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New Day
Johnson & Johnson Asks FDA To Authorize Its One-Dose Vaccine; Anti-Vaxxers Use "Stop The Steal" Crusade To Advance Conspiracies; Smartmatic Files $2.7 Billion Lawsuit Against Fox New, Rudy Giuliani. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired February 05, 2021 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:30:00]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, great to have you here with us this morning.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I couldn't answer the questions, I just wanted to ask them.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: That's better. That's smart -- smart.
BERMAN: It's better if you have the answers going in. It's perfect for you because you have all the answers already.
The J&J vaccine emergency use authorization -- what will this change for our country as we battle this pandemic?
GUPTA: Well, I mean, there could be 100 million one-dose vaccines that essentially start to roll out -- excuse me -- within three weeks or so -- maybe at the beginning of March if you look at the regulatory process for Pfizer and Moderna. Moderna's been a little bit faster than Pfizer's, but two to three weeks.
I talked to the Johnson & Johnson guys right after they announced their phase-three data and they -- you know, they've been manufacturing this vaccine for some time -- at risk, as they call it. Because they didn't know, obviously, and they still don't know if it's going to be authorized. The point is they have several million doses available, ready to go, just like Moderna and Pfizer did, and they said they'll start shipping the day after the emergency use authorization is granted, if it is.
So I think it will make a big difference. And this is, as we've talked about, one dose, normal refrigeration, can get out to more places. And they say by June they could have 100 million of these doses out there.
CAMEROTA: But Sanjay, it does have a lower efficacy rate than the other vaccines that we're familiar with. I think it has a 72 percent effective rate against moderate and severe sickness, 85 percent against severe.
And so that leads me to a viewer question. So, Amy, from California, wanted to know have the experts considered
immunizing 20 to 49-year-olds -- the so-called super spreads -- with the J&J vaccine once it's approved? Since they tend to have less severe effects from COVID, wouldn't it make sense to use this one on them to further minimize spread, saving the more effective vaccines for older adults and those with underlying health conditions?
I think this is a great question. Like, is this for a different demographic?
GUPTA: Right, this is a great question. I think there's two points.
First of all, it's not entirely clear with these vaccines that they actually reduce infection. I know it surprises a lot of people but when you look at how these vaccines are studied, what they were really looking for ways to try and determine do they reduce the likelihood of someone becoming symptomatic or sick.
And as you point out, I mean, all these vaccines are really effective, especially at preventing severe illness. I mean, nobody got hospitalized or died in that Johnson & Johnson vaccine -- you know, 85 percent protective against severe illness. So I think that's a really important point.
I think the second thing, and this is a little bit more nuanced but also important, is that the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, when it was trialed, that happened at a different time -- it was later in this pandemic -- and it happened in different places -- South Africa, Brazil, places where we know these variants have been spreading.
The point is this. If you were to go and take the Moderna or the Pfizer vaccines and say OK, let's truly put them head-to-head -- let's trial them at the same time in the same places as the Johnson & Johnson vaccine was trialed -- how would it have done then? It may have been very similar to this.
So when we say 95 percent effective with the Pfizer vaccine compared to 85 percent effective for the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, I don't know that you can say that is a direct head-to-head comparison because you are essentially testing it against a sort of different disease. A pandemic that was more widespread and had more mutations.
They're both -- they're all really good vaccines. I think you've got to inoculate people who are at the greatest risk of dying, of getting sick, of being hospitalized. That's who needs to get inoculated first. Because what will happen is even if you see case numbers continues to go up, death rates -- percentage of those cases of deaths will go down.
CAMEROTA: That would be so wonderful. But on that specific point from Amy, there's not some vaccine being held for some demographic and some vaccine that would be held for a different demographic. It's not going to work that way.
GUPTA: Not yet. I mean, that could be the case later on. You know, even with flu vaccine they may have different -- they come up with different formulations, different ways of administering the vaccine. Better for children versus adults. We'll see, but not right now.
I mean, these vaccines, especially given that the demand is so much greater than the supply -- the idea of starting to parse it out that way. We'll see what the CDC says but I doubt that will be the way that they go at this.
BERMAN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, we're going to have you back on later. Thanks so much for being with us.
GUPTA: OK, you got it.
BERMAN: We want to remember some of the nearly 456,000 Americans lost to coronavirus.
Dexter De Los Santos was a security officer in the Los Angeles Police Department for more than eight years. He was the third LAPD employee to die of the virus within one week, the eighth overall. The department offered the families of all the officers its heartfelt thought and prayers.
Jeffrey Kaplan taught math and science at Bishop Brady Catholic High School in Concord, New Hampshire. The school honored him for a life committed to others. Classes were canceled Monday, with students, parents, alumni, and staff invited to come and reflect on Mr. Kaplan.
[07:35:12]
Makenzie Gongora was just nine years old. The San Antonia fourth- grader is the daughter of an Army National Guardsman. She died unexpectedly just days after testing positive. Her family wants to spread awareness about the virus can affect children. Oh, look at that face.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAMEROTA: On January sixth, a pro-Trump mob stormed the U.S. Capitol. At the same time, another rally nearby was peddling election fraud conspiracies and anti-vaccine messaging.
CNN's Drew Griffin is live in Atlanta with more. What have you learned, Drew?
[07:40:02]
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, it's one of the stranger mergers and proof that once you buy into one conspiracy, they're all fair game. This, on January sixth, the merger of the Stop the Steal folks with the anti-vaccine hucksters.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONALD TRUMP, THEN-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you all for being here. This is incredible. GRIFFIN (voice-over): On January sixth on a separate stage, yet very much part of the election protests, this micro rally had a different focus. These are the anti-vaxxers.
CHARLENE BOLLINGER, PLANNED JANUARY SIXTH HEALTH FREEDOM RALLY: The forced COVID vaccine is such a scam.
DEL BIGTREE, SPEAKER, HEALTH FREEDOM RALLY: Innocent people are being lined up, walking to their potential death.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): Their event, part pandemic denial, part Stop the Steal, part prayer service for those who were participating in the Capitol storm.
BOLLINGER: We pray for the patriots that are there now, inside. They're trying to get inside that Capitol. Lord, use these people to eradicate this evil, these swamp creatures, this cesspool of filth and waste.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): A CNN review finds the people involved in this micro rally are linking the anti-government Stop the Steal messaging to their anti-vaccine alternative health industry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Roger Stone.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): Some are directly connected to the disinformation network of Roger Stone. They namedropped Stop the Steal organizer Ali Alexander, and are peddling the same type of conspiracy- linked health products as Alex Jones, essentially turning conspiracy into business.
BOLLINGER: This is war between good and evil.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): Anti-vaccine advocate Charlene Bollinger, who planned the rally along with her husband Ty, introduced speaker after speaker, stopping occasionally to gleefully report what was happening in the Capitol about a block away. Her husband left the rally to join in.
BOLLINGER: I asked him are you at the Capitol and he said outside it. The Capitol has been stormed by patriots. We're here for this reason. We are winning.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): Also speaking, Mikkie Willis, whose discredited video "Plandemic" was viewed millions of times before being removed from YouTube.
MIKKIE WILLIS, DIRECTOR, "PLANDEMIC": This is psychological warfare.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): Invited to speak, Dr. Simone Gold, the anti- vaxxer who seeks donations to push her conspiracies. She became infamous with a stunt news conference at the Supreme Court last summer, appearing with other doctors, including one who has claimed alien DNA is being put in medicine.
This is what Gold said at a MAGA rally January fifth. DR. SIMONE GOLD, FOUNDER, AMERICA'S FRONTLINE DOCTORS: If you don't want to take an experimental biological agent deceptively named a vaccine, you must not allow yourselves to be coerced.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): The next day, Gold went inside the Capitol and was later arrested. Through her organization, Gold tells CNN she didn't participate in any violence or vandalism and rebuked such activity.
Conspiracism is the special sauce that links them all together, according to extremism expert Imran Ahmed, who co-wrote a study about the anti-vax movement and says making money is at the heart of it all.
IMRAN AHMED, CEO, CENTER FOR COUNTERING DIGITAL HATE: These are snake oil salesmen. They're the oldest kind of liar and seller of deceit, of misinformation.
GRIFFIN (on camera): And let's just be very clear. For the money, for the profit.
AMHED: Well, snake oil salesmen need to turn a profit.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): That is apparent in the politics and business empire of rally organizers Ty and Charlene Bollinger.
BOLLINGER: Hello, again. It's Ty and Charlene.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): They have their own political action committee and run two businesses centered on conspiracies about cancer and vaccines. Their social media pages, altogether, have more than a million followers.
BOLLINGER: Have you all heard about the truth about cancer or the truth about vaccines? Yes!
GRIFFIN (voice-over): The Bollingers live on 13 acres in this 7,600 square foot, $1.5 million mansion in rural Tennessee, once featured on a realtor Web site.
Their cancer and vaccine Web sites are businesses marketing their video series that cost up to $500, an air purifier that's more than $300, body cleanses, and other unproven health products. Disclaimers warn nothing presented is intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, and anything purchased through their sites mean the Bollingers will be paid in some way.
While they're not camera-shy --
BOLLINGER: This is FrankenScience. We've got to stop it.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): -- the Bollingers did not respond to multiple requests for comment from CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CAMEROTA: Oh my God, Drew. I shudder to think how many brain cells you had to lose reporting this story for us. The kookapalooza that you just put together there, I don't think we knew that. I mean, I don't think -- none of us knew that all of that morass of nuttiness was happening simultaneously.
GRIFFIN: Yes, and the real danger is people that believe this may not get a lifesaving vaccine because of it. That is the real problem here. And they don't even realize that all of this is based on the fact that somebody wants to profit off of a conspiracy theory.
[07:45:03]
BERMAN: I will tell you, I knew. This is something that I've been watching for some time because one of the unanswered questions to me -- actually, I think there is an answer.
One of the most fascinating developments over the last few months is how the former president who touted how hard he worked to get a vaccine -- once they were approved and found to be safe, hasn't done a thing to personally promote people taking them. The former president isn't out there saying everyone, go get vaccinated right away. He didn't go on camera getting vaccinated himself.
Why? Why? Ask yourself why. It's because he knows that a huge part of his support comes from people like this in the piece you just did, Drew. Really interesting to see that.
GRIFFIN: Good point.
CAMEROTA: Drew, thank you --
GRIFFIN: Thanks.
CAMEROTA: -- very much. We really appreciate all of your investigative pieces.
Now to this. It leads directly to this next story. Fox News Channel and some of its most prominent hosts, as well as Rudy Giuliani, are facing a $2.7 billion defamation lawsuit. Will this case help put a stop to the spread of disinformation? Eli Honig joins us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:50:18]
CAMEROTA: Lies about election fraud and voting machines being rigged could end up costing the Fox News Channel and some of its hosts billions of dollars.
Smartmatic filed a massive $2.7 billion lawsuit against FNC, some of the network's stars, and pro-Trump attorneys Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell. The suit claims the parties waged a quote "disinformation campaign that jeopardized the company's very survival."
Their lawsuit begins with this line. Quote, "The Earth is round. Two plus two equals four. Joe Biden and Kamala Harris won the 2020 election. The election was not stolen, rigged, or fixed. These are facts."
Joining us now is CNN legal analyst Elie Honig. He's a former federal prosecutor.
Elie, before we get to the substance of the lawsuit, I just want to note the jaw-dropping price tag, OK, and what it means -- the $2.7 billion. And can you just help me understand -- is this something that the FNC hosts would have to pay themselves? I mean, Lou Dobbs is being sued, Jeanine Pirro, Maria Bartiromo, Rudy Giuliani, as we've said, and Fox News Channel.
Who is going to pay this? If Smartmatic wins, who pays this figure?
ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR (via Cisco Webex): So, Alisyn, first of all, I think sometimes when people see enormous figures like this in a lawsuit brought against high-profile figures, there's this tendency to say oh, this must just be a stunt, this must just be for P.R. Not at all the case here. This is a legitimate lawsuit with real teeth.
Now, who pays that if they win, ultimately? The entire -- well, first of all, they have to prove. Smartmatic, as the plaintiff, has to prove their amount of damages. That's, of course, the highest number they could possibly calculate. Whatever the number comes out to be, that then gets split up among the various defendants according to their percentage, essentially, of blame.
So they don't all have to pay that individually. But look, there could be a significant size settlement or verdict here, for sure.
BERMAN: So, Elie, what specifically does Smartmatic need to prove in order to win, and how high of a bar is it?
HONIG: Two things, John.
First of all, that the statements made by Fox News Channel and its anchors were, in fact, false. That should be fairly easy to prove. I mean, just look at what the FBI has said, what DHS has said, what 60- some courts across the country have said.
And second of all, that the defendants either knew it was false or -- this is important -- were reckless about its falsity. So it's not a defense for anyone to say yes, but Rudy really believed what he was saying, but Maria Bartiromo really believed what she was saying. That's not good enough. If they were reckless, if they turned a blind eye to what was obvious to everyone, that's enough to hit them with a verdict.
So that's why this is really sort of defamation 101. This is why defamation law exists to ensure accountability.
CAMEROTA: I want to play for you and our viewers, Elie, what FNC tried to do to cover their butts, OK? So once they got wind that there could be some sort of legal action brewing, here is the montage that they played on some programs that I guess they thought would answer this. HONIG: Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EDDIE PEREZ, DIRECTOR, OSET INSTITUTE OF TECH DEVELOPMENT: I have not seen any evidence that Smartmatic software was used to delete, change, alter anything related to vote tabulation.
I'm not aware of any direct connection between George Soros and Smartmatic.
I'm not aware of any evidence that Smartmatic is sending U.S. votes to be tabulated in foreign countries. It is my understanding that outside of one customer in Los Angeles County, Smartmatic has no presence in the voting technology marketplace in the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: Please note, Elie, none of those are Fox hosts. That wasn't a Fox host saying all of that. So does that solve the problem?
HONIG: No, Alisyn. It's good to see the truth come out at some point but file that one under too little, too late.
Under the law, you cannot un-defame somebody. Once you've already rung that bell it's out there. And that especially applies in sort of the modern world where every time Fox said these alleged lies about Smartmatic and other voting companies, millions of people were watching. And then you multiply that by social media -- by the tweets, by the re-tweets -- you can't then go hire some outside contractor to come in and record some sort of retraction and undo it. That's just not how the law works.
BERMAN: Well, can you do it prophylactically? Can you take a live vaccine, which is what WABC radio, I think tried to do with Rudy Giuliani? It's like a truth condom, Elie. Let's listen to what the radio station said before Giuliani's show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER 1: The views, assumptions, and opinions expressed by former U.S. attorney, former attorney to the President of the United States, and New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, his guests, and callers on his program are strictly their own and do not necessarily represent the opinions, beliefs, or policies of WABC radio.
[07:55:12]
ANNOUNCER 2: Now, it's former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani on New York's talk radio 77 WABC.
RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY: I would have thought they would have told me about that before just doing what they just did. Rather insulting. And gives you a sense of how far this free speech thing has gone. They've got to warn you about me?
I also think putting it on without telling me, not the right thing to do -- not the right thing to do at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: They've got to warn you about me? Apparently, yes, Elie -- so why?
HONIG: Yes, Rudy's feelings are so hurt there. That is an industrial- grade disclaimer.
But look, they are obviously afraid of what Rudy Giuliani may do and may say, and rightly so.
I have to say this. The first word -- the first sentence in that disclaimer, they say former U.S. attorney. Rudy Giuliani was a U.S. attorney in the 80s for the Southern District of New York where I worked a couple of decades later.
When I worked there he was a point of pride. He was somebody we looked up to, admired. He had had a wonderful career. Now I think I can speak on behalf of the majority of SDNY alums, he's a disgrace. He's a laughing stock.
And you know what? It's accountability time for Rudy now because I think that Rudy, like a lot of Donald Trump's most ardent worshipers, has seen what Donald Trump has done over the last four years -- lied over and over again, gotten away with it, and thought well, why can't I do the same. Well, guess what? Now it's consequence time.
CAMEROTA: Elie Honig, we will see what happens. I know you'll follow this closely for us. Thanks for all the information.
HONIG: For sure. Thanks, Alisyn.
BERMAN: All right.
Two days until the Super Bowl and Jimmy Kimmel kicked off the weekend with an all-Tom Brady edition of mean tweets.
CAMEROTA: Dreamy.
BERMAN: Here are some highlights.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM BRADY, QUARTERBACK, TAMPA BAY BUCCANEERS (Reading Mean Tweets): "Tom Brady seems like the kind of man who doesn't know how to use a wrench." That's kind of true.
"Hi, I'm Tom Brady and I'm a cry baby and I have a butthole in my chin." Butthole?
"Can we be real for a moment? Is there really anyone you'd rather see dropped in a vat of rendered bacon fat than Tom Brady?"
"Tom Brady, you suck booty. You ugly, you suck. You throw like a fat lady with a flabby arm and a little girl, butt face. #TomBrady #Suck." You suck.
"I hate Tom Brady so much but I have no legit reason to. He's a nice guy, but I hope they break his legs."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: That has to hurt you. That has to hurt seeing him --
BERMAN: What hurts --
CAMEROTA: -- on the receiving end of mean tweets.
BERMAN: But see how he handled it? No -- with such grace and such charm. Somehow he emerges from it even more adorable.
CAMEROTA: Such humility --
BERMAN: I know.
CAMEROTA: -- which he's known for.
BERMAN: He actually is. He is.
Frank Bruni has got a great column -- and Frank's no Patriots fan -- a great column in "The New York -- he finally gave in and said Tom Brady, you just have to -- you know, you have to like him. You have to.
CAMEROTA: Do you?
BERMAN: Yes. Did you hear that?
CAMEROTA: I did, and that was cute. I must say that was cute.
John -- I mean, this weekend, my family is Kansas City Chiefs.
BERMAN: Yes.
CAMEROTA: It's going to be Battle Royale.
BERMAN: The Chiefs are a better team. I just get to watch Tom Brady. I mean, what is it -- I don't care if they win, I just get to watch.
CAMEROTA: I just get to each nachos.
BERMAN: NEW DAY continues right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The resolution is adopted.
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): I was allowed to believe things that weren't true and I would ask questions about them. And that is absolutely what I regret.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What she said was before she was a member of Congress. It's unprecedented what the Democrats have done here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There should be a very, very high bar for removing someone from committees, but this was not a hard call.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They've requested the president's testimony. Apparently, he is refusing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They could issue a subpoena for the president. He'll go to court. He'll tie that up in knots.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In his four years in office, Donald Trump never once testified under oath. And now I think they're showing that Donald Trump is not willing to back up his bluster.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.
CAMEROTA: And good morning, everyone. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY.
And Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene has been stripped of her committee assignments. She was rebuked Thursday night for supporting violent rhetoric and peddling dangerous conspiracy theories.
But, the overwhelming majority of House Republicans voted not to remove her. One hundred ninety-nine Republicans were apparently OK with her extremist violent rhetoric that she has never apologized for. Only 11 Republicans sided with the Democrats to remove her.
And just a reminder, Greene questioned the 9/11 attacks. She spread anti-Semitic conspiracies. She supported executing Democrats. And she harassed school shooting survivors. David Hogg, one of them will join us shortly.
Finally, on Thursday, Greene admitted.
