00] WALKER: Breaking news, CNN has learned that staff made plans for President Trump to sign the $900 billion COVID relief bill on Christmas Eve at Mar-a-Lago. The bill was flown there for his signature. But the signing didn't happen, obviously. Sources saying the plan got scrapped at the very last minute.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond is in West Palm Beach, Florida, with the details. Jeremy, what happened?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Amara, this is new reporting from my colleagues, Kevin Liptak and Kate Bennett. They report that staff at Mar-a-Lago began making plans for the president to sign this desperately needed $900 billion coronavirus relief bill and, of course, the accompanying government spending bill at Mar-a- Lago on Christmas Eve. So that would be Thursday evening.

The ceremony was set for 7:00 P.M., a ceremonial desk, chair, and even those pens that the president uses to sign legislation were all at the ready. And at the last minute, two sources familiar with the matter say that those plans were scrapped.

Now, one source is saying the president changed his mind on signing that legislation. The other source said that it wasn't clear whether the president had actually settled on signing this coronavirus relief legislation or if his plans were simply made as a precaution. But, nonetheless, we do know that that legislation was actually flown down to Washington on Thursday, so it does appear things were in the works heading in the direction at least for the president to actually sign this legislation.

Two days before that, of course, the president made his threat to not sign the legislation, calling it a disgrace and arguing that those $600 stimulus checks to Americans should be more than tripled to $2,000. Of course, since then though, the president has done virtually nothing to actually get those changes brought into the legislation other than firing off a few tweets. He hasn't, to our knowledge, been on the phone with congressional leadership. Instead, the president has spent three of the last four days golfing at his golf club here in West Palm Beach.

And, again, all of this coming, as we know, that tens of millions of Americans are financially struggling this holiday season. More than 20 million Americans are unemployed. More than 12 million of those actually lost those supplemental federal unemployment benefits this very weekend because the president did not sign that legislation on Christmas Eve or as recently as yesterday.

So, again, as of now, we don't know whether the president still intends to perhaps sign this legislation or whether he will veto it. But what we do know is that this is having a real world impact on millions of Americans, those who are unemployed, small businesses, and even, keep in mind, vaccine distribution. There were billions of dollars in funding for that as well in this legislation. Amara?

WALKER: Jeremy, it is quite the juxtaposition, isn't it, seeing video of the president golfing and refusing to sign this bill that had broad bipartisan support while so many millions of Americans are suffering and seeing this as a crucial financial life line to them. Jeremy Diamond, thank you for your reporting.

Joining me now to discuss this further is Susan Glasser, CNN Global Affairs Analyst and Staff Writer for The New Yorker, and David Gergen, CNN Senior Political Analyst and former presidential adviser in four administrations. Welcome to you both.

David, let's start with you. I would like to get your reaction to this news that the staff had made plans. It looked like President Trump was about to sign this COVID relief bill on Christmas Eve. It was scrapped last minute. Do you think this was just a spur of the moment thing for the president or was there any political calculus at play?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: We'll never know, won't we? Listen, Amara, what we expect of our presidents is to have a steady hand on the tiller guiding the ship of state to safety.

[18:20:00]

And here we have a president who is acting like a drunken sailor on the bridge. He's lurching in all sorts of directions and leaving millions of Americans uncertain about where their next dollars are going to come from to put food on the table, to stay in the homes they have, to keep their cars, pay mortgages. All these things are in flux right now.

Look, I think the president was fundamentally right on one point, and that is $600 as a single payment, that is what was anticipated or is anticipated, as a single payment, it's meager. It's very little. And it's right to raise the number. But if you're going to have a negotiation and you're the president of the United States, you need to be a powerful player at the table. Your voice needs to be heard in the process in order to get things done.

Every president has been successful, has been an active participant in the negotiations. This president deigned not to join the negotiations and let it slip past him. That is why it is so insane. And why we all have a sense of, this man is out of control.

WALKER: Susan, to you. I mean, to what David was saying, I don't think there are many people who would disagree that $600 is just not enough especially with this unprecedented economic crisis that so many Americans are facing. Do you think that the president just needs to hurry up and sign this and then hopefully Congress can come up with another bill, another relief bill?

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, that is exactly right. Talk about making the perfect, the enemy of the good. In this situation, there is nothing stopping the president from signing a bill and working hard with Democrats to support having a much more robust stimulus payment to Americans, nothing stopping him from working with them to do that. He chose to play golf, as your report noted just now, rather than to engage in any negotiations with this.

I mean, there are so many metaphors. David used the drunken sailor. To me, this seems like the last act of a hostage drama in which, unfortunately, Americans are the hostages and, you know, who knows what's going to happen next.

WALKER: David, the president's refusal to sign the bill obviously putting the Republican incumbents in the Georgia Senate runoff in a really tough and awkward spot because you have both Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue, who have been Trump loyalists, they they've also run on the promise of delivering that relief money. And take a look at this ad from Perdue's campaign.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senator Perdue never gave up. Perdue, again, delivered real, meaningful help for Georgians, $900 billion in new COVID relief, direct checks to Georgians, critical funding for vaccine distribution, small businesses, public schools and help for folks out of work. Ossoff obstructed, Perdue delivered.

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WALKER: Okay. First off, he did not deliver because we know the bill has not yet been signed. But, David, how crucial is this COVID relief bill when it comes to these two Senate runoff races?

GERGEN: Well, we think it is very important. And, obviously, the president changed his mind on this one too. Remember, he was going to make a second trip to Georgia (INAUDIBLE) candidates, and he pulled back on that.

So I think the tilt, and there is a lot of money pouring into the Democratic coffers in Georgia, the races seem to be slightly tilted toward the Democratic candidates. We should note, we have so little reliable information. I don't think we ought to take that to the bank.

WALKER: Susan, how do you think this is going to hurt or impact the GOP in the long-term?

GLASSER: Look, the states obviously couldn't higher. I mean, that's the thing. It's like it's one thing to have this self-indulgent tantrum after the election, we are in the middle of this national crisis. Today, I am just so struck by the painful end to this year. A hundred thousand Americans have died just since the election. And the idea that we're going to have a self-inflicted wound, potentially a government shutdown in the middle of this, you know, Republicans' entire control of the Senate hinges on these two Senate races right now.

And the real question remains unanswered, which is when if ever are Republicans going to free themselves from the spell of Donald Trump? What's been notable to me is that you see a few more Republican- elected officials getting off the Trump train as power ebbs from the president and speaking their mind, people like Pat Toomey from Pennsylvania, who's retiring or, you know, Congressman Adam Kinzinger, very critical of him. And yet, by and large, the party is stuck with a man who is blowing even them up at the very end as he leaves and goes out the door. So, that question, I think, is very, very unresolved, still.

WALKER: He is even blowing up his own party as he leaves. You are right, Susan.

And, David, I am curious to know what you'll be watching for on January 6th. As we know, a joint session of Congress will be meeting to count the Electoral College votes.

[18:25:000]

It is a formality and it's very likely, though, objections will be raised by Republicans in the House and potentially the Senate. There is precedence for this going back to 2004 over George W. Bush's re- election. How do you see that day playing out?

GERGEN: I think you can get a few people up on the floor on the Republican side and raise objections but I don't think they have the votes among Republicans or certainly not among Democrats. And so I think it is more about keeping the fiction alive, keeping the myth alive that somehow Donald Trump was defrauded and that Joe Biden is an illegitimate president.

I think that is very damaging, as we've discussed before, to the country if it reduces Biden's chances to bring people together across the aisle and to be an effective president. And I agree with everything Susan just said about how the stakes are very high.

I might also add, there is, of course, before we get there, there is January 3rd, and that is if the president has not signed the relief bill before January 3rd, a new Congress comes in that day and this bill collapses. They'd have to start all over again with it. So there is a lot happening right now in the next few days.

WALKER: Yes, a lot to watch for, including the government shutting down after tomorrow night. David Gergen, Susan Glasser, thank you very much for joining me.

GERGEN: Thank you.

WALKER: Happy New Year.

GERGEN: Happy New Year to you.

WALKER: Well, December is now the deadliest month of the pandemic so far, and in California, the virus is spreading like wildfire. We'll take you live to a hospital. That has been forced to construct outdoor surge tents.

But, first, here is Alison Kosik with Before the Bell.

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Amara. Investors are hoping Santa Claus comes to Wall Street. The so-called Santa Claus rally looks at the last five trading days of the year and the first two trading days of the New Year. Since 1969, the S&P 500 has gained an average 1.3 percent over those seven days. That is according to the stock trader's almanac. Of course, 2020 has already been a year of big gains for the stock market. Following the collapse in March, stocks recovered strongly with tech leading the way. The Nasdaq has surged more than 40 percent so far this year.

It is a different story on Main Street. 803,000 Americans filed for first time jobless claims in the latest week. Yes, that is a decline from the previous week but it's still a high number that underscores how this recovery has run into serious trouble.

In New York, I'm Alison Kosik

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[18:31:27]

WALKER: The situation is critical in California as coronavirus cases surge and ICU capacity plummets. The state now has the worst COVID-19 spread in the entire country and some of the hardest hit hospitals are being forced to build outside surge tents to deal with the influx.

CNN's Paul Vercammen joining us now from one of those struggling hospitals in Pasadena, California.

What are seeing, Paul?

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Amara, as you look behind me you see this stately hospital but throughout this hospital they have expanded ICU units and the E.R. units into hallways in other places and then you referred to those surge tents. What they're doing is they're treating non-COVID-19 patients in these tents, keeping them away from the COVID-19 patients and right now in this hospital an all- time high, 189 COVID-19 patients.

You see these ICU numbers. This is getting desperate. And what they fear right now is that on New Year's Eve and around the holiday people are going to congregate, they're going to get a tidal wave of cases either at this hospital, and then they're going to have to go to a drastic measure. They basically call this a form of watching those resources or patient rationing.

Let's talk to a doctor who knows this all too well and fears this tidal wave.

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DR. KIMBERLY SHRINER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST, HUNTINGTON HOSPITAL: Indeed, that is what we may have to do. That's really the ultimate triage. We have a limited number of ventilators, we have a limited number of ICU beds. We have a limited number of plastic tubing for oxygen tanks, and so a lot of those decisions if we get to that point, we're not there yet, but if we did we're going to have to make some of those decisions. And again, that's a decision that, you know, no physician or nurse or anyone wants to ever have to make about someone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERCAMMEN: And Dr. Shriner, who treated HIV patients in Africa, was talking about what they call scarce resource policy, making those choices. And in a wonderful show of support, a woman in the neighborhood walked out here in front of this hospital just a short time ago and held up a sign that said, "heroes."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNY CRAFT, SHOWING SUPPORT FOR HOSPITAL WORKERS: All they've asked of us is to not gather and to do the right thing so I did it. I just stood here back and forth to let them know that at least somebody listened. Somebody listened to them. I don't want to end up there. I don't want anybody to end up as a patient.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERCAMMEN: And when you talk to these people off camera sometimes they can be more forthcoming and actually use some choice terms. So when talking to doctors and nurses what they are saying right now is, you and your friend or your relative, don't be selfish. Just stay at home. Don't comingle households. We don't want you or any of your loved ones to wind up in a hospital after New Year's Eve.

Back to you now, Amara.

WALKER: Very, very concerning scenes there in Pasadena, California. Thank you for your reporting, Paul Vercammen.

Well, the holiday travel season in full swing this weekend despite CDC warnings urging people to stay home in order to slow the spread of the coronavirus. The TSA screening more than a million people at U.S. airports on Saturday. That's on top of more than seven million people who passed through our nation's airports last week. Surgeon General Dr. Jerome Adams says he's worried about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JEROME ADAMS, U.S. SURGEON GENERAL: We're very concerned and we always see a little bit of a bump after holidays, even sometimes a large bump but what the important thing for people to understand is even if you travel it doesn't mean you just throw your hands up in the air and say, oh, well. There are measures that you can take.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:35:09]

WALKER: All right. So joining me now is CNN medical analyst Dr. Leana Wen. She is the former Baltimore health commissioner.

Doctor, good to see you. So, yes, what precautions should holiday travelers be taking once they get back home? DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: So there are two main things. And

I actually first want to address what people can still be doing right now which is to consider the idea of additive risk. That risk is cumulative. And so people who may have engaged in one or two higher risk activities, for example if they had dinner indoors on Christmas, that doesn't mean that they also now need to go to a bar or an indoor restaurant or a New Year's Eve party. They should still try to reduce risk in every way now.

And then once they get home, they should quarantine for three to five days and then get tested. And if they live at home with someone who did not travel with them in particular somebody who is more vulnerable to having severe illness, who has chronic medical illnesses or is older, they should quarantine indoors away from that person as well.

WALKER: And when it comes to getting tested, is it better the longer you wait to get more accurate tests?

WEN: Yes, it's a good question because we know that the incubation period for COVID, with the virus that causes COVID-19 the time between when you first get exposed and when it shows up on a test, that is up to two weeks. However, if you test in that three to five-day period it should be sufficient in order to pick up most infections.

WALKER: OK. Got it. Let's talk about vaccinations now, Dr. Wen, because the CDC says nearly two million coronavirus vaccine doses have been administered in the U.S. so far, though nearly 10 million doses have been delivered. So this is well below the 20 million vaccinations the Trump administration vowed to have done by the end of the year.

How concerned are you or are you concerned at all about the pace of the vaccinations here?

WEN: I am concerned, because the last thing that we would want is for there to be a delay because right now we have more than 3,000 people who are dying every single day so the faster that we can get vaccines in arms, the better this is going to be. Now with the initial vaccinations we knew there would be some bumps in the road especially when we're considering this ultra cold storage that's needed for the Pfizer vaccine but we also have to remember that this is the easy part right now.

Getting vaccines to health care workers where we're delivering to hospitals, delivering nursing homes, where nursing homes have the residents already in these facilities, that's the easy part compared to delivering vaccines in the community where there is going to be -- have to be some screening of individuals for age or individuals for what kind of work that they're doing. And so I think the hard work is still ahead of us.

WALKER: So for those who are wondering when they can get a vaccine, the general population, is it still spring or summer? Is that optimistic? Is that, you know, pretty realistic as to a timeline as to when we can get vaccinated, the general population?

WEN: I hope that late spring, early summer is the timeline that we are still looking at. But I am again getting worried because two million vaccinations sound like a lot in terms of what we've been already been able to do, but that's well less than 1 percent of the American population.

WALKER: So when we get to that point, how do we find out how we can get vaccinated and where?

WEN: A lot of this is going to be determined on the local and state level, and so the federal government provides recommendations through the CDC as to the order of when people, which individuals are in what group to be vaccinated, but exactly how that's implemented is going to depend on the state.

I would assume that at the point that everyday people are able to walk up and get vaccinated that those vaccinations will be done in pharmacies, at doctors' offices, hopefully there will also be community drives that are held as well because we also have to get vaccines to people where they are in particular in communities that are the hardest hit.

WALKER: And this is going to come a lot down to resources and funding, right, at the state and local levels?

WEN: That's right. And I'm very concerned about state and local health departments running out of money because these are agencies and entities that are already under resourced, already under staffed from the beginning of the pandemic. Then they've had to do everything from testing, contact tracing, public education, working with businesses, and now you add on top of that that they have to be the ones administering the most ambitious vaccination program we've ever had in our nation's history.

They urgently need the funding. They know how to do this work but they need the resources from the federal government.

WALKER: Let me ask you about herd immunity because -- so we're talking about the challenges of actually getting shots in arms for the general population and then there is vaccine hesitancy which I know a lot of public health officials, doctors like you, are concerned about. We know that Dr. Fauci has said he estimates that it'll take 70 percent to 85 percent of the U.S. population to get vaccinated in order to reach herd immunity.

[18:40:06]

I would imagine you agree with those numbers but are you concerned that it's going to be difficult to get to herd immunity with vaccinations?

WEN: Yes, so most scientists do agree with this number. We don't know until it happens about what exactly is that number that we get to herd immunity. And just to clarify what this is, we get vaccines for two reasons. One is to protect ourselves, and these two vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna look like they are 94 percent to 95 percent effective at protecting us individually, as the person who gets a vaccine, but we also want to get enough immunity in the community. That's why herd immunity is also called community immunity that we are

protecting those individuals who may not be able to get vaccines for whatever reason. I have an 8-month-old baby as an example who probably is going to not be able to be vaccinated until late 2021 if that. There are people who are immunosuppressed who may not be able to mount an immune response, and we need vaccines for everyone in order to protect those individuals. And so public education and outreach will be absolutely critical.

WALKER: Really appreciate your expertise, Dr. Leana Wen. Thank you so much for your time.

WEN: Thank you, Amara.

WALKER: All right, next, breaking news on the COVID relief bill. We're going to head straight to Florida where President Trump is spending his weekend right after this.

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WALKER: All right. Breaking news the president tweeting just now that there is good news on the $900 billion COVID relief bill that millions of Americans are in desperate need of.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond following it all for us from West Palm Beach, Florida.

Jeremy, what do we know?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Amara, the president appears to be treating this $900 billion of coronavirus relief as some kind of latest episode of his reality TV show. The president offering a tease for millions of Americans in financial uncertainty saying, quote, "Good news on COVID relief bill, information to follow."

Of course the president could just come out and tell us whether or not he intends to sign this legislation but it appears that he is set on drawing out the drama a little bit longer.

[18:45:07]

We are hearing from one source that that ballroom at Mar-a-Lago has been set up once again for a potential signing ceremony, but the same thing happened of course on Christmas Eve as we just reported earlier this hour, that plans were set up for the president to sign the legislation and at the last minute he ultimately did not.

So, again, we are all waiting to see, but more than us it is the tens of millions of Americans who are depending on this financial relief, who are really on the edges of their seats. We know that again more than 12 million Americans already lost those supplemental federal unemployment benefits this weekend because the president did not sign this legislation last night.

So even, you know, if the president signs it today, that relief will eventually get disbursed to Americans but it is still leading to a delay because of how the president is treating this very, very significant piece of legislation.

WALKER: And just to be clear because let's say President Trump does indeed sign the bill tonight, was there any changes to the bill? Or would it be the same bill that he's signing if he does?

DIAMOND: Well, our understanding is it would be the same bill. If he signs the legislation as is, no amendments have been made to that legislation. Democrats in the House tried to pass by unanimous consent the increase in the stimulus checks that the president was demanding from $600 to $2,000, but House Republicans blocked that measure.

We do know also that House Democrats were planning to bring a separate bill entirely separate from this one to simply address the stimulus checks issue. So we'll see whether or not there is some kind of a deal there that the president worked out in order to make him comfortable with signing this.

But in all likelihood there really haven't been any changes to this and the president simply delayed the inevitable here signing a veto proof piece of legislation five days later, again, if, a big if still, if the president signs that legislation tonight.

WALKER: And this uncertainty really weighing on the minds of so many American people. Millions upset I would imagine that their unemployment benefits have expired and of course there's millions more who face eviction if this bill is not signed but we still have no idea if this is going to happen.

Jeremy Diamond, I know you'll keep us posted. Thank you very much.

And a quick programming note. Say so long, 2020, and hello, 2021 with Anderson Cooper and Andy Cohen. Live from Times Square, New Year's Eve, starting at 8:00 on CNN. We'll be right back.

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[18:50:33]

WALKER: All right. CNN has just learned from a source that a private ballroom at Mar-a-Lago tonight is, once again, set for President Trump to finally sign the COVID-19 relief bill. I say once again because we also learned the same setup was in place on Christmas Eve before a planned signing was scrapped at the last minute. So cautiously optimistic but again who knows what happens?

So what is the president thinking right now? Barbara Res, joining me now. She is the former executive vice president of the Trump Organization and author of -- "Tower of Lies," I should say. "What My 18 Years of Working with Donald Trump Reveals About Him."

Barbara, a source tells CNN Trump is, quote, it's -- saying that, "It's chaos, it's reality TV, but maybe millions will get the help they desperately need." There are millions of lives and livelihoods really in limbo right now. Does this surprise you that President Trump is treating this like a reality show and teasing what he may or may not do?

BARBARA RES, FORMER EXECUTIVE VP, THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION: It doesn't surprise me because that's the way he handles everything. I don't think he has the capability of handling anything differently. He acts -- he does take it seriously, but in a sense, he acts as if he doesn't take it seriously. He, you know, reacts immediately, he speaks off the top of his head, he says some nonsense things. He says like you were saying with the -- with this bill that he's supposed to sign into law.

Yes, he sets things up and then he changes his mind about it and doesn't. It doesn't matter if it's at the last minute of something very major, or just, you know, business as usual. That is how he acts.

WALKER: So I'll ask you that again because, you know, what do you make -- because you've worked for Trump for 18 years. You know him well. What do you make of the chaos that the president is creating because, you know, the government is on the verge of shutting down after tomorrow night as well?

RES: I don't think he's thinking in terms of the government shutting down. I mean, you know, for one thing, the last time that happened he says I'll own them when the government shuts down. I'll own them. I don't think he realizes even what that means. But it's not a matter of whether the government is shutting down, it's a matter of whether or not his plan is going through the way he wanted it to. And the government is just as -- shutting down is just a collateral damage to what he wants to do as people die from COVID, dispensable.

WALKER: So some White House advisers have expressed fear, Barbara, over the next few weeks over, you know, what will Trump do as he resists the end of his tenure. You worked with Trump for 18 years. Are you concerned about what these last few weeks are going to look like?

RES: Well, I am. But, you know, the same reasons that everyone else is concerned. We're sitting here and watching the guy who, you know, most people think is unwinding. I don't. But that's because I know him so well. But he's -- I'm sure that he's trying to do a lot of -- what we would all mostly consider destructive acts. I mean, he may not consider them destructive. His cronies may not.

But he's trying to set up Biden for a fall, certainly. He's been trying to undermine that presidency before it even begins, and he's doing last-minute things, changing laws, you know, making sure that this is discontinued and that's discontinued before it gets out.

WALKER: So what do you think Trump is going to do once he's no longer president because his tenure is coming to an end very soon?

RES: You know, I really don't quite answer your last question. So let me just -- the chaos is how he lives. He's always been someone in chaos and, you know, he'll come up with an idea and ask them to do it. And if they don't want to do it, he'll find someone else to do it. That's whys he ends up with guys like Giuliani when no other lawyer will do anything like that. But going back to your other question, what is he going to do? That's very interesting. I personally think that he's going to build more Trump Towers because

I think that there are people who are very, very wealthy, oligarchy types, who actually admire him. I mean, I think he has no reputation in this country or in the West to build a Trump Tower. I don't think he has that cache anymore. But others do in the Middle East and in Asia.

[18:55:03]

And I do think that he'll be bankrolled to do these Trump Towers and make tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars for doing nothing, which is basically what he's been doing for the past many years. And, you know, I have thought about -- people have suggested he might do some kind of a media outfit, and I actually believe that's a possibility because he has these 40 million or so supporters that he's been feeding, you know, to keep them alive, and right to this very day, half of what he does, he does to keep those supporters energized.

And I think that he's kind of built in an audience. I mean, it would be a cash machine. I mean, he would have media, television, he could have magazines, he could have newspapers.

WALKER: The fact that he has such die-hard supporters, Barbara, do you expect the president to run again in 2024?

RES: Let me quote myself, not a chance in hell. I don't think so, no, absolutely not. For one thing, you know, with Trump, unless some miracle happens and Biden's presidency collapses, Trump is not going to set himself up for another loss. I mean, he's not accepting this loss and he never will. But he's certainly not going to let it happen again because I don't think even he could say he lost if he didn't lose -- if he lost a second time.

WALKER: Got it. Not a chance in hell. Barbara Res, appreciate those famous last words. Thank you very much.

RES: My pleasure.

WALKER: And that does it for me. I'm Amara Walker in Atlanta, and here we go again, a source telling CNN President Trump may be, may be ready to sign the COVID relief bill at any moment. Dana Bash picks up our breaking news coverage from Washington, D.C., after this quick break.

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