Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Trump Has Zero Intention of Resigning, White House Advisers Say; Prosecutors Looking at All Actors Including Trump as Charges Filed Against Capitol Rioters; More Allies Abandon Trump as Pressure Grows to Resign; Fact Checking Republican's Unsubstantiated Claims that Antifa Infiltrated Capitol Riot. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired January 08, 2021 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: You were in the nation's capital on Wednesday then you were at risk, serious risk of being removed from office, and so you saw the president say those scripted words last night. Of course, that doesn't mean his opinion of what happened has changed since he was actually described as being happy as he was watching that chaos that was unfolding during the certification process.

But I do think the people around the president are realizing that the threat of him actually potentially being impeached for the second time within about a year of each other is growing, and it seems more real by the moment. And it does seem more significant and more possible rather than actually the 25th Amendment being invoked. We're told the vice president hasn't discussed that with any cabinet members, even as much as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has publicly talked about it and threatened impeachment if they don't go forward with that, it doesn't seem to be realistic right now.

But yes, the president does not have any plans of resigning. Someone told me yesterday they would be their savings account that the president is not going to step from his role. But what happens in the next 12 days is really anyone's guess at this point.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Kaitlan Collins thank you very much for all of that. We watch to see what the president does do for the next 12 days. And of course, that includes can he pardon himself to avoid being held liable for this attack this week? We'll talk about that on the other side of this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:35:00]

BALDWIN: A West Virginia state legislator who recorded himself storming the Capitol this week has been arrested and faces criminal charges.

Also arrested and charged? This man. This is the guy who broke into Speaker Pelosi's office, made himself comfortable popped his feet up on the desk. These are just some of the charges that have been handed down in connection to the deadly siege that left multiple people dead including a U.S. Capitol police officer.

CNN's Jessica Snyder is with me. And Jessica, I know investigators have said that they're looking for, you know, everyone that could be involved, but now they say they don't expect charges for a lot of the people who may have incited the crowd. Explain.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right, Brooke. So they clarified a bit today, saying they do not expect to file charges against any of the speakers at that pre-riot rally. Of course, that rally and the speakers there included the president, and Rudy Giuliani. Some accuse them both of inciting the crowd.

But for now investigators say the focus is squarely on those rioters who stormed the Capitol. And so far, prosecutors have filed charges against 15 people in federal court, they say there will be more, and they're revealing details about several of these charges.

Of course, most notoriously they have arrested and charged Richard Barnett. He is in custody in Arkansas. And he was the one, Brooke, you mentioned, he was photographed with his feet up on Nancy Pelosi's desk. You know, he bragged to a local TV station in Arkansas that he stole an envelope from her desk. But he is now under arrest, taken into custody in Little Rock, Arkansas and he is facing federal charges.

And that's in addition to Derrick Evans that delegate for the West Virginia legislature. He recording himself storming the Capitol, he's now facing federal charges. And then prosecutors are also releasing more details, Brooke, about how this riot could have been much worse. They've arrested a man whose truck was found near the Capitol and inside they had previously told us they had previously found 11 Molotov cocktails that were ready to go.

But now they're telling us they also found two handguns, an M-4 assault rifle, gasoline and also materials for homemade napalm that's used to make bombs and flamethrowers.

So Brooke today, we're getting the information about the people charges. We expect more people to be charged both in federal court and we're seeing people in the local D.C. courts as well -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Listen, if you deny COVID, you don't believe in masks, you don't wear masks, you go mob, raid, incite violence on the Capitol, you're going to get your picture taken and they're going to come and find you. Jessica Snyder, thank you so much.

With me now, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Elliott Williams and CNN counterterrorism analyst and former CIA counterterrorism official, Phillip Mudd. Gentlemen, great to have you on. Elliot, just flat out, could the president of the United States actually face any charges here?

ELLIOTT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: He could. At a minimum you could have an investigation of the president for what would be inciting a riot. Literally there is a federal riot act, for lack of a better term, that lays out when you have a group of individuals engaging in acts of violence.

The problem is just going to be tricky to convict him of it. Like I said, you could investigate him for it, but you're going to have to prove that the specific acts of violence were at the behest of the person who urged them.

Now the president can certainly have the defense that, well, I was urging people to protest as is their right under the 1st Amendment, but those guys who were engaged in violence, that wasn't me. It's just going to be harder to prove, but you could certainly charge it and you could certainly investigate it.

BALDWIN: And then Phil, all these people, as I mention, not wearing masks so they're easily caught on video. They're being identified. You heard Jessica say the one guy is bragging back home on his local news about how he stole whatever from Nancy Pelosi. Not exactly a brilliant move but great for law enforcement.

You know, they're now going home in various corners of the country. They're trying to hide some of them, scrubbing their social media. How does law enforcement track them all down?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Boy there's a lot of work going into this. Look at what's available to law enforcement now. It's not only what they put up on social media and whether you can recover that later, you can, it's obviously what's on the video feeds going in the Congress.

[15:40:03]

Remember just that day when -- the day of the riot, there are FBI officials who went into that building, I presume that was for evidence collection. Not only photographing the damage but making sure that they recovered the video from that facility.

Then the great revolution in the past few years. How many people took cell phone video whether they were in the facility or not? So I think there's going to be a ton of -- not only a ton of video evidence, but 50 people sounds like a few. A lot more prosecutions in the coming days.

By the way, just one quick moment here on what the president-elect said, Biden. We just heard him on CNN a few minutes ago. I've got to tell you I was really surprised about what he said about the inauguration and encouraging Donald Trump the president not to attend for one simple reason.

You realize the president has said that he wants to support a smooth transition. He has not said that he accepts the legitimacy of the election. I think that distinction is significant. If the president were to go to the inauguration, it makes it much harder for him to say, I do not accept Biden as the legitimate president of the United States. I think it's a mistake for President-elect Biden not to encourage the president to attend. BALDWIN: I hear you, I appreciate you saying that. That's why we keep

referring to that video from yesterday, the non-concession concession, and you know, Biden essentially saying he's thrilled he's not going to be coming, because that's one they can agree upon, because this president according to the president-elect is just like this total embarrassment.

Elliott to the point though on that Phil was making about all these folks being prosecuted, all these rioters, how could they be charged and how much jail time are we talking?

WILLIAMS: Oh, potentially a lot, and just to repeat the protest chant, lock them up, lock them all up, and they could potentially face a lot of charges. Now, look, there is no federal domestic terrorism statute that would allow for enhancements simply for the fact that there's terrorism, but there's all kinds of charges that these folks could be charged with.

Trespass, seditious conspiracy, damaging federal property, threatening federal officers, obstructing a proceeding of Congress, all kinds of things. Now the far more important point though, even more than what accompanies with this, they really need to be tried in the District of Columbia. Now many of them can and ultimately sadly will be tried back in their jurisdictions back home. Like the individual in Arkansas, the federal law probably allows -- will allow him to be tried in Arkansas.

Look, if you're a prosecutor, you want the most friendly jury possible, and the jury you want is a jury pool of people who live in a place, work for the federal government, don't want to see their city terrorized and are more likely to vote for a conviction.

I think they're sort of playing with fire by letting all these guys go back home, get arrested back there and be tried frankly in far more friendly jurisdictions. So bring them back here or they should have arrested them when they were here and charged them.

But it's potentially years of jail time because a lot of these offenses could potentially be stacked on top of each other. And remember, there's, you know, there's acts of violence inside the Capitol building, and anyone who's present there can be charged and tried with some of the violent offenses and damaging property that other people engaged in. It's call accomplice liability. Everybody is these sorts of thuggish accomplices working with each other and even if you're not the guy who broke the window you could still be charged with it.

BALDWIN: So given the violence that we've seen, right, the proven violence from this minority of Trump supporters this week on the Capitol, Phil, last question to you is just inauguration. You know, 12 days away, held out in the elements. How do we know that Biden and Harris will be safe?

MUDD: I think there is a couple things. Firstly, obviously you would expect to see a security presence that's unprecedented. But also one of the questions from the past couple days is, why didn't federal authorities and Capitol Police authorities see what was happening on social media and react more aggressively?

I can guarantee you the feds working with state and locals are going to be looking not only at people who were involved a few days ago but at anybody who's been is some of these circles like QAnon to see if there is talk about the inauguration. A lot of preemptive work behind the scenes that's not physical, that's digital -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Planned this whole thing. Executed it, broad daylight. Broad daylight. Failure at so many levels. Phil Mudd, Elliott Williams, guys thank you so much.

I want to pivot and talk COVID. Breaking news on coronavirus. A huge announcement from the White House task force about a fast-spreading U.S.A. variant.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:45:00]

BALDWIN: We've got some more breaking news out of Washington now as calls are mounting for the president of the United States to resign for his role in inciting the deadly surge on U.S. Capitol earlier this week.

Michael Chertoff served as the Homeland Security Secretary under President George W. Bush. And he joins me now by phone, so Mr. Secretary, thank you so much for jumping on with me, welcome.

MICHAEL CHERTOFF, FORMER SECURITY OF HOMELAND SECRETARY (via phone): Happy to tune in -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Let's just start with, what is the danger in President Trump remaining in office for 12 more days?

CHERTOFF: We don't know what he's going to do with the residual amount of power that he has, and we also don't know what he won't do that should be done. If he's not paying attention to things like COVID virus or for example the major

cyberattack that we suffered from the Russians having involved penetration of a lot of enterprises.

[15:50:03]

I mean we need to have a president on top of his game at every minute, and right now we have a president whose checked out, basically.

BALDWIN: When you looked at these images from this week, these people, the rioters, Mr. Chertoff, with, you know, Auschwitz sweatshirts and nooses and Confederate flags flying alongside Trump flags, they were inside our Capitol.

How do you wrap your mind around that, number one? And number two, how does the United States send the message -- I can't believe I'm even having to ask it this way --but that white supremacists are not welcome here? CHERTOFF: Well, I mean I have to say this is one of the most shocking images I saw this last Wednesday I've ever seen in my life, and that includes September 11 when I was on duty at the Department of Justice.

And we've had experiences with white supremacists before, I mean we were in Oklahoma City. Which was of course tragic and resulted in the deaths of a lot people, including children.

So I think there's got to be a firm statement from leadership that this isn't tolerable, and law enforcement has to really make domestic terrorism as much of a priority as global jihadism is.

And one thing I'm confident of is the incoming president, President Biden understands this. And I know Merrick Garland, and I know he understands it because he was actually involved in the prosecution of Timothy McVeigh. So if we can hang in there for another dozen days, I feel we're going to turn a corner.

BALDWIN: I know you and so many of our national security officials know how to focus on battling the jihadis, right, but we're talking about caravans of these people in our own country.

As far as politics goes, Mr. Secretary, you know, we're starting to see more Republicans come forward and condemn President Trump. But still he has his strong supporters. The Republican Party is pretty much ripping apart at the seams. What damage does this split create long term in the Republican Party?

CHERTOFF: Let me say first of all, my main concern is really the United States of America. I mean political parties are one thing, but that's not where I find myself feeling loyalty. I find myself feeling loyalty to the U.S. and the Constitution. And preserving that and preserving our constitutional values are the main themes for me.

I think Republicans are going to have to make a judgment whether they want to restore the party as a party that has kind of centrist conservative views on a whole range of issues and believes in American values, or whether they want to steer in a direction of what we've seen in other parts of the world where you basically have authoritarian or extremist parties that operate the fringes but never can actually command majority public support.

BALDWIN: I bring it up just listening to the president-elect a moment ago, you know, talking about the Republican Party, because obviously the president played a huge role in all of this but so did a number of Republicans up there on Capitol Hill. He even said, the Josh Hawleys and the Ted Cruzes of the world are in on the big lie and it's how this party moves forward and disavows some members of their own party.

Michael Chertoff, thank you so much for jumping on the phone, great to have you on. Thank you, thank you.

CHERTOFF: Good to be on, Brooke, take care.

BALDWIN: The Republican Party is a mess, virtually in tatters, the president seemingly delusional about his crumbling administration. Could be days away from being forced out of office, less than two weeks before his term ends. And yet these realities still have not stopped. Some Republican lawmakers and supporters and Donald Trump himself for spewing false claims about who actually stormed the U.S. Capitol this week and who tried to stop this deadly riot.

CNN's Daniel Dale is here with the fact check on all of this. Daniel, run through it for me.

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Brooke, there is a usual a boatload of bad information going around and some of it, as usual, is coming from the president himself.

Let's go through five of these false claims.

Number one, some Republican officials including Alabama Congressman Mo Brooks, Arizona Congressman Paul Gosar have claimed that it wasn't Trump supporters responsible for this violence, that it was a provocation by left wing Antifa.

Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz cited an article in the "Washington Times" as supposed evidence. Listen to what he said in Congress.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): I don't know if the reports are true, but the "Washington Times" has just reported that some pretty compelling evidence from a facial recognition company showing that some of the people who breached the Capitol today were not Trump supporters, they were masquerading as Trump supporters, and in fact, were members of the violent terrorist group Antifa.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DALE: Guess what, that article in the "Washington Times" turned out to be so totally false, the paper deleted it.

[15:55:00]

BALDWIN: Which brings us up to speed I should say.

DALE: More broadly, the claim that his mob was some sort of Antifa production is just bonkers, Brooke. An FBI assistant director said they have no indication of an Antifa role and this time. And we know the mob violence was perpetrated by Trump supporters. Some of whom we know by name, by sight and many of whom identified themselves on camera as Trump supporters after a pro-Trump rally which Trump himself had told people to come to D.C. to attend. During which he personally told people to go march on the Capitol.

And then as all this was happening, Trump posted a video telling the rioters they were very special and that he loved them, so Antifa? Come on.

Number two, Brooke, listen to what Trump said in his Twitter video yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I immediately deployed the National Guard and federal law enforcement to secure the building and expel the intruders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DALE: That is just not true. Now I'll caution we don't yet have a complete accounting of what happened, we'll learn more with time, but we know from reporting by CNN and "The New York Times" and others that it was not Trump who ordered the guard deployed. That Trump was in fact reluctant.

In fact as public account from the Pentagon does not even mention Trump. It says the acting defense secretary Chris Miller activated the guard in response to a request from the Mayor of Washington D.C. And Miller's statement at the time of that activation did not even Trump as well. It said Miller had spoken with Vice President Pence, not Trump.

Number three, there are just ludicrous claims going around the conservative leaning social media at Parlor, in which Trump supporters are claiming that the video you just saw a clip of in which Trump criticized the mob and conceded the election essentially is a deep fake. In other words that it's not actually Trump, it's a sophisticated computer-generated replacement.

What do you even say to that? The president posted this video from his own Twitter account. Some subset of his supporters has frankly just gone off the deep end.

And number four, most of the bad info is coming from the pro-Trump side, but there's also some coming off the anti-Trump side. Some tweeters have gotten millions of views suggesting that a Donald Trump Jr. video depicting the president at the White House watching the rioting and cheering it on. Sorry, saying that video was taken at the White House and showed the rioting being watched by the president and cheered by the president. In fact, the video in question was taken at the Ellipse, which is a park, not at the White House and it was before the violence at the Capitol.

In fact, before the president even spoke at that supporters' rally, it does not show him cheering the violence. Now there's no defending Trump's conduct on that day but his critics need to be accurate as well.

Number five, whenever a dramatic incident happens, you get some people baselessly claiming it wasn't real. That videos of it were staged by some shady

forces. There are millions of views on such a claim about a video showing the mob approaching a Capitol police officer in the video who keeps retreating in alarm up the staircase as he awaits backup. That claim is, of course, absolute nonsense.

The video was taken from a HuffPost reporter, Igor Bobic. The officer was clearly outnumbered, clearly anxious, there was nothing at all inauthentic about that clip.

So in summary, Brooke, disinformation, lies caused this whole calamity and the disinformation and lies are not going away afterward.

BALDWIN: Thank you for walking us through each of those five thing and fact checking, reminding us of these conspiracies and how a good chunk of this country is thinking and believing, and calling it out as wrong. Daniel Dale, thank you.

DALE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: For the first time ever, the U.S. reported more than 4,000 deaths in a single day yesterday and now the White House task says it's possible there may be this fast-spreading U.S.A. variant of COVID. Erica Hill is a CNN anchor and national correspondent and she's with me now. And so Erica, what is this variant here?

ERICA HILL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So Brooke, what we're learning is -- as you know the White House task force puts out these reports to states. So the one from this week has said as you point out, there may, may be a U.S. variant, may have its own version of the virus that is spreading that is more transmissible that that could be related to the spread. But it's really important to point out there is no hard evidence right now that there is in fact a U.S. variant that is fueling this more aggressive spread. That is fueling these numbers we're seeing.

We also saw in that state report from the task force that the fall and winter surge, well that surge has been nearly twice what we saw in the spring and summer. Where is it coming from? Experts have been warning for months, Brooke, what would happen if more people traveled, if people didn't wear masks. We're coming off a busy holiday travel season as we saw. So the answer -- the question rather is what to do.

Well in this report, they note that the aggressive mitigation is going to be needed to meet a much more aggressive spread, that would include more masking and they also recommended immediate vaccination of as many people as possible. As you know of course that is certainly something that's being discussed a lot these days -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Listening to the president-elect there, you know, talking about benchmarks he has once he takes office January 20th in terms of vaccinations, in terms of mask wearing. Here's hoping that there will be a change for the better. Lives need to be saved.

Erica Hill, thank you so, so much.

[16:00:00]