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Trump Pressures VP Pence Ahead of Electoral College Vote Count; House Majority Whip Rep. James Clyburn (D-SC) Interviewed on House Republicans Attempts to Delay Presidential Vote Certification and Biden Transition Process. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired January 05, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Mr. Trump promised he would present evidence of his conspiracy theories, but he did not. Instead, he spent most of his 90 minutes on stage spewing more delusional conspiracy theories and attacking Georgia's Republican officials for not helping him overturn his loss.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So the president's effort to overthrow the election out in broad daylight took a new twist. A veiled threat, really even not that veiled, to Vice President Pence who will preside as the electoral votes are counted in Congress tomorrow. The president said he hopes Pence will, quote, come through. So what does that mean? Well, Maggie Haberman from "The New York Times" reports that Mr. Trump had directly pressed Mr. Pence to find an alternative to certifying Mr. Biden's win, such as preventing him from having 270 electoral votes and letting the election be thrown to the House to decide.

So the big problem with that is the Constitution, which gives Pence no power to do anything even close. His job is to count out loud.

Let's begin, though, where the voting is under way in Georgia, two Senate seats up for grabs. CNN's Ryan Young live in Cobb County with the very latest. Ryan, what are you seeing?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You just think about the energy behind all this, a lot of people who live here, obviously, are tired of all the political ads, the robocalls that have been coming in nonstop. And if you think about this, the president-elect was here yesterday, and the president was here to try to make that final campaign push.

There was a line this morning that wrapped around this building at 7:00 a.m. When they opened that door people flowed in very quickly to cast this vote. Let's also not forget everyone is wearing the masks, that's a good thing because of COVID-19. One of the candidates in this, David Perdue is actually home in quarantine because of all the COVID restrictions and an exposure that he had. But we actually bumped into a voter who went through this. First of all, what was the process like, and why was it so important for you to be here today?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it was very easy. I just kind of walked in, I didn't have to wait in line. I picked up my stylus, gave them my I.D., walked right over. So it was a very easy process. What brought me here, I'm a two-time breast cancer survivor. Health care was a huge issue for me, so it was very important for me to get out, put my vote in because I wanted to make sure that I got to keep my health care and a lot of the other people that I work with and advocate for make sure they get to keep their health care as well.

YOUNG: Can you tell people across this country what this has been like for the last 30 days in this state in terms of all the eyes on this election?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my goodness. Guys, I went through my text messages this morning, I had 15 text messages telling me to come out and vote. It was so many phone calls, even just yesterday I know I had about 10 calls. So it was just back to back constant reminders, hey, get out and vote. And it was kind of good because it really forced me to get out here. I'm like, do you know what, I'm going to get out and vote. But if I got one more message I may have not came, because it was so much. It was overwhelming a little bit. But I'm glad they put the work in and got the voters out here.

YOUNG: Thank you so much for stopping and talking with us, have a great day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, it was a pleasure.

YOUNG: Absolutely. So when you think about this, over $500 million was spent on this election, and you can feel the energy as people come in. Two poll watchers are also here, one Republican and one Democrat, they've been watching all day. This county in particular has been trending more to the blue side over the last few years, so it's been interesting to see how this all wraps up. Guys?

CAMEROTA: Also very interesting to hear that there is a fine line between prodding people and pissing them off. Thank you, Ryan, very much.

YOUNG: Absolutely.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: Hundreds of thousands of votes have already been cast in Fulton County, that's Georgia's most populous county, and that's why we find CNN's Gary Tuchman. What's the situation like there now, Gary?

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, when we talked about an hour ago when the polls opened, it was like the gates opening at a thoroughbred racetrack. People raced in to vote. There are about 50 people waiting in line outside, and now the morning rush is over. There are only a few voters inside but, alas, don't think that's because there's going to be a light turnout in this election, because we are already at record numbers. You just alluded to it, Alisyn, but here in Fulton County, Georgia, which is the largest county in state population, 1 million, here in Atlanta, the biggest city in the state, here in this cathedral of St. Philip polling place in the bucket section of Atlanta, there have been huge numbers of people who have already voted. We are talking in Fulton County right now of at least 390,000 people

who have early voted. To put that into context, in November, in the presidential election here in Fulton County, 524,000 people voted. Now, I don't want to sound like an accountant, but I love math so let me explain this to you. Even before the polls opened today, almost 75 percent of the total number of presidential voters had voted early in this runoff election.

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And that's kind of unheard of because runoff elections, which are few and far between in the United States, are usually met with apathy. The reason these runoff elections are taking place is because none of the candidates received 50 percent of the vote in the general election, and then the two top candidates have to run in a runoff election. What we have statewide so far more than 3 million people in the peach state have already voted. The record for a runoff election in Georgia Senate runoff history was 2.1 million people, and that was total vote, not early vote, total vote. So the record was already set before the doors opened today. It was crowded this morning. What we saw in the state of Ohio, that's where I was during the general election, the morning was very busy, the lunchtime was very busy, the end of the day was very busy, but it didn't matter because so many early votes were cast in Ohio and so many early votes have been cast here in the state of Georgia. John, back to you.

BERMAN: Interesting to see, Gary. Please keep us posted.

Joining me now is House Majority Whip Congressman Jim Clyburn. He is also the chair of the Biden Presidential Inaugural Committee. Congressman, thanks so much for being with us today. All eyes are on Georgia. The world is converging on Georgia, not just the Senate runoffs, but that of course is where President Trump placed a phone call over the weekend trying to convince the Republican secretary of state to flip votes from the presidential election, to overturn the outcome of that election. Now there are Democrats in the House of Representatives calling for an impeachment investigation into the president of the United States for that. Where do you stand?

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): Well, thank you very much for having me. First of all, I do believe with only 14 or 15 days left in this presidency, it would be a waste of our time here in the House to pursue impeachment. I suspect if all that I heard on this tape is to be investigated, there could very well be criminal charges brought by state and local governments down there in Georgia, both state and of course Atlanta. And I would hope that that would be pursued. That is something that can be pursued even after January 20th.

I would hope that the House of Representatives would spend its time concentrating on getting ready for this new administration and getting our house in order, in order to deliver for the American people, so that we can get beyond this pandemic. We have got to do something within the first 90 to 100 days to get people vaccinated, to get people comfortable with the vaccinations, and that's where I think our energy ought to be. BERMAN: Before you get to do any of that, tomorrow you are part of

the constitutionally mandated gathering, both Houses of Congress will gather, to count the electoral votes. That's your job, to count the electoral votes, to hear them counted out loud. Now, by law, Republicans can object to some of the electoral slates from certain states. How do Democrats plan to respond to these objections?

CLYBURN: I would hope our response would be in the dignified way that we have been conducting ourselves thus far, and that is to allow the process to roll out. Now, we know that the only thing they can do here is prolong the process, pontificate, do all the kinds of things that will keep us here hour upon hour. But in the final analysis, this has already been decided. These electoral votes have been cast, they have been boxed up, and they will only be opened during this process, and the results will be read. We know what the results are. So there's not going to be any change in any of that, and for the president to be calling upon the vice president to do something to unravel this is just beyond the pale.

BERMAN: How do you think the vice president will handle the pressure? What are you expecting to see from him tomorrow?

CLYBURN: Well, I hope that Vice President Pence, especially if he has aspirations for the future, will carry out his responsibilities in a way that's becoming of a vice presidency, which would be a tremendous contrast into the way our president is carrying out his duties and responsibilities.

BERMAN: Do you anticipate arguing with the Republicans who make the objections to the electoral states? There will be two hours debate in each chamber over each objection. Will Democrats fight back?

CLYBURN: Well, I think Democrats have -- and I talked to some of them last night who will be speaking. They are going to just be laying out for the American people exactly what the process is all about, exactly what the Constitution says.

[08:10:01]

and they are going to be providing -- and I've always called the hall of the House America's classroom. And so I hope that all the Democrats will take this opportunity to help educate and inform the American people on what this process is all about, what the Constitution dictates, so that they can draw a contrast in between what we're doing and what the Republicans are doing to the contrary.

BERMAN: You brought up Vice President Mike Pence. We know from Maggie Haberman's reporting the president has been pressuring the vice president to try to gum this up somehow, to keep Joe Biden from getting the 270 electoral votes. The Constitution doesn't give Pence the power to do this, I get that, but how will you respond if for some reason or somehow the vice president goes off script?

CLYBURN: I don't know how those people will be having discussions and will be carrying on the debate on the House floor, that is providing we have that. Now, as you know, we've got up to two hours on each objection, and the Senate will do its business and the House will do its business.

I'm trying to make a determination, though, as whether or not the vice president will stay on the house side or go over the Senate while they have the debate. This is one thing I'm not very clear about. I do know this -- when the objections are raised, we carry two hours of debate in the House, they carry two hours of debate in the Senate, and the question then becomes where is the vice president while all this is going on in two separate houses? So my expert friends have not been able to tell me exactly where he would be during this two separate discussions.

BERMAN: Two very quick questions on the Biden transition. You haven't been shy about weighing in on his cabinet picks. Do you have an opinion on who he should select for attorney general?

CLYBURN: Yes, and I have shared it with him.

BERMAN: Will you please share it with us?

CLYBURN: No, I'm not going to.

BERMAN: Will you please give us a word that rhymes with the person you have suggested to president-elect Biden?

(LAUGHTER)

CLYBURN: Good try, but I do believe, and I've said this over and over again, I am much more concerned about the philosophy, the vision of these nominees, than I am about gender and skin color. You know how I feel about that, I've made that very public, and I know a lot of people who look like me whose vision for the future of this country do not coincide with my vision, and I would love to see somebody who coincides with my vision, and I have shared that with the vice president and the president-elect. And I think he will conduct himself in the way that will make us all proud.

BERMAN: Two very quick questions on the inauguration. You are helping running the inauguration committee for the president-elect. I know it's going to be a virtual parade. Will we see the vice president walk down Pennsylvania Avenue, or then he will be president Joe Biden, walk down Pennsylvania Avenue as we have seen since Jimmy Carter was president?

CLYBURN: I don't know. I do know this, that can be done in a way that social distancing can take place. Whether or not security and other things will dictate that that will be allowed, I do not know. As you know, this president has been calling for people to come to Washington to demonstrate on the sixth, tomorrow. He might just be calling for the same kind of thing to take place on the 20th. So I suspect the security will be a thing to consider, but I know it could be done, socially distancing, but no decision has been made on that that I'm aware of.

BERMAN: OK. And very finally, former President Trump on January 20th, normally the former president departing Washington is something that is choreographed. Are plans in place with you and your committee for his departure?

CLYBURN: Well, we've been discussing the what ifs. What if he shows up, what if he doesn't show up? And so we have not finalized those plans, but I do know that we are talking about a lot of what ifs.

BERMAN: Congressman Jim Clyburn, range of subjects this morning. We do appreciate your time. Thanks so much for being with us.

CLYBURN: Thank you very much for having me.

BERMAN: As we said, a lot going on today, including two Senate runoffs in Georgia as well. CNN's special coverage of election night in America begins at 4:00 p.m. eastern time today.

So we were just talking about Vice President Mike Pence, the ceremonial role he will play tomorrow. His loyalty to President Trump will be tested, but more importantly, his loyalty to the Constitution and democracy will be tested. Which side will he choose?

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I hope Mike Pence comes through for us, I have to tell you. I hope that our great vice president, our great vice president, comes through for us. He is a great guy. Of course, if he doesn't come through, I won't like him quite as much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: That was President Trump publicly pressuring Vice President Mike Pence to try to throw the election results his way, when Pence presides over the Electoral College count tomorrow.

The vice president's role is purely ceremonial. He has no authority to change election results. White House cameras captured the president speaking to Pence in the Oval Office, shortly before he left for Georgia.

Now to help us read lips, noted lip reader, CNN commentator and former Republican congressman, Charlie Dent. Also with us, CNN White House correspondent, John Harwood.

Gentlemen, great to see you.

John Harwood, I will go to you first. What was President Trump saying to Mike Pence in that Oval Office meeting and what is Pence going to do tomorrow?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: He was telling Pence I want you to step up to the plate and help me, kind of like later in the speech he said, well, I'm disappointed in the Supreme Court, you know, three members of whom he has appointed because they haven't stepped up to the plate. The problem with Donald Trump is that he has driven the Republican Party into this cul-de-sac, there is no exit from it, he has lost.

Everyone is sort of pretending as they drive around in circles that they're going to get to some better destination but they're not.

[08:20:05]

And so, I don't know how Mike Pence is going to handle it. Maybe it will be one of these deals like you remember Steve Harvey in the beauty pageant, he called out the wrong winner or the Oscars where they announced the wrong best picture and then they did an oops and corrected it. You know, maybe he will do some of that and faint and walk off the -- walk out of the capitol and the Senate pro temp will get up and read the card for him.

It's impossible to know. But Donald Trump's needs are so great that eventually they break everyone because you can't be as crazy as he is and take the pretense as far if you're living in the world of reality as most of them still are.

BERMAN: The best outcome, the best outcome, would be for Mike Pence to award the presidency to la-la land. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Charlie, the problem with all of this is the Constitution. That the president is pressuring the vice president of the United States to break the law. It needs to be alarming to the American people.

It's not going to work, okay? Joe Biden will be president on January 20th. Tomorrow after what could be a long night Joe Biden -- the electoral votes will be counted and Mike Pence will declare Joe Biden the winner because he has to constitutionally, but the fact that the president of the United States is trying to undermine democracy is something that needs to be alarming.

CHARLIE DENT, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, yes, John. And this is more -- the president's behavior is more than offensive, it's really grotesque and an obscenity to our system of government. I mean, there is no way to state it or to state it.

By the way, this whole notion of pressuring the vice president -- I mean, the president is going out there telling people who aren't prepared to go on this kamikaze mission, who aren't prepared to be lemmings with suicide vests. He's calling them surrenderers. That's what he's doing, and capitulators.

And, by the way, I was called that in 2013 by a bunch of people because I didn't go on that suicide mission of shutting down the government back then. But this is what they do, if you don't agree with them they call you names. And sadly, you know, there are members with whom I have spoken that are mortified by this.

The reckoning within the Republican Party I think is now coming. Maybe this is the inflection point, Wednesday's vote on the objection to the electoral votes, that and this Georgia situation where the president has clearly committed a blatant act of corruption for all of us to see. So we are in a really bad place.

CAMEROTA: Yesterday, Charlie, on the show, you suggested that Brad Raffensperger who was on the receiving end of that corrupt request on the phone call immediately refer the case to the Georgia attorney general or even to the department of justice and we just had -- John just talked to Congressman Jim Clyburn on who basically just said it's time to move on, it's time to focus on coronavirus and we haven't gotten any indication certainly from Brad Raffensperger's office, I think he said just to the contrary, that he's not going to do anything.

I mean, this is the point that we are at where such shocking jaw dropping things happen but so many other jaw-dropping things happen that no action comes from it.

DENT: Well, look, I mean, this president has no boundaries. And I was a chairman of the House Ethics Committee. We used to have to educate some folks about boundaries. You know, there is the personal side of your life, there is the official side of your life and there is the campaign side of your life.

And with the president, you know, they are just all blurred. I mean, I don't think he sees any separation. It's all a big muddle. Again, I talked to a guy last night who was an FBI agent and I said, you know, had a member of Congress done this, what would happen? You guys would be crawling up their back sides of course we would be.

I mean, this is what I guess is so stunning to me and so shocking because Trump does it they say it's just Donald Trump, he believes his own nonsense, that, therefore, that's sort of a justification. Well, you know, I believe all the money in the bank is mine that means I should be able to take it, right? Well, of course not.

I mean, this is what we're dealing w this is the false reality that he seems to be living in, and he tries to drag so many other people who know better into this false reality and good for Tom Cotton and others for standing up and pushing back on this because they're taking their oath seriously.

BERMAN: So, John Harwood, I want to talk about Georgia for a second. It strikes me that the stakes are high, obviously high for Joe Biden if the Democrats win both runoffs the Democrats will control the Senate, it will be easier for him at the beginning to get nominees confirmed and deal with his agenda.

But I think the stakes are high for president Trump as well in terms of legacy, because they if lose, if Republicans lose both these seats I have to believe that there is just going to be a mass exodus or will there be a mass exodus from Trumpism pretty quickly.

HARWOOD: I don't think, John, that it's particularly important to Donald Trump. First of all, Donald Trump could care less if Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue win.

[08:25:00] In fact, if he lose -- if they lose and they're both slightly trailing in the polls, very close race -- nobody knows who is going to win. But if they do lose, he will be calling them chumps and stiffs and morons tomorrow. He'll be calling Mitch McConnell a surrender caucus moron.

He doesn't care about any person on this earth except for himself. And he has managed because of the nature of his appeal to persuade a significant number of Republicans, a large number, most of them, to listen to what he says.

I think that Donald Trump in some ways, he would like to see those Republican senators lose because the thing that's killing him because he is a prisoner of his ego and he responds to everything in terms of whether it affirms or challenges his ego, the idea that other Republicans would win while he is losing is very tough for him to stomach. He's been saying that. You mean to tell me these other Republicans won and I lost? How could that possibly be?

So, some of the actions that he's taken going after McConnell, raising this 11th hour demand for $2,000 checks for the purpose of embarrassing McConnell and Republicans, the way in which he conducted himself on that phone call with Raffensperger and publicly, he has repeated much of the same stuff publicly, is all an expression I think with his consumption with self, lack of concern for others and if he takes them down, I think he's going to walk away and be in a similar position.

We all know and Charlie Dent can speak to this in the long run he has inflicted grievous harm on the Republican Party, whether they have 50 seats in the next Congress -- in the next Senate or whether they have 52, but that's simply the reality of who Donald Trump is and what motivates him.

BERMAN: John Harwood, and Charlie Dent, thank you both so much for being with us this morning.

Hospitals filling up so fast with coronavirus patients in Los Angeles County that ambulance crews are being asked not to bring patients who have no chance of survival.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta with us next.

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