Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) is Interviewed about Impeachment; Trump Commutes Sentence of Man Still Facing Accusations of Violence; Look into Pro-Trump Conspiracy Theorists. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired January 27, 2021 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): Let alone accept it.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So any minute now, any day now, you will officially become chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. So I'm putting this question to you as a legal matter. Why would the framers of the Constitution, how could one suggest that they would create a document that would allow a sitting president to commit treason or high crimes and misdemeanors in the final weeks or month of his or her presidency with impunity if they can't be punished through --

DURBIN: They did not.

BERMAN: OK, go ahead.

DURBIN: They did not. And we tested this concept in the 19th century, in the year 1876. The secretary of war, President Ulysses S. Grant, William Belknap decided he would get off the hook on an impeachment by resigning. The Senate -- both the House and the Senate rejected it and went forward with the impeachment. So the position that's taken by Rand Paul and those yesterday that the president's out of office, leave him alone, let him go ride off into the sunset, just doesn't square with the Constitution and its wording, nor in the precedent of the United States Senate.

BERMAN: The decision about whether to allow actual witnesses, it will depend on what the House managers want. But it will also depend on what Senate leadership wants or how you all want to conduct this trial.

Where are you right now on witnesses?

DURBIN: We want a complete trial. But I can tell you that, as you know, everyone knows, we have mountains of videotape. We have clear evidence in front of us as to what occurred that day. What the president said, what the crowd did and, sadly, what those mobsters did to the policeman, Capitol policemen, one of whom gave his life in the service to our nation, and we know that -- that evidence is very clear in addition to our personal experience.

BERMAN: Can I just ask you how Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont is doing this morning? Have you got any word? He was sent to the hospital.

DURBIN: Good news.

BERMAN: Go ahead. Go ahead.

DURBIN: Good news. Yes, he's -- he was discharged from the hospital last night. He -- he's home and he tweeted to -- sent a message out this morning to his colleagues. He feels good. He's coming back to the Capitol today. He's lucky to have a wonderful wife who just happens to be a nurse. So she's going to keep her eye on him.

BERMAN: Vermont man. A pair of mittens, a jacket and good Constitution. We now know what all Vermonters can do.

Senator, let me ask you this. On the issue of the relief package, the Senate is moving forward with the process of reconciliation. What that means in English for our viewers who aren't into the arcane language here, is you've begun a process which would allow you to pass a relief bill, perhaps the president's $1.9 trillion proposal, with just Democrats, with a simple majority. Why have you moved forward with that process before seeing through whether or not you can reach a bipartisan agreement?

DURBIN: Well, the discussions are underway. And I sincerely hope we can come up with a bipartisan agreement. But let me tell you, we can't waste any time. We know across America, millions of Americans are anxious to be vaccinated, to put this pandemic behind them. And we know that the Trump administration did not leave us a plan or the logistics to accomplish that.

President Biden wants to move and move quickly. He's talked about 100 vaccinations -- 100 million vaccinations in 100 days and really reaching out to all of America by the end of the summer. That's an ambitious goal. We have no time to waste. I hope if the Republicans are going to join us in this effort, that they'll do so immediately.

BERMAN: But you're still going to begin the reconciliation process? You're going to begin the process of doing it without them?

DURBIN: Well, we have no choice but to be ready for that eventuality. I hope it doesn't come to that. I know there are some Republicans who want to work with us. If they can step up and lead others to join us, we can get the votes necessary to go through the regular process.

BERMAN: Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois, thank you very much for being with us this morning. Appreciate it.

DURBIN: It's good to be with you.

BERMAN: The former president commuted the sentence of a convicted drug smuggler who has been accused of threatening people with violence, kidnapping, even death. New reporting, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:37:54] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: President Biden signing four executive orders aimed at increasing racial equity and eliminating systemic racism in the federal government. The actions address the prison system, housing discrimination, tribal governments and combating xenophobia. President Biden says the measures follow one of his core campaign promises.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have never fully lived up to the founding principles of this nation, to state the obvious. That all people are created equal and have a right to be treated equally throughout their lives. And it's time to act now, not only because it's the right thing to do, but because if we do, we will all be better off for it.

We must change. And I know it's going to take time, but I know we can do it. And I firmly believe the nation is ready to change. But government has to change as well. We need to make equity and justice part of what we do every day, today, tomorrow and every day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: President Biden also signed an executive order last week requiring federal departments and agencies to look for ways to address racial equity.

BERMAN: All right, new this morning, we're learning that Rosalind Brewer will become the next CEO of Walgreens, making her the only black woman who will currently lead a Fortune 500 company.

Washington's football team just promoted Jennifer King to assistant running back's coach. It's like attorneys general. She is now the first black woman with a full-time NFL coaching job.

And the youngest inaugural poet in history, Amanda Gorman, just signed with one of the world's biggest modeling agencies. IMG Models says they're working with Gorman to build a profile in fashion and beauty. Gorman's upcoming books are currently at the top of Amazon's bestseller list.

CAMEROTA: Wow.

All right, in his final hours in office, President Trump issued scores of pardons and commutations to prisoners, including a convicted drug smuggler who is still facing separate accusations of violence and threats.

CNN's Jason Carroll joins us now.

What do we know, Jason?

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the man in question is a New Yorker by the name of Jonathan Braun. Braun's attorney says nothing out of the line here, that his client deserved to have his sentence commuted, but prosecutors in New York saying there's no way a man with his history deserved it.

[08:40:11]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I care about money more than you. You're a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) liar and a cheater and a thief.

CARROLL (voice over): This video captured how Jonathan Braun treated people who allegedly owed money.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to prison. You're a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) low life and a loser and a degenerate.

CARROLL: In the end, it was Braun who ended up in prison. After he pleaded guilty to drug conspiracy charges, a judge sentenced him in 2019 to ten years for being the ringleader of a drug smuggling operation. The video was not part of any case against him. Last week, Braun was released from prison after his sentence was commuted by former President Donald Trump, one of many commutations and pardons announced in his final hours as president.

MARC FERNICH, JONATHAN BRAUN'S ATTORNEY: Needless to say, his family was ecstatic and very grateful about it.

CARROLL: But the allegations against Braun go beyond drug smuggling. According to a suit filed against Braun and others by the New York state attorney general last June, while out on bail, Braun helped run a short-term lending operation charging small business owners interest rates of up to 400 percent, and allegedly threatening violence when they didn't pay. The FTC filed a similar suit.

DANIEL ZELENKO, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's clear that a lot of these pardons were 11th hour, last minute. But this one appears to be quite egregious.

CARROLL: Lawyers claiming I court documents that Braun threatened to beat a synagogue president who had borrowed money, alleging Braun said, I am going to make you bleed. Also alleging he told another borrower, be thankful you're not in New York because your family would find you floating in the Hudson.

New York's attorney general saying, Jonathan Braun has threatened small business owners with violence, death and even kidnapping. A federal commutation will not protect Mr. Braun from being held accountable.

The New York AG saying she's seeking upwards of $77 million in damages from Braun and others as part of a lawsuit. The lawyer representing Braun in the civil cases did not return our request for comment but Braun has denied the allegations in court filings.

Marc Fernich, the attorney who defended Braun in the drug-related case, questions those who say Braun used threats of violence, telling CNN, foul language may be impolite and unpleasant, but it's not illegal. FERNICH: These allegations were made by disgruntled borrowers.

I'm confident in Jon's intellect and his character and his ability to follow the law and be a productive, law-abiding citizen, father and husband.

CARROLL: Fernich says this sentence should have been commuted because it was excessive.

There was no mention of the outstanding cases in the White House's statement regarding executive grants of clemency. The section related to Braun reads in part, Mr. Braun has served five years of a ten-year sentence for conspiracy to import marijuana and to commit money laundering. But Braun served only one year of his sentence at the federal correctional institution at Otisville, New York, ranked by "Forbes" magazine in 2009 as one of America's ten cushiest prisons.

ZELENKO: This is exactly the kind of thing that happens when the Justice Department's vetting process is completely ignored. You have somebody who's pardoned for one crime but remains under investigation for another.

CARROLL: Historians predicting Braun's name will be added to a long list of questionable last-minute pardons and commutations Trump granted during his final hours as president.

TIMOTHY NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: It's not that his predecessors didn't have the odd, controversial or bad pardon. It's that, for them, it was the exception. However, for Donald Trump, it was the rule.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: So, Alisyn, when it comes to these controversial commutations and pardons, legal experts say that there's one thing that can be done, change the Constitution so you don't have these last-minute pardons. Change the Constitution so you prevent pardons happening, for example, after Election Day, that way a president knows that whatever decisions that they make when it comes to these pardons, that they could be held accountable by the American people.

But, once again, that would require a change to the Constitution and there just doesn't seem to be a lot of appetite do something like that.

Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: It seems like they have other things on their to-do list at the moment.

But, Jason, thank you very much for that reporting.

So what does it sound like when QAnon followers get together to chat online? What do they say to each other? What do they really believe? You will hear them in their own chilling words, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:48:45]

CAMEROTA: A fascinating new look at some pro-Trump supporters who believe the wild QAnon conspiracy theories. Thanks to a "New York Times" report, you are about to hear them in their own words. This is called "Three Weeks Inside A Pro Trump QAnon Chat Room." "New York Times" opinion reporter Stuart Thompson explains what he heard as he listened in to these conspiracy theorists talk to each other on a public chat room app.

Here's just one sample.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to trust there's going to be military tribunals and we get to watch all kinds of executions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK.

Joining us now is that "New York Times" editor, Stuart Thompson.

Stuart, great to talk to you this morning.

I listened to all of this last night in preparation and it was mind bending. And you spent three weeks listening in on this chat room. And so let's just start at the beginning. Let's just start with what we just heard.

Why did these QAnon people believe that there were going to be military tribunals and public televised executions? I mean where are they getting this?

STUART THOMPSON, EDITOR/WRITER, "NEW YORK TIMES" OPINION: Yes, it's a lot of what the QAnon believers follow and they get clues from Q himself as the figure of the -- in the center of all of this.

[08:50:00]

And they start interpreting what those clues mean. And over time there's been, you know, a number of different theories. The tribunals was one. Public executions. And these are for crimes that they believe are related to, you know, sex trafficking rings and things like that, that are all part of the deep state and these other figures. And, you know, just sort of snowballs within the group. And this chat room is sort of one of those places where people go and they look for reinforcement and encouragement in testing out new theories and explanations for what's going to happen.

CAMEROTA: So let's listen to what they thought would be President Trump's final act. I assume that they thought that this is what would happen on January 20th as Joe Biden was being inaugurated.

So let's listen to this moment. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His farewell speech is going to be he declares martial law and then, as he's doing that, they're arresting the people like Biden's administration and all those corrupt suckers. And that's why they have all of the security around the White House Capitol Hill area. And as they're doing that, he's going to read to us all the evidence, show us everything and lay it all out right there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: That's what they thought thousands of National Guard and Capitol Police were doing around the Capitol. That that was going to be his final stand and he was going to arrest everybody in Biden's administration.

I mean, Stuart, from what you heard, do they just all go -- and these were sort of their hunches, their fears and that when they talk about it with each other, it somehow gains steam and credence?

THOMPSON: Yes, well, they start by rejecting mainstream media and any sort of information that we would normally rely on to confirm whether something is true. And then that creates a huge void where they're going to get information from then to satisfy the craving to sort of fulfill the -- and solve these mysteries that Q puts out.

And so then they turn to each other and they also turn to a huge network of disinformation and influencers within this community who really are -- seem to be just trying to get attention for whatever other purposes they're after. And they're able to fill that void with a lot of theories and new puzzles and new clues as to what's going on. And, you know, you -- you go down the road and give that some time and you end up with, you know, the quotes that you hear in this piece.

CAMEROTA: As you know, there is a Senate trial impending for former President Donald Trump. But the people on this chat room that you listened to, they were quite clear about who they believe sent them to the Capitol for a violent siege.

So let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does he not realize President Trump called us to siege the place?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Did you hear that again? I mean did you hear that over and over of who they were taking cues from?

THOMPSON: Yes, exactly. During the day, in the lead-up to the protest and then the eventual insurrection attempt, there was chatter about sieging the Capitol, storming the Capitol, hoping that that would happen. And then, you know, watching it unfold, they were pretty pleased with everything that was going on. Only afterwards did they then, you know, turn to groups like Antifa, which is a common scapegoat, to explain that they were the ones advocating for violence and pushing into the building first and -- and so there's not really a reckoning with that -- you know, with their beliefs and the consequences that they caused. But having the audio, you could really point back and track that over time and see that kind of -- some delusion unfold in real time.

CAMEROTA: For some people, it appears, I mean you -- you correct me if I'm wrong, that they do have occasional moments of clarity where they snap out of it for a second and wonder if maybe all of this is somehow just fantasy land.

So let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am ready to see something go down. I want to know if this is all real or we've just been being yanked around by a bunch of idiots sitting in their bedrooms throwing all this fake information out there. I mean, I want to believe that Trump is holding all the cards and that he's just being deceitful right now so that he can nail everybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: I mean when she says, I want to believe that we're not just being yanked around by a bunch of idiots sitting in their bedrooms throwing all of this fake information out there. Did you hear others who occasionally snapped out of it?

THOMPSON: Yes, definitely. And I think that speaks to Q's appeal and how it brings people in from all different walks of life. And because there's no central, clear narrative, it's more like a puzzle, you can pick and choose the pieces that you want to believe in.

And a lot of people did express doubts and weren't really clear or certain about what was happening. And -- and, you know, they had hopes that things would unfold the way they wanted. And because the goal post is always moving, every time it didn't happen, they were able to find a new thing to look forward to and hope for and anticipate down the road. And then, you know, a smattering of other clues that that was going to happen and the -- you know, they were correct about that.

After Biden was inaugurated, which was really the climax of this whole thing, I expected that people might start reckoning with that more.

[08:55:04]

And briefly they did, but that didn't really stick.

CAMEROTA: And so, Stuart, after three weeks of listening in, as you did, sort of around the clock, to this chat room, what did you take away from this? I mean, I think, based upon your report, that you developed some sympathy for QAnon.

So what should the rest of us know about them? THOMPSON: Yes, I think it's, you know, risky or perilous maybe to try

to humanize everybody within the, you know, big Trump umbrella or the QAnon umbrella. There's, you know, there's bad people and there's a lot of advocating for violence and I don't want to diminish that. But there's also a lot of people who, you know, my impression going into it was like, I don't know who these, you know, people are and why they believe in this stuff, but really they're sort of like average Americans in a lot of ways. They, you know, they have grandkids, they have birthday parties, they're working jobs. And then this is another thing that's in their life. And to them it doesn't seem like they're the bad ones. They seem like the good ones, which is true of a lot of, you know, sort of groups like this.

And, yes, you know, it's -- you connect with their voices in this piece, I think, in a way that is hard to do when you're just reading things online and -- and you can also, though, take more seriously what they're saying. So, you know, it's -- we dismiss sometimes maybe things that are written on the Internet, but here I think it comes through pretty crystal clear that for some of these people, the executions are really something that they would like to see happen and those are for, you know, people who they think have committed crimes, not just, you know, (INAUDIBLE).

CAMEROTA: Absolutely. I recommend it to everybody. Everybody should listen to these audiotapes.

Stuart Thompson, thank you very much for the reporting and sharing it with us.

THOMPSON: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: CNN's coverage continues next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:00:00]