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President Trump Releases Video Condemning Violence; President Trump Attempting to Put Together Legal Team for Impeachment Trial; National Guard Provides Large Security Force in Washington D.C. Ahead of Inauguration Day for President-Elect Joe Biden; Senate Impeachment Trial to Begin After Biden Inauguration. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired January 14, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Developing this morning, a new intelligence bulletin warns that domestic extremists are likely more emboldened now after the insurrection last week. Online chatter is, quote, off the charts. A federal law enforcement official tells CNN the evidence uncovered so far suggests the siege on the capitol was, quote, planned. This brand-new video of all of this, we'll show you that in a minute. The FBI says it has received tens of thousands of tips, including some that appear to show members of Congress with individuals who later showed up at the insurrection.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us now, we have CNN White House correspondents John Harwood and Kaitlan Collins. Great to see both of you. Kaitlan, last night the president put out a video condemning the violence. It took a week. And he didn't take any responsibility for inciting it. And the reporting is that he had to be pressured from inside by Jared Kushner, among others, that it was basically an intervention to force him to do this. What's your reporting on what's going on inside?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the president was encouraged to do this by advisers who had watched these Republicans all day on Capitol Hill, people who were typically such close allies of the president, people like Kevin McCarthy, have his favorite can-do ready. But you saw McCarthy came out. He said that the president did bear responsibility for what happened the Wednesday before when, of course, that pro-Trump went up to Capitol Hill.

And so we're told that the president was actually furious about what Kevin McCarthy said. He was already upset with him because he had left open that idea of censuring the president earlier in the week when discussing this possible impeachment with other Republicans. And so the president has not taken any responsibility privately. He certainly has not done so publicly for the role that he played in that. He did not in that video last night, but I think the video had an audience of one. It's Mitch McConnell, because they obviously want to stave off this impeachment trial that's coming and a possible conviction for the president given that McConnell took that remarkable step of not saying, or not ruling out that he would vote to convict the president of his own party. BERMAN: I'm going to ask John about a Senate impeachment defense in

just a second, but first, Kaitlan, your reporting on the president's relationship with his disgraced impeachment lawyer, Rudy Giuliani. By impeachment lawyer, I mean the lawyer who keeps getting him impeached. What's his relationship with Giuliani?

COLLINS: The president is certainly blaming him for that this morning. He has been telling aides to stop paying Rudy Giuliani's legal fees. It's not even really clear how much money Rudy Giuliani makes from the president, and aides weren't sure if the president was serious, but that's how angry the president is. He's kind of in this state where he's lashing out at everyone around him. Rudy Giuliani is now one of those people, given what's been going on, it's not clear the role that Rudy is going to play in the president's impeachment trial. He was expected to take part in it. So that remains to be seen.

And I do want to note something else that my colleague Kevin Liptak just noted, is John Eastman is this attorney. You remember him, he was the one who pushed that birther conspiracy about Kamala Harris and whether or not she could be vice president. He joined the president's legal team in December. He's been helping with these false claims about the election and, of course, he was let go from a university where he was teaching because, given everything that's been going on, he's agreed to retire immediately. We just found out that he may be an attorney representing the president when it comes to that impeachment trial, given the president is still trying to cobble together some kind of legal team and some kind of legal strategy ahead of that trial.

BERMAN: So John, what are you looking for in terms of -- given that. Given that maybe Giuliani is on the outs, Eastman is in the ins. What are you looking for in terms of the defense for who will then be former president Donald Trump?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: John, I think they've already signaled, both people like Alan Dershowitz and the president through his statements have signaled what the defense will be. One will be a constitutional one. You can't, Senate of the United States, hold a trial once I'm out of office. So they're going to try to invalidate the proceeding that way.

Secondly, the president, if the trial presumably goes forward, the president will argue, well, of course I didn't mean that they were going to go and try to kill people at the capitol or bust down the capitol. I said in my statement we're going to peacefully march down there. I didn't call for them to be violent. So he's going to try to absolve himself in that way.

The question is, how credible that's going to be given the other words that the president said. His talk about strength and Don Jr.'s talk about we're coming for you, and Mo Brooks, who was asked to give his remarks at that rally on January 6th, Mo Brooks saying we're going to take names and kick ass. All of that is extremely problematic for the president.

I wanted to add one thing about the statement that you were discussing with Kaitlan that Jared Kushner among others helped convinced him to make. It's not only President Trump attempting to stave off consequences in an impeachment trial in the Senate.

[08:05:00]

It's also people like Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump are staring down, what is the rest of their lives going to be like? We're seeing corporate America sprint away from Donald Trump, from people associated with Donald Trump. Kaitlan mentioned John Eastman at Chapman University. So everyone around Trump who has been involved in the lies about the election, linked to this insurrection, is going to see consequences. And that is going to affect the Trump organization going forward. Their brand is in tatters. Their bankers have left. There are all sorts of consequences that everyone is trying to mitigate the damage of, including people in Donald Trump's family.

CAMEROTA: Man, there was some extreme cherry picking going on yesterday, Kaitlan, in terms of the impeachment trial with what some Republicans said they heard from President Trump at his rally beforehand. They just heard him talk about being peaceful. They didn't hear all of the incitement that the rest of us heard and the rest of us happened to capture on videotape with audio. So here is a portion of what Mo Brooks and Rudy Giuliani said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MO BROOKS (R-AL): Today is the day American patriots start taking down names and kicking ass!

RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: If we're right, a lot of them will go to jail.

(APPLAUSE)

GIULIANI: So let's have trial by combat.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You'll never take back our country with weakness. We fight. We fight like hell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Those were just a few of the moments. There were many more. But that brings me back to Rudy Giuliani in your reporting, Kaitlan. How could he be a lawyer at the Senate trial, even if he was being paid or if President Trump still liked him, when he's the person who said trial by combat? Isn't he a co-defendant on some incitement level?

COLLINS: Not only did he make those remarks shortly before the president took the stage at that rally, he also played an integral role in laying the groundwork for these lies about the election since November. He's been the one going from state to state appearing at these state legislatures, talking about this, making these allegations on television as well. And so I think the president also, obviously, had a role in that. And one other Republican congressman yesterday was saying that there

were already people going to the Hill by the time the president got on stage and was personally instructing them to do so. But also you have to look at what the president did for the two months before that, where every single day he repeated these lies about the election. He talked about how the election was not just being stolen from him but from his supporters as well.

And so I think Rudy Giuliani obviously had a critical role in that. Having Rudy Giuliani go on the Senate floor, I'm not sure would help the president's case given the audience is Senate Republicans. We know how often they've tried to blame Rudy Giuliani and criticize Rudy Giuliani for the last several months when really that's a veiled criticism of the president. It's just easier to use Rudy Giuliani as that outlet. So I'm not sure he is an attorney who would be the best person to represent the president.

But we should note that the prominent figures you saw just a year ago when we were in that last impeachment trial for Donald Trump, they are not coming around. They're staying away from this. They're making sure people know that they are not involved in this effort. And so I do think it will be a struggle for the president to put together a legal team that Senate Republicans are going to find as a receptive audience to make those arguments.

BERMAN: So here's something that will make the defense even harder. Andy McCabe last hour talked about what was the central ideology of the insurrection at the capitol, fueled by the inspirational leader, Donald Trump, and that's the big lie, that he says he won the election. And "The New York Times" overnight, Maggie Haberman reporting that as recently as, it was Tuesday on Air Force One flying to Texas and back, Trump was walking around the plane telling people, I won, I won. "On Air Force One on Tuesday during a trip to the southern border at Alamo, Texas, the president repeatedly said of the election to people traveling with him, "I won."

That's a problem, John. Also, a problem for him over the next several days is the CNN reporting that more pardons are very likely on the way. New pardons are very likely on the way. Whether or not -- including possibly himself. The legal ramifications of that there's time to talk about, but I think there are political implications as well in terms of the Senate trial, because Senate Republicans will watch this very carefully.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. And the fact that the president would go around on Air Force One and say "I won" is an indication of his detachment from reality and his unfitness for office. There isn't any question about the fact that he lost the election. And if actually privately cannot recognize that, that is an indication of how much is wrong with him.

But this president has got an entire array of problems, and how he handles these last few days I think is going to influence, to some degree, how the Senate reacts to him.

[08:10:00]

I thought it was significant that Rob Portman yesterday said he was going to take into account in the Senate trial the fact that the trial would have an effect on the unity of the country. To me, that was a signal, if Mitch McConnell sent a signal that he was open to conviction, Rob Portman sent a signal that he's open to acquittal. And I think if someone who occupies Rob Portman's place in that caucus is sending that signal, that's a sign that by the time we get to this trial, after Donald Trump has left office, there may be a desire among Republicans not to take any further action that would inflame their supporters and go on to the business of the Biden administration.

I do think there is also some opening for Joe Biden on the basis of Trump's behavior over the last few days to get some at least initial cooperation from the Republicans in the Senate, not only on nominees but potentially on his steps to deal with the coronavirus pandemic. And I do think we can't obscure one positive bit of news on that pandemic that's been overshadowed by the horrific events of the last few days. That is that the outgoing Trump team and the incoming Biden team are now on the same page on dramatically opening up the vaccine for more first doses, not holding back second doses. I think that vaccination campaign is going to accelerate rapidly over the next couple of weeks, and that will be good news for the country.

BERMAN: John Harwood, Kaitlan Collins, thanks both so much for coming on this morning. A lot of new information there. Appreciate it.

So with the threat of new violence in Washington, that city on high alert, some 20,000 National Guard troops expected to fortify the capitol for the inauguration. CNN's Pete Muntean is live on Capitol Hill. And Pete, as I've been saying, it just looks like the Green Zone in Baghdad behind you.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is such a strange scene here, John. There's this massive wall, blocks away from the capitol, and through it here you can see more members of the National Guard arriving every moment. The threat here is very real, according to the Secret Service. It is now leading the security charge here. It says that it's monitoring chatter online of the potential of more armed protests here in the nation's capital. The Pentagon says it's worried about the potential for improvised explosive devices like those found out the RNC and the DNC. And the head of the Metropolitan Washington, D.C. Police Department says there is a real reason the city is discouraging people from coming here for this inauguration. Here is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ACTING CHIEF ROBERT J. CONTEE III, METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT: As the mayor has encouraged residents, as she has encouraged visitors from around the country, we're not asking people to come to D.C. for this. There's a major security threat, and we are working to mitigate those threats. So again, we are just intently focused on the job that's at hand.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MUNTEAN: The number of members of the Guard here many times larger, here in our nation's capital, than the members of our military deployed overseas. The severity and extent of these threats still not totally clear. It's possible we could learn more from Vice President Mike Pence after he meets with FEMA later today about this inauguration like no other. John?

BERMAN: I've got to say, I continue just to be struck by those images behind you. I can't get used to them, and that's OK. Let's hope this is not the kind of thing we need to see very much in our nation's capital. Thank you so much, Pete, for being there.

So how do you hold an impeachment trial when a president is no longer in office? A former U.S. attorney general joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:17:30]

CAMEROTA: President Trump now the first American president to be impeached twice. The case against him for inciting an attack on Congress heads to the Senate for a trial that will happen after he has left office.

Joining us now is former U.S. attorney general, Alberto Gonzales. He also served as White House counsel in the George W. Bush administration.

Mr. Gonzales, thanks so much for being here.

What is your legal opinion in terms of President Trump heading to a Senate trial for inciting an attack on the U.S. Capitol?

ALBERTO GONZALES, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, obviously, it's historic. It's a remarkable set of circumstances we find ourselves in.

You know, I think some people have expressed concern about the delay in the trial. The truth of the matter is that over the next few weeks, perhaps months, we're going to know a lot more information about what happened. Who was responsible? The kinds of communications and coordination.

And I think that will all be useful information in connection with the trial.

If I may, Alisyn, I'd like to just respond to -- I was watching the broadcast earlier about the question Andy McCabe, about whether or not President Biden some consider a pardon for President Trump.

CAMEROTA: Yeah.

GONZALES: I don't think this country can heal without two things. One, accountability for what happened on January 6th and, two, an acknowledgment by President Trump that there was no fraud, that there was no stolen election. Now, maybe he's not willing to say that he lied about that. But at least an acknowledge that that he was wrong about that.

I think -- I think without that, it's hard for the country to move forward, and I think it's very, very important. If I'm advising President Trump -- I'm sorry, President Biden as to whether or not a pardon is appropriate, I wouldn't -- I couldn't make that recommendation without that acknowledgment by Trump that he either lied or was mistaken about that.

You know, contrition is often a very important consideration in terms of deciding whether or not to grant a pardon. So that would be my response to whether or not President Biden should consider a pardon for President Trump down in the future.

CAMEROTA: That's really interesting, Mr. Attorney General, because we have reporting that President Trump was still, as he was on the plane to Texas for an appearance two nights ago, still telling people, his closest allies, he won.

[08:20:00]

So I don't see the contrition happening.

GONZALES: Well, and for me, it would be a consideration in the kind of recommendation that I would make to the president of the United States as to whether or not a pardon is appropriate.

And, of course, the decision by the president to grant a pardon is obviously a very personal one and there are a number of considerations to take into account. But, you know, the notion that by granting a pardon would do it to unite the country, if President Trump supporters still believed, even after the pardon, that the election was stolen, I'm not sure, you know, how much we achieve with pardon itself.

And so it's something that I -- from my -- from my perspective, and I think I could speak for President Bush, it would be a serious consideration as to whether or not a pardon is appropriate.

You have to remember that Richard Nixon acknowledged the fact that he had done wrongdoing. He resigned from office and so there was contrition there and President Ford felt it appropriate to grant a pardon and help -- he believed it would help, you know, unite the country. Heal the country.

And so, without that contrition, I think that's a very serious consideration. At least it would be, I think, in the Bush administration. And I have to believe it would be likewise with respect to a Biden administration.

CAMEROTA: Mr. Gonzales, what if President Trump pardons himself in the next six days or his children or Rudy Giuliani?

GONZALES: Well, you know, it's funny. I think -- you know, Senator McConnell is very, very wise. Very, very smart. And I think he understands he has limited leverage at this point. And I think he's holding out the possibility that he would support conviction based upon what Donald Trump does going forward during his time in office, including pardons.

And I think a self-pardon, I think would send tremors in the Senate and I believe that this is one of the reasons why Senator McConnell, you know, is playing -- keeping his cards close to his vest. He wants to see the actions the president does going forward.

As many people have said publicly, the great deal of doubt about the effectiveness of a self-pardon, but the truth of the matter, it's not prohibited in the Constitution. The Supreme Court has never ruled on this. So it really is an open question.

If I were advising President Trump, I would advise him not to do so, certainly not with respect to -- not when you are facing the potential of conviction in a Senate trial. And the other thing you have to remember, it may be ineffective. So you create a lot of ill will and really get nothing for it.

The other thing is, as people have said, it could be viewed as an admission of guilt. And, you know, you know, I just think it's -- something that's very dangerous. The pitfalls are -- many pitfalls that are present. If I were advising President Trump, I think I would advise against it.

CAMEROTA: I want to ask you about what we saw from the current acting attorney general, Jeffrey Rosen. It took him a week after the attack on the U.S. Capitol to make a statement. And when he made a statement, it was a videotaped statement that he put out on YouTube in basically the cover of darkness. I think it came out at midnight that CNN obtained it.

Why?

GONZALES: Well, I can't speak to that. I don't know -- I don't know Jeffrey Rosen quite frankly. I don't know his personality. I don't know if there was still concern about not having adequate facts about what happened here, which I find that hard to believe, but that could be a possibility.

It is one of the problems that exist when you have someone, head of an agency that's not Senate confirmed. And this is not a knock on Jeffrey Rosen. I know a lot of people who work with him and say he's very talented, very dedicated public servant.

I, like many others, felt that his conference was -- the news conference itself was somewhat change from the Department of Justice. And the video was somewhat strange as well.

There are a lot of questions right now, and I think people want to see our government officials, the leaders of these important agencies out front, giving as much information as they can, reassuring the American public that this is a priority. We're on top of this. We're going to find out what happened. We're going to hold people accountable. We're going to charge people.

One of the reasons why we're seeing these early charges, one thing that I just want to mention to your viewers, is that it's very, very important for perhaps what might happen on January 20th. It may be a discouragement to people not to engage in violent activities on January 20th if they see that people that did so on January 6th are being held to account in our criminal justice system.

CAMEROTA: Yeah, people like justice. And they like knowing that people will be held accountable for crimes.

Alberto Gonzales, former attorney general, thank you very much. Great to get all of our insight today.

GONZALES: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: What will President Trump's second impeachment trial look like? Well, one of the House impeachment managers has some thoughts on that and joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:28:58]

BERMAN: So what will the Senate impeachment trial of Donald Trump look like?

Joining me now is Democratic Congresswoman Diana DeGette. She's one of the impeachment managers.

Congresswoman, thanks so much for being with us.

What can you tell us right now about what you're planning for?

REP. DIANA DEGETTE (D-CO): Well, so the impeachment managers met just yesterday for the first time. Obviously, we passed the article of impeachment yesterday. And we are starting to plan for the trial over in the Senate. So we're in the very preliminary stages.

I will say, though, all of the impeachment managers are lawyers. Many of us have a long trial background. So we're going -- I mean, this is a situation where the president committed his offense right there on national TV.

So, we're going to be -- we're going to be getting footage. We're going to be telling the story to the senators.

BERMAN: Footage in telling the story. What does that mean in terms of witnesses?

DEGETTE: We haven't worked that out yet. We're talking about, do we need witnesses? What do we need?

BERMAN: You're talking about do you need witnesses. Obviously, you're talking about the speech itself before the attack on the Capitol.

[08:30:00]