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Trump Demands Georgia Officials 'Find' Votes to Overturn Results; All 10 Former Defense Secretaries Condemn Bid to Overturn Election. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired January 04, 2021 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

[05:59:54]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. It's Monday, January 4, 6 a.m. here in New York.

And the breaking news, we know Donald Trump lost the election. This morning, it's fair to ask whether he lost his mind. So if you think that's harsh, it's actually the most charitable explanation for the astonishing new evidence that has come to light.

Audio first obtained by "The Washington Post" reveals the president trying to bully Georgia's Republican secretary of state into, quote, "finding votes" to overturn President-elect Biden's win there.

The audio includes what might be construed as the threat of criminal prosecution.

So either the president has just completely lost his grip on reality -- and there is much in the hour-long recording to suggest this -- or he got caught committing an act that you will hear legal experts say is, at a minimum, morally repugnant, and at a maximum, a conspiracy to violate election law.

All of this on the eve of the crucial Georgia Senate runoffs.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Also breaking overnight, all ten living former defense secretaries felt the need to band together to write a public letter, forcefully declaring that the election is over and criticizing attempts to overturn the outcome.

All of them also feeling the need to stress that involving the military in an election dispute would be dangerous. Is that something President Trump is considering?

The idea for the letter was reportedly Dick Cheney's. A growing number of House and Senate Republicans are getting behind a desperate attempt to block Congress' certification of Joe Biden's win.

So let's begin with CNN's Joe Johns. He is live at the White House with the breaking details. A lot happened yesterday, Joe. JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

The release of that call comes at a time when the Electoral College votes are going to be counted by Congress up on Capitol Hill just a couple of days from now.

"The Washington Post" first reported that recording, and it's only going to increase the scrutiny and the spotlight on the president, as well as on members of his own party who are trying to appease him; while critics of the president say, at a minimum, it's an abuse of power.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS (voice-over): The stunning recording of President Trump in his own words, pressuring the Georgia secretary of state to overturn the election results in a phone call.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (via phone): So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. And flipping the state is a great testament to our country, because, you know, there's -- there's just -- it's a testament that they can admit to a mistake. Or whatever you want to call it, if it was a mistake, I don't know. A lot of people think it wasn't a mistake.

JOHNS: For an hour, Trump repeated baseless claims of voter fraud and attacked Brad Raffensperger for refusing to say Trump won the contest in Georgia that he lost.

TRUMP: And the people of Georgia are angry. The people of the country are angry. And there's nothing wrong with saying that, you know, that you've recalculated. Because the 2,246 in absentee ballots, I mean, they're all exact numbers that were -- were done by accounting firms, law firms, et cetera. And even if you cut them in half, cut them in half and cut them in half again, it's more votes than we need.

BRAD RAFFENSPERGER, GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE (via phone): Well, Mr. President, the challenge that you have is the data you have is wrong.

JOHNS: Raffensperger, a Republican and Trump supporter, has overseen multiple recounts and audits of the election in Georgia, each one reaffirming President-elect Joe Biden's victory.

RAFFENSPERGER: Mr. President, the problem you have with social media, they can -- people can say anything.

TRUMP: No, this isn't social media. This is Trump media. It's not social media. It's -- it's really not. It's not social media. I don't care about social media. I couldn't care less. Social media is big tech. Big tech is on your side, you know. I don't even know why you have a side, because you should want to have an accurate election. And you're a Republican.

RAFFENSPERGER: We believe that we do have an accurate election.

JOHNS: The president's conversation after weeks of slamming Georgia election officials.

TRUMP: There's no way I lost Georgia. There's no way. We won by hundreds of thousands of votes. I'm just going by small numbers. When you add them up, they're many times the 11,000. But -- but I won that state by hundreds of thousands of votes.

JOHNS: In reality, Biden won Georgia by nearly 12,000 votes. Biden's senior adviser saying the tape shows "irrefutable truth of a president pressuring and threatening an official of his own party to get him to rescind a state's lawful, certified vote count and fabricate another in its place."

And at a drive-in rally ahead of Georgia's Senate runoff races --

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Hey, Savannah!

JOHNS: -- Vice President-elect Kamala Harris weighed in on the audio.

HARRIS: Well, it was, yes, certainly the voice of desperation. Most certainly that. And it was a bald -- bald-faced, bold abuse of power by the president of the United States.

[06:05:16]

JOHNS: Trump is set to head to Georgia later today for campaign events supporting the two Republican candidates, Senators Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue. This, one day before the end of the voting that will determine whether Democrats take control of the Senate.

Capitol Hill Democrats and some Republicans outraged by the president's efforts.

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): It has all the elements of a criminal action, because you have the president trying to illegally change the results of an election by, essentially, threatening the secretary of state and others here. So I certainly think it merits a good look. Whether or not people decide to actually prosecute at some point, that's a separate issue.

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): It's disgusting and quite honestly, it's going to be interesting. You know, all these members of Congress that have now come out and said they're going to object to the election, I don't know how you can do that right now with a clear conscience, because this is -- this is so obviously -- beyond the pale is probably not even the way to describe it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: The latest numbers we have, 12 Republican senators, about 140 Republican members of the House of Representatives have indicated they are likely to vote against the Electoral College count. However, that's not nearly enough to prevent Joe Biden from becoming the next president.

Back to you. BERMAN: All right. Joe Johns at the White House. Joe, please keep us

posted as to what happens there, because who knows what's next from the Oval Office?

Joining us now, CNN commentators and former Republican members of Congress, Charlie Dent and Mike Rogers. Also with us, Greg Bluestein. He's a political reporter for "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution."

And friends, on top of everything you just heard, there was also, in this phone call, what some construe as an explicit threat from the president of the United States to the Georgia secretary of state. So let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The ballots are corrupt. And you're going to find that they are -- which is totally illegal. It's -- it's more illegal for you than it is for them. Because you know what they did, and you're not reporting it. That's -- you know, that's a criminal -- that's a criminal offense. And you know, you can't let that happen. That's -- that's a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer. That's a big risk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So Greg, I want to go to you first. I mean, you are in the middle of this all in Georgia. How is all this being received this morning?

GREG BLUESTEIN, POLITICAL REPORTER, "ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION": A whirlwind. You know, another, just bombshell on top of a climactic ending we're already having, with both President Trump and President- elect Joe Biden coming to Georgia to stump today. And there's a giant question mark about how this will shape the end of this election.

It plays into Democratic arguments that the two Republicans are -- are more interested in rushing more to the Trump side than the side of Georgians. And of course, with Republicans, they've embraced Trump at every turn, and they've been silent so far on -- on this call.

CAMEROTA: Mike Rogers, what did you think when you heard the president?

MIKE ROGERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it sounded a lot more like a juice (ph) loan collector in Chicago than the president of the United States to me.

I think this was terrible. I think this -- and by the way, there's nothing conservative about this. A federal intervention into state- certified elections, there's nothing conservative. So for those members who are cloaking themselves in this is a conservative movement are just wrong.

And it's dangerous to try to continue to cede this notion that this election wasn't fairly won. I mean, there's a way to do this. And that is to regroup and come back at another election in four years, so your side can win. This -- this is really troubling to me. And I hope the members have a better moment after listening to this

tape, to think it's pretty hard to justify this almost cult of personality versus what the law of the country is.

And we have an obligation. Those -- those folks need to stand up. Those members of Congress and the Senate need to stand up and understand, this is bigger than them. It's bigger than their party. It's about the United States of America. And they need to make the right choice, which is to certify elections.

And remember, this is a Republican secretary of state saying, We've checked it all out. We've reviewed your information, and you're just wrong, Mr. President. You don't have the right facts. We think it's a good election.

BERMAN: And Charlie Dent, If you don't do what I say, the president seems to suggest, or at least floats, you could be liable to criminal prosecution. I mean, what do you hear in this phone call, Charlie?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: What I hear is that Brad Raffensperger and Ryan Germany were being accused of committing a crime by the president of the United States for not participating in his conspiracy to overturn a fair and honest election.

[06:10:04]

You know, if I were Brad Raffensperger and Ryan Germany, who are honorable people, they should refer this whole matter to the Georgia attorney general and to the U.S. Department of Justice.

I mean, if this is not an impeachable offense, trying to extort state officials to overturn an election, I don't know what the hell is. I mean, this -- the president, frankly, should resign over this one. It would be merciful for all of us for the next 16 days if we didn't have to deal with this -- this national nightmare any longer.

But I mean, this is so completely out of bounds.

And I'm with my friend, Mike Rogers. And can you imagine if a member of Congress had tried to call a state elected official to try to overturn the outcome, and it were publicly revealed? I mean, we'd be under criminal investigation for that in a heartbeat.

Why is it OK for the president of the United States to do this? His lawyers were defeated at every turn. They were beaten like rented mules. And now he's turning to resort to extortion of state officials. This is simply appalling.

CAMEROTA: And Mike, I mean, it's so -- when you hear it with your own ears, it just is so revealing how President Trump does business. He thinks if he believes it, he'll just force you into doing it, basically, is what it sounds like.

And so do you think -- I mean, what you just said is that this is so basically unequivocal, so beyond the pale, that this will or should force the likes of Senator Ted Cruz to reconsider whatever stunt they were planning for this week. Do you think that's going to happen?

DENT: No.

ROGERS: Well, you know, but my wife says I am an eternal optimist and it might be a genetic defect, but I'm hoping that you can (AUDIO GAP) do exactly what happened. And to me, this reveals the president's state of mind in his fight in this -- in this whole process.

And by the way, we have processes, if you don't believe the election was fair --

CAMEROTA: We've already done them!

ROGERS: -- and had the wrong outcome. We have all of that.

CAMEROTA: We did them.

ROGERS: And they went through all of that, and they lost all of that.

And so I don't -- I don't know what argument a member makes on the Senate or House floor that says that these state electors -- by the way, that's where we hold elections, in the states -- that the federal government, that a member of Congress from a different state knows better than the electors of that state.

I mean, I hope that they snap out of this and understand that this is the president flailing for not winning an election. And I honestly believe that he doesn't believe he lost. I -- you listen to that tape, I think he believes he didn't lose.

BERMAN: I want to talk about it.

ROGERS: He can't -- nobody could not vote for Donald Trump. And that's part of my -- my concern here, that you have other member -- elected officials encouraging protests, encouraging that this wasn't fair.

And what that does is it emboldens people who try to interfere with our elections, and have for a long time in this country. Our adversaries are giggling and thinking, thank you for doing the work for us by getting Americans not to believe in a fair election. That's dangerous -- not -- you know, we can mock it here at home, for sure, but --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

ROGERS: -- the international community takes a look at this, and they will make decisions based on this. And they will make decisions on how they target Americans in the future to influence -- we call them influence operations. How they create chaos in elections; how they get people not to believe in a democracy like the United States. And by the way, that propaganda is alive and well all over the world right now, using our own --

BERMAN: Right.

ROGERS: -- actions to promote it. And so, listen, this is bigger than a Senate seat. It's bigger than a

House seat.

BERMAN: We're --

ROGERS: I hope that they sit back and understand about how important this is that we get Americans back to knowing that sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, but the good news in America, you've got four years from now. You can do this again.

BERMAN: We're about to lose Greg. I want to get back to the president's state of mind in just a moment. Because I know that's something that you are particularly concerned about.

CAMEROTA: I mean, he sounds delusional.

BERMAN: And I want to get to that in just a second. But Greg, before that, I just want your take on the Georgia election law here. Let me read you what it says.

This is criminal solicitation, election fraud. "A person commits the offense of criminal solicitation to commit election fraud in the first degree when, with intent, that another person engaged in conduct constituting a felony under this article, he or she solicits, requests, commands, importunes, or otherwise attempts to cause the other person to engage in such conduct."

Go find me 12,000 votes, basically, the president says there, which is why some are suggesting it violates Georgia election law.

What's the secretary of state, Greg, who's been through so much already, what does he think about this, this morning? What does he intend to do?

BLUESTEIN: Yes, he hasn't spoken publicly about this since the tape was released, but there's a member -- a Democratic member of the state election board has called for an investigation into whether or not this -- that demand from the president violated state law.

There are many constitutional experts and legal experts in Georgia who say that it could have violated either extortion laws, anti-extortion laws, or laws that -- that ban people from soliciting election fraud, which, you know, apparently seems to be doing when you're calling for the state's top election official to find about 12,000 votes.

[06:15:19]

BERMAN: All right, Greg, we're going to let you go and do more reporting, because you have a busy two days ahead of you.

Mike, Charlie, we want you to stick around. Because we want to have a discussion about the next 16 days in the United States of America, with a president, whom it is fair to ask this morning whether or not he has lost his grip on reality.

It's not just, you know, Democrats who are concerned this morning, every living former defense secretary has written this new letter condemning the president's actions and talking about what needs to happen next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Developing overnight, new audio captures President Trump demanding that Georgia's election officials find him votes to overturn the results. This morning, many people who have heard this call are asking if President Trump is delusional. Here he is sounding confused and paranoid.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP (via phone): Do you think it's possible that they shredded ballots in Fulton County, because that's what the rumor is. And also, that Dominion took out machines. That Dominion is really moving fast to get rid of their machinery. Do you know anything about that? Because that's illegal.

[06:20:09]

RYAN GERMANY, GENERAL COUNSEL FOR GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE (via phone): This is Ryan Germany. No, Dominion has not moved any machinery out of Fulton County. We're having --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: No, but have they moved -- have they moved the inner parts of the machines and replaced them with other parts?

GERMANY: No.

TRUMP: Are you sure, Ryan?

GERMANY: I'm sure. I'm sure, Mr. President.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Former Republican Congressman Charlie Dent and Mike Rogers are back with us.

Charlie, I mean, if a relative of yours at the holiday Christmas table were saying things like this, you would call a doctor. You'd be worried.

I mean, the inner parts of the machines, Ryan? Are they -- have they come in, secretly, to remove those?

I mean, I don't know what to make of what the president of the United States thinks at this point.

DENT: Yes, his state of mind -- he's obviously in a bad place. This is a very unhealthy, not to mention an undemocratic obsession.

You know, you just almost run out of words to describe, you know, how unfit he is at this moment. You think, you know -- you feel like you need a therapist to deal with this at this point.

And it just -- the delusion is beyond anything that I've ever -- have ever seen. So, what does this -- I mean, the fact that there are members of Congress right now who are trying to kind of enable this further, facilitate this obsession, you know, on Wednesday, is a huge mistake.

I think right now, Republican members of Congress -- we need 140 Republican members of Congress, to stand up and simply state the truth. Tell them what is happening here, that this is simply wrong.

You know, Pat Toomey and Mitt Romney and Adam Kinzinger, who you just played earlier, they're all saying the right things. We need many more to change the narrative by simply stating the truth. So Republican voters realize there is an alternative narrative to this madness that we're dealing with.

I said earlier, it would be merciful if the president would just resign to spare us 16 more days of this insanity.

BERMAN: Everyone needs to go watch "The Caine Mutiny" and watch Humphrey Bogart talk about the frozen strawberries that he thinks were stolen from the mess, because that's sane compared to what the president was talking about there with the inner workings of these voting machines.

And there are 16 days left of this administration, Chairman Rogers, 16 days where Donald Trump has the nuclear codes. Which is why it's so interesting that these ten former defense secretaries, Republicans and Democrats, including partisan Republicans and Democrats, joined together to write this letter saying, you better keep the military out of this. This election has been decided, and don't go anywhere near the military.

They write, "Efforts to involve the U.S. armed forces in resolving election disputes would take us into dangerous, unlawful, and unconstitutional territory. Civilian and military officials who direct or carry out such measures would be accountable, including potentially facing criminal penalties for the grave consequences of their actions on our republic."

This includes Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Jim Mattis, Mike Esper.

Chairman Rogers, why do you think they're so concerned?

ROGERS: Well, I mean, if you listen to this call, as I said, this -- it was more gangster than it was statesmen or politician or diplomat or president.

And here's the other thing that worried me when I saw the -- the ten secretaries of state come out. The joint chief came out about a few days ago and also issued a statement about keeping the military out of this election, which to me says that there was a conversation somewhere in the machinery of the White House that talked about, is this a possibility? Even if it was a question asked. And it raised enough for the joint chief to come out and say

something, which that -- that was concerning, and now you see this letter from the ten secretaries of state. It tells me that somebody got on the phone and said, Hey, we need a little help here to try to make sure that this does not come to fruition.

And that's, again, what makes this dangerous.

And those members who are facilitating the further conversation that this thing is wrong allows someone in the White House to ask the question, even if they had to intent to do it, but they -- somebody asked the question. And that's what's so dangerous.

Listen, this democracy survives, because we have a good, healthy fight. We have disagreements. We air those -- those disagreements. As a matter of fact, it's -- politics has gotten a lot more personal. So you go through the weathering personal attacks. And then an election happens. And then it is certified.

And that's what the process should be today, because the states certified those elections. And any discussion, even internally, about using the military to do something different than their constitutional role is wrong.

CAMEROTA: It's chilling.

ROGERS: And it means that you are violating your own constitutional oath, for all of those folks who stuck up their right hand and said that they would serve in these important jobs and defend the republic against enemies, foreign and domestic.

[06:25:05]

CAMEROTA: Yes, I mean, Congressman Dent, I think that Chairman Rogers is hitting on something. It's chilling to think that they had to do this. And we don't have all of the information about why these former defense secretaries felt the need to write write the letter, saying that the military should not be involved in resolving whatever election dispute. They must know something. Why would they spend their weekend banding together to write a letter, a public letter, a message to America and to the White House?

And so, you know, we're passed the point of being able to put anything past President Trump. And so, what do you hear in their warning?

DENT: Well, I think their warning is a broadside right across -- right across the bow of acting Defense Secretary Chris Miller. Clearly, these honorable former defense secretaries are concerned that Miller may try to politicize the armed forces in a way that it has never been done, to get them involved with helping to settle an election dispute.

So I believe the secretaries of defense are alarmed that they see that this Chris Miller, they must have no confidence or faith in him or some of the other political appointees, presumably civilian political appointees, who may be in the Defense Department, just doing the president's bidding. And again, as former secretaries of defense, they are beyond alarmed.

So we ought to -- we ought to take this very, very seriously. And I -- and I would hope that the members of Congress, you know, who are going to participate in that kamikaze mission on Wednesday, you know, would cease and desist and run the other way.

I mean, I think that's what these guys are doing. They're trying to tell everybody to stop. Count the votes, keep the military out of it, and you know, let's get on with the transition.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Congressman Dent, Chairman Rogers, thank you both very much. We really appreciate your perspective on all of this.

ROGERS: Thanks for having us.

DENT: Thanks, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK. Now to coronavirus. The delays in the vaccine rollout have health officials considering giving half doses. How will that speed anything up? Is that a good idea? We have all the latest details for you, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)