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Rep. Ken Buck (R-CO) Interviewed On Joint Statement With Other Republican Members Of Congress On The Role Of Congress In Presidential Election Certification; Recording Released Of President Trump Pressuring Georgia Secretary Of State Brad Raffensperger To Change Presidential Election Results; Donald Trump Demands Georgia Officials Find Votes To Overturn Results Of Election. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired January 04, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But it's a big problem in Georgia, and it's not a problem that's going away. It's not a problem that's going away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Moments ago, the Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger spoke out for the first time about this call, repeating that President Trump was flat out wrong about his unending fantasy claims here.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: So what will this do to the House and Senate Republicans who were planning to impede and object to the counting of the electoral votes for President-elect Joe Biden? Well, at least 140 House Republicans were expected to attempt this stunt. How that they hear these audio tapes, will they still side with corruption? Seven members of the Republican conference oppose their effort in a joint statement.

BERMAN: Joining us now is Republican Congressman Ken Buck from Colorado. He is one of the cosigners of that statement. Congressman Buck, thanks so much for being with us this morning. The Georgia thing has come to light since you wrote this letter, and I want to talk about that in a second.

But I want to focus on the letter itself, because you make what is really a discrete and important constitutional argument about the role of Congress this Wednesday, January 6th. Specifically what is Congress' job in terms of the electoral votes on Wednesday?

REP. KEN BUCK (R-CO): Well the 12th Amendment makes it pretty clear that Congress has the job of counting the votes after the vice president, the president of the Senate, opens the envelopes. And that is Congress' job. It is not to second guess the state legislatures.

It's not to second guess the secretary of state or the governor's signature on those ballots, on the information that has been sent to us. It is simply to count votes. And you would think that a body that could create $30 trillion of debt could count a few hundred electors. You think they could do that properly.

BERMAN: Their job, your job is to simply count the votes. That is what the Constitution says. There is an 1887 law which goes into greater detail about the process itself, but who has, according to the Constitution, the exclusive role to choose or appoint the electors?

BUCK: It's obviously the states, and it's the voters of the states that make that decision. Now, I have to tell you, I am concerned about voter fraud. I don't believe that there is widespread voter fraud. The attorney general of the United States has looked at these elections in these six states, and has opined that there was not widespread voter fraud.

If you can't trust Bill Barr to make that kind of judgment, I don't know who you can trust. If you can't trust the Department of Justice to look at this election and render an unbiased, fair verdict, then we have more serious problems.

But you have to recognize also, there were millions of voters who now believe, millions of Americans who now believe that there was an unfair election. I think our job has to be to go in and do what the Constitution tells us, count the votes, and render that. But I also think that there should be an examination at some point about how we make our election process more fair and credible so the American people trust it more.

BERMAN: You do note, though, that five of the six states that are most in question right now have Republican legislators and Republican governors, sometimes both, there are judges, federal and state judges, including many Republican appointees, who have all looked at this. What have they all unanimously found when presented with these claims that somehow the election was not on the up and up?

BUCK: Yes, they have found instances of voter fraud, but they have not found widespread voter fraud. And most of the allegations are speculation and, really, hearsay as to what could have happened or what might have happened. But the truth is that you're absolutely right, five of the state legislatures, the House and the Senate from these six states, the House and the Senate are controlled by Republicans, and if they had wanted to send us an alternate slate, they could have done that. They didn't.

BERMAN: What are the other Republican members of Congress, and again, I hope people realize, and I had a chance to cover one of your elections a few years ago in Colorado, you're no soft conservative here. You're no soft supporter of the president here at all. You are not coming from some moderate, squishy position on any of this.

You just are trying to follow, in your mind, the Constitution. Chip Roy from Texas is in a similar position. He stood up in Congress yesterday and he signed this letter along with you, and he said, look, if you're going to object to the presidential election in these six states, how can you members of Congress from those states sit here and say your elections were fair? What did you make of that? BUCK: That's a great point. I was standing next to Chip and made the

argument with Chip. And I have to tell you something, over and over, the members who claim that the elections in their own states were unfair as to the president, accepted the oath of office yesterday, were sworn in as Congress, and a lot of them tweeted out how proud they were that the voters of their district, of their state elected them.

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So they didn't find any fraud as to their own election, but then they are alleging that there is fraud, or agreeing with the president that there is fraud as to the presidential election. It seems a little inconsistent.

BERMAN: "Hypocritical" is another word, isn't it?

BUCK: It's certainly a word in the dictionary. I used the word "inconsistent." They are my friends, and I think they're inconsistent.

BERMAN: Fair enough.

Listen, we have this audiotape from Georgia now, where the president of the United States called the elected Republican secretary of state from Georgia and said I just want to find 11,780 votes. I just want to find 1,780 votes. What were your feelings when you heard that?

BUCK: I have to tell you, my feeling was that the Republican secretary of state in Georgia and the Republican governor in Georgia and the Republican Party in Georgia deserve a lot of credit for making sure that they ran a fair election, that they were bound by the results of that election, and that they have told the world that they have gone -- they have done recounts, they have audited, they have gone to really tremendous extent to make sure that everybody understands that that election was credible. And I give them a lot of credit for making sure that they have not wavered in their duties and the oath they took to the people of Georgia.

BERMAN: Two very quick questions. Do you think that the release of this audiotape will have any impact on your colleagues who may be trying to object to the count on Wednesday?

BUCK: I don't know. They claim they have 140. I don't know, they may have more, they may have less. I'm not sure. I don't think there is actually a formal whip count on this. So I just don't know what the number will be, what it was before and what it will be in the future.

BERMAN: And finally, just what is your message to the president of the United States, again, someone who you supported through a lot of this over the last few years. What's your message for the president this morning on the language he is using and the things that he is asking for?

BUCK: Yes, I think it's really important that Republicans come together and that Republicans understand that the election in Georgia is really very important. And I think it's important to America. We want to make sure that the, this country does not lurch to the left again, that we have a fair and balanced governor, that only the best proposals proceed, and that means that the two Senate candidates in Georgia should be reelected, and that we should have that balance, that firewall to make sure that good proposals move forward, but radical proposals do not. And so let's focus on the elections in Georgia and getting Republicans elected.

BERMAN: I just want to bring up one last point here, because you write about this in your letter. One of your actual concerns here is that if you overturn the Electoral College now, that's something the Democrats might try to do in the future, correct?

BUCK: Well, the Electoral College is under attack by the left, and I think it's important that conservatives and Americans stand up for this idea that the founders had that gave rural America a voice in presidential elections. So I absolutely do not think we should do anything that undermines the electoral college.

BERMAN: Congressman Ken Buck from Colorado, we appreciate your time this morning. Thanks for being with us.

BUCK: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Joining us now are CNN White House Correspondent, John Harwood, CNN global affairs analyst Susan Glasser, and CNN contributor and Republican election lawyer Ben Ginsberg. Great to have all of you here. Let's start, Ben, with what we've just heard from John's conversation with Congressman Ken Buck. So he spelled out why he can't go along with what other Republicans in Congress are going to attempt to do this week. You've heard the audiotapes. You heard Congressman Ken Buck's rationale. Tell us what the law is here.

BEN GINSBERG, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, the law is that Donald Trump may have wandered into a criminal violation. But the reality is more the constitutional and political ones of the votes they're going to be taking on Wednesday. What Ken Buck was making and the seven other House members, six other House members, was a constitutional argument, that the role of Congress is not to do what the president wants.

The tape itself is much more of an argument that will go to the way Republican members are trying to think about their vote, and it's got to be making them cringe, which Ken Buck hinted, but of course won't confirm.

BERMAN: It was the interesting the way he talked about that. These are two separate things in a way, what happened in Georgia and what --

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CAMEROTA: But one might influence the other. You'd think --

BERMAN: They might. They might. That's what Adam Kinzinger said overnight. He said, how can you object now? But Ben, I just want to get, again, the legalities of whether or not the president violated the law and committed election fraud there, it's interesting, it can be discussed, but just to be clear, you find what he did morally repugnant. Why?

GINSBERG: It's morally repugnant because a candidate, especially a president of the United States calling up a state official and telling him to jigger the results because he didn't like the way they turned out is about as anti-democratic and really anti-American as it can possibly get.

And this is the person we're looking to for leadership in the country, and I think Republicans are going to look at what Donald Trump did and realize that the omnipresent force that they think he's going to be is fading in this. He's traipsing in illegal territory. He's asking for improper things. He's about to face a comeuppance on the COVID situation and his lack of leadership there. And why Republicans think he's going to be such a strong presence for the next four years and into 2024 is, I think, starting to crumble.

CAMEROTA: Susan, to hear the president in his own words, it just gives you such insight into his entire modus operandi. He tries to bully, he tries to intimidate, he tries to threaten with some sort of legal action, he tries to cajole. So here is the moment where he's talking to Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger and suggesting that something bad might happen to Brad Raffensperger if he doesn't go along with this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The ballots are corrupt. And you're going to find that they are, which is totally illegal. It's more illegal for them than it is for them, because you know what they did and you're not reporting it. That's a criminal offense. And you can't let that happen. That's a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer, that's a big risk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: If someone had a weaker spine, Susan, than Brad Raffensperger, who throughout this hour call pushes back, no, Mr. President, that's not true. You don't have the right facts, your data is wrong, calmly, I don't know what would have happened.

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Look, you have to listen to that, and you have to wonder, it's an important reporting question, how many other phone calls like this has the president made since the election to other officials? Apparently, this is not the first time he's tried to reaches Raffensperger, who seemed prepared and taped this phone call as a result of concerns about what the president of the United States would say.

But I think it really, this entire controversy, you listen to Trump in private, and frankly, it's a lot of the same conspiracy theories that he's been spreading in public ever since. That's the fascinating thing about the scandal of Trump. Unlike Richard Nixon, who I think Americans were genuinely shocked when they found out after the fact about his expletive-laden racism, his conspiracy theories, his rants.

He tried in public to present a different kind of image. Donald Trump in private and public has been remarkably consistent in the nature of his conspiracy theories, disinformation, the way in which he bullies and intimidates others. It's really striking. What's amazing is that it's the president of the United States.

But to the point about the Republican Party, they've always had a choice. And many of the people who are pushing back on Trump, as with the congressman that you just interviewed, are supporters of his. It's never too late to stand up and make a choice here.

BERMAN: It was interesting hearing Ken Buck there. He went further than I, frankly, thought he was going to on the president's claims. John Harwood one of the things that was suggested earlier in the show was that the president has lost the election. Now it's clear he's lost his mind. That may be the most charitable explanation for what happened on that phone call, because either he's delusional or he's criminal. Isn't that the choice here?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: John, I think you're exactly right in how you frame that. If you listen to that phone call and read the transcript of that phone call, the president of the United States is babbling like somebody you would find sitting in the middle of the street saying he's really the king of Neverland and he just needs a ride to his castle.

The kindest thing you can say about the president is that some mental or psychological incapacity prevents him from understanding what he's actually doing. Otherwise, it is simply a straight-up request that Brad Raffensperger commit election fraud on his behalf. Whether that's technically a crime, whether it could be proven, a criminal offense could be proven, if it were charged, those are questions Ben Ginsberg could answer. But he's obviously doing -- if he understands what he's doing, he's obviously doing something wrong.

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And the question for the Republican Party is, are they going to stand up? Or are they going to say, it is okay with me that this President of the United States is behaving in this way, and that he is trying to overturn the results of a democratic election with this way.

CAMEROTA: Guys, stick around if you would. We have many more questions because there was also this stunning rebuke from every former living Defense Secretary, including two of President Trump's. Their strong warning about what might happen next and why they felt compelled to put off this public letter this weekend. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: So this stunning new audio captures President Trump demanding that Georgia Secretary of State find votes to overturn his election defeat. Again, everything you're about to hear basically is a lie.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The other thing -- dead people, so dead people voted, and I think the number is in the prime -- or close to 5,000 people, and they went to obituaries, they went to all sorts of methods to come up with an accurate number.

It doesn't pass the smell test because we hear they are shredding thousands and thousands of ballots. And now what they are saying, oh, we're just cleaning up the office. You know, I don't think they're cleaning.

The ballots that corrupt and you're going to find that they are -- and which is totally illegal. It's -- it's more illegal for you than it is for them because you know what they did and you're not reporting it. That's it. You know that's a criminal offense.

And you know, you can't let that happen.

Flipping the state is a great testament to our country because, you know, this -- this -- this just -- it's a testament that they can admit to a mistake or whatever you want to call it, if it was a mistake. I don't know. A lot of people think it wasn't a mistake. It was much more criminal than that.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

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BERMAN: All right, back with us, John Harwood, Susan Glasser and Ben Ginsberg. And overnight, something else happened, which is remarkable, and I think directly related to what we are now hearing out loud from the President of the United States, which is that 10 former -- all the living, former Secretaries of Defense, signed a joint letter, this op- ed in "The Washington Post," basically saying they are concerned now about what they're seeing, and that the election has been decided.

These secretaries write, "Efforts to involve the U.S. Armed Forces in resolving election disputes would take us into dangerous, unlawful and unconstitutional territory. Civilian and military leaders who direct or carry out such measures will be accountable, including potentially facing criminal penalties for the grave consequences of their actions on our Republic."

This includes Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Jim Mattis, and Mike Esper.

Susan, the question that we have this morning is why did they feel it was so important and necessary to write this? Why are they concerned that the military might be in play?

GLASSER: Well, that's right. As much as the contents of this op-ed, what's remarkable about is the fact that it exists at all, and in fact, actually, William Perry tweeted that the idea for this came from Dick Cheney, himself, you know, certainly the personification of a hardline, conservative, and I think that they are alarmed.

Remember, Donald Trump has repeatedly expressed interest in invoking Insurrection Act, going back to the Black Lives Matter protests. I have spoken myself with a very senior current and former Pentagon officials who are very worried about what it is the President has been doing since the election. We know that he even spoke with Mike Flynn, his former National

Security Adviser in the Oval Office about could he invoke Martial Law. Flynn had this insane idea that somehow he would do that, and then we conduct a revote of the election.

This was actually discussed in the Oval Office, which to me, remains one of the most remarkable things of an absolutely remarkable period. So I think the fact that an op-ed like this is written is something we should take very seriously. It is so unusual.

CAMEROTA: Susan, that's such a great point. And Ben, they didn't do this on a lark. I mean, for them to come together, as Susan points out, to do this, they are clearly concerned. They clearly want the American public in this open letter to understand something and you know, there are still 16 days left.

And when you hear the President -- again, it's connected -- when you hear the audio tape of this call, and you hear how delusional he is and how much he has gone down the rabbit hole of all of these QAnon conspiracy theories, it's just very troubling to let your imagination go with what you think could happen in the next 16 days.

GINSBERG: Well, it certainly isn't that they wrote this letter before this unglued tape came out is particularly concerning.

Now, the way this letter may have an impact on Republican Members of Congress who are going to vote on Wednesday is that a strong military has always been a hallmark of what Donald Trump says he is about.

And to have all the living former Defense Secretaries write this letter, saying that that he is antithetical to what the country should be and what a strong military should be, is, I think, a really telling blow.

And so if any of the Republicans want to get off the train that they've gotten on defending Donald Trump, both the tape and this letter give them strong reasons to do that.

BERMAN: Some people have jumped off the train, I have to say in different ways in varying degrees. You know, Tom Cotton, John, will not sign on to this effort with 12 other Republican senators. Ken Buck, I am just so struck by what Ken Buck said in the stridency, with what he said about the President being off base here in Georgia, and what he is asking in general.

The Lieutenant Governor of Georgia with Alisyn, a short time ago. Alisyn was asking, what's this going to do to the Georgia Senate runoff tomorrow? He said, clearly not going to help.

I mean, how much discomfort and vocal discomfort do you think we'll see over the next 24 hours?

HARWOOD: Look, it's obviously a low bar, but you have to take some encouragement from the fact that some officials at the state level and at the Federal level are stepping up to defend the results of an American election. But it is obvious that these former Defense Secretaries and members of

both parties believe that President Trump is not just crazy, not just desperate, but also dangerous.

Remember, he is the Commander-in-Chief for another 16 days. He is somebody whose administration sent Federal force on peaceful protesters to clear a path for him to walk across the street and hold up a Bible and have his picture taken.

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HARWOOD: So the country since then, by the way, The Pentagon officials have backed away from President Trump and put some distance there. We've heard from Mark Milley and others in the military saying, we have no role.

And I think what you heard from Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ash Carter and a bunch of others, is bucking up those people in the National Security apparatus to say, we're behind you, we're with you. Stand up and prevent something terrible from being done.

But the country is stuck with Donald Trump for another two weeks. It is a very unsettled situation. He has raised an air of menace around the arguments that he is pushing. He told Brad Raffensperger on that call, people are angry. He is angry.

He is trying to make his supporters angry. He is calling on them to Washington. And it is -- it's a combustible situation. What we can hope is that the few voices in the Republican Party that have stood up can exercise some calm over the state of affairs we find ourselves in.

CAMEROTA: Susan, for people who are just waking up, we should play one of the portions where President Trump sounds particularly delusional.

He is confused and he is casting about -- he is talking about the Dominion voting machines, but he doesn't exactly know what he objects to. So, here's this moment.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TRUMP: Do you think it's possible that they shredded ballots in Fulton County? Because that's what the rumor is. And also that Dominion took out machines -- that Dominion is really moving fast to get rid of their machinery. Do you know anything about that? Because that's illegal, right?

RYAN GERMANY, LAWYER REPRESENTING GEORGIA'S SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE: Ryan Germany. No. Dominion has not removed machinery out of Fulton County. We are having a --

TRUMP: But have they moved? Have they -- have they moved the inner parts of the machines and replaced them with other parts?

GERMANY: No.

TRUMP: Are you sure, Ryan? GERMANY: I'm sure. I'm sure, Mr. President.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Susan, it's incoherent.

GLASSER: Honestly, Alisyn, it's painful to listen to this. This is the President of the United States who sounds desperate. He sounds fantastical.

You know, it is Rudy Giuliani's words coming out of Donald Trump's mouth in this in excerpt that you played for us. And I think it just underscores that this is not only the culmination of President Trump's vain and destructive crusade against the election defeat that the voters resoundingly dealt him in November, but that he's been empowered and enabled by people with whom he surrounded himself who have fed him false information, who have continued to allow him to spread that.

Remember, Mark Meadows, the Chief of Staff of the White House is on this phone call. He seems to be encouraging Donald Trump.

These people should be accountable for their actions as well. Donald Trump without this entire coterie of supporters and enablers and people spreading untruths would just be an old man shouting at the TV.

BERMAN: Which he will be in 16 days. Susan Glasser, Ben Ginsberg, and John Harwood, thank you all very much.

The U.S. this morning lagging far behind its goal of having 20 million Americans vaccinated. So what is the Federal plan? We're going to ask the Chief Adviser of Operation Warp Speed, next.

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