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New York Times Reports, House Democrats Briefed on Specific Threats to U.S. Capitol and Lawmakers; President Trump Fails to Lead During and After Insurrection at U.S. Capitol; Two Congresswomen Test Positive for Coronavirus After Capitol Riot. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired January 12, 2021 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN NEW DAY: This morning for more domestic terror attacks after the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol.

[07:00:04]

CNN has obtained an FBI bulletin warning about plans for armed protests in all 50 states and Washington, D.C, ahead of Joe Biden's inauguration. The New York Times reports this morning that law enforcement is planning for a number of worst case scenarios, including snipers and active shooters, suicide aircraft attacks and even armed drones.

Two U.S. Capitol police officers have been charged and nearly a dozen others are under investigation for their roles in this insurrection.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEW DAY: So in the middle of all this, according to The Washington Post, President Trump was, quote, paralyzed, they say, and glued to his T.V. while members of Congress desperately tried to call him for help during the insurrection. With the new threats to the country, why haven't we heard from the FBI, Justice Department or Homeland Security? Why aren't there daily briefings to the public about what's being done and what they will do prior to inauguration? The acting Homeland Security secretary also just resigned.

And while lawmakers move to formally call on Vice President Pence to oust the president and invoke the 25th Amendment to oust the president, it's not likely. Vice President Pence met with Donald Trump yesterday. They seem to suggest they were going to serve out their term. So now what this means is that the House will vote to impeach the president tomorrow for a second time.

Joining us now CNN Correspondent and former FBI Special Agent Josh Campbell and CNN Counterterrorism Analyst and former FBI Senior Intelligence Adviser Phil Mudd.

Josh, I just want to start with you. With the nature of what Democratic lawmakers were told overnight about threats to the U.S. Capitol, threats to the inauguration, layer that on top of what else we are now hearing about threats to all 50 U.S. state capitols.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we are watching this in slow motion. This isn't a threat that we will be surprised to see. We know that the threats are there based on what we have seen online, based on what we saw at the United States Capitol.

And this is something that those of us who study violence on the right and the left have been warning about and that is we know that within President Trump's base, there is a small element of fringe people. We saw some of them engage in this attack on the United States Capitol. They are believing the lies that this election was stolen. They are believing that democracy was upended by the Democrats because President Trump has been telling them that.

And, you know, it's hard to get into the mindset of somebody's people, but Phil knows as well having studied terrorists, that these threats are stratified. You have some people who may be just be sympathetic. You have others who could be very dangerous. That is what law enforcement is on alert for right now, these people who are believing in this nonsense that President Trump continues to fuel that this election has been stolen and I think we will see very, very deadly consequences.

CAMEROTA: Phil, what about that? I mean, these are people who it sounds like have been radicalized. You're a counterterrorism expert. These are extremists. This is homegrown terror as we've heard our lawmakers describe it, domestic terror. I mean, how are they supposed to stop whatever is going to happen in the next six days?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: They can't. Look, there's a couple things you have got to think about here. When I was back in the counterterrorism days back after 9/11, you might talking about a few thousand people that you would be worried about. Look, there's 80 million-plus followers of the president on Twitter. You can't figure out what every one of them is thinking in their head.

There's a couple things I would think about here though in the interim. First, it goes without saying in every state capitol, if our king, I would be saying the security presence is going to be so onerous that the people are going to complain and it's overkill.

But the second thing, and this is what's really significant, Alisyn, and this is why I would be a little concerned about what's going on in the White House and all the turmoil on top of agencies is, 50 states can't collect the information, for example, scraping the internet for people who are extremists and do their own intelligence work.

There has to be a nerve center working with DHS, Homeland Security, that is with the FBI, to put out information real-time. That nerve center has to be coordinated by the White House. That's how it would have been when I was back in there because that's the only place that has the power to tell all those agencies what to do.

So my question is, who is running the nerve center and do they have the fire power immediately to respond to threats from New York to California real-time? That's what I would be worried about.

BERMAN: I have to tell you, I wonder if anyone is running the nerve center. I mean, you say who is. I want to know if someone is. Sorry, Josh, I didn't mean to cut you off. CAMPBELL: No, no. I was just going to say, I agree with what Phil said. The thing I would say when it comes to trying to stop threats is you can't stop every threat, but the president of the United States held an Oval Office of address and called on these people to back down, if he made the decision to actually attend the inauguration, thereby conferring legitimacy on this election, I think that would go a long way into lessening some of the danger that we are going to see.

You can't stop it all, but, again, he has a role here to play and he has not played that role, which is actually making law enforcement's job that much harder.

BERMAN: Oh, please, Axios is reporting overnight that he was telling Kevin McCarthy that Antifa was behind the insurrection and behind the violence.

[07:05:00]

So he's doing the opposite of that. There is no news conference from the president where he's going to tell -- I don't there is, where he's going to tell people to go home. He's not going to the inauguration.

Josh, I want to know where Christopher Wray is, why we're not hearing from the FBI every day right now.

CAMPBELL: Yes, it's inexplicable. And that is this growing criticism, this lack of response from federal law enforcement speaking out publicly. And you know, I mean, I've been of the most vocal critics of these political hacks who have tried to malign (ph) that agency over the years.

But I think it's hard to counter this type of criticism because if you look at how the FBI and the Justice Department handle any type of attack in the past, they come out, they hold a press conference, for two reasons, first, to explain what the hell just happened but, secondly, to help calm the fears of the public, to talk about what potential threat might be out there. We haven't seen that in this case. What we've seen is essentially management by press releases and tweets.

And the problem is this fuels this narrative that right wing violence is handled differently than left wing violence because had this been Antifa storming the Capitol or ISIS, you can bet the law enforcement would be tripping over themselves to get to the microphone to try to reassure the public about what just happened. We're not seeing that here.

And I finally -- well, I'll just say it's not just the FBI, it's also the Department of Homeland Security. You go back and look last year whenever the far-left extremists were attacking that federal building in downtown Portland, Oregon, you have the acting head of DHS fly out there for this weird photo op where he's standing there next to all the tactical agents with his aviator glasses, projecting the image that the department will not stand for violence. We're not seeing any of that. We're seeing press releases. We're seeing tweets. CAMEROTA: Phil, I just want to dive into that. Chad Wolf, the head of the Department of Homeland Security, abruptly resigned last night. He had promised to stay through or I guess announce that he was going to be staying through the Biden transition and then last night, he couldn't wait nine more days.

And so without him at the helm, as you've pointed out, without the chief of the Capitol police, who also resigned in the wake of the insurrection, the head of the Senate sergeant in arms, the House sergeant in arms, I'm a little concerned about the on-the-job learning that people who are now filling in for them are going to do over the next nine days.

MUDD: I would be concerned if I were you too. By the way, if we want to get with it, I agree with what Director Wray is doing. I can explain it in a moment, but I think he's right to stay silent for the moment. But to your question about on-the-job training, my concern would be how you, for example, deploy National Guard forces, how you look at sheriffs and police departments across the United States. They practice this kind of stuff all the time. My concern would be other things.

Number one, where is the unified flow of information and intelligence going out from a central note in Washington, D.C.? And the most significant that I have been worried about starting with yesterday, the day before when I saw the inexplicable move that Chad Wolf took, especially if you look at for his explanation why. It was ridiculous.

But my point is if there's a weird event, if there's an event where you see a hostage situation, where you see people with multiple weapons going into a state capitol, that's where you really need experience, you need seniority, you need someone in the chair to say, okay, guys. This is what you're doing. The day-to-day people can do the day-to-day. When you get outside that day-to-day, that's when I want to see some senior leadership.

CAMEROTA: And, Phil, quickly, tell us the counterpoint of why you think that Chris Wray at the FBI is doing the right thing by staying silent.

MUDD: Well, he should speak soon, but two reasons why, number one, if you were on this podium right now, people would be asking about the Capitol. That's not his responsibility. He's not responsible for the Capitol police. And he's looking forward to January 20th, not back.

Number two, if you're going to speak about January 20th, I would get a little bit closer. People are already wound up. Get closer where the intelligence clarifies and you can have a message that's clear. It's too early, I think.

CAMEROTA: Okay. Gentlemen, thank you both very much. We really appreciate your expertise in all of these matters.

So, as these threats grow, President Trump has, of course, failed to lead or speak out. Maybe that should have been written stronger. Our next guest says the president was pleased watching his extremist supporters fight for him and destroy the U.S. Capitol.

Joining us now is CNN Political Analyst Maggie Haberman. She's a White House Correspondent at The New York Times.

Maggie, I just have to ask you about that reporting that you have focused on. The lawmakers were calling President Trump's cell phone for help begging for him to send backup or do something to save their lives while they were cowering and these domestic terrorists were marauding through the U.S. Capitol and he was too busy watching T.V. to do anything.

MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: So I have slightly different reporting, Alisyn, that we reported last week, which is it's not that he was too busy because he was so consumed, which he was. He was engaging with aides as this was all going on. They were interrupting, telling him he had to do something. They were interrupting telling him that the Capitol was being overrun by his supporters.

[07:10:02]

He was well aware of it. He was watching it. He was pleased because it was people fighting on his behalf. He was pleased because he liked the scene. And he was pleased because it was delaying the certification of the Electoral College vote. And those are the reasons why this happened.

It wasn't just that the T.V. was put in front of him and you couldn't get his attention, which is a very different thing. He knew what was happening. He was back and forth from the small dining room where he watches television off the Oval Office to the resolute desk. He just didn't want to do anything.

CAMEROTA: Did he understand that they could have been killed? Did he understand that they brought in those, you know, wrist ties and that -- yes, and that people could have been killed?

HABERMAN: Look, I think most of us didn't actually know that in real- time. But whether he knew that, he was hearing from people who were trapped in there, who could see what was going on. The images that most of the world got have been worse and worse, one after the other, and they have come out since the day of the riot.

What lawmakers were seeing as they were cowering and running was much more explicit than what we were seeing from outside the building for the most part outside the building. So, he was aware of what was going on.

There were lawmakers reaching out not just to him but to his chief of staff, to other people at the White House. And the only thing that really seemed to snap him out of it, according to my sources, and, again, we reported this last week too, is that he was told that he would have legal exposure based on what was going on because of what he said at the rally that preceded it.

BERMAN: Maggie, I'm really interested in what he's doing now and might do over the next eight days. Axios reported that he was telling Kevin McCarthy yesterday that he thought Antifa was behind the insurrection at the Capitol, which is stunning. For any Republican who may vote on impeachment thinking the president learned a lesson, Axios reporting that should get in their head before they vote. But also, you know, he has got eight days left to pardon people, potentially including himself here. So what are you expecting to see?

HABERMAN: So that, I think, is happening. There was a meeting yesterday at the White House related to pardons. I think there's going to be another meeting at the white house related to pardons later this week, possibly as soon as tomorrow, where they're going to talk about the pardons that they're going to do. And then I think you will see those other dribble out over the final days or they will come in the 19th.

And the big question, John, does he pardon himself? Now, he has been told, as you have reported and we have reported that he has been told by Bill Barr, the former attorney general, and Pat Cipollone, the White House counsel, that he should not do this, that this is just risky territory for a variety of reasons. One of his advisers told him that he would potentially be giving up his Fifth Amendment rights if he does a thing like this going forward. And yet, most of his advisers still think he is probably going to do it.

I don't expect to see a whole lot else here, John. There was a big meeting on Friday, last Friday, with Lindsey Graham, Jared Kushner, others at the White House trying to lay out a plan for Trump to do a series of events to highlight accomplishments. You will notice that yesterday, he didn't have a single event all day. So that should tell you about where his head is.

CAMEROTA: But he did meet with Vice President Pence?

HABERMAN: He did.

CAMEROTA: And you have great reporting, Maggie, on what happened there. Because we had heard through the reporting that Mike Pence was understandably upset that President Trump had not called to check on him after he and members of his family had to take shelter, shelter in place and hide from this deadly insurrection. And so how did this meeting go?

HABERMAN: Look, Mike Pence is, at the end of the day, not somebody who is going to look for conflict. He's just not particularly with somebody who is still the president and Mike Pence is aware that there is a need -- everybody around the president is aware that there's a need to land the plane. But it is true that Pence was really angry not just about the violence that took place but the days of treatment that he got from the president leading up to it.

The president, as one person said to me, was cruel to Mike Pence in a way that he really never has been over the years. And so there was just an enormous amount of frustration on the side of the Pence staff and Pence himself.

This meeting, I'm told, lasted about an hour. It got things to a better place. I think it's worth remembering, as we hear about that meeting and possibly others where the president might be trying to reconcile with people, he is -- look, we described him as isolated at various points over the last four years. He really is. There is nobody agreeing with him. And that, for him, is generally one of the few ways that he starts turning around his own behavior even if it's temporary. But it's always about how it impacts him, not how it impacts other people.

CAMEROTA: How does he plan to or is he handling impeachment?

HABERMAN: Not well, John. He is not happy about it. He knows that this would be a historic first where he could be the first president -- I think will be the first president to be impeached twice. He has been getting riled up by some of his supporters to get angry because they're trying to focus him. Because one of the things he is being over the last four years in addition to somebody who foments plenty of his own fury and anger is something of a guided missile for some of his supporters, and we have seen that time and again.

[07:15:02]

He is angrier at the moment about the fact that the PGA pulled a tournament from one of his golf clubs next year in 2022. That was as, one adviser said to me, one of the few things he was looking forward to. That is telling also people can take from that what they want. But he is worried about impeachment. And I suspect that when the vote happens, we'll be when we start hearing from him more.

CAMEROTA: That's interesting, Maggie. And it's not just the PGA tournament, Twitter obviously banning him. We've also heard new reporting that Deutsche Bank, his largest lender is severing ties with him. He still owes them $300 million, I believe. So I'm not sure it's in their --

HABERMAN: It could be more.

CAMEROTA: Okay. So I don't know if it's in their best interest to sever ties, but, luckily, he's raised that amount from supporters since the election, so he might be able to just sign that over to them.

So it sounds like there are other just big kind of corporate, visible announcements of people stepping away from Donald Trump.

HABERMAN: There are. And, look, Deutsche Bank was the big one. Deutsche Bank was a bank that lent him money when no other bank wanted to touch him and that violence at the Capitol by Trump supporters, a police officer killed, others killed, we're now hearing about Congress members having contracted the coronavirus while they were in hiding while this was going on because there were members, most of them, if not all, were Republicans who wouldn't wear masks. You know, this was the bridge too far for them.

But there are other companies that are stepping away from the president and from Republicans, in general, companies like Marriott who have said they are going to put a pause on donations. Now, the president has created this whole new movement in terms of grassroots donations among Republicans, and there are a lot of Republicans who are hoping that can keep them going. That's going to require leaning on Trump. And Republicans are going to have to decide how aggressively they want to do that going forward.

BERMAN: Maggie Haberman, thank you so much for your help and your reporting this morning, as always.

HABERMAN: Thanks, guys.

BERMAN: We're getting new information in about how many Republicans may vote to impeach the president.

Also, new information about the lingering effects of the insurrection on Capitol Hill. Members now suffering in new ways, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:20:00]

CAMEROTA: Democratic Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal was supposed to appear on New Day this morning but she cancelled late last night because she tested positive for coronavirus and started feeling very sick. Congresswoman Jayapal and Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman have both tested positive since being locked down during the Capitol siege with Republican members who refused to wear masks.

Congresswoman Jayapal says in a statement only hours after President Trump incited the deadly assault on our Capitol, our country and our democracy, many Republicans still refuse to take the bare minimum COVID-19 precaution and simply wear a damn mask in a crowded room during a pandemic, creating a super-spreader event on top of a domestic terrorist attack.

Jayapal wants serious fines for any members who refuse to wear a mask in the Capitol. Obviously, we wish her a speedy recovery. We will monitor her health.

Joining us now is her colleague, Democratic Congressman Conor Lamb. Congressman, thank you very much for being here and we really appreciate you parachuting in late last night to help us on the program after we found out that Congresswoman Jayapal was so sick. I want to put up the names of your Republican colleagues who trapped inside a small room when they were handed masks refused to do it. This is Georgia Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, Arizona Congressman Andy Biggs, Texas Rep Michael Cloud, Oklahoma Rep Markwayne Mullin, Pennsylvania Rep Scott Perry, California Rep Doug LaMalfa.

Did these members put others' lives at risk?

REP. CONOR LAMB (D-PA): Absolutely. I mean, we're the middle of a pandemic. So even if there wasn't a domestic terror attack under way, it's more than clear at this point that you have to wear a mask to protect people around you. So, of course, they did and they chose to do it anyway. CAMEROTA: And do you think -- I mean, what should be the repercussions for them?

LAMB: Well, you know, it's hard to say. I mean, we've continued to impose new rules around the Capitol about wearing masks and enforce them the best we can. Certainly something like fines could come into play, I suppose. But the nature of Congress is each member is sort of their own boss or I guess you could say their constituents are their boss. And so it's a little bit hard to regulate their behavior all the time, especially in the midst of an emergency like that.

I tend to think that the most sort of transparency and even shaming of these people, whether it's with respect to this or with respect to their role in the big lie and the attack last week is probably the most effective tool that we have.

CAMEROTA: As if your own security wasn't threatened enough, so you all were under siege during this deadly insurrection. Obviously, there's a pandemic. And now, what we've heard from all of our law enforcement sources is that there are very concerning threats to lawmaker's lives in these next, you know, nine days leading up to the inauguration. And I know that you all were briefed by law enforcement last night. Can you tell us about that?

LAMB: Yes. I mean, what our briefing confirmed is that this is not simply an ongoing criminal investigation, which it is. We're in the midst of an ongoing series of crimes and an ongoing threat to the United States Capitol, to our institutions, to communities all around the United States. And that's why what we're doing is different than the impeachment that came before than other things we've done with respect to President Trump before.

[07:25:02]

This is an action purely taken in terms of public safely. We are trying to stop the active threat coming from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. He is the person who ties together all of these different hate groups, white supremacy groups, whatever you want to call them. They were literally checking their phones and responding to his words and videos in real-time. I mean, he tweeted out something about Mike Pence and all of a sudden the crowd is chanting, hang Mike Pence, in the middle of the Capitol.

So, we have to do a lot of different things to counter this threat the same way we would any threat on our Capitol. And I know that has happened quickly and it's a lot for people to digest and they have questions about the practicalities of it, but we can learn an hour from now that this president is pardoning some of the people responsible or doing what he often does, which is do something else insane in order to distract from what he's done, you know, ordering a military attack or doing something with the powers of his office to cover up what's happened. And it's what makes this impeachment and his immediate removal from office and his bar from future office so necessary.

CAMEROTA: And I do want to get to the impeachment in one second, but, first, from what you were told last night in your law enforcement briefing, do you believe that Joe Biden should still proceed with this traditional outside inauguration on the steps of the U.S. Capitol, or given all of these heightened tensions, the deadly insurrection, should this year he do something different?

LAMB: I believe that Joe Biden was elected president by a huge margin because the American people trust him to exercise powers of commander in chief. And I saw him on T.V. yesterday say he's not afraid to do this outside. And I agree with him and I believe him. And so if that's what he wants to do, I'll be right there beside him because I think the most important thing is to continue showing all Americans that no matter how impassioned and, you know, committed these people who attacked the Capitol are, we are more committed. And that's why it was so important for us to go in last week after the attack and finish the certification and I think that's why it's important for us to have a very public inauguration to show people that our institutions just simply won't be defeated.

CAMEROTA: Does it concern you that Chad Wolf, the head of the Homeland Security Department, resigned last night?

LAMB: Well, I guess it's one fewer vote for the 25th Amendment, so it would have been good if he stuck around for that purpose. But in most of the briefings that I've been a part of, it has been the new leadership of the Capitol police, FBI, military, National Guard, it has been other agencies besides Homeland Security that seem to be carrying most of the responsibility for the inauguration and for the days to come. And so I think we are pretty well covered. I mean, they're talking about 15,000 National Guard troops.

But to go back to your earlier question, the threats we are facing are very specific. I don't want anyone watching at home to think that we're just sort of imagining that things could be bad. They are talking about 4,000 armed patriots to surround the Capitol and prevent any Democrat from going in. And they have published rules of engagement, meaning, when you shoot and when you don't.

So, this is an organized group that has a plan. They are committed to doing what they're doing because I think in their minds, you know, they are patriots and they're talking about 1776. And so this is now a contest of wills. We are not negotiating with or reasoning with these people. They have to be prosecuted. They have to be stopped. And, unfortunately, that includes the president, which is why he needs to be impeached and removed from office.

CAMEROTA: So these, to be clear, are specific, credible threats that you've heard that law enforcement is believe are legitimate and they are taking seriously and planning for?

LAMB: Yes.

CAMEROTA: About impeachment, it sounds like what you're saying is that this is more than just a ceremony, this is more than just sending a signal to the world that the president of the United States can't do this, it sounds like what you're saying is that you all believe in the House, Democrats, that you are laying the ground work in order to -- for the Senate to be able to act very quickly if something else happens in the next nine days.

LAMB: That's correct. And, hopefully, it won't just be Democrats that reach that conclusion. But, you know, after what we saw last week, and the way the president both incited the riot and then refused to act to calm it down, you know, as people were being killed, a police officer was killed here, another took his own life it appears over the weekend, this person cannot be trusted a single second to continue to exercise these power of this office.

And I think people really need to think about what if you learned an hour from now that he was pardoning all the people who have been arrested? The powers of his office probably allow him to do that, you know?

[07:30:02]

And if he did that at this moment, I think the Senate would end their recess and be back in session to hold a trial immediately.