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New Day

Officer Brian Sicknick Lies in Honor at U.S. Capitol He Died Defending; Politico Reports, Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) Leaning Toward Removing Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA) from Education Committee; Congressional Staffers Urge Senate to Convict Trump of Inciting Siege. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired February 03, 2021 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEW DAY: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around. This is New Day.

At this hour, members of Congress are paying respect to Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick, who lost his life protecting them. We have live pictures now, Officer Sicknick lying in honor inside the Capitol where he was killed during the insurrection four weeks ago.

Later today, there will be a private burial for Sicknick at Arlington National Cemetery. President Biden and First Lady Jill Biden paid their respects last night.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN NEW DAY: Also developing this morning, Republicans appear to be at a across roadside about the direction of the party in the post-Trump era. Last night, GOP leadership met to discuss the future of Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, the Georgia Republican who embraces violent rhetoric and QAnon conspiracies.

According to Politico this morning, Greene showed no remorse for extreme positions, which included past support for assassination of top Democratic officials. Politico also reports this morning that House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and his top lieutenants are leaning towards removing Greene from one key House committee, not two. So, is that enough?

The future of powerful House Republican Liz Cheney also on the line after she had the audacity to vote her conscience in favor of impeaching Trump for that Capitol Hill insurrection.

But CNN's Josh Campbell starts us off. He's live in Washington with more on Officer Sicknick lying in honor. Josh?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good morning to you. We take you live inside those images of the United States Capitol Rotunda, where the remains of fallen Officer Brian Sicknick are lying in honor. We have seen members of the Capitol police, his former colleagues, coming in to pay their respects, as well as some members of the National Guard, also lawmakers and staffers. Now, that building remains closed to the general public, that due to that ongoing threat since that Capitol riot, but, again, this honor being afforded to this fallen police officer.

Now, last night, there was a very solemn ceremony as a hearse arrived at the east steps of the Capitol. His remains were carried up into the rotunda, an officer carrying a box with his ashes, another with an American flag, again, lawmakers and police officers coming in to pay their respects.

We got word just before 10:00 P.M. last night that President Biden's motorcade had departed the White House for an unscheduled visit. He arrived with the first lady, Dr. Jill Biden. They approached his remains, placing their hands on their hearts, again, a tribute, no speeches, just a very quiet, solemn tribute from the commander-in- chief.

Now, there was one moment, I want you to take a look at, and we see Biden walking up to two wreaths that were there, and he just shakes his head, seemingly projecting what so many people across the nation think, just how senseless this tragedy was. This officer who had protected that building for over a decade, killed in the line of duty, due to a domestic terrorist attack on January 6th.

CAMEROTA (voice over): Josh, what's the latest on the investigation into Officer Sicknick's death? What do we know?

CAMPBELL (voice over): Sources tell us that officers are struggling right now. Investigators don't seem to have any leads at this moment as far as the person or persons that were responsible for his death. Now, of course, that's somewhat baffling, because there are these mountains of evidence, videos, selfies, the like that was taken on the day of that siege.

But what we're hearing is that they have not yet pinpointed a moment where someone inflicted an injury upon this officer. We know he had collapsed later that evening and then succumbed to his injuries. Our sources also telling CNN that it did not appear that the officer had any blunt force trauma. And so, again, they are still struggling at this hour trying to find the person or persons responsible. We're told that murder investigation continues.

CAMEROTA: Well, Josh, that's a big development. I mean, if there was no blunt force trauma, that's different. Because, obviously, we had heard just leaking out, during these past weeks, that he was hit with something. But you're saying that the investigation may be going in a different direction.

CAMPBELL: That's right. That's what our sources are telling us, no blunt force trauma. There's also talk about whether he had some kind of pre-existing condition. We don't know the answer to that. Obviously, medical privacy issues at play there. But, again, authorities are being very tight-lipped as far as the cause of death, we haven't heard that yet.

But we do know, at least according to federal officials that we're talking, that there is a murder investigation underway, it's just at this point, we have not heard that that has actually borne any fruit, that they have any suspects in mind at this hour, but we're told that they are investigating.

CAMEROTA: Okay, Josh, thank you very much for that update. Obviously, please keep us posted.

We have more breaking political news right now. Politico is reporting that Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy is leaning towards removing QAnon believer Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene from the Education Committee that she serves on.

CNN's Lauren Fox is live on Capitol Hill with more. What do we know?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know this morning, Alisyn, that this meeting last night went for several hours between the minority leader, Kevin McCarthy and Marjorie Taylor Greene. Look, she has become a distraction for the Republican Party.

[07:05:00]

What you heard yesterday from Republican senators was, essentially, she had become a distraction, and as Senator John Thune told me, and not in a good way.

Essentially, this is taking all of the air out of any discussion about issues Republicans have with Joe Biden's agenda, any discussions they want to have about the future of their party, independent of former President Trump. And it's becoming crippling for them.

Look, in this meeting, we do know that there was essentially a lot of options laid out. One of them was that McCarthy was really looking for Marjorie Taylor Greene to show some remorse, to apologize. We know, of course, that she did not do that.

Now, I think one of the questions becomes, what ultimately happens here and will she be removed from her committee assignments? She serves on both the Education and the Budget Committee. We know that Democrats have a meeting planned today in the Rules Committee to advance a resolution that would force a vote on the House floor if McCarthy doesn't take action on his own to actually oust her.

Now, there's some concern that putting this on the floor could set a precedent, where, in the future, if Republicans control the chamber, they could take steps to oust Democratic members from their committees if they made comments that Republicans didn't like. So this is a slippery slope.

But I will tell you that all eyes are going to be on a 4:00 conference meeting here at the Capitol where Republicans are going to be discussing the future of not just Marjorie Taylor Greene, but also Liz Cheney, the number three Republican in leadership who we know voted to impeach former President Trump just a few weeks ago. Alisyn?

BERMAN: All right, I'll take it, Lauren. Lauren Fox in the Capitol, Lauren, please keep us posted. Joining me now, former Republican Congressman Francis Rooney. Congressman, thanks so much for being on with us this morning, always a pleasure to speak with you.

The news in Politico this morning is that House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy is leaning towards removing Marjorie Taylor Greene from the Education Committee. Your reaction to that reporting?

FMR. REP. FRANCIS ROONEY (R-FL): Well, I think that's the least he ought to do. I think this lady is a pariah and, as your people just said, a total distraction from the pursuit of any kind of rebuilding of the Republican Party. And I actually think it's broader than just her.

I'm quite disaffected that McCarthy would have met with Trump. That's like Churchill said about appeasers, they keep feeding the crocodiles and hoping they'll get eaten last.

BERMAN: So, on that point, what message did it send when Kevin McCarthy went to Mar-a-Lago for that picture with the former president?

ROONEY: I think it says, you own us.

BERMAN: How?

ROONEY: And we have to redefine our party if we're going to survive and go back to more traditional Republican values.

BERMAN: The fact that McCarthy is even struggling to figure out how to deal with Marjorie Taylor Greene, the fact that this issue has lingered for as long as it has, what does that tell you about your party?

ROONEY: It shows me the stark contrast between the leadership now and President George H.W. Bush, who didn't waste a second in denouncing David Duke when he ran for office in Louisiana.

BERMAN: Why is it taking more than a second?

ROONEY: That's a really good question. I think a lot of things in the Congress come down to fear of losing your job, getting primaried, fear of President Trump is the only way I can explain some of the pretty much irrational behavior of our Republican leadership the last few years.

BERMAN: Now, I get it. McCarthy has a decision to make. Marjorie Taylor Greene is absolutely responsible for the statements that she has made, knowingly made over the years. But what does it tell you that she was elected in the first place?

She didn't trick the people in her district to vote for her. They knew what they were getting.

ROONEY: No. Just look at what Liz is encountering out in Wyoming now. This Trump fanaticism, which I encountered when I was in office, is beyond any kind of precedent in Republican politics. And she would probably get re-elected again down there, but that doesn't mean that the Republican leadership doesn't need to deal with her.

BERMAN: But, again, it's not just dealing with her. You also need to deal with a significant part of your voting group, don't you?

ROONEY: Yes, we do. And that gets to the bigger question, again. I think we need to be moving forward on redefining what we stand for. This party was around a long time and represented limited government, free enterprise, business solutions, private enterprise solutions, and a strong foreign policy and we seem to have lost a lot of that in the recent years. And somehow, if we can't move forward in a positive manner, I think we're kind of like a dodo bird here.

BERMAN: I keep on saying, your party, your party. Congressman Rooney, is this party still your party?

ROONEY: No, I'm not sure that the party of Trump is my party at all. I'm for the traditional Republican values that I think have built a strong country and have helped us build a strong multi-national network of security since World War II, and all of that's been undermined in the last four years.

[07:10:04]

BERMAN: You've talked about House Conference Chair Liz Cheney, the third-ranking Republican in the House of Representatives. There will be a meeting in the caucus later today to decide her fate. Her crime in the eyes of some Republicans is voting to impeach the former president of the United States.

You know, it's a real possibility. I don't know how today will play out, Congressman. But it's a real possibility at the end of today, Marjorie Taylor Greene will still be in Congress with committee assignments and Liz Cheney will have lost her job in House leadership. So what will it tell you if Liz Cheney is the one to suffer as a result of everything we have seen in the last month?

ROONEY: That would be a thoroughly abhorrent result and I hope it doesn't happen. And I applaud Liz for speaking out. I would have been right there with her were I still in office. I almost voted to impeach him the first time, got real close to it. I spent a lot of time with the speaker discussing it. But you just don't purge someone for a difference of opinion, okay?

We've got to be a broad -- we've got to cast a wide net and have a broad tent in our party if we're going to be successful. And we used to be much more tolerant of different ideas than we appear to be right now.

BERMAN: Well, how broad is that tent, right? Because can that tent include both someone like Liz Cheney or Mitt Romney and then also Marjorie Taylor Greene?

ROONEY: Well, it certainly should be able to. Remember William Buckley and the conservatives that purged the John Birch Society out of the Republican Party. Remember the days when there was the Nelson Rockefeller, Harold Stassen wing and then there was the Barry Goldwater wing, and somehow or another, they managed to reconcile themselves and stay focused on the most fundamental principles on which they agreed, which got us Ronald Reagan.

BERMAN: Yes, I was only asking that. Mitt Romney says we need to have a big tent, but a tent doesn't need to include conservatives and kooks. The tent doesn't need to be that big, according to Mitt Romney.

Can I ask one more question, Congressman? Because I don't think --

ROONEY: Sure, but if I might add on that, conservatives are one thing. This Greene lady is a kook. She is a negative influence on everything.

BERMAN: And about conservatism, Congressman, I think one of the things that people followed your career, five, ten years ago, no one on earth would have ever questioned your conservative credentials. Your credentials as a Republican with traditional Republican beliefs, I think, are unquestioned. So in that vein, I am curious how you think President Biden is doing so far in his job?

ROONEY: I think he's off to a great start. I like a lot of his appointments, certainly, Secretary of State Blinken, who I have met before when I was doing things in the department. I think he's tried to reach out to Republicans. We'll see where that goes. It may not go as far as some of us may like, but he's certainly exuded an atmosphere of presidential calm and leadership. And we sadly need that right now.

BERMAN: Congressman Francis Rooney, I do appreciate you coming on this morning, getting up early talking to us. Your insight is valuable -- invaluable in this time. Thank you, sir.

ROONEY: John, thanks for having me on.

BERMAN: So, a new letter just released from hundreds of congressional staffers detailing their harrowing experience during the Capitol siege. What effect will that have on the impeachment trial, next.

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[07:15:00]

CAMEROTA: The second impeachment trial of former President Trump will begin next week. This morning, for the first time, we're hearing the accounts of hundreds of congressional staff members who were trapped inside the Capitol on the day of the riot. They urged the Senate to convict Donald Trump, writing, quote, on January 6th, the former president broke America's 230-year legacy of the peaceful transition of power when he incited a mob to disrupt the counting of Electoral College votes. The use of violence and lies to overturn an election is not worthy of debate. Either you stand with the republic or you stand against it, end quote.

Joining us now, CNN's Senior Legal Analyst Laura Coates and CNN Political Analyst David Gregory. Laura, how much of a role in this trial will the firsthand accounts of the people who lived through it play? So in other words, I know that we haven't heard yet if they're actually calling live witnesses, but maybe they don't have to if they have written accounts like this.

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: These are really important, Alisyn, because, remember, we all watched on television, as it unfolded on January 6th. And so we had one vantage point. And it makes it seems as though we are all privy to all of the information. But these staffers were inside. They were in the rooms where it happened. They had the fear. It was them who was directly imperiled.

And they were able to see all the things that the cameras did not pick up, all of the moments, all of the comments that were being made, statements we possibly could not hear and the follow-up of it. Were they frantically trying to call and get backup? Were their leaders, were their officials safe, were they themselves safe?

This is going to be very important in developing the case because I think one of the things that Trump's lawyers have said, we're going to stipulate to the videos. Fine, we all know what happened. Well, the truth is, Alisyn, we don't know the extent of what happened. And the more information we have, the better the case becomes to show how imperiled a branch of government was, how imperiled Americans were because of a big lie.

BERMAN: The reporting though is that we do think there are any Republican staffers who signed on.

CAMEROTA: I can't tell. I'm just reading through it right now. I can't tell if Republican congressional staffers have signed on that.

BERMAN: It's unclear at this point whether there are any Republicans. It may just be all Democrats, which, in and of itself, maybe revealing, David.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. I mean, this is the problem. I think what we're talking about witnesses. We're talking about how compelling these kinds of pleas will be from people who are inside the building. This is coming from a desire to actually have a legal proceeding against the president. And that's not what we have. We have a political proceeding. And it's not going to prevail.

By all accounts, it's not going to prevail other than the fact that he is no longer in office, other than the fact that it most likely, his actions cost the Republicans control of the Senate and two Georgia Senate seats, and that you have a Republican leader in the country in Mitch McConnell, who has sent out signals that perhaps the president should be convicted, that the party ought to try to expunge him from their political life.

[07:20:24]

But it's not having that impact.

So I think that's the ultimate disappointment, is that this is not a legal proceeding, which was and is available to the Department of Justice, but doesn't look like it's going to happen. This is a political proceeding and we appear to know the outcome already.

CAMEROTA: So here is what we are hearing from the Trump impeachment defense team. This is part of their argument, okay, Laura? So this is where they try to argue, quote, insufficient evidence exists, upon which a reasonable jurist could conclude that the 45th president's statements were accurate or not. And he therefore denies that they were false. What? What are they talking about? Bill Barr had enough evidence.

COATES: I don't know because I only have one moon on my planet. So I'm not sure what happened there, Alisyn, when people make those comments about what we don't know.

And I'm sorry to cut you off. The idea here that we don't know whether the president's statements were accurate, surrounding what has been coined the big lie is a very absurd statement to make, but it's playing to the point that David is speaking about, isn't it, Alisyn, the idea that you're talking about a court of law that you have to deal and operate within the realm of facts.

If you're talking about political trials and you're talking about the idea of rhetoric and the idea of pinning things against a wall, trying to have some semblance of truth without actually having truth. And here you don't even have either.

And so one point I would want to say one thing to David's point, because I know that the concern for a lot of people, this is an exercise in futility, because we know in America, our favorite pastime is not really baseball, it really is litigation.

So there is this assumption that there's a binary choice of what has to happen, conviction or acquittal. But also the process here is important. And the idea of process of understanding what exactly happened, have legislative branch assert themselves as a coequal branch, not being able to be vulnerable when somebody wants to retain power in another branch and was able to imperil the other. We start thinking about the process politically of why impeachment is important, not just how it's viewed through the criminal context lens.

BERMAN: David?

GREGORY: Yes. I mean, I agree with that and I would add on to what Laura is saying that, what do you do, right? We can't have leaders questioning our elections. If our elections are not trustworthy in this country, then we really have a problem as a democracy. That's the tension I struggle with. That fact you can haven't one branch of government launching an attack literally and figuratively on another branch of government.

It also matters how other democracies in the world view the United States as we still seek to project influence and in a lot of cases our power around the globe. These things really matter.

So the question is, what do you do? I mean, you do have other political avenues. You could pursue a censure, which would be just as symbolic as the likely outcome here.

So the process matters but it also matters how it's being received. As much as we're going to learn new details, new harrowing details, I think people know what they know, if they bore witness to what happened. And they're unlikely to be swayed by how the politicians argue about it. And it will be something of a side show, frankly, for a lot of people, if they're paying attention, as to whether there's even a constitutional purview here for the Senate to be having this trial, which is obviously an area that the president is pursuing in his defense.

BERMAN: So, Laura, in addition to the constitutional defense, to which the House manager says, there's no January exception to impeachment, you can't just say, because the president is a few weeks, maybe a few months or even longer, who knows how long this process could take, he or she is exempt from being impeached. It's hard to imagine the framers would ever intend to that.

The other side of the defense coming from the former president is the First Amendment, saying he had a First Amendment right to say whatever he wanted to say. Let me just read a little bit of that. The 45th president exercised his First Amendment right under the Constitution to express his belief that the election results were suspect.

Now, again, I think this is an important distinction between what happens in a court of law and what happens in an impeachment trial. The standards are vastly different. There are things that a president might say that are impeachable, impeachable, but are legally within free speech, correct?

COATES: That's correct, there are some primers out there. But, of course, notice the words that they said, that he is entitled to essentially profess his beliefs. Well, he wasn't just saying his views on the election, he went beyond that.

[07:25:04]

You do have a First Amendment right to protected speech. The question is whether his statements went beyond the normally characterized protected speech. And we have a very clear precedential value that although it's not in the criminal context, the factual predicate and the legal predicate really is the same. And that is if you've incited violence, if you have intended for violence to occur, if you have called for the action to come at a temporal place, it's real in time, not an indefinite point, and you set it in the context where violence was foreseeable, the Supreme Court has already said, look, that is no longer protected speech.

That's the hurdle, that's the hill they'll have to climb. And although it's not a criminal proceeding or one that would find its way before an appellate court and it's political in nature, they're going to have to have the underlying foundation met nonetheless.

And so far, if you compare the two briefs, one, the House impeachment managers have a very clear understanding of protected speech having limitations and the others saying, well, this is just hyperbole, political rhetoric that everyone else does. No, everyone has not engaged in this and an insurrection has not occurred every time somebody has offered their opinion.

It happened that day, for a particular reason, and a unique actor was in a position to be able to quell the unrest and we have to see whether he knew he did it, whether he intended to and whether he failed to actually call back the insurrectionists, as he was in a unique position to do.

CAMEROTA: I mean, and, again, if you just listen to the mob, they heard the order loud and clear. Before any of them were arrested, they explained why they were there and who sent them there.

Laura and David, thank you both very much.

Okay, so could a new vaccine not only prevent sickness but also slow the spread of coronavirus? We discuss the new study just out and what it means for all of us.

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