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Preparations Underway for Senate Trial after Historic Trump Impeachment; Trump Urges No More Violence, Doesn't Mention Impeachment or Biden; Source: Trump Tells Staff Not to Pay Giuliani; More Pardons from Trump Expected Today. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired January 14, 2021 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): In a bipartisan way, the House demonstrated that no one is above the law.

[05:59:18]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: He feels betrayed by the fact that he has been impeached a second time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unless we make sure to send a resounding message that this is not acceptable, then we risk just papering over some of these divisions, and the wounds will never truly heal.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): The president bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack. He should have immediately denounced the mob.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The president is in self-pity mode. He is upset that no one is defending him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thousands of armed troops keep guard both outside and inside the Capitol.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a major security threat, and we are working to mitigate those threats.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. It is Thursday, January 14, 6 a.m. here in New York. And this morning, preparations are underway for the Senate trial of Donald Trump, the twice-impeached, soon-to-be former president of the United States.

But that trial will only begin after Trump leaves office next week. House managers tell CNN they have not yet decided whether to seek witnesses during that trial and subpoena documents.

Overnight, President-elect Joe Biden urged lawmakers not to let whatever this trial is going to look like get in the way of fighting the pandemic and resurrecting the economy.

Ten House Republicans voted in favor yesterday of Trump's impeachment. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says he has not ruled out voting to convict Donald Trump during that Senate trial upcoming.

As for the president himself, naturally, he's casting about for who to blame. At the moment, Rudy Giuliani, his longtime attorney and I guess P.R. guy, is becoming the fall guy. Spoiler alert: our reporting is that Trump does not want to pay him.

President Trump is still debating who to dole out more pardons to.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Really, the major questions this morning are, what happens in the Senate now? What does Donald Trump do now? What does Joe Biden do now? And what do we know about the scope, depth, and planning of the attack and the safety of the inauguration next week?

On that last point, developing this morning, a new intelligence poll warns that domestic extremists are likely more emboldened now. Online chatter is, quote, "off the charts."

The federal law enforcement official tells CNN that the evidence uncovered so far suggests that the siege at the Capitol was planned. We have new -- brand-new video of all this to show you.

The FBI says it has received tens of thousands of tips, including some that appear to show members of Congress with individuals who later showed up at the insurrection.

We're going to start with CNN's Sunlen Serfaty, live on Capitol Hill, where sometime soon, there will be a Senate trial of Donald Trump, but at that point, we will no longer call him president, Sunlen.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right, John. And Capitol Hill is essentially now gearing up for this next step in this whole process, the Senate trial of President Trump. This after that historic day up here on Capitol Hill yesterday. The House making President Trump the first president to be impeached twice.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SERFATY (voice-over): Inside the U.S. Capitol, now protected by armed National Guard troops --

PELOSI: The ayes are 232. The nays are 197.

SERFATY: -- the House voting to impeach President Trump for the second time, exactly one week after a pro-Trump mob stormed the building in a deadly riot.

PELOSI: He must go. He is a clear and present danger to the nation that we all love.

SERFATY: House Democrats explaining why they believe Trump should be charged with incitement of insurrection.

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Donald Trump is a living, breathing impeachable offense.

REP. JOAQUIN CASTRO (D-TX): If inciting a deadly insurrection is not enough to get a president impeached, then what is?

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Every one of us in this room right now could have died.

SERFATY: And in a rare bipartisan move, ten House Republicans joining them.

REP. JAIME HERRERA BEUTLER (R-WA): My vote to impeach our sitting president is not a fear-based decision. I am not choosing a side. I'm choosing truth.

REP. DAN NEWHOUSE (R-WA): Last week, there was a domestic threat at the door of the Capitol, and he did nothing to stop it. That is why, with a heavy heart and clear resolve, I will vote "yes" on these articles of impeachment.

SERFATY: House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy voting against impeachment but saying this about the president's role in the riot.

MCCARTHY: The president bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding.

SERFATY: Trump's fate is now in the hands of the Senate, and Majority Leader Mitch McConnell made clear his trial will not start until after President-elect Joe Biden begins his term.

McConnell, who has said he thinks impeachment will separate Trump from the GOP, has told Republican colleagues he's undecided on a conviction.

The president is still taking no responsibility for the attacks on the U.S. Capitol and did not mention impeachment in a video statement posted by the White House. But Capitol Hill Democrats think Trump should be held accountable.

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): Guilty intent and his actions can be presented very quickly to the United States Senate. I hope Republicans will join in convicting him.

SERFATY: Biden stressing it's crucial for Congress to multitask in the weeks ahead, writing in a statement, quote, "I hope that the Senate leadership will find a way to deal with their constitutional responsibilities on impeachment while also working on the other urgent business of this nation."

REP. TED LIEU (D-CA): We can both do the trial as well as get the work of the nation done simultaneously.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SERFATY: And the focus now shifts, of course, to the Senate impeachment trial. And the big question, of course, is where Mitch McConnell stands. Does he support conviction or not? And a source telling CNN, John, that McConnell is keenly aware of this moment in history and, of course, this moment for the Republican Party.

[06:05:10]

BERMAN: All right, indeed. Sunlen, please keep us posted.

So this morning, "The New York Times" is reporting the president is still telling people he won the election. In the video he released overnight, the one his aides had to cajole him to release, he did not admit defeat, but he did ask his supporters to stay peaceful.

CNN's Joe Johns live at the White House with how this came to pass and what we can expect today, Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John.

A second impeachment on the books. The president buttons it up by essentially telling his supporters in a video to stop the violence, but there's just so much the president did not say.

He did not talk about all the lies he told to rile up his supporters, which led to the violence up on Capitol Hill. He didn't talk about losing the election, didn't talk about Joe Biden, didn't talk about the transfer of power that's expected next week.

One source telling CNN that the president, essentially, is in self- pity mode right now, blaming others for the situation he's put himself in. This is essentially, in many ways, the state of denial we've seen from the president since he lost the election.

One adviser telling CNN that, "In the end of it all, it came crashing down, because he could never tell the truth. This will be the story you tell your kids when you lecture them about telling the truth."

We're also told the president has told people to stop paying Rudy Giuliani his legal fees. That's potentially unfortunate, because there's some suggestion Rudy Giuliani will be involved in the president's trial for the impeachment up on Capitol Hill.

It's not clear if the president is entirely serious about that, but what is clear is that the president blames Giuliani, as well as others, for not defending him enough.

We're also told that the latest batch of pardons from the president could come down as early as today, even though people have asserted to the president, it's not a good idea for him to pardon himself or members of his family. The indication is, the president would like to exercise his power to the extent possible, now that we're down toward the end.

Back to you.

CAMEROTA: Isn't Rudy Giuliani kind of exhibit "A" in whatever trial happens anywhere? He's the person who encouraged trial by combat. Seems like he will be part of whatever trial is coming up.

Joe, thank you very much, for all of that.

Joining us now, CNN political analysts David Gregory and Rachael Bade. Rachael is a reporter for "Politico."

And David, that's just part of -- I'm having a hard time, I guess, imagining what's next. The Senate trial --

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- for a former president. How -- how long would this last? Who would the witnesses be? There's -- there's skads of evidence, obviously, of people like Rudy Giuliani --

GREGORY: Right.

CAMEROTA: -- and President Trump inciting people to violence. But as you, I think, have pointed out last night, I heard, that Mitch McConnell is not doing Joe Biden any favors by kicking the can down the road. Joe Biden needs to be laser-focused on the pandemic and getting us out of that. And now a Senate trial, too?

GREGORY: I just think it's really hard to maintain the momentum for this. In this world we're living in, especially in Trump world, these news cycles move so quickly, and attention changes so quickly. To move into a Biden administration and to be pursuing a trial seems hard.

I mean, I think you said it. You know, for Joe Biden, there is still a pandemic that's killing people all over the world. He's got to address that. He's got to address the economy. He wants to lower the political temperature. The idea of looking backward without full bipartisan support.

Look, I think the vote was extremely significant yesterday, not just because it made history, but because there were ten Republicans. Because Republicans did not whip up the vote to oppose impeachment. It was -- it was a strong statement, even if some -- most Republicans didn't think impeachment was the right answer.

But if the goal to move forward comes down to -- and this is what may fortify Democrats. If it comes down to the potential to convict and then add onto that the idea of barring Trump from ever pursuing office again, Democrats may want to go for it. Republicans, some of them, at least, may want to go for it. That is what Mitch McConnell has been suggesting.

But I just think, combination of a new president, the fact that you don't have the Republicans to convict. It seems difficult to move forward.

BERMAN: They don't have a choice. I mean, at this point, once you've impeached and you send the articles over to the Senate, there has to be a trial. So it's going to happen. The trial will happen.

[06:10:09] The question is, how, Rachael? What are we going to see? What's your reporting on that?

RACHAEL BADE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, they could vote to dismiss right away. I mean, if -- there was some talk last weekend privately amongst some moderate Republicans and Democrats about appealing to President-elect Joe Biden to call for unity and put this aside after the impeachment vote. Now, I -- I'm skeptical that will happen, because, again, there is a desire for accountability.

But I do think what this speaks to is this sort of debate happening. And as, you know, Democrats are taking power in the Senate, how do they balance this need for accountability with this desire, frankly, to put Trump in the rearview mirror?

I mean, a Senate trial can last from -- I mean, in history, we've seen it last from anywhere between 21 days and 83 days. And that's a long time with Biden wanting to do another COVID relief bill. He wants to get his cabinet confirmed.

The reality is, it's very hard to, quote, "bifurcate" an impeachment trial while also doing the work of, you know, getting a new administration up and running. That's something that Joe Biden has floated.

But technically, we'll have to see if they can really do that. Because, you know, as you remember, impeachment trials suck up 24/7, the news and the energy; and, you know, obviously, Biden wants to get his people in place.

But -- but, again, there's this opportunity right now. If they can convict and get 67 Republicans and Democrats, they can put Trump away for good and keep him from ever running for office again. And I think that's what McConnell was specifically mentioning, when he talks about privately wanting to use this to, potentially, you know, get rid of Trump and move on with the Republican Party to a next phase.

CAMEROTA: And David, part of the problem is it was so bad what happened on Wednesday, what we all witnessed: the violence, the heinous acts of violence. Officer Brian Sicknick is dead. Five Americans are dead.

And so it feels -- I mean, look at this! I mean, just -- it was just so astounding yesterday, David, to hear people like Congressman Jim Jordan say, Where's the evidence? I don't know, maybe it's all the Trump flags, the Trump hats, the hand-to-hand combat that we're watching here.

I mean, it looks like scenes out of the Civil War, frankly. There was a Confederate flag in the background a second ago. It -- it's insane what happened on Wednesday. And so, there -- there is a feeling of, OK, so a second impeachment, is that enough for what brought all of this on?

GREGORY: Yes, it's a good question. And I think a lot of people agree with that. And it's a tricky time to seek that ultimate accountability.

You know, this is why -- two things that I think are important. Is the president going to try to pardon himself? Because there's no question he'll face legal jeopardy. And I think that's the only thing that's gotten him moving, making these other videos, trying to act like an adult, way too late to try to quell the violence.

The other piece of it is what happens between now and the inauguration? The Capitol is on a war footing. Statehouses are on a war footing. Our intelligence apparatus, FBI, police chiefs around the country are preparing for more violence. It's a very tense time.

My hope is that that show of force, that awareness, the hardening of all of these targets means that there will not be an incident, but we don't know and we have to be prepared for the worst. I think that will determine what happens next, as well.

But this is, it's just, it's tricky. This -- we've never been in this situation before, where you're trying to get some accountability. The only -- the bright spot about yesterday, if I can add another one, is that I think that this -- this Jim Jordan chorus of, Hey, you know, what Democrats are doing is illegitimate, because they've always wanted to go after the president, I don't think that holds water for most people.

BERMAN: Right. I mean, if that's the bright side, yes. If it doesn't hold water, that is a bright side.

GREGORY: I'm looking for a little bit of bright side here.

BERMAN: The fact -- the fact that there were adult human beings making that argument on the floor of the House, not so bright in some ways. Literally and figuratively.

GREGORY: Not so bright. I'm just saying -- right. But I'm just saying I feel like that was more muted than it was, certainly, the last time.

BERMAN: Rachael, there are some concrete decisions that need to be made in this trial if they don't vote to dismiss. No. 1, will Chuck Schumer, who will be running the Senate, and do the House managers want to call witnesses? What types of witnesses do you expect to see? It could people that suffered during the insurrection. Or it could be Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger. I said it right.

CAMEROTA: Nailed it!

BERMAN: I've been preparing for days to say that out loud. What's the plus/minus? You know, what's the advantage of these types of witnesses?

BADE: You know, the other thing about a Senate trial, not just to -- to convict Trump and potentially keep him from running for office, but there are millions of Americans who believe this lie that President Trump has told that he won the election and that the election was stolen.

[06:15:12]

If they're going to have a trial, I think Democrats and, you know, Republicans who want to get Trump in the rearview mirror, if they're going to do this, they really do need to do it. Right? I mean, they need to call on witnesses. They've got to have evidence. Tell the story. The full story.

Because there are Americans, again, who voted for the president and who still believe these lies. And so there is an opportunity here, if they end up doing a trial, to really lay everything out and tell the story in, perhaps, a bipartisan way.

I mean, a lot of the managers that Pelosi has selected are people who have been calling for impeachment for a long time. It will be interesting to see if they call Republican witnesses, as you just said, who -- Republicans who, you know, have something to offer, whether they were being pressured by Trump to try to swing the election toward him, or, you know, Republicans who were sitting in the chamber and seeing their lives threatened.

Those are the types of witnesses that can potentially be moving for this large group of Trump supporters, who are still out there and believe these lies.

And so beyond voting to, you know, convict and can they really get that conviction to keep Trump from office ever again? There is something else here. And that is sort of changing the hearts and minds of this Trump following or, you know, these Trump supporters or people who don't know what to believe.

And so I think, you know, these are questions I don't know the answer to. Who are they going to bring in on witnesses? Are they going to do an extended trial? But these are things they're going to have to weigh.

Because again, like we've talked about before, there is a desire to move on, too. And there are arguments on all these, you know, different sides. It will be sort of interesting to see what Biden and Chuck Schumer and Pelosi decide.

CAMEROTA: Yes. And I don't want to be Debbie Downer --

GREGORY: Can I just suggest one area --

CAMEROTA: Hold on. Let me just give you the comment, quickly on this.

GREGORY: Yes, yes.

CAMEROTA: That the president's chosen information networks yesterday were not providing much coverage of the impeachment. And so I'm not sure that the people who need to hear the truth, as you were saying, Rachael, will hear it during a Senate trial, because I'm not even sure they will provide coverage.

David, I'm sorry, we're out of time. Hold that thought, and we will talk to you as soon as possible. Thank you. BERMAN: We're going to talk to him right after the break. David's right back right after the break. So we don't have to wait that long.

CAMEROTA: Then that's even sooner than I thought, David. So that -- that's fantastic. OK.

Another round of pardons could be announced as soon as today, as President Trump tries to distract from that his second impeachment. We have CNN's brand-new reporting to share with you next.

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[06:21:29]

BERMAN: New this morning, multiple sources tell CNN that Donald Trump could issue another round of pardons, a new round of pardons, as early as today. What does this all mean?

Back with us, as promised, David Gregory. Also with us, CNN legal analyst Elie Honig. He's a former federal prosecutor.

Elie, part of the reason for these pardons, we're told, is that Donald Trump just wants a shiny object. He's been impeached twice. He wants people to focus on something else.

The other part of this, what we're all curious about over the next five days, will he pardon himself? Will he pardon his son? Will he pardon Rudy Giuliani? All people implicated and who could face serious legal prosecution for inciting the mob that invaded the Capitol. Your take?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, John, so first of all, with respect to the distraction point, let's just all agree not to be distracted if he issues a bunch of really offensive pardons. I mean, we need to talk about them. It's important. But the real thing that really matters here is what went down at the Capitol and the consequences of that.

Now, with respect to these pardons themselves, the kind of pardons you just laid out, they will backfire in a couple of ways.

First of all, there is going to be a Senate impeachment trial, in all likelihood, very soon. If the president abuses his power by -- through an abuse of the pardon power, that very much could color the way that the senators look at the president, and it could influence some of the verdicts.

Second of all, it will motivate state prosecutors, who are not covered by a pardon, to dig in and investigate.

And third of all, back when I worked at the Justice Department, we used to say, Don't pull the lion's tail. Don't give the Justice Department any reason to come after you. Right? And the Justice Department is already on record that a self-pardon, in their opinion, is not valid and binding. So I don't think you want to go down that road. I think that will backfire. CAMEROTA: But Elie, one more question. If President Trump pardons himself for inciting the violence at the Capitol today, and then there's a Senate trial and he's convicted, does the pardon negate that conviction?

HONIG: No, it does not negate the impeachment. So a president cannot unimpeach himself. He cannot unimpeach anybody else.

CAMEROTA: But can't he un-convict himself?

HONIG: Well, what he can do is prevent himself. If a self-pardon is valid and constitutional, which we don't know, because it's never gone to the courts. But if the president says, I pardon myself for anything relating to the Capitol riot, then either DOJ charges him, in which case it will go up through the courts, probably to the Supreme Court. They'll tell us whether a self-pardon is valid.

Or if DOJ does nothing about it, then the pardon just stands. But that's what I mean about don't pull the lion's tail. Don't give DOJ a reason to challenge your self-pardon.

BERMAN: And again, you can't be -- you can't pardon a Senate conviction. A Senate conviction is beyond the power of any pardon completely.

David, just first of all, there was something you wanted to say before the break. Just another point that you brought up was the president's continued claim that he won the election, which is why I think it's so important to point out "The New York Times" reporting from this morning, that as recently as Tuesday, he was telling people, the president, I won. I won the election.

If he continues to say that, to what extent does that undercut whatever other sounds he's making out of his mouth about the peaceful transfer of power?

GREGORY: Well, it undercuts everything, and it's a really important point to bring up this morning. Because I think that's the overriding issue in the impeachment drive.

We cannot be a mature, functioning democracy if we have political leaders at the highest level, at the presidential level, who seek to attack and invalidate our elections. It just doesn't work.

Every four years, one party or the other could launch this assault, metaphorically, against our election and then lead to what this was, which was an attack by one branch of government on another. That was a bloody attack.

[06:25:14]

That's not what democracy is about, and it's why the Liz Cheneys are so important. This statement of conscience, saying, this is bigger than Trump. We cannot abide by this.

The one question I was going to raise about a potential impeachment trial that may be significant is, to what extent is Donald Trump as president culpable for the incitement? And what was planned in advance?

I think learning more about what is -- what was put in motion, who was responsible for that, is very important, from a law enforcement perspective, to understand the section of violent people that we have in the country who want to bring that violence to state capitals or to any level of government.

CAMEROTA: And in fact, Elie, that's what the DOJ said in their long- awaited press conference. They said that -- that, basically, when we learn more, when we see what they know about what was going on in there, that we will be shocked, I think, is the word that they used.

And yet, yesterday, you heard people like Congressman Jim Jordan and others saying, I don't see any evidence. I mean, let me just play for you, because it was so -- the audacity of what they tried to claim. The same people who, of course, were hiding in the Capitol, you know, under chairs for their lives. So here was yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): They impeach the president of the United States for saying peacefully and patriotically, make your voices heard.

REP. JODEY ARRINGTON (R-TX): The president didn't incite a riot. The president didn't lead an insurrection. And there are no high crimes and misdemeanors requisite of an impeachment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: You know, Congressman Arrington, just because you say so doesn't make it true. So somehow, he missed the evidence. And just to remind people, here's a little taste of the evidence of the incitement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today is the day American patriots start taking down names and kicking ass!

RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: If we're right, a lot of them will go to jail. So let's have trial by combat!

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You'll never take back our country with weakness. We fight. We fight like hell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Are they going to have any problem presenting evidence at a Senate trial?

HONIG: Alisyn, this case is a prosecutor or an impeachment manager's dream. Because the evidence is as clear as the clips we just saw. The evidence is the president's tweets. The evidence is the videotapes of the -- of the statements made to the crowd. The evidence is the videotapes of what's in the Capitol.

And I think, if I'm in charge of putting this impeachment on, I -- we used to say and other old prosecutor saying, thin to win. Keep your case clear, concise, and credible. Get it in, get it done. I don't know that the American public has an appetite for another month-long trial. I could try this thing in a week. I think that's what they should be aiming for int the Senate.

BERMAN: Jenny Craig, David Gregory, our thanks to both of you. Appreciate you both being with us this morning.

On the subject of new evidence, new evidence uncovered by federal investigators reveals that the attack on the U.S. Capitol was planned. We've got this new information for you, next.

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