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House Moves Quickly to Impeach Trump if Vice President Pence Does Not Oust Him. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired January 11, 2021 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEW DAY: All right. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is New Day.

And this morning, we are on the brink of history for genuinely horrific reasons. For the first time ever, it appears almost certain that a U.S. president will be impeached for a second time. We have new details about how this process will work and it all begins in just a few hours.

There are new calls this morning for the president's resignation, before any of this even happens, these calls now coming from some Republicans as well, and new calls this morning for the resignations of Senators Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz, who tried to block Joe Biden's Electoral College victory, even after the mob attacked the Capitol.

We also have new details on a push to remove House members who spoke to the insurrectionists before they invaded the capitol.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN NEW DAY: And in a brand new interview, the head of the capitol police, Steven Sund, who resigned, says he suspects that pipe bombs that were planted at the RNC and DNC headquarters on Wednesday were designed to draw officers away from the Capitol as the band of domestic terrorists searched for lawmakers.

This morning, we have new video and photos from the assault that show more of how crazed and violent the mob was. Here are the rioters beating police officers, trying to keep them from breaching the Capitol. And there's more violent, extreme, online chatter from Trump supporters ahead of inauguration day, including armed protests, another attack on the U.S. Capitol and State Capitol buildings. The mayor of Washington, D.C. is asking for a pre-emergency to be declared with a significant increase in National Guard troops.

But we begin with CNN'S Sunlen Serfaty. She's live on Capitol Hill with our top story. What's the latest there?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A huge moment for sure, Alisyn. Today on Capitol Hill, Speaker Pelosi today will start putting the wheels in motion to try to remove President Trump from office right now.

Now, later this morning, we will see the House put a resolution on the floor. That resolution calls for Vice President Mike Pence to invoke the 25th Amendment. It says that if Vice President Pence does not respond within 24 hours that the House will move to impeach President Trump. And we know that some members have already drawn up one article of impeachment charging Trump with incitement of an insurrection.

In a letter to Democrats last night, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says, quote, in protecting our Constitution and our democracy, we will act with urgency, because this president represents an imminent threat to both. As the days go by, the horror of the ongoing assault on our democracy perpetrated by this president is intensified and so is the immediate need for action.

And a source close to Vice President Mike Pence tells CNN that he has not ruled out invoking the 25th Amendment, but there is some concern on his team about what potentially President Trump could do if the actions could be even worse than before, if the cabinet starts to move on this.

Now, all of this as now the second Republican senator, Senator Pat Toomey, comes out and says that he is calling for President Trump to resign. John and Alisyn?

BERMAN: All right. Sunlen Serfaty for us on Capitol Hill, Sunlen, a lot going on there, so please keep us posted throughout the morning.

Joining us, CNN Political Analyst Margaret Talev, she's the Managing Editor of Axios, CNN Political Analyst David Gregory and also with us, Norm Eisen, he served as Counsel for the Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee during the first impeachment of President Trump.

And let me just make note of the fact, again, we are poised on the brink of history here. It does seem inevitable that Donald Trump will be the second president ever to be -- sorry, the first president ever to be impeached twice. It is stunning. It is remarkable.

Ambassador Eisen, I want to start with you. Given that it is unlikely that this will remove Donald Trump from office prior to January 20th, why is the important to do this?

NORM EISEN, FORMER HOUSE JUDICIARY SPECIAL COUNSEL FOR 2019 IMPEACHMENT: John, thanks for having me back on the show. It's critically important for House to respond when you have a president who, as the Constitution says, engages in treason, bribery or other high crimes and misdemeanors. There could be no higher crime and misdemeanor than leading an attack on your own government. It's not just Congress. The executive branch, the vice president was there too.

So irrespective of the fate in the Senate, they should do this.

CAMEROTA: David Gregory, the more we see of these videos and the still photos, we knew it was horrifying on Wednesday, as we watched it in real time unfold, and then over the weekend, we saw things like this, just more video coming out.

[07:05:02]

This is the mob, the blood-thirsty mob beating a police officer, who is trying to block them from entering the U.S. Capitol.

I mean, this is the mob who came here in the name of Donald Trump who claims to be law and order and they're beating a police officer. They were squashing a different police officer in a door in glass doors, crushing him, trying to crush him to death. He's begging for mercy. I mean, it's -- it's so traumatic, everything that the country has just lived through.

And so, you know, regardless of what happens next, regardless of what procedure Nancy Pelosi can put in place, this is a stain that will never wash off.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I think that's right. And you know, just speaking for myself, Alisyn, I'm so numb, unfortunately, to big, historic events in Washington, having covered them and seen them. It's taken me a few days to have this really wash over me in a way that has the kind of impact that you're talking about, to really settle in at just how disturbing all of it was and is, and what it or tends for the future.

So I think that's right. I think this step of impeachment is historic. We know this is a political process. And so, because of that, there are questions about whether it goes too far, whether it will do more harm than good. You know, moderate Democrats worried about that, whether you have Republicans onboard. But I think there's no question that this is a high crime and misdemeanor. I think there's bipartisan agreement about that. The question is what to do about it.

And I think if you don't take a stand to mark this stain on the country and set that precedent, you're not doing the right thing. Plus, there are Republicans who will want to vote for this. And they ought to be put -- they ought to be on the record, because there is more fear of violence, there is more work that has to be done to secure our political activity in this country in the immediate future, which is really important.

BERMAN: Margaret, what about that? What about Republicans? How much bipartisan support do you see this receiving? Where are they this morning?

MARGARET TALEV, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, well, good morning, John. Look, I think the next steps are as much about Democratic politics as they are about Republican politics, Nancy Pelosi is waiting for Mike Pence to say no, thanks, to the option of initiating the 25th Amendment. And it seems that that's where things are now. The cabinet has not sent him anything. He is maybe behind the scenes reserving his right to do it if more happens, but he's not jumping at the chance to initiate this process.

And so where Senate Republicans are left is waiting for Democrats to make a decision about their pace and timing. I agree with both David and Ambassador Eisen. I do think that's where this is heading, impeachment in the House. But Democratic consideration is on a couple of fronts. And one is, do they hamstring Joe Biden if they send this, then, to the Senate immediately. Joe Biden, obviously, wants to be able to focus on COVID policy, on his own priorities, on at least notionally the idea of bringing the country back together. So now there are these discussions about, do you do impeachment in the House and wait a period of time, the first hundred days or whatever in the Senate. Can that work?

But the goals here are multiple. One is to restrain the president's activity in the final, I guess, what are we now, nine days of his presidency. And don't forget, before all of this happened, we were talking about who he would pardon, how he would use his executive powers in the waning days. He still technically has those executive powers. I think there are questions about how quickly his legal team -- the White House Counsel or the Justice Department would move to execute those powers, but there are real powers that he still has. And in having this threat of impeachment, this threat of Senate action and what Republicans could do to join with Democrats does constrain him to some degree.

CAMEROTA: And, Ambassador Eisen, then there's questions about the enablers around him, the people -- the other people who worked the mob up to a blood-thirsty lather. And I'm thinking of -- well, let's start with Senators Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz, who voted to try to impede or overturn the election after the insurrection on the U.S. Capitol. They knew better. They knew what their actions had already wrought. And then, there's Congressman Mo Brooks, who said, let's go kick some ass to the crowd. If that's rhetorical speaking and doesn't suggest violence, I don't know what does.

So here is the 14th Amendment. Some people have suggested that the 14th Amendment could be invoked to punish them and remove them from office. Here is how it reads. No person shall be a senator or a representative in Congress or hold any office who having previously taken an oath to support the Constitution of the United States shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same or given aid or comfort to the enemies there of.

[07:10:15]

What do you think about that remedy for those other people?

EISEN: Well, certainly, those who spoke words of violence, we heard them from the president, Mo brooks of the House, Rudy Giuliani, Don Jr., those who spoke words of violence, incitement to riot at the rally before the attack on the House, they are potentially culpable for insurrection.

I think that you're going to see, because Hawley and Cruz, although they supported -- they told these terrible lies that whipped people into a frenzy. Alisyn, these include people, these Trump supporters, who genuinely believed, as false as it is, that their democracy had been stolen, that they were defending their democracy. Cruz and Hawley have a different kind of culpability. They may not quite reach the line of insurrection under the 14th Amendment, they have potential, congressional ethics exposure, potential censure by their colleagues, but we don't know all the facts yet. so we need to see what the contours of the conspiracy were.

And, of course, there's the famous picture now, now-infamous picture of Hawley holding an upraised fist to the protesters that day. So we'll need to see how it develops, 14th Amendment, censure, ethics investigations, potential civil liability. We're going to be looking at the consequences here in Congress, in the courts and politically for many, many, many months to come.

BERMAN: And, David Gregory, what concerns me is it's not over. We have the Republican share of the nigh county Republican party in Nevada overnight saying, Donald Trump is still going to be president after January 20th. He still believes that Donald Trump won and will maintain office. And this is a Republican county leader. So you have people still saying this stuff. There are people concerned about a march on January 17th that this could happen more.

And yet, we haven't heard anything from Christopher Wray, the director of the FBI. There was a siege on the U.S. Capitol. You would think that this is something where every day senior federal officials would be out there every day telling us about the investigation and how they're going to protect this country.

GREGORY: Look, I think that's a fair question, but I also think the FBI is working very diligently on this to identify targets that we don't know about and to do all of that work without announcing much of it.

I think there's a tremendous obligation and a lot of pressure on the FBI right now. I think the nominee, Merrick Garland, as attorney general for President Biden, is going to be very important. Merrick Garland has tremendous experience with this strain of political rebellion, if you think back to the Oklahoma City bombing, he coordinated that investigation and that prosecution back in the '90s. So I think there is a lot of work that's being done to identify these threats.

And it's a fear, especially because you look at Mayor Bowser down here in D.C., who wants the National Guard on the ready, but she doesn't have the authority to put the National Guard in place necause in Washington, D.C., because we're not a state, she doesn't have control as mayor, and she's petitioning the federal government.

So I agree with you that we are not done with this. I think this is something that's going to linger. And, frankly, I think to Margaret's point, this is something that will weigh in the political calculations on how to proceed against Trump. And Biden has a voice in this as well, as he's thinking about what are the conditions socially and in the country and in terms of political violence that he's going to have to try to manage.

CAMEROTA: David Gregory, Margaret Talev, Ambassador Eisen, thank you all very much.

BERMAN: All right. So how is this impeachment process going to work? It starts in just a few hours. Up next, we're going to speak to one of the members of Congress who is at the center of it all.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): This president is guilty of inciting insurrection. he has to pay a price for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on plans for the historic second impeachment of Donald Trump.

Our next guest briefly took over the speaker's duties on the house floor Wednesday, as the mob tried to storm the chamber. He was later just yards away from this scene that resulted in a riot or insurrectionist being shot and killed by police.

Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Jim McGovern. He is the chair of House Rules Committee. Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for being with us. We are glad you're well.

Seeing that video is horrifying and infuriating at the same time, I want to focus on what will happen this week. You are a central player in the process that we will see. Explain to me what we will see over the next few days.

REP. JIM MCGOVERN (D-MA): Well, this will be a week of action. And today we will seek a unanimous consent request to bring up a resolution authored by Congressman Jamie Raskin to demand that the vice president invoke the 25th Amendment. I expect the Republicans will object, so tomorrow the rules committee, which I chair, will provide a rule to bring that legislation to the floor. We will vote on it. And then in 24 hours later, we will go back to the Rules Committee and bring another resolution to deal with the issue of impeachment.

What this president did is unconscionable and he needs to be held to account.

BERMAN: Have you decided from my friends in Congress whether it will be a privileged resolution or a motion?

MCGOVERN: I think most likely it will come to the rules committee. We will -- that is yet to be decided. But it will go right to the -- we will bring it right to the floor and it will be considered by the full House.

[07:20:01]

And I expect that he will be impeached. He will be the first president in history to be impeached twice.

BERMAN: Do you think that will happen Wednesday or Thursday?

MCGOVERN: I do.

BERMAN: How much debate, or what will the debate be like on the House floor for that. MCGOVERN: Well, we are working on the details now, but there will be debate, and the American people will be able to witness us making a very strong case why this president is not fit for office.

Look ,this is beginning of Donald Trump's last week in office. That's -- I think the American people would rest better if by the time the sun sets today, he was no longer in office.

We have no idea what will happen in this next week. We know what he's capable of after we witnessed what happened on Wednesday. But he is a clear and present danger to this country and to the world. And the quicker he can be removed, the better for all of us.

BERMAN: You say he is a clear and present danger and impeachment would make that statement. However, you know that removal is unlikely before January 20th, correct? So why then is it still important?

MCGOVERN: Well, it is important because we need to make it clear that there is a consequence to what happened on Wednesday. For those who say we should look the other way or we should move on, to do that basically says that what they did was okay. What the president did was all right. And it will happen again if there's not a consequence for his action.

So it is important that we act and it is important that we act in a very serious and deliberative manner. And we will. Look, we expect this up on the floor on Wednesday and I expect that it will pass.

BERMAN: House Majority Whip Jim Clyburn suggested that the House might then wait up to a hundred days to transmit the articles of impeachment to the Senate. Explain that.

MCGOVERN: Well, I mean, I heard him say that, I think, on CNN yesterday, I don't know the plan is going to be. All I -- and I'm not sure what the Senate will do and how they will act. All I have control over and all I have influence over is what happens in the House. And we are going to act decisively in this House.

What the president is guilty of, inciting insurrection, is unforgivable crime and he needs to be held to account.

BERMAN: In the spirit of controlling what is in the House and on the subject of inciting that mob, Congressman Mo Brooks from Alabama spoke to that same group as the president did before it invaded the U.S. Capitol. He said something to the effect of, take names and kick ass. What action do you anticipate taking against Mo Brooks and maybe others?

MCGOVERN: Well, that's something we're talking about in our conference, but Mo Brooks and others like him, quite frankly, should resign. They should have the decency to resign. They don't belong in this institution. They have demonstrated a contempt for democracy, for freedom. Really, his words were disgusting, and as were the president's, as were Rudy Giuliani's, as were, quite frankly, some of my colleagues in the House and Senate. This is a moment when I think some of these people need to do the right thing and resign. BERMAN: Are you prepared to take action to force that?

MCGOVERN: Well, you know, I for one would be, but that's something we're going to have to talk about in our caucus.

BERMAN: Do you feel that the 14th Amendment is applicable here, which just to remind you, says that no one shall hold office who should have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof? Representative Cori Bush is proposing a resolution on that today.

MCGOVERN: Yes. Well, I think it is applicable, but, again, this is something we're going to have to talk about. I mean, look, one of the things that is really frustrating to me at this particular moment is when I hear, you know, from people like our distinguished minority leader, Kevin McCarthy, talk about this is a moment of healing. You can't -- the people who have helped cause this, you know, are not the people who can lead in healing. They need to move out of the way. To try to overturn a legitimate election, to try to trample on the will of the American people, is something that is unforgivable. These people do not belong in office. And certainly, they do not belong in high-ranking positions.

BERMAN: If I can, I want to ask you about a matter of parochial interest, but that is not to suggest that it's unimportant or not symbolic. New England Patriots Coach Bill Belichick, we understand, will be presented with the presidential Medal of Freedom later this week. What do you think -- what message does it send if Bill Belichick goes to the White House to receive that after this insurrection at the Capitol?

MCGOVERN: Yes, I would refuse it if I were Bill Belichick. And this president has made a mockery of the presidential Medal of Freedom. Look at what he has given it in the last weeks, people like Devin Nunez and Jim Jordan. I mean, please, Bill Belichick should do the right thing and say, no, thanks.

BERMAN: What would it tell you if he does show up?

MCGOVERN: I'll be very disappointed, to be honest with you.

[07:25:01]

I think it's -- look, this president is not fit to be in office. So anything that he would bestow on anybody to me is meaningless and to accept it is disgraceful.

BERMAN: I just want to ask you, finally, again, we know from the pictures of where you were when this all took place, for much of the time on the floor and then right behind that door in a moment of extreme violence, just tell us what that was like and what was going through your head.

MCGOVERN: Well, when I walked off the floor and into the speaker's lobby where that scene that you mentioned took place, and I saw this mob banging on the windows, screaming, trying to break the windows, not even paying any attention to the security forces around them, I saw evil. I saw the hate in their eyes. And I knew these people weren't here to protest, they were here to destroy things, and most likely to kill people. It was a frightening moment, one that I'll never forget. But this never should have happened.

BERMAN: Mr. Chairman, Jim McGovern, we appreciate you being with us, explaining what we will see starting this morning on the House floor. Please keep us posted.

MCGOVERN: Thank you, be safe.

BERMAN: You too.

We just heard what the House intends to do or might do with its members involved in speaking to this mob before it invaded the Capitol. But Republican Senator Josh Hawley, what will he face? Details on that, next.

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