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Rep. Chrissy Houlahan (D-PA) Is Interviewed On House Of Representatives Bringing Impeachment Proceedings Against President Trump For Second Time; Reports Indicate Possible Further Attacks On Capitol On January 17th And Inauguration Day; House To Move Quickly To Impeach Trump If VP Pence Does Not Oust Him; Silencing Trump Supporters. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired January 11, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: He says he suspects pipe bombs were planted at the RNC and DNC headquarters to draw officers away from the capitol perimeter as these terrorists searched for lawmakers. This morning, law enforcement in Washington and in states across the country are bracing for more possible violence leading up to Inauguration Day. Security officials are monitoring online chatter calling for protests in all 50 states including a potential secondary attack on the U.S. capitol and state capital buildings on January 17th.

Joining me now is Democratic Congresswoman Chrissy Houlahan. She's an Air Force veteran and a member of the House Armed Services Committee. And Congresswoman, you have national security concerns this morning about Donald Trump remaining in office. What are they?

REP. CHRISSY HOULAHAN (D-PA): Well, what we saw happen on our own soil is something that we should be deeply, deeply alarmed by. But we should also associate that violence and that loss of control on a global scale as well. We just signaled to all of our enemies around the world, both organized states and otherwise, that we are vulnerable and we are weak, and we also just demonstrated that this president has the ability within hours to unravel on the very foundations of our democracy and our Constitution.

BERMAN: Rules Committee Chair Jim McGovern told us moments ago the vote to impeach President Trump for a second time, which would be historic, will come either late Wednesday or early Thursday. What do you think that will accomplish?

HOULAHAN: It's hopefully an unnecessary movement, because it's my hope that the 25th Amendment will be invoked. It's my hope that calmer and more rational heads will convince the president to step down and to evacuate his seat. But if it is necessary for us to impeach this president yet again, I because it will be sending a couple of messages.

One is that this is behavior that just we simply cannot abide by. It's our responsibility, the oath of our office in Congress to do that, to signal by impeachment that this is unacceptable. And secondly, it's a signal to future generations, and as we talked about, to the world at large that this will prevail and that the people will not tolerate this behavior.

BERMAN: How many Republicans have you spoken with, or do have you the sense of how many might support impeachment?

HOULAHAN: I have had conversations, private conversations with Republicans, and I do struggle with the fact that only a handful would appear to support this. The narrative that they give me is that we don't simply have time to execute on this, and that frustrates me. As a veteran, I don't think that that would have been something that could have been told to me, that I didn't have time to defend and protect the nation, and that I should just sit back and hold my breath and hold my nose until the threat passes. That seems to be a pretty specious argument.

So I'm hoping that those Republicans will find the unity that we need with us to decry this behavior, to remove this president. I believe that that in and of itself will be a unifying statement, and we need to come together as a country.

BERMAN: Your fellow Democrat and fellow veteran Jason Crow says that he spoke to the Army Secretary and expressed concerns about the National Guard members who will be working to protect the inauguration on January 20th. The concern is that maybe some of the people there might have some sympathies with these insurrectionists. Do you share these concerns? What specifically, why do you think Jason Crow has these worries?

HOULAHAN: We need to be concerned about our ongoing security in general. We need to be thinking aggressively about protecting the nation's capital, other political entities, as you mentioned, in the opening of this show. We need to make sure that we're working with expedience to shore up all the different places, inclusive of the National Guard being brought in to make sure that we're protected.

I don't know enough about whether or not there are individuals. We did see indications of that on Wednesday, and we should be concerned about making sure that we're doing everything that we can to think about what looks like an uprising again on the 17th, and then, of course, again during the inauguration process, itself.

BERMAN: What do you think should happen to Congressman Mo Brooks who spoke to the mob before they invaded the U.S. capitol and said something to the effect of, go kick ass and take names?

HOULAHAN: It's an incredibly alarming statement on behalf of Congressman Mo Brooks. He is not alone in having in some ways incited this violence and encouraging that mob to walk literally from the White House up to the capitol to incite mayhem. There should be consequences for that. There are other things that our members of Congress that have done that are within the bounds of the Constitution and within the bound of what it is that is their responsibility, but this one would appear to be beyond the pale and out of bounds.

BERMAN: Do you think he should be removed from the U.S. Congress?

[10:05:01] HOULAHAN: I'd like to look into what the various mechanisms are. Whether or not it's censure-ship or removal. That is, of course, something that would be I think on the table. But we have a lot of bigger fish to fry right at this moment, and I want to make sure that we are moving forward on the critical path of what needs to be decided right now.

BERMAN: Jim Clyburn, who is your whip, the House Majority Whip, suggested that the House could vote to impeach Donald Trump, likely will vote to impeach Donald Trump, this week. But then he suggested waiting 100 days to transmit the articles of impeachment to the Senate to give then President Biden time in his first 100 days to address things, obviously, like the pandemic, like the economic crisis facing this country. Would you be supportive of that?

HOULAHAN: So I did also hear him on a variety of different news programs as well as calls that we were on suggest that as a possibility and an opportunity. I'm interested and intrigued by that. I definitely want to see this president, President Biden, have the ability in his first 100 days to be able to execute on some of the things you all were talking about on the program prior to me coming on, like making sure that we get those 100 million doses into people's arms in his first 100 days.

That should be the work of the people in restoring our economy. I'd like very much to see the vice president-elect, President-elect Biden to not be deterred into traffic by all of this.

But it's also very, very important that we uphold our oath of office and that we do, as I mentioned, the things that we need to be done to make sure that we are decrying this, and also making sure that we are sending messages to future generations.

BERMAN: How do you reconcile, though, what might be two separate notions, one that Donald Trump if your mind is a clear and present danger, a threat to our national security today, and the notion we can wait 100 days to finish the process?

HOULAHAN: Well, that's a little less hard in terms of reconciliation and many of the other things that are going through my head. At that point in time, he will have left office, and that means that he is no longer the clear and present danger that I believe him to be right now. And so there are many different things that are conflicting in my head about making sure that I do the right thing for the people that I represent for my commonwealth and for my country, that that is not one of them.

BERMAN: Congresswoman Chrissy Houlahan, we do appreciate you being with us this morning, sharing your thoughts, helping us to understand what we are likely to see in the next few days. Very much appreciate it.

HOULAHAN: Thank you. Be safe.

BERMAN: You too. Again, we have new information on exactly how this will play out this

week and what very well will happen by Thursday, which is that Donald Trump will be the first president ever impeached for a second time. We also have new information about what might happen to some of these other Republican members of Congress. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:11:21]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, President Trump faces the prospect of becoming the first president to be impeached twice. House Democrats are moving quickly to impeach the president this week if Vice President Pence does not move to oust him first. We are also hearing from the first lady this morning.

Joining us now, CNN White House correspondent John Harwood, CNN senior legal analyst Laura Coates, also with us and CNN contributor Michael D'Antonio who is the author of the new book "High Crimes" about President Trump's first impeachment trial.

BERMAN: It's going to need a sequel. That's obsolete.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: Get on it, Michael. The clock is ticking.

John Harwood, it was worse than we thought. I guess it was worse than our imaginations could even construct. As we watched what happened the siege on the capitol in real time, we didn't see all these videos. Now they are coming out over the weekend. This is the blood thirsty mob beating a police officer in the name of Donald Trump. They are using bats and flagpoles, some with their Trump flags on them, as you can see right there.

There was a police officer we saw over the weekend who was crushed in the doorway here. They were trying to crush him to death, and he's begging for mercy. What is happening right now with President Trump in the White House? Is there anybody around him? Is he alone? What is he doing in the aftermath of all of this?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, Alisyn, we talked about this before. The president of the United States is mentally ill. He is enraged by what has happened. His social media platforms have been taken away. He's still the president of the United States, obviously.

That's the most powerful position on planet earth. But he's not somebody who identifies with the responsibilities of the presidency. He can't carry them out. That's why he engaged in the behavior that he has engaged in since the election. That's why he has not accepted the consequences for his actions.

And as you suggest, hour by hour, we're seeing how grave a threat this was to American values and the security of the American government, and that's why you see so many people, even Mike Pence, not taking the 25th Amendment off the table. He could put out a statement ruling that out. He's not doing that.

The House is moving forward to sanction the president through the impeachment process, and that is partly an accountably step, which is important historically as well as contemporaneously. But all of these things are also ways to try to exert pressure on the president to prevent him from doing things that pose further danger to the United States.

BERMAN: Michael D'Antonio, you've written books on both Mike Pence and Donald Trump. And there are some conditions that Democrats are putting in before we get to the ultimate impeachment vote, which will come Wednesday or Thursday. One is if Mike Pence doesn't invoke the 25th Amendment. So do you think she likely or unlikely to do that based on what you know about him? And in your head, is there any chance that Donald Trump would resign?

MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I really don't think there is any chance that Trump will resign. The huge tragedy here is that we are always going to reach this point, and there were people in that first impeachment process who recognize that this is a man who is violent in his words and in his deeds and criminal in his mindset.

[08:15:00]

So criminals don't give up. I mean, he is surrounded and the cops are using their bull horns to warn him of what's going on, but he's going to play it out.

And as for Mike Pence, I think he's practically a hostage in this situation. He is caught between his own desire to run for office in 2024 and this demand that something be done about this deranged President. I don't think he wants to risk the ire and the anger and the rage of Trump's followers by moving against him right now.

What he prays for, I think, is that Trump will leave office, that Congress will actually use the 14th Amendment to bar Trump from seeking further office, and there is a way for them to do that. And that would clear the field for him in 2024.

CAMEROTA: Laura, so we're talking about political consequences in terms of a second impeachment, but there has to be other justice, there has to be more severe punishment for someone who works a crowd up to a ladder to commit, you know, these mob beatings and murder, you know, death -- a police officer was killed. So legally, what does all of this mean?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, of course, you don't just punish under the law, those who actually commit acts of violence, you can also punish people who incite others to commit those acts of violence, as long as they can show that there is not protected regular old political rhetoric speech here. But instead, actual words that are meant to urge violence that are done with a particular timing in mind, and if done in a way where violence is likely to occur.

You see what happened at the Capitol. I mean, you see the violent and savagery, beating that was happening right now with police officers, the attempts and chant to even hang Vice President Mike Pence, the requests and calls for Nancy Pelosi, this was going to be very, very violent.

But for that one officer in particular who decided to lure a crowd away from the Senate floor, so many people were at risk, even more than we probably even realize right now.

And so the law taken into account, and can actually prosecute those and the D.C. attorney, Mike Sherman is saying that no -- no one is going to escape the scrutiny, and they shouldn't because the words at the rally, during the rally, and after the actual insurrection, and during insurrection, will all be able to form the amount of evidence about the intent of the President, his son, Rudy Giuliani and perhaps even Congressman Mo Brooks.

BERMAN: Laura, while we have you, can I ask you something about what Michael D'Antonio raised, the 14th Amendment. The 14th Amendment, which came after the Civil War was designed to keep people from the Confederacy out of the U.S. government. It says, "No person shall be a Senator or a Representative in Congress or President who shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same or giving aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."

How applicable is this not just to the President, but Members of Congress like Mo Brooks, who spoke before the mob and told them something to the effective of go kick ass and take names?

COATES: You can categorize those in the same category of the 25th Amendment, impeachment or even censure because the 14th Amendment, that clause you're speaking about is really about the consequences and the future deterrents about being able to run for office disqualification.

It's not really in the criminal context, in the same way that the incitement to riot, felony murder, protection of property those could be in, but it still has value and merit there. But ultimately, as Michael D'Antonio spoke about, you're talking about political decisions and looking for the path of least resistance that's not going to satisfy perhaps the American people, but we're talking about the different bureaucratic processes that have to be in place to either remove or to delegate power to Vice President Pence, or even to convict and disqualify.

The 14th provides the most streamlined approach without the political consequences, certainly on Mike Pence. But again, it is usually, as you noted, reserved for those who was envisioned about those who were part of the Confederacy. And also final point here, for the same reason that the word treason is not on the table for a lot of this is because of the legal consequence of the word enemies. Congress has not technically declared war against these insurrectionists.

They're not necessarily the legal definition of enemies, although their behavior is certainly as perhaps combative and also against the interests of our democracy, but enemy carries a legal consequences and legal definition in this context. CAMEROTA: John Harwood, we've seen so many White House staffers and

Cabinet members thus far jumping off this sinking ship, and so there are acting Cabinet members around, Acting Secretary of Defense, acting Attorney General and so are the people -- it sounds like I should say -- the people in the White House who have the most extreme views: Stephen Miller, Peter Navarro, they are the people who are still by the President's side and have his ear.

[08:20:06]

HARWOOD: That's right, and as the President has become increasingly deranged in his conduct, the people willing to be around him are people who are the most extreme, the most unreasonable, the most gets disconnected from reality. You're talking about Navarro, you're talking about people like Rudy Giuliani, who has advised the President and others.

There are real questions right now about who is actually running the government of the United States. We saw, of course, Nancy Pelosi reaching out to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs last week to clarify safeguards in place that would prevent a deranged President from watching a military strike or a nuclear strike, God forbid.

So there are a lot of questions here. The resignation of some of those Cabinet officials like Betsy DeVos and Elaine Chao, you mentioned also diminishes the prospect that the 25th Amendment could be invoked even if Vice President Pence was inclined to pursue that step because the people most disturbed by his conduct are quitting.

I will say that most of the people who are leaving, if you're leaving in the last two weeks of this administration, you're probably doing it to cleanse your own reputation rather than have a constructive step on the process, and one of the things that people can be thankful for is that some people, some national security officials, some people like White House Counsel, Pat Cipollone, are staying and perhaps exerting a moderating effect on the President's behavior or some constraint on the President's behavior.

CAMEROTA: Really interesting to know. John Harwood, Laura Coates, Michael D'Antonio. Thank you all very much.

So you've probably heard Trump supporters say that they're being unfairly silenced or censored. As someone who has spent five years moderating Trump voter panels, I have some thoughts to share, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:25:55]

CAMEROTA: I want to take a moment now to address the notion that we need to listen to Trump supporters who are somehow being silenced or censored.

In the hour before the deadly riot at the U.S. Capitol, President Trump told his supporters quote, "Make your voices heard." Let me show you some of the quote, "very special" people he wants us to hear from. For instance, there's this wise shaman. The guy wearing the badger

pelt and face paint. This is a prominent QAnon crackpot and longtime Trump supporter. He was taken into custody on Saturday charged with violent entry into the U.S. Capitol. This morning, I am very hard pressed to see what this mad minotaur has to teach us.

How about this guy? He left a nasty note in Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office and stole some of her mail. I guess he didn't know that's a Federal crime. I'm not sure we should take any pointers from him.

Are we supposed to listen to members of this bloodthirsty mob? Beating people with bats and clubs? For the record, I don't think the arsonists and vandals who caused damage in Portland and other cities this summer should be listened to either, but I don't hear any political leaders saying they should be.

The violent mob that descended on the Capitol had their chance to have a say on Wednesday, hundreds of journalists with cameras were positioned along the protest route to capture the rioters' feelings and anger. But instead of speaking out peacefully, they broke windows, they scaled walls. They entered -- they carried a confederate flag into the Capitol Rotunda. They defecated in the halls of the U.S. Capitol and they killed a police officer.

If you're a regular watcher of NEW DAY, you'll know that for the past five years, we've put together voter panels with dozens of Trump supporters for the expressed purpose of listening to their feelings and motivation. I've always believed in hearing and understanding all sides. But the problem with listening to Trump supporters today versus four years ago is how many of them have become delusional and untethered from reality.

According to Reuters, 68 percent of Trump supporters believe the 2020 election was quote, "rigged and stolen," despite the dozens of Trump appointed judges and Republican Secretaries of State who tell them otherwise. Thirty seven percent of Trump supporters believe the QAnon conspiracy theory that a ring of satanic pedophiles have taken over the U.S. government.

I still believe in hearing all sides, except the crazy violent side. And if you're someone who keeps falling for these lies, you have also lost your right to be heard.

By the way, there are also three networks and dozens of online sites devoted almost exclusively to amplifying President Trump's nonsense, so spare us Senator Ted Cruz and Congressman Mo Brooks and anyone else who thinks that somehow Trump's supporters have been silenced. It's not true.

We've heard them loudly and clearly for years, and their words led to an armed insurrection. We don't need to listen to the madness anymore.

Joining us now are CNN political commentators, Anna Navarro and Alice Stewart. Alice is Communications Director for Senator Ted Cruz's 2016 presidential campaign. I will also bring in John Berman here, who joins us for this conversation. Ladies, great to have you. Alice, am I wrong? Show me am I wrong? Is it time to tune out the

crazy? What more do these people have to say to us that is of value?

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first off, Alisyn, I want to say thank you for sharing your feelings on that because you have given a megaphone and a microphone to Trump supporters.

The problem is what we saw last Wednesday was not an accurate reflection of the core of Trump's base that was like far fringe elements and angry and dangerous element of the Trump base.

And the reality is, 74 million Americans, Republicans came out to vote for this President and they voted for him and they have supported him based on the Republican values and they voted for him knowing he was a horribly flawed candidate, but the alternative for voting for a Democrat was something -- was a bridge too far.

CAMEROTA: And Alice, I hear you and the only reason I'm interrupting is because -- but a majority of Republicans believe that the election was rigged and so on, and so that's not reality. Wherever they're getting their information, that's not reality and I'm not sure why we still need to entertain that.

[08:30:03]