Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Trump Demands Georgia Officials to Find Votes to Overturn Election; Trump Capitol Hill Allies Mostly Silently Over Georgia Call; Ten Former Defense Secretaries Condemn Bid to Overturn Election; Trump Quizzes Georgia's Secretary of State to Find Missing Votes; Division Grows in Republican Party Over Electoral College Challenge. Aired 9- 9:30a ET

Aired January 04, 2021 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRAD RAFFENSPERGER (R), GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: Against the state of Georgia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And it was a stunning one-hour phone call over the weekend which clearly showed a desperate President Trump making deliberate attempts to steal votes and threatening Georgia's Republican secretary of state in the process. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state, and flipping the state is a great testament to our country because, you know, this is just -- it's a testament that they can admit to a mistake or whatever you want to call it, if it was a mistake. I don't know. A lot of people think it wasn't a mistake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: The president's word. "I just want to find 11,780 votes," which is one more than we need to overturn the election. It is on tape. It's remarkable to hear.

This morning, Georgia's Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger spoke out about a possible investigation into what the president said, suggested and pressured for on that call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS HOST: David Worley, a Democrat member of the State Election Board which you chair has asked you to open an investigation into the call. Will you open that investigation?

RAFFENSPERGER: I believe that because I had a conversation with the president, also we had a conversation with our chief investigator after we did the signature match audit of Cobb County last week, there may be a conflict of interest. I understand that the Fulton County district attorney wants to look at it. Maybe that's the appropriate venue for it to go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Sitting Republican lawmakers on Capitol Hill are largely silent on this call. As the party grows increasingly divided over a plan to challenge Biden's win on Wednesday based on the president's baseless claims that he is the victim of election fraud.

We will see both the president and President-elect Biden on the campaign trail today in Georgia, this ahead of two critical Senate runoff races there tomorrow.

Let's begin with CNN's John Harwood, he's at the White House, for more on President Trump caught on tape.

Listen, John, the president has for weeks without basis said that he is the victim of fraud here, and that he actually won the election. We now have the president on tape pushing the secretary of state to find him votes. I wonder, is there anyone in that building behind you who acknowledges that this is wrong?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Not publicly. But, look, this is the president of the United States, let's just be clear about this, openly seeking to commit or to induce a state official to commit election fraud, the very thing he's been screaming about, and the notable thing that you guys highlighted in the intro is the subtext of menace that he is raising against Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia secretary of state, during this call, appealing -- setting aside everything else for him to change votes on the grounds that people are angry about the outcome. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: And the people of Georgia are angry. The people of the country are angry. And there's nothing wrong with saying that, you know, that you've recalculated because, 2,236 in absentee ballots, I mean, they're all exact numbers that were done by accounting firms, law firms, et cetera. And even if you cut them in half, cut them in half, and cut them in half again, it's more votes than we need.

RAFFENSPERGER: But, Mr. President, the challenge that you have is the data you have is wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARWOOD: Now, obviously, honest elections officials do not alter vote counts because the losers of the election are angry that they lost, and what you heard on that call was Brad Raffensperger trying very calmly to lay out the facts at the end of that one clip saying that the data the president had was incorrect, that the theories the president had were incorrect. Here is Brad Raffensperger.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAFFENSPERGER: For the last two months, we've been fighting the rumor Whac-A-Mole and it was pretty obvious very early that we'd debunked every one of those theories that had been out there but President Trump continues to believe them so we continue to debunk this. We believe that truth matters, which we continue to fight to get our message out but it's fighting the rumor mill Whac-A-Mole daily.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARWOOD: Now, the problem is that playing Whac-A-Mole and disproving rumors only is effective if the person that you're talking to is capable of understanding reality and if they are capable of understanding reality, that they have -- that they don't have maligned intent, that they're not simply seeking to do something blatantly improper and it's not obvious that either of those things is true of President Trump.

[09:05:03]

He does not seem to have a firm grasp on reality and he plainly is trying to alter the result of an election that he lost to Joe Biden.

HARLOW: John Harwood, thank you very much from the White House this morning.

And a big question, Jim, is what does this do to this week, right, and the vote and everything that's going to happen on Wednesday.

Our Sunlen Serfaty is on Capitol Hill for the reaction or lack thereof, I should say, from the 140 House Republicans and 11-plus House -- Senate Republican senators. Does this change their mind in terms of contesting this?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's certainly is the big question up here today, Poppy, for these Republicans. We aren't hearing much yet and certainly we are hearing an awful lot from Democrats up here on Capitol Hill. They are just absolutely seizing on this audio call expressing alarm. Democrats are calling it despicable abuse of power, others saying that it might merit a criminal investigation.

And the Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer really putting the onus on those Republicans who are going to step up in that Joint Session of Congress on Wednesday, and challenge -- excuse me, President-elect Biden's win in November. Schumer is tweeting out saying if Republicans are looking for an investigation into this election fraud, they should look at that.

So that of course going to increase the scrutiny on these Republicans, the 140 in the House and the 12 over here in the Senate, who are stepping up and saying they are going to object to that certification of Vice President Biden's win. Some fellow Republicans, though, are calling out these senators and members of the House. Adam Kinzinger for one said this should serve as a warning to the dozens of Republicans who support President Trump's efforts to overturn the election.

So a big moment here on Wednesday and this certainly just ratcheted up the temperature up here on Capitol Hill, and the divisions within the Republican Party.

SCIUTTO: Of course, as you know, Sunlen, the sad fact is it's a very small minority of Republicans willing to challenge the president on this. Adam Kinzinger has done it a number of times. Surprising to see one of Trump's fiercest allies, Senator Tom Cotton of Arkansas, says that he will not challenge Joe Biden's win on Wednesday.

You speak to a lot of folks on the hill, an isolated event or do you see particularly -- and we should note that that statement came after this tape was released. Don't know if that was the spark for it. But are you hearing of others planning similar?

SERFATY: Yes, that was interesting. That certainly was a surprise, Jim, the fact Senator Tom Cotton, someone who's a chief ally, a defender of President Trump, someone who typically is aligning with the conservative group that is among Trump's allies up here on Capitol Hill. He said he would not join the others and the timing of course was important, the fact that this statement came after the audiotape was released.

He says that he will not object to it. He says it would establish an unwise precedent, although he says he's concerned with how the 2020 election was carried out. So an important moment for him, certainly, maybe speaks to future political ambitions which of course plays into all of this -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Imagine that. Sunlen Serfaty, thanks very much.

With me now is an election law expert, he's Trevor Potter. He's the founder and president of the Campaign Legal Center. We should also note he's the former chairman of the Federal Election Commission, which is an independent body, it's bipartisan, monitors elections.

Mr. Potter, thanks so much for taking the time this morning.

TREVOR POTTER, FOUNDER AND PRESIDENT, CAMPAIGN LEGAL CENTER: Thanks. Good to be with you.

SCIUTTO: So you say that this call and the president's comments on it and the pressure applied to the secretary of the state of Georgia appears to be a clear violation of Georgia law. Which law and what is the standard -- what is the standard required to prove that?

POTTER: Well, you have both Georgia law and federal law in play here, and in both cases, what they say is you cannot interfere with counting in elections you cannot improperly attempt to change the tabulation, and what's happened here of course is pressure on a state official to change certified election results, and so you have both federal statutes and Georgia statutes in play here that on their face, the president has violated by this call and by asking the secretary of state to just find me 11,000 votes.

So that's not to say that he will end up being criminally charged. That's a very different question than does the law apply to him. I think if it were someone other than the president of the United States and the remaining waning days of his term, that state officials certainly would look at this and perhaps the Biden Department of Justice will look at it, but that doesn't mean that they will end up charging him with anything.

SCIUTTO: Well, that's an odd contradiction, is it not, that for anyone else but the president, they might be prosecuted for this under the law, given no one is more powerful than the president, right?

[09:10:05]

I mean, this is the commander-in-chief speaking to a state election official, and by the way, in that conversation, seeming to issue something of a threat.

I want to play that clip of the conversation here and get your sense of what that means. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The ballots are corrupt and you're going to find that they are -- which is totally illegal. It's more illegal for you than it is for them because you know what they did and you're not reporting it. That's a -- you know, that's a criminal offense and, you know, you can't let that happen. That's a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer. That's a big risk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: As a lawyer and as the law is written, is the president again, the president of the United States, not too subtly saying you may be guilty of a criminal offense and by the way, it's his appointee that runs the Justice Department. Does that -- is that relevant to assessing whether he broke the law?

POTTER: Yes, I think there's both a stick and a carrot here. They're both relevant. The stick of course is this talk about him being potentially liable to a criminal offense allegedly for not reporting or rebutting the fraud the president falsely says occurred in Georgia. And then the carrot is to say you'd be a hero if you can resolve this before the election tomorrow and announce that you've recalculated Republicans will love you.

So, I mean, the shocking thing here, as you say, the president of the United States bullying and badgering a Republican official in Georgia, trying to get him to change the election results. That's what is hard to believe and also I think how disconnected the president is from the facts in Georgia. If you listen to that tape, the secretary of state repeatedly rebuts the president and says we've investigated that, sir. It's not true.

The Georgia State Police have looked into that. We've watched the entire video, piece by piece by piece, every time the president repeats a rumor, which he's evidently heard from someone on his legal team, the secretary of state says, I'm sorry, that's just not -- that's not true. That's not what the data says. So you have a president here claiming fraud. I suspect his defense -- were there a criminal charge, his defense would be I actually thought there was fraud.

I believed all these rumors I was hearing on the internet or from my lawyer, and I was trying to get the secretary of state to investigate. The problem with that, of course, is that the entire legal system has already investigated including the state police.

SCIUTTO: Right.

POTTER: They've had two recounts. They've certified the results, and so the president is caught red-handed here, trying to come in and basically stuff the ballot box, which is what he's accusing others of having done.

SCIUTTO: And as you note, multiple courts have rejected the claims, the Justice Department has rejected the claims and state election officials. I mean, we spent billions educating and informing the president and yet he's spouting false things from the corners of the internet.

Trevor Potter, thanks so much for joining us.

POTTER: Thank you very much.

HARLOW: Well, still to come, a really significant -- a significant move with all 10 living former Defense secretaries issuing a united warning involving the U.S. Armed Forces and President Trump's election dispute would be dangerous, they write, unlawful and unconstitutional.

We'll have more on that ahead. And also today frontline workers will start getting their second dose of the Pfizer COVID vaccine. We'll bring them to you live.

SCIUTTO: And how will President Trump's call with Georgia's secretary of state affect the critical Senate runoffs there? Will he undermine those Senate candidates? We're going to be live on the ground.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:15:00]

HARLOW: Welcome back. All 10 living former defense secretaries including two who serve under President Trump have joined forces to reject his efforts to try to steal votes and overturn the 2020 election.

SCIUTTO: The bipartisan group signed on to the forceful public letter calling for a peaceful transition of power. CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr joins us now. And Barbara, the folks who are on this list, I mean, they span administrations, parties and many years of leadership at the Pentagon. BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: They do indeed. And as you

pointed out, two of them, Mark Esper and Jim Mattis worked for Donald Trump, by all accounts this letter, this message came at the suggestion of former vice president and former Defense Secretary Dick Cheney.

The letter could not be more blunt, warning that the time is now to stop all of this and accept the election results, and move on. I want to read you part of the letter and just how blunt it is, and let me quote, "efforts to involve the U.S. Armed Forces in resolving election disputes would take us into dangerous, unlawful and unconstitutional territory. Civilian and military officials who direct or carry out such measures would be accountable, including potentially facing criminal penalties for the grave consequences of their actions on our republic."

All 10 of these men telling the Trump administration and America that it is illegal, it is unconstitutional for the U.S. military to get involved in election results. Obviously, there's been a lot of concern about the fact that the president could try, could, no indication he is yet, but could try to involve the military in changing the election results. These 10 former defense chiefs saying don't do it. Jim --

HARLOW: Right --

STARR: Poppy?

SCIUTTO: I mean, it's remarkable to hear those words come out of your mouth, Barbara, that they're concerned the president might try to use the military to overturn the election results. The story behind the story of that op-ed. Barbara Starr, thanks very much.

[09:20:00]

HARLOW: Well, the outrage is growing over this call that the president had over the weekend with Georgia Secretary of State, demanding that he quote, "find 11,780 votes", one more than they have, the president said to overturn Biden's win. One Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger blasted that, calling it, quote, "disgusting". Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen says the call represents, quote, "a desperate president, delusional president who knows the walls are closing in on him." And Senator Van Hollen joins me now. Good morning, senator, thank you for being here. I truly wish --

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): Good morning --

HARLOW: It were not on these terms, but it is. I mean, this actually happened. You said it as all the element of a criminal action. What will Congress -- what can Congress do about it?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, Poppy, it's good to be with you. Look, we have 16 days left in the Trump presidency. Obviously, we'd like to see that go as fast as possible. My focus is on this action in the Senate on Wednesday, where you have the effort by Senator Cruz and Senator Hawley and others to overcome the outcome of a democratic election. And they are just feeding this false narrative from the president. They have been from day one. And my goal is to try to make sure that we have a strong a vote as possible rejecting that --

HARLOW: Yes --

VAN HOLLEN: To overturn of the election.

HARLOW: I hear you on that, and we'll get to more on that in a moment. But I just -- you know, think that this call is not only stunning, it's a question of if it goes unchecked, what does that do to our democracy and what precedent does it set going forward for any future presidents? So, I just wonder if you think there's something that Congress should do about it, of course, Georgia Congressman Hank Johnson tweeted last night that this is in his belief a violation of state and federal law, calling to censure the president.

VAN HOLLEN: Well, I do think this has the elements of a criminal act, and there's been a lot of discussion about that. I think the authorities in Georgia and a future Justice Department need to look into that, and make a determination about whether or not to bring charges. Obviously, this president is facing a lot of other potential civil and criminal liability when he leaves office, for other acts he's committed, and this is, you know, going to be part of that review by future administration, but I think or the authorities in Georgia.

HARLOW: Let me get your reaction to what Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, one of the few to speak out against the president on this in a number of issues said about it last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): It's disgusting and quite honestly, it's going to be interesting, you know, all these member of Congress that have now come out and said they're going to object to the election. I don't know how you can do that right now with a clear conscience.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Even Republican Senator Tom Cotton, who usually stands, you know, in line with the president said he -- on Wednesday, is not going to contest the results. Do you think that this call is going to change the minds of more of your Republican colleagues in the Senate and in the house?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, it certainly should. Because it's such an obvious attempt by the president to intimidate an election official to change the results, to overturn the results from the people of Georgia. It's not clear to me yet, whether or not this will make a difference.

Every time in the past that I've believed that some conduct or something the president has done is going to change the behavior of Republicans in the Senate or the house, I've been, you know -- I've been -- I've been wrong to think that. So let's see. On the other hand, this is in so many ways just an example of how over the line this president is. So, this will certainly be part of our discussion on Wednesday. I think you're ready to hear lots of references to this letter during the discussion on the Senate floor, and I hope we will have some impact. HARLOW: So, on January 6th of 2005, right after the 2004 election and

the certification of the results, then former Democratic Congresswoman Barbara Boxer joined her colleague, the late Congresswoman Stephanie Tubbs from Ohio in challenging the certification of the election in that state. It was different in that they had concerns over voter suppression, et cetera.

But it was the same in terms of contesting results that even John Kerry's team said there was no legal basis to do in the state. You issued a statement and you wrote in part, "I think it would have been irresponsible to use the certification process to attempt to change that result. Doing so would establish a terrible precedent. In future elections, a majority party in Congress could attempt to overturn the election of a presidency of the other party."

Again, January 6, 2005, not only was it prescient, it was an important warning. And I wonder in retrospect, was it a mistake from your Democratic colleagues to make that move then, because it's being used as ammunition from Republicans now?

[09:25:00]

VAN HOLLEN: Well, Poppy, I did think that was a mistake, to use that particular method, to try to raise legitimate concerns about voter suppression, and in that statement, I commended those members for raising issues of voter suppression, but warned that the method they were choosing was very dangerous and could create a precedent, which we are seeing today in the sense that, you know, Republicans are pointing to that action.

Obviously, what's happening today is so totally different in major respects. John Kerry had conceded the election in Ohio, Congresswoman Stephanie Tubbs Jones said that, you know, it wasn't her intent to overturn the election, but to use this as an opportunity to raise these issues.

But again, I think that the choice of using the overturning of an election, that vote, that was a mistake and that's what I said at the time. And I appreciate you're raising this because Senator Hawley and others have cited my statement, but left out the most important part, which is that the effort to use this process was misguided.

HARLOW: We'd like to read full statements here to get them accurate --

VAN HOLLEN: Appreciate it --

HARLOW: Senator Van Hollen, we appreciate that, you have a busy week ahead. Thanks for your time.

VAN HOLLEN: Good to be with you, Poppy, thanks.

HARLOW: Jim?

SCIUTTO: Well, we are just moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street. Looks like investors will start 2021 the same way 2020 ended. Dow set to begin the first trading day of the new year higher. The question is, will that rally continue? Of course, investors will be watching for the December jobs report, due out on Friday. What insight will it give them into the economic recovery amid the worsening coronavirus pandemic?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)