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Trump Supporters Silenced; Self-Pardon for Trump; Ambulance Crews Fell Brunt of Surge in California; Biden to Speed Release of Vaccines. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired January 11, 2021 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: What reality? And I'm not sure why we still need to entertain that.

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's not reality and I've said from the moment the election was called on November 3rd, the election was valid, we need to accept that, we need to congratulate Joe Biden and the Democrats and all those who won. We need to stop spreading misinformation. We need to restore the integrity in our election process and we need to denounce fully any mob violence. You can have free speech, but to instigate and insurrection is completely out of the question with regard to how you go about speaking up.

Now, look, I have said all along, I do not agree with those in the -- in Washington that stood up and tried to oppose the counting of the electoral votes. I feel as though --

CAMEROTA: Including your former boss, Senator Ted Cruz.

STEWART: And I disagreed with that. And I felt it is Congress' job to count and certify the electoral votes and not to challenge them. That's the whole point of the Constitution is to put the election in the hands of the state.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

STEWART: People in the various states, and the state electors, put forth the electors and it's the people, not Congress, that should determine who runs this government. And I think that was a big mistake, not only in challenging them in the first place, but this president inviting and encouraging what we had, which was an insurrection last Wednesday.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And then you had Republicans who refused to stand up to him.

And, Ana, you have Republicans now, like your senator, Marco Rubio, who is standing up and saying, you know, gosh, impeachment just gets in the way of unity now.

What do you think right now of Republicans all of a sudden calling out for this unity? ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, you know,

I'm implored. Both my senators are a pathetic disgrace. Rick Scott, who's the incoming president of -- chair of the NRSC, actually voted along with Cruz and Hawley to sustain those objections.

And as far as Marco asking for unity, let us remember that it was just a month, it was, what, in November that Marco Rubio was at a Trump rally laughing at the idea of Trump supporters driving off Biden supporters off the road in Texas, right? And that -- let's remember that for four years he's been inciting division by claiming that practically every Democrat running was a communist and would turn America into Venezuela. So it's a little rich for them to be calling for unity at this point when they have been doing nothing but embracing a president who has governed through division.

And I want to -- listen, here's -- I want to talk about this because I heard Alice and I think Alice is a decent person. But I just heard Alice say that Donald Trump represents the Republican values. I call bull on that. I call that a lie. He is no Republican. He did not represent Republican values. He represented Donald Trump. And I saw, for the last four years, good Christians compromise their Christian values to support a morally bankrupt man because he gave them a conservative Supreme Court or because he pretended to be against abortion. I saw Republicans who were strong on foreign policy, who would be against things like cow-towing to Putin on Kim Jong-un, look the other way and embrace Donald Trump because he gave there the Cuba policy they wanted or because he moved the embassy in Israel.

And so he threw bones. He threw bones to this base that kept them looking the other way on the big things. And there is no policy, there is no judge, there is nothing that is worth putting in power in the United States an indecent, morally bankrupt man who has divided America, broken us to the point where we are now.

And so until Republicans who embraced them for four years, enabled him, legitimized him, normalized him for four years, acknowledged what they did, we can't move on to unity.

CAMEROTA: Go ahead, Alice.

STEWART: I think it's important to remember that politics is about policy, not personality. And the policies that the Republicans represent have been executed by this president. We're talking about limited government, fiscal responsibility, religious liberty --

CAMEROTA: Fiscal responsibility? He's run the deficit up.

STEWART: Supreme Court, support for Israel, these are issues that are dear to me. These are certainly why the support I have for a man that is tremendously flawed. You're coming from a voice -- I understand, Ana, you have been very consistent. You are a never Trumper.

CAMEROTA: But, Alice, are you saying you still support President Trump?

STEWART: I'm saying Ana speaks from a voice as a never Trumper. I'm coming from a voice as a never again Trumper. I have supported him in the past.

NAVARRO: No, Alice, I speak -- I don't speak as a never Trumper. I never define myself as a never Trumper because I don't define myself by this man. I define myself as an American who puts morality and decency over any policy.

We can -- we can have policy disagreements and we've had it with other presidents.

[08:35:00]

I certainly had them with -- with even Republican presidents. I had it with Obama. But I never thought that they were not fit for the office.

Donald Trump is not fit for the office. And if after the last week you don't acknowledge that, I don't know what else you need to see. If after hearing a president who incites people to violence that has led to deaths, deaths, deaths, you still don't acknowledge that the fact that we put an indecent monster in the White House is far worse than any policy disagreement, I don't know where to start. I don't.

STEWART: Well, if I could finish my sentence. What I did say was that while I support the policies of this president in the past, given the events of last week and inviting an insurrection, I could no longer vote for President Trump. There are plenty of other people that will execute the policies of the Republican Party that will do so in a way that does not create the division and the divisiveness and the dangerousness that we had last week. And I think that is the future of the party.

And there are many people, like myself in the party, that will understand that the party will survive long after this president. But we have to keep in mind, we can take away the social media, we can take away the Oval Office, we can take away the megaphone of President Trump, but there are still hardcore supporters of him that the party needs to take under the fold and into the tent in order for the party to stay strong and continue to be a check and balance on the Democratic Party and this new administration. And that's the important part of this is to make sure that the party right now might be the face of Trump, but when he leaves, we need to make sure that those people that have felt as though they have been disenfranchised and not heard from, they need to be kept into the Republican tent in order for the conservative values to continue.

NAVARRO: I absolutely disagree, Alice. I think that the Republican tent should not be able to embrace white supremacists, domestic terrorists and QAnon conspiracy theories. If that's what the Republican tent looks like, then it's a pretty pathetic tent.

BERMAN: Alice Stewart --

STEWART: And that -- that is not the bulk -- that's not the bulk of what I'm referring to. I'm talking about conservative people and flyover countries that feel as though they have not been heard.

NAVARRO: No, it doesn't matter if it's the bulk of (INAUDIBLE) minority. Not a single one should be embraced. Not a single one of them should be embraced. Not one domestic terrorist. Not one QAnon conspiracy theorist. Not of those people that incited this violence should be embraced.

And I don't care if they voted for Republicans or not, they should be shunned and they should not be embraced by a big tent Republican Party. Those are not Republican values.

STEWART: Those are not the people --

CAMEROTA: We have to go. Obviously, this conversation will continue because it has to after what we saw on Wednesday. Those voices are not going away.

Alice, Ana, thank you both very much.

STEWART: Thank you, Alisyn.

BERMAN: Also thank you for what you had to say.

CAMEROTA: Thanks.

BERMAN: So does President Trump have the power to pardon himself? We have a CNN "Reality Check."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:41:20]

BERMAN: Multiple sources tell CNN that President Trump has been asking his aides and lawyers if he has the power to pardon himself.

John Avlon here with what the founding fathers would have thought about this with a "Reality Check."

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: President Trump's getting ready for a final round of pardons to his crooked crew, even reportedly getting ready to pardon himself.

Now, 88 percent of his pardons to date have gone to political cronies or personal friends. And the founding fathers would have been disgusted by Trump's abuse of the pardon power because it's the opposite of what they intended.

Remember, the founders were focused on restraining the power of the president so he would not turn into a new type of tyrant. At the constitutional convention, George Mason argued that the president, quote, ought not to have the power of pardoning because he may frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself. If he has the power of granting pardons before indictment or a conviction, may he not stop inquiry and prevent detection? Mason warned that this could destroy the republic.

But, wait, some will say, Mason's warning didn't make it into the Constitution's broad, final language. The power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in case of impeachment. In response, I'll raise you Alexander Hamilton, because in Federal 74, Hamilton made it clear that the broad language did not mean the founders believed pardons should operate without ethical constraints. Hamilton assumed the president would be a man of prudence and good sense and explain the lack of checks and balances for pardons were needed because many crimes at the time were punishable by death and, therefore, delay would result in death.

On the subject of sedition, Hamilton argued that in seasons of insurrection or rebellion, there are often critical moments when a well-timed offer of pardon to the insurgents or rebels may restore the tranquility of the commonwealth.

And that's exactly what George Washington did after the whiskey rebellion and Abraham Lincoln intended to do after the Civil War. But if Trump offers amnesty to his supporters, who stormed the U.S. Capitol, it would reward them for an attack on the government, which is not at all what the founders intended.

Which brings us to the final insult, the idea that a president would pardon himself. This is absurd on its face. Under the fundamental role that no one may be a judge in his own case, the president cannot pardon himself. That's the principle side to the 1974 office of legal counsel opinion issued days before Richard Nixon resigned. And there is a rock solid logic to the idea. Because the alternative would put the president above the law, giving him the power to legally excuse any tyrannical action in office.

The founders famously tried to anticipate every eventuality but they fall short in their all-purpose remedy for abuse of power, impeachment. They did not appreciate the presidents were issued their most controversial pardons on their way out the door, making impeachment irrelevant, though impeachment could stop corrupt pardons.

There are a few constraints in place. No pardon can protect a person from prosecutions for crimes that haven't occurred yet. Presidential pardons also do not restrict state and local prosecution. Looking at you, New York. The purpose of the pardon is to do justice, not to excuse injustice. Donald Trump, characteristically, seems hell bent on doing the opposite, to benefit himself.

And that's your "Reality Check."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:48:49]

CAMEROTA: Now to an update on the coronavirus. In just the first 10 days of the year, more than 28,000 American deaths have been reported and nearly 2.4 million new coronavirus cases. Los Angeles County is now the epicenter of the virus.

CNN's Josh Campbell spent time with EMS workers on the front lines of the pandemic.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A grueling 10- hour shift in an ambulance in Los Angeles.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sixty-four thirteen, we're full corona (ph) available.

CAMPBELL: That's what's in store for EMT Sadi Pope, in a county where health officials say a person is dying from COVID every eight minutes.

SADI POPE, EMT: It's definitely shifted in the last month. Just with the call volumes spike, constantly just, we're running and running.

CAMPBELL: Pope, a mother of three and former stay at home mom has been doing this the last six months, a job she loves, but it's taking a toll.

POPE: A few months ago there would be times where we'd sit for a couple of hours just waiting for a call in our area. But now we're lucky if we sit for a half an hour.

CAMPBELL: Her partner, Kyle Doheo (ph), has been an EMT for about a year.

[08:50:01]

KYLE DOHEO (ph), EMT: Every time I come back to work every week it just gets worse and worse.

CAMPBELL: Daily deaths here at times are exceeding all the homicides in the city of Los Angeles in 2019 combined. ICU beds are extremely hard to find. Some EMTs say they've waited outside hospitals with patients for six to eight hours.

CAMPBELL (on camera): How has this impacted you?

MATT HERMAN, EMT: A lot of times I'm just exhausted and I go straight home, eat dinner and go to bed. So it's doing everything I can to get my rest, eat as much as I can and then just try to stay healthy so I can keep going.

CAMPBELL (voice over): Ambulance supervisor Carolyn Caroway (ph) allowed CNN to right along with her teams while helping them endure the crushing hospital waits.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm constantly talking to them, you know, checking in on them, seeing how they're doing. My truck is filled with snacks and Gatorades just to -- to help, you know, get them through the day.

CAMPBELL (on camera): Where they going?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, let's see.

CAMPBELL (voice over): There's no letup today. A new 911 call is in.

CAMPBELL (on camera): Do you know what that call is?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So this one's going to be a COVID positive patient.

CAMPBELL (voice over): At the scene, the EMTs quickly put on full personal protective equipment. With the patient placed on a gurney, they are rushed to a nearby hospital, where, according to Caroway, eight care ambulances are already standing by with other patients.

Car (ph) tells us the patient we watched them transport will eventually wait more than three hours before getting a hospital bed.

Five hours into her shift, we catch up with Sadi Pope after transferring a COVID patient.

CAMPBELL (on camera): Did you ever think going into this field are you would be in a place where you're taking these kind of precautions for youself as you're also trying to help other people?

POPE: I wasn't expecting anything like this. But, yes, it's a big deal because I'm with these patients all day and then I go home to my kids. So I'm just definitely trying to be aware of the people around me and be smart about what I'm doing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMPBELL: Now, experts continue to warn about this so-called COVID fatigue. And that is so many people in our nation that has been gripped by this virus for a year or simply at a breaking point. Although these vaccines are giving people hope with max vaccinations still months away, the first responders that we spoke with are imploring the public to just hold on, just hold on, follow the guidance of public health officials. They don't want the next 911 call to be for you.

Alisyn. John.

BERMAN: You know, this is a time when we need to do the most work, put in the most effort to make sure this doesn't get worse.

Josh, thanks, so much for being with us.

President-elect Joe Biden's vaccine distribution plan still in flux just days before his inauguration. CNN has learned that the president- elect wants to release nearly all available doses of the vaccine to accelerate the number of Americans being vaccinated.

Joining us now, CNN medical analyst, Dr. Leana Wen. She's the former Baltimore city health commissioner.

Dr. Wen, what this basically means is the Trump administration is holding back the second dose, making sure that they have a guaranteed second dose of the vaccine for every person that gets the first dose.

The Biden team is going to approach this a little bit differently.

You think it's a bad idea.

Why? DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Well, I certainly agree with the

Biden team that we need a lot more urgency in this effort because I think if you had told us a month ago when the Pfizer vaccine was first given authorization that we would be at less than 7 million doses distributed and administered at this time, it would be -- it would be unthinkable. So we definitely need more urgency.

But we need to look at where the problem is. The problem, the bottleneck, is with distribution and administration. It's that last mile is the problem, that people are not getting the actual vaccines in arms. It's not actually supplies. So you can flood the market with supply, but unless you can fix the distribution administration problems, we're not actually solving for the real issue here.

And I really worry about going potentially against the science. There has to be a guarantee of a second dose, timely distribution of that second dose for anyone who receives the first dose. Otherwise, we're going against the science and we're -- we could also be fueling vaccine hesitancy for individual who don't know that we are not taking shortcuts as we have been promising all along.

CAMEROTA: I want to ask you more about the vaccinations. They are woefully few. You know, a fraction of what the Trump administration projected. And we know that they dropped the ball in terms of getting it done.

President-elect Joe Biden has said that his goal is 100 million vaccinations in his first 100 days. Is that realistic given how hard we've seen this already in the past month?

WEN: I think it's not only realistic. I actually think it's a relatively low bar for us to aim at. Don't get me wrong, we need to get there, but we saw in our peak thus far there has been at least one day where we've had nearly 800,000 vaccination delivered on a single day. So getting to a million we know is possible.

Also in this country there are more than 100,000 pharmacies.

[08:55:00]

So getting to a million requires these pharmacies to be doing ten shots a day, which I think is very possible.

We need to go way beyond this, though. I calculate that we need about 3 million vaccinations to be done a day in order for us to reach herd immunity by the fall. And so we really need to ramp up. And the way to do that is through mass vaccination clinics, having an army of vaccinators around the country, setting up these mass vaccination sites and really launching a war-time effort because that's what's required at this point.

BERMAN: We're nowhere near that, though, I don't think, as we sit here today. I mean we had the best day you said was 800,000, but that far outpaces the other. We're at 7 million right now after having been doing this for a month. Honestly, we're nowhere close to where we should be right no you. WEN: I cannot agree with you more. And, again, I think if you had said

to us a month ago that this is where we would be, all of us would find that really disappointing. So I think we need to now acknowledge that the way that this vaccination rollout has gone so far has just not worked. The rules are too stringent. There is a big issue with supply and demand. And I think we should be aiming for maximal flexibility, empowering local jurisdictions to roll out vaccines as quickly as possible, but not in a way that compromises that second dose.

I think there are major, ethical problems with giving people a first dose with the expectation that they will receive a second dose in time as was studied and then if there are production snags or if we just cannot administer the vaccines quickly enough, if people cannot get that second dose in time, I don't know how I'm going to be able to convince my patients to even get the first dose unless they are guaranteed that timely second dose.

BERMAN: Dr. Leana Wen, thanks so much for being with us this morning, help us understand where we are and where we should be with this.

A lot of news this morning. The first steps towards the second historic impeachment of Donald Trump could begin this morning.

CNN's coverage continues right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Monday morning to you. The start of a consequential week. I'm Jim Sciutto.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: It absolutely is the beginning of a monumental week in Washington and for the nation. And it may end with President Trump being the first president ever to be impeached twice.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

[09:00:01]