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Trump Impeached for Inciting Insurrection, 10 Republicans Voted with Democrats; Preparations Underway for Senate Trial After Historic Trump Impeachment; Sources: Trump Could Issue Pardons Today to Distract from Impeachment. Aired 5-5:30a ET

Aired January 14, 2021 - 05:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: President Trump made history as the only president ever to be impeached twice, this time on a bipartisan vote in the U.S. House.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a domestic threat at the door of the Capitol. He did nothing to stop it.

REP. PETER MEIJER (R-MI): This was a vote of conscience. This is where my conscience led me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's in self-pity mode. He feels like not enough people have come out to defend him.

JIM COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: People who are wandering around exercising their First Amendment rights don't bring ropes, and ladders, and sledgehammers to a spontaneous event. This was a planned assault.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More protection than more protesters here now outside the United States Capitol.

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ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is a special edition of NEW DAY. It's Thursday, January 14th. It's 5:00 in New York.

This morning, preparations are underway for the Senate trial of Donald Trump, twice impeached, social media pariah, soon to be former president of the United States who, according to "The New York Times," was still walking around Air Force One this week telling people, "I won. I won the election."

The trial will begin after he leaves office next week. House managers tell CNN they have not yet decided whether or not to seek witnesses or subpoena documents. Overnight, President-elect Joe Biden urged lawmakers not to let the

trial get in the way of doing the crucial work of fighting the pandemic. Ten House Republicans voted in favor of Trump's impeachment. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says he has not ruled out voting to convict Trump and there are new developments this morning as to how many Republican senators feel the same way.

As for Trump himself, he is now seething at Rudy Giuliani, his disgraced lawyer who helped get him impeached twice. He doesn't want to pay Giuliani anymore.

We're also hearing a new round of pardons could come as soon as today, so brace yourselves.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And developing overnight, a new intelligence bulletin warns the domestic extremists are likely more emboldened to carry out attacks after the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol which they see as a success. Investigators warn that online chatter is, quote, off the charts. The National Guard preparing to find improvised explosive devices like pipe bombs and Molotov cocktails ahead of next week's inauguration of Joe Biden.

All of this as law enforcement, federal law enforcement official tells CNN that the evidence uncovered so far suggests that the siege at the Capitol was planned. We have brand-new video this morning that captures more of how violent this attack was. This was not a simple protest gone wrong. The FBI says it has received tens of thousands of digital tips, including some that appear to show members of Congress with individuals who later showed up at that insurrection.

So we begin with CNN's Suzanne Malveaux. She is live on Capitol Hill with our top story.

What's the latest, Suzanne?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, impeachment 2.0 very different from the one we covered back in December of 2019. It was lightning speed for that second impeachment. Now, House managers already debating and trying to figure out how can they prosecute this on the Senate side quickly and still get Republicans on their side, 2/3 majority that's necessary in order to actually have a conviction.

So they're looking at potentially calling witnesses, subpoenaing documents but they don't want it to last too long to interfere with the new president, President Joe Biden, from getting what he needs to get done. But we did see this go round, 10 Republicans peeling away from their party, from the president and essentially saying that the president must be held accountable. That is the same case, same argument they'll make on the Senate side.

Take a listen.

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REP. PETER MEIJER (R-MI): Unless we address this and tackle it head on, unless we make sure to send a resounding message that this is not acceptable, then we risk just papering over some of these divisions and the wounds will never truly heal unless we air them out, unless we fully understand what happened and unless we send the signal this is not something that can ever be acceptable from an American leader.

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MALVEAUX: Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is kicking it forward to the Democrats when they take over in the new session, the 117th session of Congress. And it will be up to them to establish the rules and essentially the trial that will take place. There is some concern among the Biden administration whether or not this will interfere in his own agenda.

This statement coming from the president-elect saying: This nation also remains in the grip of a deadly virus and a reeling economy. I hope that the Senate leadership will find a way to deal with their constitutional responsibilities on impeachment while also working on the other urgent business of this nation. Alisyn, very much a sensitivity, but they plan on working with the administration trying to push this through. They know that it's important just because the president -- President Trump is out of office.

[05:05:03]

If they get a conviction, that means he will no longer hold a federal office ever again -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: This is not over. Suzanne, thank you very much.

So last night, the White House finally released a video message from President Trump in which he finally condemned the violence, though he did not concede that he lost.

CNN's Joe Johns is live for us at the White House with more.

So what he did he say?

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

Well, the second impeachment now on the books and the president essentially releases that self-serving video telling his supporters to stop the violence. Self-serving because the president had been told by his own advisers at the White House that he needed to do something because he's in legal jeopardy due to his role in the riots last week.

Just the same, the president did not say anything on the video about Joe Biden, about the impeachment, or even the transfer of power coming next week. As one advisor put it, the president is in self-pity mode and he's blaming everybody who's around him. An advisor also saying in the end it all came crashing down because he could never tell the truth. This will be the story you tell your kids when you lecture them about telling the truth.

So the president now, we're told, has also been suggesting to people around him that they need to stop paying Rudy Giuliani's legal fees. That's potentially unfortunate because there is some reporting that Rudy Giuliani might have a role in the president's upcoming impeachment trial, but we are told that the president is blaming Giuliani and others for not doing enough to defend him.

One other note, we've also been told there's a distinct possibility that the latest round of pardons could come as early as today. We're told by some advisers that the president has been told it's not a good idea for the president to pardon himself or members of his own family, especially in light of the riots up on Capitol Hill last week, but the president wants to exercise the amount of power that he has left.

Back to you.

BERMAN: All right. Joe Johns, thanks so much for being with us.

Joining us now, CNN senior political analyst John Avlon and CNN political analyst Rachael Bade. She is a reporter for "Politico".

And, Rachael, what does your reporting tell you about what we can expect to see in the Senate?

RACHAEL BADE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah. I mean, I think it's still an open question right now. The really interesting thing is Mitch McConnell right now saying basically he is open to convicting, not in so many words, but very much signaling that.

I mean, go back to a year ago they were just about to start an impeachment trial where McConnell had said he would be in, quote, total coordination with the White House and, you know, remember last year, McConnell was single handedly the reason Trump got acquitted so quickly in just a couple of weeks. He was able to keep his conference together, except for Mitt Romney. This time is going to be different.

I mean, we've already seen people like Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, Ben Sasse with Nebraska come out and say Trump committed impeachable offenses. The question is if they move to convict him. And I think, you know, if there's going to be a real discussion if you watch Joe Manchin, who is a Democrat from West Virginia, he's been talking about of course Trump deserves to be impeached.

But he said, he thinks this move is, quote, ill advised. He is concerned about the unity of the country and that's just sort of stirring things up again and then also concerned about Joe Biden -- Biden's agenda being totally sort of rum rolled completely by an impeachment trial.

So, I think a lot of senators, it will be interesting to see where they come down on this whole unity of the country versus, you know, wanting to send a strong signal that what happened on January 6th is absolutely unacceptable and we're going to see people potentially crossing party lines in multiple places.

CAMEROTA: Hey, John, anybody who's concerned about unity of the country and an impeachment creating divisiveness may not have been paying attention for the past weeks plus. I mean, I heard Senator Lindsey Graham, you know, saying they just impeached him without evidence. May I remind Republicans who didn't vote for impeachment yesterday what the evidence is.

Here's some of the tape that we can show you of last Wednesday of the evidence. Here are people who brought bull horns, who brought floor plans of the capitol awaiting instruction for where they could go find Mike Pence to hang the vice president, as they were chanting, as they brought in their spears, et cetera.

I mean, this is just -- I don't understand the logic for people who say, whoa, an impeachment trial could really cause some disunity.

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JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah. It would be incredibly divisive if the impeachment went forward but, you know, let's sort of put to the side any plans that were handed out to protestors and their attempts to potentially kidnap or execute members of our government, including the vice president, to try to stop the peaceful transfer of power.

That's why there needs to be accountability before there is unity. And, yesterday, look, you know, the fact that ten Republicans signed on in the House to the impeachment is historic. It may not sound like a lot given the severity of the charges and the evidence that we have all seen, but it is the most bipartisan impeachment in American history. Donald Trump is the only president to be impeached twice and he now owns 50 percent of all the impeachments in U.S. history.

That leaves a mark. And I think, you know, if there's every indication that you will see a bipartisan margin in the Senate when it gets there, and that's before full information gets out about who knew what when in advance of this insurrection attack on the Capitol.

BERMAN: It's interesting, Rachael. "The New York Times" reporting overnight, it really strikes me, and I know it seems trite but the president walking around Air Force One on Tuesday of this week after the insurrection at the Capitol, walking around Air Force One with Lindsey Graham, mind you, the afore mentioned Lindsey Graham whose role on all of this will be studied for generations under the definition of spineless among other things.

But it says, on Air Force One on Tuesday, during a trip to the southern border at Alamo, Texas, the president repeatedly said of the election of people traveling with him, "I won."

I mean, if that doesn't tell you everything this morning about the president's mindset, and I think inform Republicans who will vote on conviction, I don't know what does because, yes, he released this video about violence last night, but he never said and has never said he lost the election.

BADE: Yeah. I think there's a desire for more people to hear from Republicans say that generally. You hear some of them on Capitol Hill but very few still willing to go out there and say, look, the president is wrong. Joe Biden won this election.

I think it's going to be interesting to see what this trial -- how long does it go? Impeachment trials have gone from 21 days to, you know, 80 some days in terms of calling in witnesses, seeing evidence. There is a strong desire on the part of some Democrats to move on, and I know they won't say that publicly because of, you know, blowback from the base let alone just general people who think there need to be accountability, and rightfully so, but there privately is a desire to move quickly.

And if they just have a couple of days, we might not see a lot of witnesses, we might not see a lot of evidence, however, there is a lot of evidence. And, you know, the witnesses and the stories are astounding and so I do think it will be interesting to see, do they go for like a really -- a real trial, you know, where they bring people in, have people who, you know, were hiding under their desks on January 6th telling their story?

I think those could be really moving and you would see a lot more, perhaps, Republicans vote to convict or do they just, you know, sort of move quickly, again, to get to the Biden agenda which, again, a lot of Democrats are concerned about how long this is going to run and what it's going to mean for the transition of power for the new president.

CAMEROTA: People were saying good-bye to their families. People were texting their families to say good-bye as they did in a previous terror attack, 9/11. And so, that brings us to Rudy Giuliani, John. Apparently there's a rift now, and Rudy Giuliani's calls can't get through to President Trump.

I mean, you can set your watch to the time when a close ally and close friend is then, you know, summarily dismissed by Donald Trump. We've seen it time and again, because number one we're told the reporting he didn't like the $20,000 a day bill that Rudy Giuliani was giving him to represent him.

BERMAN: I'd pay half as much to get myself impeached, by the way. I think -- I think if I was going to get myself impeached, the max I would pay is $10,000.

CAMEROTA: You know a good bargain, I must say, I must say that. And guess what, he's not going to pay Rudy Giuliani? I mean, we could have told Rudy Giuliani that a couple years ago.

AVLON: Yeah. Loyalty is a one-way street for Donald Trump. He only cares about himself. That is the flow through of his presidency in addition to lying. And so, you know, look, Rudy Giuliani is in a distinct category in that he's had a direct role in two impeachments of a president. That's, you know, quite the legal counsel.

But the approving expenses of a person who has, you know, debased himself and destroyed his reputation and your defense is so typical because Donald Trump basically chooses loyalty as one White House staffer recently based on whether you're willing to light himself on fire for you -- for him.

[05:15:01] And ultimately everyone's burned. Anyone who hasn't figured that out by now has the additional burden of a kind of stupidity that you can't cure.

BERMAN: I will say, if you want to get yourself impeached, there's no one better to go to than Rudy Giuliani.

CAMEROTA: That should be on his business card for all impeachments.

BERMAN: I'll get you impeached fast, fast, and I know my cousin Vinny.

All right. Rachael, thank you very much for being with us.

John, stick around, because something else is happening overnight which is really important here which is we are being told that more pardons could come as soon as today, and this matters. Why? Because, again, it's between impeachment and a Senate trial.

Who will the president pardon? How will it be received? How will this press constitutional limits? Because, man, you know it will.

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CAMEROTA: This morning, we have new details about how President Trump is responding to his historic second impeachment.

[05:20:03]

A source tells CNN that Trump is blaming Rudy Giuliani and telling people not to pay his legal fees. Shocker.

A White House advisor says the president could issue another round of pardons as early as today.

Back with us, John Avlon. Also joining us, CNN "EARLY START" anchor, Laura Jarrett. She covered the Justice Department for years.

Laura, I can't believe we're still debating this. Of course, he's going to issue more pardons. Of course, he's going to try to pardon himself. Anybody who's like, that would be unwise, but President Trump doesn't listen to that kind of conventional wisdom. I mean, I can't actually believe it's taken him this long.

LAURA JARRETT, CNN ANCHOR, CNN'S "EARLY START": I can remember having this argument with you about Roger Stone and boy was I wrong. He didn't do it on the exact day that you predicted but he did eventually do it and he may, indeed, try to pardon himself.

But I can guarantee you, no court in this country will go for it. No man is supposed to be a judge in his own case. And if this is tested, any court will agree with me on this. I guarantee you, Alisyn.

Now, we also shouldn't let it be a distraction. If he does this, it doesn't distract or take away from the fact that we have just seen history. He has been impeached for the second time, but for this time for inciting a deadly riot. Five people, at least five people died. We cannot let this become a distraction.

BERMAN: Yeah, I don't think it will pass legal muster at all and it's also just politically idiotic, again, which doesn't preclude it from happening, may in fact guarantee it to happen, John Avlon. But to pardon yourself after you've been impeached, and before a Senate trial, man, oh, man, does that give incentives to Republicans who might be on the fence?

AVLON: It does. So, a couple of things here. I mean, you know, this is unfortunately still a matter of some constitutional debate tittles and some conservatives believe the president's power to pardon is unlimited.

As Laura pointed out, though, there's not only a 1974 OLC opinion that says you can't pardon your self, but logic and the foundations of law would suggest you can.

And if this is challenged and brought to the court, then it could represent a real constraint of the president's pardoning power.

There's a second point and I nerd out on the Founding Fathers and the Constitutional Convention here. James Madison specifically said that a president would not have -- would have his pardoning power suspended in the interregnum between an impeachment and Senate conviction if it related to the items for which she is impeached. Now, this has never been also impeached or figured out in law, but this was a clear intent by Madison during the constitutional convention and that could be the subject for challenges of pardons that he tries to put forward in addition to the idiotic idea or absurd idea I would suggest of self pardon.

CAMEROTA: I don't know what you mean that you're a geek when you use words like interregnum. I don't know. I don't even know why you --

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: You had a bad case of that the other day but you got a shot and it cleared it right up.

AVLON: Yeah, exactly. There's -- you can put ointment on that.

BERMAN: Yeah.

CAMEROTA: Ointment?

Laura, I'm going to bring this back onto the rails.

JARRETT: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: In terms of the defense or this upcoming Senate trial, if President Trump were called and testified in his own behalf and what his defense would be, it will be a challenge, I would predict, you tell me, because here's the evidence of how he and his allies incited the deadly attacks.

So let's remind people (ph). (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MO BROOKS (R-AL): Today is the day American patriots start taking down names and kicking ass.

RUDY GIULIANI, TRUMP ATTORNEY: It's where right, a lot of them will go to jail. So let's have trial by combat!

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You'll never take back our country with weakness. We fight. We fight like hell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Interestingly, Laura, yesterday, Congressman Jim Jordan during the impeachment process said that what he heard the president say was, quote, they impeach the president of the United States to say peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. That's some selective listening right there.

JARRETT: I can't even count the number of times that the president said the words fight in that speech. It's not -- again, just that speech, right? You have to look at the whole context of what he's been saying for weeks now and what he said after that rally.

But, really, who is going to defend him? Everybody has abandoned him. He now reportedly doesn't want to pay Giuliani for his legal bills, the $20,000 a day that he's been racking up which I find fascinating, because if you think back to the early days of the Mueller investigation, the president of the United States could not recruit top white collar lawyers to defend him. Why? In part because the firms were afraid that he would not pay his legal bills.

And now we find ourselves in that precise situation. It's just stunning. He's the president. He should be able to get the best defense possible in America and yet everybody is running away from him.

[05:25:01]

Jay Sekulow, the Raskins, everyone who defended him the first time around is nowhere to be found.

BERMAN: Alan Dershowitz may be there for the defense. He was there last time.

AVLON: Yeah, I wonder why.

BERMAN: We don't have a real sense of who maybe able to stand up for him, and maybe even the process of having a former president launch a defense is, you know, we just don't know how it's going to work.

The subject of Jim Jordan, one might suggest he has a history of selective seeing and hearing of certain things going on around him. I'll just leave that out there.

John Avlon, Laura Jarrett, thanks so much for being with us this morning.

JARRETT: Thanks, guys.

CAMEROTA: Was the deadly insurrection at the U.S. Capitol planned? What we're learning that investigators have now uncovered, next.

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