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Biden To Impose COVID Travel Restrictions On Non-U.S. Citizens Who Have Been In U.K, Europe, Brazil And South Africa; U.S. Surpasses 25 Million COVID-19 Cases; Dr. Birx: I Saw Trump Presenting Graphs I Never Made; Dr. Fauci Describes Fraught Year As An Adviser To Trump; Fate Of $1.9 Trillion Relief Bill May Rest With Senate Republicans; Arizona GOP Censures Three Leading Names In Republican Party; Experts Express Concern About Growing Number Of Potentially Violent Extremists. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired January 24, 2021 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM this Sunday.

And we begin with the latest moves from the Biden administration. Tomorrow, COVID travel restrictions are being reinstated on non-U.S. citizens, specifically those who have been to Brazil, Ireland, the U.K. and much of Europe. And it also extends to travelers who have recently been to South Africa. For more on this, let's bring in CNN White House Correspondent Arlette Saenz.

So, Arlette, this is yet another move by Biden to undo a Trump move.

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it is, Pamela. And what you see President Biden and his team trying to do is just take another step to try to curb the spread of this virus. And tomorrow, the president is expected to re-impose those restrictions on most non- U.S. citizens who are coming from visits to Brazil, the United Kingdom, Ireland, many European countries, and they are also extending these restrictions to those who have recently traveled to South Africa.

Now, this will come just one week after President Trump lifted those restrictions effective January 26th. But Biden's team immediately, when President Trump had announced that, they said that that would not stand. So while this isn't necessarily a surprise, it is just another example of what the Biden administration is trying to do to curb the spread of this virus.

Now, another issue that is of top of mind for the Biden administration is their plans for vaccinations across the country. And today, you saw administration officials fan out across the Sunday shows, trying to explain what their plan will be. And you heard from Dr. Anthony Fauci who said that that goal of having 100 million shots in Americans' arms within the first 100 days is a floor, not a ceiling. Take a listen to a bit more of a clarification that Dr. Fauci tried to offer earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER ON CORONAVIRUS TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: Let me clarify that because there was a little bit of a misunderstanding. What we're talking about is 100 million shots in individuals. So shots, in other words, when you get down to, let's say, a certain part of the 100 days, at the end of 100 days, you're going to have some people who will have gotten both shots and some will still be on their first shots. What the president is saying, 100 million shots in the arms of people within 100 days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: Now, one thing we have not heard from the Biden administration is a specific timeline for when the vast majority of Americans will be able to get those shots. That is something -- questions that will continue to be asked in the coming weeks. But one thing that President Biden and his team has tried to stress is that this is going to take some time. It will not happen with the flip of a switch, but they are trying to make it clear that they are aggressively pushing to try to get those vaccinations out to Americans.

BROWN: And, Arlette, President Biden also dispatched his top economic official to try to build support for his $1.9 trillion relief plan. What can you tell us about that?

SAENZ: Well, Pamela, what the Biden team is trying to do here is try to get some bipartisan sign-on to that COVID relief package that President Biden has said is among his top legislative priorities in these opening days of his administration. And his top economic adviser, Brian Deese, had a call today with a bipartisan of about 16 senators, eight Republicans and eight Democrats, where they talked about that COVID relief package.

And sources up on the Hill who were on that call have said there was a productive meeting where they talked about some of the details relating to that package. But also these lawmakers wanted to see more specifics about who will be benefiting from this and who will be essentially receiving some of the benefits from this package.

[18:05:01]

Now, one thing that they were also pushing for was ensuring that stimulus checks go to those who need it most, and there was also a big priority placed on money for vaccine distribution. And what White House officials made clear on that call that lasted a little over an hour, they made clear that they still want this to be done in one big package.

They don't want it to be broken up into pieces, which raises the question of whether Democrats might pursue something called budget reconciliation to pass this by a simple majority. But what Biden and his team have really made clear is that they are hoping they can get bipartisan support for this big deal.

BROWN: All right. Arlette Saenz, thank you so much for that.

And in just a few minutes, I'm going to talk to Jared Bernstein, he's a member of President Biden's council of the economic advisers, and I'm going to ask him how you convince lawmakers to support a new stimulus package. So we'll talk about that a little bit later.

And the process for Donald Trump's historic second impeachment trial begins on Monday. Our CNN Senior Washington Correspondent Joe Johns is at the Capitol with the very latest.

So, Joe, it will still be two weeks before the trial starts. So, what can we expect to see in the coming days?

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, you know, this used to be an arcane custom until Donald Trump got impeached twice. And what we do know is that in all likelihood, there is going to be an exchange of legal documents of the type that you would see in the run-up to a trial after we have the ceremony tomorrow when the impeachment managers deliver the article of impeachment to the United States Senate and present that article to the senators.

Next, there will be summons to the former president, then that will be followed by an answer by the president, presumably written by Butch Bowers, who is his attorney down in South Carolina or his team. And after that, as we get closer to the actual beginning of the trial in substance, which will occur on February 9th, we'll see a pretrial brief from the impeachment managers.

Now, there has been some speculation that this trial is going to go a lot faster than the last trial involving Donald Trump. However, nobody knows for sure simply because it's just not clear where Republicans stand. This is a 50/50 Senate, so 17 Republicans would have to vote to convict if all the Democrats voted to convict. And the Republicans seem to be just about all over the place. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): I think the trial is Stupid. I think it's counterproductive. We already have a flaming fire in this country and it's like taking a bunch of gasoline and pouring it on top of the fire.

SEN. MIKE ROUNDS (R-SD): I think it's a moot point because I think right now Donald Trump is no longer the president. He is a former president. Constitution, and I think -- and I know there are other people out there that may disagree with me, but Article 1 Sections -- I think it's 3 or 6 and 7, specifically point out that you can impeach the president and it does not indicate that you can impeach someone who is not in office.

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): The preponderance of the legal opinion is that an impeachment trial after someone has left office is constitutional. I believe that's the case. I'll, of course, hear what the lawyers have to say for each side. But I think it's pretty clear that the effort is constitutional.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: So, Democrats though, of course, seem very much on point. They saw all of this is about accountability for what happened up here on Capitol Hill January 6. Pamela?

BROWN: All right. Joe Johns live for us from Capitol Hill, thanks so much, Joe.

So, one question is how does President Biden navigate moving forward when President Trump's impeachment trial begins? CNN's Senior Political Commentator and former senior adviser to President Obama David Axelrod joins us to talk more about this. Good to see you, David.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good to see you, Pam.

BROWN: So, if you were in the White House right now, how would you advise Biden on walking this tight rope and making sure this impeachment doesn't overshadow his priorities?

AXELROD: You know, I think he's handled it well so far. The fact is he was elected to deal with the crisis that is gripping the country right now, which is this virus and the economic implications of this virus. And he knows that he is going to be judged on his ability to do that. This is mission number one.

So he needs his cabinet in place and he needs to be moving forward on those steps to address the virus. And, you know, he has rightly said that this issue of impeachment is a matter for the Congress, but I'm sure he was relieved to have this breathing period so he could get his cabinet confirmed and in place and they can begin work on this package, which is so important to the day-to-day lives of Americans.

BROWN: But right now, the Republicans are still in control of the schedule over at the Senate because they're still going back and forth on the power-sharing agreement.

[18:10:04]

The filibuster is a big sticking point. What would be your advice on that?

AXELROD: Yes, you know, I would not -- I would not give in on the filibuster. I don't think Joe Biden is likely to want to do away with the filibuster. He's a creature of the Senate, but you can't take that out of your -- that arrow out of your quiver if you face the kind of opposition that, for example, President Obama faced from Republicans in Congress.

And, you know, for all the moralizing that we've heard from Republicans in Congress about it, they've eliminated the filibuster when it was convenient for them, including for the confirmation of Supreme Court justices. So, you know, I think this is a very, very tough balance he's trying to strike. He does, I'm sure knowing him, want to work across partisan lines where he can. But he also has a sense of urgency about getting his program passed, particularly the program that relates to the virus and to the economic well-being of a lot of Americans who have been badly, badly damaged by it.

So, you know, it is -- these are the decisions he's got to make, including the one that Arlette referenced about whether or not to trigger budget reconciliation, which would allow him to pass his economic plan and his virus plan or many elements of it with just a majority of the Senate. That may be what he has to do.

BROWN: But then how would that impact the Republicans? His whole thing so far has been about bipartisanship. If he did reconciliation, would that hurt him down the line with Republicans on other priorities?

AXELROD: That's the thing that he'll have to consider. You know, I'm sure he wants to get to the place, and we should get to the place, where even if you can't work together on some things, you can work together on other things. That's how government should run. And you should not have to hold hostage some elements of your plan because Republicans don't agree with it or Democrats don't agree with it if you're a Republican president. And that's what he's working toward.

You know, in terms of style and approach, he has taken a very conciliatory posture, but I don't think you can deal away major elements of your program. And it will be interesting to see what comes of these talks that Brian Deese had today with senators of both parties to see if they can arrive at a compromise that the administration feels is adequate to the needs of the moment relative to the virus, because if they can't, you know, he's going to have to move forward in another way.

BROWN: Yes, it's interesting to hear your perspective of what it's probably like behind the scenes in these first crucial days for the Biden administration. David Axelrod, thank you so much for spending part of your Sunday with us.

AXELROD: Great to be with you, Pam.

BROWN: Well, think about this. Right now, an American comes down with coronavirus about once every second. CNN's Natasha Chen is following it all for us.

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, an influential coronavirus model that's slightly increasing its projection where how many Americans could die of COVID-19 by May 1st.

But coming up, we'll talk about some of the better news from that same model, but how many lives couldbe saved by the vaccine rollout.

BROWN: Plus the Republican Party has some soul searching to do. They lost control of the Senate and White House. What is the future of the GOP? I'll ask former Republican Governor John Kasich.

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[18:15:00]

BROWN: In the two and a half weeks since the U.S. Capitol attack, we have learned that 38 Capitol police officers have now tested positive for the coronavirus. We don't know how many of those officers were on duty January 6th, but at the time of the rioting there was concern that the large group of people and limited masks would spread the virus.

But, first, today, the U.S. surpassed 25 million confirmed cases of the virus. Just to put those numbers in perspective for you, that is if everyone in the state of New York plus everyone in Massachusetts had gotten sick with the coronavirus since this pandemic began one year ago. And the CDC also says more than 21 million doses of COVID vaccine have been administered across the United States. Now, that is up more than 1.3 million doses from the days before.

CNN Natasha Chen joins me from Atlanta for more on this. So, it is encouraging, Natasha, that so many people are being vaccinated. So many more people, but it's also going slower than hoped, right?

CHEN: Right, Pamela. Those numbers you just said, that is keeping pace with the Biden administration's goal of administering at least 1 million doses per day. But Dr. Vivek Murthy, Biden's pick for U.S. surgeon general, says that is the floor, not ceiling. So the goal is to potential is to administer even more vaccines.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHEN (voice over): The U.S. has now surpassed 25 million coronavirus cases, and the death toll continues to climb with more than 3,000 people who have died of COVID-19 every day in the last four days. And the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation projects a total of 569,000 Americans will have died from coronavirus by May 1st.

Xavier Becerra, President Biden's nominee to run Health and Human Services, described it this way on Sunday.

XAVIER BECERRA, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES NOMINEE: Now, the plane is in a nosedive and we've got to pull it up and you're not going to do that overnight. But we're going to pull it up. We have to pull it up. Failure is not an option here.

CHEN: There has been some good news. The same model that predicted 569,000 deaths also show 43,000 people's lives may be saved in that same timeframe thanks to vaccination. And the seven-day moving average of new cases in the U.S. is starting to drop after an aggressive post- holiday peak.

[18:20:01]

And the positivity rate stayed low enough in Chicago for restaurants and bars to restart limited indoor dining.

CASEY CORA, FRONTERA GRILL RESTAURANTS: When it started swirling around our staff that it was going to be able to happen, there was a spark in everybody's eyes to be able to know that we're going to be able to do what we do best once again, and that's an exciting thing for us in the hospitality profession.

CHEN: That same look of excitement and gratitude --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're from you? How sweet. That's so very kind.

CHEN: -- is in the eyes of millions of people lining up to be vaccinated around the country, including now mobile and pop-up vaccination sites run by companies like Amazon.

The challenge is getting more supply distributed to what's currently a patchwork of local health providers who are sometimes battling website crashes and scheduling mishaps.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one knew what the hell they were doing, so they sent everybody home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If this is happening to me, and I'm well- educated, my husband is a state senator, if this is happening to me, what's happening to people who don't have what I have and don't have the access that I have?

CHEN: Meanwhile, officials have their eye on coronavirus variants and how well the vaccine may hold up as the virus changes.

DR. VIVEK MURTHY, U.S. SURGEON GENERAL NOMINEE: It means we've got to, number one, do much better genomic surveillance so we can identify variants when they arise. It means, we've got to double down on public health measures, like masking and avoiding indoor gatherings.

And the bottom line is we're in a race against the variants. The virus is going to change and it's up to us to adapt and to make sure we're staying ahead.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHEN (on camera): So, Murthy was saying that, still, wearing masks and social distancing is extremely important. And Xavier Becerra, in his interview, also avoided giving a timeline for when Americans, when anyone who would want a vaccine could get it. So, those public health measures, in the meantime, are extremely critical, Pamela.

BROWN: All right. Natasha Chen, live for us from Atlanta, thanks, Natasha.

And on Wednesday night, CNN brings you a new global town hall, the race to vaccinate America. Dr. Anthony Fauci and top doctors from President Biden's coronavirus team join Anderson Cooper and Dr. Sanjay Gupta for Coronavirus, Facts and Fears. Again, that is Wednesday night at 8:00 P.M. Eastern right here on CNN.

And the Biden administration, well, it has a tough sell. How do you convince Republicans to back a new stimulus bill days after taking office? The White House met with a dozen lawmakers this afternoon and I'll talk to one of the president's economic advisers about this effort, up next.

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[18:25:00]

BROWN: Tonight, we are getting a closer look at the Trump administration's response to the pandemic and what was going on behind the scenes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DEBORAH BIRX, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS RESPONSE COODRINATOR: I saw the president presenting graphs that I never made. So I know that someone or someone out there or someone inside was creating a parallel set of data and graphics that were shown to the president. I know what I sent up and I know that what was in his hands was different from that.

You can't do that. You have to use the entire --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who was doing that?

BIRX: To this day, I don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And joining me now with more is CNN Medical Analyst Dr. Leana Wen, Emergency Room Physician at George Washington University and former Baltimore Health Commissioner. Dr. Wen, thanks for coming on.

What is your reaction to hearing from Dr. Birx, who has been on the frontline, who has seen so much of the suffering from COVID, what is your reaction?

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Pamela, I have to say that I am not at all surprised, because we have seen people like Scott Atlas who is widely discredited from the rest of the medical and scientific community be an adviser to President Trump. And so I'm not surprised at all that there were other voices who were advising President Trump and creating their own alternative set of reality.

Look, I understand if there are different policy decisions that you reach, but you have to start with the same set of facts, and I guess I'm not surprised we're now seeing more than 400,000 people dead in the U.S. how this all happened.

BROWN: Yes. So how do you see the practical impact on that, of how it trickled down, how that from the White House trickled down into everyday Americans being impacted by COVID?

WEN: We've seen all the way through this response what happens when we don't have a national strategy, and very critically when there isn't a consistent message between public health officials and our elected leaders, that that level of mixed messaging led to people not knowing who to believe and public trust was really eroded. Public health hinges on that public trust. But I do want to say, in defense of Dr. Birx, who, by the way, I don't know personally, so this is not a defense of her character by knowing her but just based on what I saw in her interview and what I've seen of her response, she was trying to do her best. If she had actually resigned, as some people may have said, maybe she should have resigned to say her point, well, let's play this out and see what would have happened. Somebody else would have been in that role who probably would be much less science and evidence-based.

So she did everything she could, including going directly to states, going directly to talk to governors and mayors. And I think she figured out the best way that she could serve, even though it was really a difficult position to be in.

BROWN: But it's interesting though, because she was different from Dr. Fauci. Dr. Fauci was also there in the Trump administration and he seemed to be very -- much more sort of direct in his disagreements with some of what was coming out of the White House.

[18:30:04]

He talked also about the same thing you had mentioned about look, if I had left, he said that he was the skunk at the picnic and if he had left, there would be no skunk in the picnic. And he felt like that was necessary for him to be around for that reason.

Here's what he said in his "New York Times" interview. He talks about then President Trump's refusal to believe what experts were telling him. And Dr. Fauci told the paper, quote, "We would say things like, this is an outbreak. Infectious diseases run their own course unless one does something to intervene. And then he would get up and start talking about, it's going to go away. It's magical. It's going to disappear."

I think a lot of people realized that there was a disconnect between fantasy and reality in the White House. But how do you react to hearing Dr. Fauci spell it out like that?

WEN: I mean, my heart goes out to him and to the other public health officials who are in that position because on the one hand, you don't want to be directly contradicting the president for whom you work. But on the other hand, you have an obligation to the American people to tell the truth. And so I think that Dr. Fauci, Dr. Birx and others were put into this really untenable position that no scientist or public health official should ever be in.

But I would also say that Dr. Fauci was able to speak out, in part, probably because Dr. Birx was working behind the scenes to try to get the administration to change their ways. And so it, again, is a very difficult scenario and I can't help but think what would have happened, where would we be now as the United States if we had a competent administration that actually valued the voice of scientists.

BROWN: All right, Dr. Leana Wen, thank you very much.

WEN: Thank you. BROWN: Well, President Joe Biden's economic recovery bill would inject

nearly $2 trillion into the economy. The bill named the American Rescue Plan includes another direct payment of $1400 to eligible Americans. More money for those receiving unemployment benefits. Help for renters. And more money for child care and child tax credits. But it will not happen potentially unless the new president can persuade Republicans and the Senate that they should back it.

Jared Bernstein is a member of the White House Council of Economic Advisers. He joins me now.

Thanks so much. Great to see you. Of course, it won't happen if he doesn't go the route with reconciliation and that is a big open question if that is still on the table. If you would, though, before we get to that, could you update us on this White House call with 16 Republican senators today? It just wrapped up a few hours ago. Did any progress come from it? Did anyone commit to backing the plan who was previously skeptical?

JARED BERNSTEIN, MEMBER, WHITE HOUSE COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS: I think considerable progress came out of that in terms of building consensus for this plan. And underscoring how wide the range of support is for the package, we knew some of that going into the call. So for example, organized labor unions were a big backer of this plan. And that shouldn't surprise anyone. Typically a Democratic constituency.

But so was the Business Roundtable and the Chamber of Commerce. So were mayors and governors from across the nation, bipartisan. And that makes total sense when you think about the kinds of things they're dealing with in their state both in terms of controlling the virus, distributing the vaccine and trying to reopen schools. Dozens of economists are on all sides of the aisle, including, by the way, Trump's former chief economist, my old friend, Kevin Hassett, said some very positive things about the urgency of the plan yesterday. So today's call helped underscore some of this bipartisan urgency.

BROWN: So just, if you would, help us understand a little bit more about the specifics of that. You said building consensus. Can you tell me anything more specific about what that looks like and who exactly is coming more on board with some of what's in the package that previously was skeptical?

BERNSTEIN: You know, I don't have a full read-out of all the people. You know, Angus King tweeted, I believe, something to the effect of we're on the same -- there's a lot of consensus -- I'm paraphrasing, there's a lot of consensus in here regarding controlling the virus and distributing the vaccine. And I think that's kind of the number one thing.

You know, I heard Dr. Wen, as she went out talking about how difficult it was trying to do what needed to be done with an administration that didn't value competence and didn't value science. Well, now we have a different administration that very much values and elevates science and competence. And my sense is that in the call today, that was something that was

warmly embraced by all sides. That doesn't mean that everybody is going to agree on every detail. That's politics. And Joe Biden has a long history of working on those types of negotiations. We should be thankful that we have a president who has, you know, so many decades in the Senate. He's been to this rodeo. So I think these negotiations are going to be, I think, very much boosted by this kind of urgency that was there on the call today.

BROWN: And you mentioned Angus King. We're going to have him on the show in the next hour. So we'll talk to him about that tweet.

[18:35:01]

But I want to play you -- for you what Senator Mitt Romney told CNN's Dana Bash on this morning's "STATE OF THE UNION."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): Well, I think at this early stage, just having passed over $900 billion in relief, that before we were to pass a new program, we need to understand where the money is going. Are these to individuals or to entities that really need the help? How has the first $900 billion we just passed a couple of weeks ago, how has that been distributed? Most of it hasn't been yet. What impact will that have?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Does Senator Romney have a point there? And do you have any answer to the questions he raised?

BERNSTEIN: He raises good questions for which I believe I have good answers. If you look at the plan that was passed in December and where that gets us, it gets us a month or two out in terms of both providing the kinds of relief that businesses and unemployed people need, providing the kinds of protections from evictions and foreclosures. It doesn't get us kind of to the other side of the crisis.

Nowhere nearly enough support to reopen our schools, to do the kinds of testing and tracing and setting up the public health mechanisms that President Biden has proposed to reopen the schools. It simply doesn't have enough juice to get us all the way there. So it is, as the president has said, a critically important down payment. The senator is absolutely right about that. But if you look at where the unemployment rate is, how long it's going to take us to get to full employment, that's a good point.

There was a recent analysis by the economist Mark Zandi, who showed that if we just stop now with the plan that Senator Romney was just talking about, it will take us a full year longer to get back to the kinds of unemployment rates that people need, especially people in communities of color, to get back to work. So it's a good start, but it's not enough. The economics of that and the epidemiology of that is very clear. BROWN: All right. Jared Bernstein, thank you very much for coming on

and sharing with us what you know about this plan. We'll keep that discussion going certainly.

BERNSTEIN: My pleasure.

BROWN: Well, some big-named Republicans are being censored right now by their own party. Is this the new game plan for the GOP, punish from within? I'll ask former Ohio governor John Kasich. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:41:30]

BROWN: Well, the post-Trump era is shaping up to be a messy one for the Republican Party. In Arizona yesterday, the state party voted to censure, and that means essentially a formal condemnation for three prominent Republicans, Cindy McCain, wife of the late Senator John McCain, Doug Ducey, the current governor of Arizona, and Jeff Flake, another former senator.

And while McCain and Flake were critics of President Trump, Ducey was a supporter. But he was also a traitor in the eyes of Trump supporters because he certified the results of his state's election, giving Arizona and its 11 electoral votes to Joe Biden.

Is this a fight of a preview of what's in store for the national Republican Party? Let's discuss with the former Republican governor of Ohio, John Kasich. He is also a CNN senior commentator.

Thank you so much for coming on.

JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR COMMENTATOR: Pamela, before we get going, I just want to wish you the best of luck. Your maiden show. So best of luck and wish you great success.

BROWN: Thank you so much.

KASICH: You've earned it.

BROWN: Thank you very much. And I really appreciate you coming on the premiere of the show this weekend. It means a lot. And it's really great to hear -- it will be good to hear what your thoughts are on the GOP. Like how would you sum up what the GOP is right now in a nutshell? How would you describe it?

KASICH: I would think what happened in Arizona is just not consequential. Those folks don't care. Cindy McCain doesn't care. Jeff Flake is out. And Ducey says he doesn't want to run for the Senate. You know, the party is split. You've got the state party and the state party structures that are still hanging on to Trump and a lot of other people who are not.

So, you know, it may actually take another election where Republicans lose before they come to their senses that this whole Trump nihilism where, you know, we're just against everybody else and we just find scapegoats for everything that isn't going right.

I mean, there's going to be a debate about whether Republicans, Pamela, can actually be for something. Let me just make a point to you about this. If you're a political party or if you're anything, and if you don't have any new ideas, you have no energy.

Now, I have very many disagreements with the progressives, but you know what gives them energy? They have ideas. And if Republicans only want to be against Biden or against this or against that, there's no energy in that. And they will not be able to win if they don't have energy with new ideas, which they seem to have lost their direction about.

BROWN: So, I mean, and you raise the point again, how would you describe what the GOP is? You consider yourself a Republican. But do you feel like you belong in --

KASICH: Sure.

BROWN: In the GOP party as it looks right now?

KASICH: Pamela, well, first of all, I'm a Republican. I have great success as governor. I was re-elected by one of the widest margins in Ohio history. And I have a right to define what it means to be a Republican. I have a right to define what it means to be a conservative. And these folks, you know, they call themselves conservatives. No, they're not. They're not for trade. They're for all these shutdowns on trade.

They're against immigration, which it's never been the Republican Party. They looked the other way on taxes. So my view, free trade. Open trade. Fair trade. OK. What immigration? They're a vital component to what drives energy in our country.

The debt, it's unconscionable and this is a problem that Biden is going to have when he keeps pushing all these spending packages. And so these are things -- the wealth gap, a health care bill -- you know, these are things you have to do. You have to have ideas and plans and you have to work to improve people's lives.

That's why you're in politics. Not just to win elections, but to do something when you win or there's no point to it to be honest with you.

[18:45:05]

BROWN: So you're basically saying the Trump nihilists are not reflective of the GOP and the Republican Party as a whole?

KASICH: Well, no. I think that they are ascended right now but with Trump losing and being out of the picture, it's going to cause a real fight. Now, we have something coming up called redistricting in the states. And what I'm concerned about is that these party leaders who are still stuck in Trump world, still stuck in an alternate universe, they're going to use redistricting to draw lines. Maybe everybody watching has heard the term gerrymandering. I mean, what it means is you just draw a line where somebody has to

represent an area that they simply can't win. And I am very concerned what they're going to do is try to eliminate these people through the process of gerrymandering. But this won't go on forever because the party won't go on forever if they keep acting this way. It won't happen.

BROWN: I want to ask you about the Senate trial in a couple of weeks before we let you go. Do you think --

KASICH: Yes.

BROWN: Is there any scenario where 17 Republicans would get on board to convict former President Trump?

KASICH: Well, two things. One is what's Mitch McConnell going to do? He has a seeming control on that Senate. If he were to give a signal that he was going to vote to convict, that would be very compelling. After all, he's from Kentucky. He's not from California.

That's number one. And number two is we have to see what further developments come. And there may be things that come out through witnesses or whatever that's going to make this case very, very compelling. As of now, they're not going to get to 17, but that's today. And tomorrow can be a different day, Pamela.

BROWN: All right. John Kasich, again, thank you so much for coming on.

KASICH: Thank you.

BROWN: This Sunday evening. Really appreciate it. We hope you'll be back with us soon.

KASICH: Hey, Tom Brady is going to the Super Bowl again. That old guy keeps winning.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: There you go. All right. Thanks so much.

KASICH: All right.

BROWN: Talk to you later.

KASICH: Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:51:21]

BROWN: We're hearing warnings from experts on extremism who worry the attack on the Capitol was just the beginning. These experts who study groups like white supremacists say there's been a surge in chatter online about taking America back as far right figures and QAnon conspiracy theorists are joined by Trump supporters who believe the election was stolen. In order to understand the threat of this big lie CNN's Sara Sidner

who covers hate groups for CNN talked to some of the folks pushing it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The conspiracy fueled deadly Capitol attack on January 6th may be just the beginning of an explosion of far-right violence.

OREN SEGAL, VICE PRESIDENT, CENTER ON EXTREMISM, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: The plots of tomorrow, the activities of tomorrow, the efforts for them to maintain this movement and create threats in the future are literally being planned today.

SIDNER: Far-right radicalization has been building in America for years, evidence of it all over the largest social media platforms on earth. And even after mega-sites like Facebook said they were cracking down, the Tech Transparency Project, a nonprofit watchdog group, found it's still easy to find extremist content calling for violence on the site.

Three days after the attack, this post, "We need to organize our militia. Wars are won with guns. And when they silence your commander- in-chief, you are in a war." Another posted January 14th, "Patriots, January 20th, 2021 is your Tiananmen Square moment."

SEGAL: Social media to extremism is like oxygen for fire. It's required. It has shown itself to be one of the organizing factors for extremists.

SIDNER: Facebook removed the post from the site and the public group calling itself the Patriot Party, but the poison has already set in.

In Michigan, after an armed rally at the Capitol against the governor last year, federal and state authorities thwarted an alleged violet plot to kidnap the governor. A few of the same men who say they stood by some of those alleged plotters returned yesterday.

And as with the Capitol Hill terrorists, these guys are out in the open, sharing their extreme views.

(On camera): And tell me about your patch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Patch? This one? This one, this is a Boogaloo.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do not want a civil war or anything. We want to exercise every possible way before that becomes an option.

SIDNER: Is that an option, in your mind, a civil war?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do not -- I will not fire the first shot. But if it comes to that, I will fight.

SIDNER (voice-over): The Boogaloo Boys are a burgeoning anti- government group which started online. Some of its members are pushing for civil war. At least one Michigan Boogaloo Boy was arrested this fall in the plot to kidnap the governor, a plan for violence that law enforcement thankfully prevented and yet those who support the plan are all right out in the open.

(On camera): Would you have supported them if they had kidnapped the governor?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would have supported a citizen's arrest on a felony because that is what the law states. If a felony is committed, a citizen can arrest another citizen.

SIDNER (voice-over): The governor has not committed a crime, but instead was a potential victim of a violent crime. And yet the lie persists among extremists threatening Michigan legislators' safety. They brought their weapons. They do have the right to open carry, but some see their firearms as clear threats.

This guy said he does not support violence and would only use his AR- 15 to save an innocent life.

(On camera): That's the weapons you hear a lot of times that are used in attacks that are not to save innocent people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

SIDNER: Why carry it? I mean, have you been in the Armed Forces or...?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was in the National Guard, yes. This right here is not dangerous unless the person behind it is dangerous.

[18:55:04]

I would say that this ain't any different than the muskets the Minutemen carried back in the Revolution.

SIDNER (voice-over): While he stood outside the Capitol, current National Guardsmen stood nearby at the ready to protect Michigan's seat of government, much like Guardsmen are doing across the country in case the next wave of violence erupts.

Sara Sidner, CNN, Lansing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And our thanks to Sara for that report.

Still to come tonight, the White House starts bipartisan talks with senators over a new economic stimulus. Will it work? I'm going to talk to a senator who was on that call.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)