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Officer Brian Sicknick Lies in Honor at U.S. Capitol He Died Defending; GOP Leaders Face Critical Test Over Fate of Reps. Greene & Cheney; McCarthy Leaning Toward Removing Greene from Education Committee; House Managers Say Trump 'Singularly Responsible' for Inciting Riot. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired February 03, 2021 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a day we must never forget. And it's a day the officer's family will never forget.

[05:59:03]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's just inherently so empathetic. These Capitol Police officers were a part of his life for so many years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An officer is murdered. Close to a hundred officers injured. It is so incumbent on leaders to call out these dark, divisive conspiracies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we're watching the moral collapse of the Republican Party. This is a product of four years of people being silent about Donald Trump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think Ms. Greene should lose her committee assignments.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think Marjorie Greene is going to be gone, kicked off her committees.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. It is Wednesday, February 3, 6 a.m. here in New York.

And we begin this morning with the U.S. Capitol Police officer, Brian Sicknick, who was killed during the insurrection, his body now lying in honor inside the building that he died defending.

Overnight, President Biden and first -- the first lady, as you can see there, as well as the lawmakers who Sicknick died protecting, paid their respects. A congressional tribute will be held later this morning. And today, House managers will lay out their case against former

President Trump for inciting that insurrection. They argue that Mr. Trump is singularly responsible for the deadly Capitol siege. They want him barred from ever seeking public office again.

Mr. Trump's lawyers claim their client's speech was protected by the First Amendment, and a Senate conviction would be unconstitutional. This morning, President Biden weighs in on this. His brand-new interview ahead.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: We also have breaking new reporting about the meeting overnight between House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy and Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Now, Greene has endorsed statements calling for the execution of Democratic leaders. She has harassed survivors of school shootings. She suggested that mass shootings were staged or hoaxes. She has reportedly made wildly dangerous and outrageously anti-Semitic statements about the existence of Jewish space lasers.

All this and until this morning, we're told, Kevin McCarthy had not made up his mind whether to strip her of committee assignments. No official decision yet.

Now, people familiar with the meeting gave CNN no indication that Greene expressed any remorse. The House Republican Conference meets this afternoon.

But this just in -- there's new reporting from Politico that crossed seconds ago about how McCarthy is leaning. This is big. And we're going to bring that to you in just a second.

First, Josh Campbell at the Capitol, where Officer Brian Sicknick lies in honor this morning -- Josh.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good morning to you. A very solemn ceremony last night at the Capitol, as lawmakers and members of the Capitol Police gathered to remember fallen Officer Brian Sicknick.

Now, a hearse arrived at the East Steps, carrying his remains inside the Rotunda, where he is now lying in state. We saw two officers, one carrying a box with his ashes, another with the American flag, set those down on a table in the middle of the Rotunda.

We then saw lawmakers come in, as well as Capitol Police officers to pay their respects.

Now, just before 10 p.m., we got indication that the president's motorcade had departed the White House for an unscheduled visit. He arrived a short time later, President Biden and the first lady to pay their respects. They arrived there, placing their hands over their hearts as they stood before the remains of this fallen officer.

Now, I wanted you to take a look at one moment, which I think really captures what so many in the nation feel. It's very brief, but you see Biden walk up to two wreaths that are there, and he just shakes his head, seemingly projecting just how senseless this tragedy was, this fallen officer who died in that Capitol riot.

We know that there will be another ceremony today, a departure ceremony. His ashes then will be taken across the river into Virginia and where he will be interred at Arlington National Cemetery -- Alisyn.

BERMAN: Josh, I'll tack it here. What's the latest, in the meantime, on the investigation into Officer Sicknick's death?

CAMPBELL: Authorities are struggling, John, to build a case. That's what our sources are telling CNN, as they try to find the person or persons that were responsible for his death.

We know that there are mountains of evidence. These -- the video footage, some of the selfies that some of these rioters took. We're told that they have not yet pinpointed a moment where someone had actually inflicted an injury upon this officer.

Sources do tell CNN, according to the medical examiner, that he did not receive any type of blunt force trauma. He collapsed on the evening of the riot and then later succumbed to his injuries. But we're told right now, they are struggling to build that murder investigation to try to find, identify, and hold accountable the person responsible for his death.

CAMEROTA: OK, Josh, thank you very much for all of that reporting.

So House GOP leaders meet today, facing a crucial test for their party. What will be the fate of two lawmakers, third-ranking House Republican Liz Cheney, and QAnon believer Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene?

CNN's Lauren Fox is live on Capitol Hill with more. What do we know, Lauren?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, we know that President Trump, former President Trump has been out of office now for roughly two weeks. But he is still really overshadowing the Republican conference over in the House of Representatives.

They are slated to meet today at 4 p.m. to continue discussions about Liz Cheney's vote and other Republicans' vote to impeach the former president a couple of weeks ago.

You also can expect that there is going to be more questions about what House lawmakers are going to do, specifically, Kevin McCarthy is going to do about Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene and whether or not she will remain on her committees.

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FOX (voice-over): The fight over the future of the Republican Party reaching a critical point on Capitol Hill this morning, as House leadership decides whether to punish members who support extremist views and conspiracy theories, or those who voted to impeach former President Donald Trump. In the middle, House Minority Leader, Kevin McCarthy, who spent time

with Trump in Florida just last week. McCarthy will play a part in deciding how to handle freshman Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[06:05:09]

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): President Trump won by a landslide.

FOX: A Georgia lawmaker who, before joining Congress, promoted a multitude of baseless conspiracy theories. McCarthy meeting with Greene late Tuesday night but staying silent on her controversial actions.

But in the Senate, Minority Leader Mitch McConnell condemned the freshman congresswoman without mentioning her by name.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I did yesterday express myself on that particular new member of the House. And I think I adequately spoke out about how I feel about any effort to define the Republican Party in such a way.

FOX: Other senators, like Lindsey Graham, refusing to pick a side.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I want to hear from her. Before I judge what to do about her, I want to know what the facts are.

FOX: For Senator Mitt Romney, keeping Greene in the GOP will be detrimental to the party, writing in a statement, "I think our long history as a party has shown that it's important for us to separate ourselves from the people that are whacky weeds."

Meanwhile, the third-ranking Republican House member, Congresswoman Liz Cheney, is working quietly to hold onto her leadership position, facing scrutiny from some GOP House members after voting to impeach Trump last month.

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I think there needs to be a vote. She didn't just go vote her conscience on the day of the vote. She spoke ahead of time, 36 hours, put out a statement in the sharpest possible terms. When you do that, I think that -- that's a concern.

FOX: In their meeting later today, House Republicans are expected to discuss those ten Republican votes against Trump. McCarthy giving this answer about Cheney's decision in January.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I support her, but I do think she has a lot of questions she has to answer to the conference.

FOX: Congresswoman Adam Kinzinger, who joined Cheney in voting to impeach Trump, says it's time for Republicans to fix their focus.

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): You know, I think we've forgotten the art of leadership or really how to lead. It's sometimes leading in dark moments. It's sometimes calling out things like QAnon or saying that the idea of an election being stolen with widespread, you know -- widespread whatever is false.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOX: And of course, House Democrats are expected to hold a House rules meeting today to try to advance their resolution that would essentially strip Greene of her committee assignments. That is something that Steny Hoyer, the House majority leader, has made clear he is willing to put on the floor if Republicans do not act to remove her -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Lauren, thank you very much for all of that.

We do have some breaking news right now. Politico has just published details from inside that meeting between Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and Congresswoman Greene. And CNN analyst Rachael Bade joins us now with her new reporting in Politico.

Rachael, what did you learn?

RACHAEL BADE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: So last night, McCarthy and Greene sat down; and McCarthy tried to lay out, from my understanding, that this was coming to a head and that her controversial comments from, you know, years past, months past, were putting Republicans in a really bad spot, and they were, frankly, sick of it.

He tried to lay out options for her, my understanding is, to say you can go on TV. You can apologize for your remarks. You can denounce QAnon, this conspiracy theory that, in part, led to some of the violence we saw on January 6. And if you don't, you know, you could see GOP colleagues remove you.

And my understanding is this didn't perhaps go as well as he wanted. There was some hope with Republicans that she would be -- do the graceful thing and remove herself without making them ask.

So McCarthy called a late-night meeting last night with his top lieutenants, basically the ones who choose committee assignments. And they talked about this. And my understanding is the consensus in the room, from my reporting, is that everyone agreed she should probably have to come off Education and Labor.

There was a question about whether they could go to Steny Hoyer, the Democratic leader in the House, and make some sort of deal to keep him from having a floor vote on this issue. The big thrust of the meeting or the feeling in the room was that a floor vote and forcing Republicans to take a vote, a yes or no in terms of removing a colleague, would be catastrophic on the campaign trail. They would either get hit from the base or, if they were in a swing district, they could, you know, be labeled as somebody protecting a QAnon conspiracy theorist.

And so the room agreed that, if they can stop this vote, this Democratic vote, that they want to do that. And so my understanding is that Kevin McCarthy is going to be going to Steny Hoyer, pitching this idea of removing Marjorie Taylor Greene from one committee. She's on two, but one committee, and seeing if they can find a way out like that.

BERMAN: So just to be clear. I want to reiterate this, because this is a big deal, and this is more than we have known up until this point. McCarthy is leaning toward removing her from at least the Education Committee, Rachael?

BADE: That's right. And it's a question of whether that's going to be enough, right? Is Steny Hoyer, are the Democrats going to be OK with that?

[06:10:02]

She's got this other committee. It's sort of a little-known committee. It's a budget -- it's called the Budget Committee. Is there sort of a middle ground that they can come to where she steps off of one but not the other? I don't know.

I mean, I -- I will say that there's a lot of angst -- angst and feelings of discomfort, concern about this woman on the part of Democrats. And I don't know that him offering to take her off one committee himself is going to be enough. We'll have to see.

But especially because last night, I'm hearing that Republicans talked about if they took her off, could they eventually put her on another committee? And that, I just don't think that's going to fly right now for Democrats. The question I have is, are they so concerned about this House vote and voting on this issue that they will give the Democrats what they want and remove her from both?

And another option we could still see that seems kind of unlikely, is we could see Marjorie Taylor Greene come out and apologize, denounce QAnon, and you know, try to make amends herself or step down on her own accord. I'm skeptical this will happen, given her tweets and her defiance that she has shown. But that's another option.

CAMEROTA: I'm skeptical that would happen --

BADE: Right.

CAMEROTA: -- because of what she said just yesterday on a radio show. She said -- she was asked, Do -- would you like to clarify some of your previous positions? Would you like to apologize for them, or whatever?

And she said, "I don't think I have anything to apologize for. For looking things up on the Internet and asking questions about it on Facebook? Big deal." OK?

So that tells you. That was yesterday. That was less than 24 hours ago. So that tells you she doesn't have the, I guess, mental capacity, to understand what's real on Facebook and what isn't. And she doesn't think she needs to apologize for liking other posts about executing top Democrats like President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton. She thinks that's looking things up on Facebook. She doesn't understand that she has incited violence. So I don't know if she doesn't have the mental capacity or what, but

as of 12 hours ago, she had no intention of apologizing.

BADE: And that is probably why we saw McCarthy call this emergency meeting last night. They weren't set to meet to discuss this, but he called them in. They're going to continue this conversation today after he talks to Hoyer.

I do think it's interesting, you know. Republicans, even just 24 hours ago, I was hearing from them, and there was a concern about, you know, if we remove her, are we, you know, catering to Democrats? Are we going to get hit for that?

But I think, overall, the concern amongst Republicans privately about being tied to this woman is what is winning out right now. And that's why you're hearing them actually talk about bringing her off.

Again, will it -- will it happen? We still don't know. But there is broad concern about Republicans being sort of labeled the party of QAnon, which if they allow her to keep saying things like this, then, obviously, that's going to happen. It's already starting to happen.

And meanwhile, you know, my colleagues at Politico also did this story that popped last night about how, over at the Democrats' campaign arm yesterday, there was a conversation about how they would use Republicans and QAnon in elections next year. And that they think this is going to help them with recruiting good candidates, because they'll think they'll flip more seats. And they could possibly hold the majority at the time when a lot of them thought, you know, they were going to be on the defense, because Democrats control Washington, and naturally, Republicans do better at a time when Democrats control Washington and they can flip the House.

BERMAN: Last point I want to reiterate here. Apparently, what you're reporting is one of the outs that McCarthy gave Marjorie Taylor Greene was to publicly denounce QAnon, and she wouldn't do that? I find that fascinating, particularly because the former president, you know, has had that same issue. He's basically said that members of QAnon love America. That's what he knows about it. So she would not publicly denounce QAnon.

BADE: Well, from my understanding, it is -- They're going to see what she says over the next few hours. This isn't a done deal, right? They're going to meet again today. And it's just -- it's going to be a really big day for the Republican Party, not just based on what she does, but what they end up doing.

And this could really determine, you know, the future of how the Republican Party is seen in the coming weeks, coming months, and years. They've got a big choice ahead of them.

BERMAN: Wow. All right. Rachael, thank you so much for all this reporting. Listen, keep us posted over the next few hours. It sounds like there will be major developments as the morning progresses. Thank you.

BADE: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Betrayal of historic proportions. That's the way House impeachment managers describe President Trump's role in the deadly Capitol siege. We have new details about their impeachment case and how the former president's legal team is responding. That's next.

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[06:19:00]

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is probably not likely that -- to get 17 Republicans to change their view and -- and convict on impeachment. But I think it's important that there be certain basic standards that people, at least, are able to see what happened and make their own judgments.

I'm not looking for any retribution. I'm not looking -- it's just, my job is to try to heal the country and move us forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: That's President Biden on the impeachment trial of the former president. It's part of a new interview with "People" magazine. It comes as we're getting a first sense of the cases that will be made in the Senate trial.

Joining us now, CNN White House correspondent Jeremy Diamond and CNN senior legal analyst Laura Coates. She's a former federal prosecutor and host of Sirius XM's "The Laura Coates Show."

And Laura, I just want to jump right into some of the arguments being made by the former president's lawyers here,, because I think they're so interesting and potentially flawed.

One of the arguments that they're hiding behind is the First Amendment. Let me read you a little clip here.

They say, "The 45th president exercised his First Amendment right under the Constitution to express his belief that the election results were suspect." We'll get to the election results in a little bit.

[06:20:10]

But first, the very idea that the First Amendment is a defense in an impeachment trial, there's a different standard here. First of all, their legal understanding and representation of the First Amendment may be suspect in and of itself.

But is there a complete First Amendment right in terms of impeachment? If a president goes out and says, "I'm a Nazi," right? That's protected, legally, under the First Amendment. But there's no way on earth that it would not be impeachable, if the president declared today he's a Nazi, correct?

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Right. Remember, thinking about the definition of high crimes and misdemeanors, it's not quite the same standards you would have in a criminal courtroom. But the underlying premise is the same.

It's not about content regulation if it's about an opinion or if it's about, say, perhaps, political hyperbole. It's about whether it rises to the level of incitement.

We routinely prescribe the level of statements that can be made that have consequences. We have a whole body of law about threats. We talk about defamation. You can't just say anything you'd like without consequence, even in a criminal context or a civil litigation context.

So the idea that his statements are fully First-Amendment-protected speech is what they're going to have to prove against, if you're the House impeachment managers, using the test of what's called the Brandenburg test, whether it actually incited violence.

CAMEROTA: Jeremy, the other thing that the Trump lawyers seem to be hanging their hat on is, Well, he's out of office. He's out of office, and all the stuff that he said about, you know, right before the insurrection, that was like two weeks before he left office, so surely that doesn't count.

And the impeachment managers have a response to that. They say, "There is no January exception to impeachment or any other provision of the Constitution. A president must answer comprehensively for his conduct in office from the first day in office through his last."

That one, I -- that one really kind of resonates, when you think about it. Like, yes, he's out of office now, but not when he said all those things.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right, I mean, the case that the Democrats are making is that, you know, if a president were to do impeachable offenses in his final days in office, but there isn't the time to actually go through the process of impeaching the president, setting up a trial in the Senate, I mean, this stuff takes time. And so what do you do? What -- what's the remedy then?

And the response from the president's attorneys -- well, there is no response to that exactly, but they're simply saying that the process of impeachment is unconstitutional for a former president.

Now, it is important to note that President Trump was impeached while he was still in office. It is simply the trial that is happening after the fact, and that is something that the House Democratic impeachment managers home in on, even as they say, even as they say that, even if he were impeached after he left office, that would also be constitutional, because there is precedent.

But I think it's important, on this free speech argument that they're making, to point out the fact that, if there's anybody who understands the power of their own rhetoric and the way to weaponize rhetoric, it's Donald Trump. I mean, he has been so adept throughout his political career at using words to incite people into action, to -- to rev people up, to do all kinds of things.

And so this notion now that the president's -- the former president's attorneys are putting forward in this brief to say that, Well, he doesn't -- he's not responsible for the power of his words, is really absurd.

BERMAN: But wait, there's more. Laura, I promised you more on the idea of election itself. I'm going to read the full quote now about the First Amendment.

"It's admitted that after the November election, the 45th president exercised his First Amendment right under the Constitution to express his belief that the election results were suspect." And then this, "Insufficient evidence exists upon which a reasonable jurist could conclude that the 45th president's statements were accurate or not, and he therefore denies that they were false."

Now, this right here is the argument we were told the new lawyers wouldn't make, basically. That the election was a fraud. That is legalese for "the election was a fraud, and you can't prove that it wasn't a fraud."

Now, there were 60 court cases that were laughed at and tossed, basically, Laura. There was also the election, which the former president lost.

And then there's the very notion, well, you can't prove it wasn't true. Proving a negative. I can't prove that little green men aren't in the control room right now running this show. I can't.

CAMEROTA: I mean, I have a camera.

BERMAN: Because I can't see.

CAMEROTA: I could actually pull up the live camera right now.

BERMAN: But you know -- OK, you can't prove that little green aren't --

CAMEROTA: Haven't taken over our producer's bodies.

BERMAN: Yes, exactly.

But the point is, Laura, you can't disprove an absurd statement. What is that as a legal defense?

COATES: It's not a legal defense. It's actually questioning arithmetic. It's questioning what voting tabulations look like.

And mind you, the lawyers who were actually arguing for Donald Trump when he was still in office were not even professing this and making these claims in the court. The courts kept saying, including some Trump appointees on the bench, tell us what you have. Show me the evidence. There was none.

There was also no evidence, and that was articulated by the former attorney general of the United States, Bill Barr.

[06:25:05] This is an absurd argument. And what it says is, Look, we don't know what happened here. We have no idea.

Which harkens back to what happened in the first impeachment, about, We have no idea what these witnesses may have heard. We have no idea.

Well, there's a good way to actually find out. One, it's through what witnesses are able to confirm, that what he said, and he knew what he said was false. And he was trying to incite in some form or fashion.

And we also have at least three recounts in the state of Georgia, just to name a -- just to name one state where it actually has been proven.

But this is what you call an appeal to the base. This is an appeal to try and just tell people, Look, hey, we know there's a leg to stand on, because this is not a court of law. It's a court of legislation. A political trial, which is very different. And so you can make these sorts of non-sensical arguments.

I hope, however, it will be treated more like a courtroom of law than it is one of public opinion, because if it's public opinion to these lawyers exclusively, then I wonder if they're going to raise the very arguments that they had no basis to raise after the November election. If they do, it will be a circus.

This is probably a compromise of saying, OK, Mr. Trump, we'll do what you'd like.

But this is one of the weakest arguments, because he did not win the election, full stop.

BERMAN: Laura Coates, Jeremy Diamond, thank you both very much.

There's an important new study in terms of the coronavirus. Researchers discovering whether or not the virus can spread after you are vaccinated. Whether or not you are contagious after you receive the first dose of the vaccine. Up until now, there had been no real data on this. Now there is, next.

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