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Donald Trump Faces Democrat-Controlled Senate In Unprecedented Second Impeachment Trial; GOP Tries To Find Its Footing After Intense Week Of Infighting; More Than 39 Million Vaccine Doses Administered In The U.S. According To The CDC; Biden: Days Of U.S. "Rolling Over" To Russia Are Over; Biden Under Pressure To Sanction Russia Over Navalny Poisoning. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired February 06, 2021 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:12]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will Stop the Steal.

DAVID SCHOEN, DONALD TRUMP'S IMPEACHMENT DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Read the words of his speech, it calls for peacefulness. This has nothing to do with President Trump.

TRUMP: If you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore -- anymore.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trump wasn't just whining about the election, he was trying to get people to do things to overturn the election.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald John Trump thus warrants impeachment and trial, removal from office and disqualification.

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): The party is his, it doesn't belong to anybody else. This impeachment trial that's going to happen next week is a circus.

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): He knew that he could invite those supporters, inflame them and incite them to go to the Capitol.

SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): I'm very worried about going through this trial and having the punchline at the end being Trump acquitted again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Saturday.

And just days before the unprecedented second impeachment trial of former President Donald Trump, there is new video emerging tonight for moments after the attack on the U.S. Capitol and it underscores how some of the rioters were taking their cues directly from Trump.

We have to warn you that what you're about to watch contains strong language.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: How did you get out?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did I get out of what?

QUESTION: How did you get out?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Out of the Senate?

QUESTION: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops walked out with me.

QUESTION: They just let you go?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

QUESTION: What's your message everybody now? Like what are you yelling now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, Donald Trump asked everybody to go home. He just put out a tweet. It's a minute long. He asked everybody to go home.

QUESTION: Why do you think so?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because we won the fucking day. We fucking won.

QUESTION: How did we win?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We won by saying a message to the senators and the congressmen. We won by sending a message to Pence, okay, that if they don't do as their oath to do, if they don't uphold the Constitution then we will remove them from office, one way or another?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This guy who is recording, he is not on our side.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. You're trying to --

QUESTION: I thought you assumed that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am fine with being recorded.

QUESTION: Okay, cool. Anything else?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All I can say is, we won the fucking day. Donald Trump is still our President.

QUESTION: I do have one more question. There's a lot of people that doubt that you were just able to just go in there and come out. Like what do you have to say to them -- that doubt you just walked out?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE Well, a lot of people doubted a lot of prophets, saints and sages, a lot of people doubted Christ, you know. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So that was Jacob Chansley, the so-called QAnon Shaman after leaving the Capitol. Here is his mug shot.

He was put behind bars and he was recently switched jails so that he could eat organic food. Chansley's lawyer has argued that his client was following Trump's invitation to march to the Capitol.

CNN Donie O'Sullivan joins me with more. So Donie, where did this video come from?

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN BUSINESS REPORTER: Hey, Pam. Yes, this video was actually posted to Parler, which is that social media platform, which touted free speech, which saw a lot of hate, and a lot of election misinformation. Of course, the platform is temporarily shut down, it's not able to get online.

But on the day of the insurrection, many, many of the people who were in Washington that day, the Trump protesters, people who went on to become part of the insurrection mob, they were posting videos on Parler.

Now before Parler got taken offline, a computer programmer was able to download all of those videos publicly. There are thousands of them, and this is just one of these organizations like ProPublica have documented hundreds of these videos, but there are thousands of them out there.

And very likely, you know, investigators as part of both the F.B.I. investigation into this, and those on Capitol Hill are probably combing through those videos.

BROWN: And the CNN captured footage of Chansley outside Trump's rally in Dalton, Georgia 48 hours before the insurrection. What did you learn from that?

O'SULLIVAN: Yes, that's right. So this is really where this sort of fits into the bigger picture here. Right? I was actually attending QAnon events and Trump rallies all along in the weeks leading up to the eventual insurrection.

And I saw Chansley, the QAnon Shaman, the guy you saw in that video there, I saw him at a QAnon Convention in Arizona just two weeks before the election, and that actually was also two nights after Trump refused to condemn, in fact, he praised QAnon followers in an NBC Town Hall with Savannah Guthrie.

And in that room, Chansley, as part of that conference, they cheered that and then we were in Dalton, Georgia 48 hours before the insurrection, of course, on the eve of the Senate runoff elections, and we also saw Chansley outside of the Trump rally.

[18:05:12]

O'SULLIVAN: So you could see there, and you can see from this video, of course, that this was clearly a man who was, you know, idolized Trump and was taking his cues from Trump, and that is, of course now what he is trying to argue, in at least his public defense.

BROWN: Taking his cues from Trump. So I want to go back to this QAnon conference that you were in in Arizona, we have this video of you sitting there. Tell us a little bit more about that. How did you get into this? Did they know you were there as a CNN reporter? How did it all come together?

O'SULLIVAN: Yes, this was an event that was actually officially closed to media, but anybody was able to attend, so I went along. They didn't realize that they had a CNN reporter in their midst.

I was one of the very, very few people in there wearing a mask. And, you know, just as I guess, sort of put this in perspective, because, you know, this was purely a movement that was organized -- it was organized enough to have probably about a hundred people show up to this event in a conference room in Arizona two weeks before the election, and people there were convinced that Trump was going to win. They said if Trump doesn't win in a landslide, it is absolute proof of fraud.

BROWN: All right, Donie O'Sullivan, thank you. And on that note, Donie, stay with me because next hour, I've got an inside look at former President Trump's big election lie. How did it happen? How did it fuel the attack on the Capitol and how it is behind a second impeachment trial?

And meantime, the clock is counting down to that unprecedented second impeachment trial for Trump. CNN's Jessica Dean has the latest from Capitol Hill.

Jessica, there are still many key questions unanswered before Tuesday. Right?

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right, Pam. And that's the striking thing about it. Here we are Saturday evening, we're now on the precipice of this second impeachment trial for former President Donald Trump and we still have a lot of unanswered questions at this hour.

Namely -- just to name a few, we don't know how long this trial is going to last at this point. We are being told by our sources that perhaps two weeks is the timeline for this trial, much shorter than former President Trump's original impeachment trial, but also that Senate Democrats are eager to go ahead and turn their attention toward President Biden's agenda.

They want to get that COVID Relief Bill through, and the longer that impeachment trial goes on, the harder it is to do. So they can't do both of those things at the same time.

So length is one thing we're waiting to know more about. We also don't know at this point, if they will be calling witnesses. This, of course, is an incredibly unique situation for a number of reasons. But one of them being that the 100 senators who will also be acting as

jurors in this are in the unique position that they were also witnesses to the January 6 insurrection here at the U.S. Capitol. So they are in a very particular situation in that sense.

We also know that the house impeachment managers did call on former President Trump to testify; he said, he would not, and there is not right now an appetite for a subpoena for former President Trump.

In fact, we are told that the house impeachment managers plan to argue that his refusal to testify actually underscores his guilt, and that he is directly responsible for what happened here at the Capitol on January 6th.

And one more thing that we're learning, Pam, is that we do know that the impeachment managers plan to make their case using an incredible amount of video and other evidence to show and link exactly what happened on that day. Again, trying to prove that point that former President Trump is only and solely responsible for what happened here on January 6.

So again, we look ahead to see exactly how all of these pieces will unfold. Remember, they're going to need two-thirds of the senators to get a conviction. That means 17 Republicans would have to vote to convict. Right now, that looks like a very unlikely prospect, Pam, considering that just last week, 45 of 50 senators voted to say that this is an unconstitutional impeachment trial because he is now the former President -- Pam.

BROWN: It's going to be a busy week ahead. Jessica Dean, thank you very much for the latest there from Capitol Hill.

And while Republicans get ready for the impeachment trial next week, the G.O.P. is also busy trying to stop the fighting in its own ranks.

Longtime conspiracy theory advocate, Marjorie Taylor Greene now sounds more defiant than repentant after the House voted overwhelmingly Thursday to kick her off committee assignments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): I've been freed. I do. I feel freed because you know what's happening on these committees? You see, we have basically a tyrannically controlled government right now.

So if I was on a committee, I'd be wasting my time because my conservative values wouldn't be heard and neither would my districts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Eleven House Republicans joined Democrats in stripping her of those committee posts, and that led Greene to refer to those G.O.P. colleagues along with the Democrats as quote, "morons."

[18:10:12] BROWN: All this follows Congresswoman Liz Cheney surviving a vote

aimed at removing her from House G.O.P. leadership for the sin of voting to impeach President Trump.

With me tonight for perspective is Alyssa Farah. She's a former White House Communications Director under President Trump. She stepped down in December and prior to joining the Trump administration, she worked with staunch conservatives such as Mark Meadows, Jim Jordan and the House Freedom Caucus.

Alyssa, thanks so much for being here.

ALYSSA FARAH, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP: Pamela, thanks for having me.

BROWN: So let's start with the impeachment trial because that is coming up. What is your reaction to that video and the new reporting from our Donie O'Sullivan of the QAnon Shaman leaving the Capitol saying Donald Trump asked everybody to go home and therefore he left? What do you think about that in terms of evidence that Democrats could use?

FARAH: Well, first and foremost, he says in that video, we won the day and I would just importantly note, he did not win the day, he won a jail sentence.

But this underscores really that the President's legal team should really not be trying to re-litigate January 6th. The facts are not on his side, that is not a helpful case to make.

If I were still advising President Trump, which I am not, I would tell him to focus on the constitutional issues. There's a very open real question about the constitutionality of impeaching a former President.

As your reporter noted in the segment before, you know that had 45 members vote against the procedural movement to go ahead with this impeachment on those grounds.

When we get into re-litigating the facts of the day, that shaky territory for Republicans to be in. So again, the President should focus on the precedent that this sets and the constitutional side of things.

BROWN: You have expressed your concern about the President's role in the insurrection? Should he be convicted?

FARAH: My recommendation to Republicans would have been they should have gone with censorship not impeachment. He is no longer a sitting President. This is going into kind of uncharted territory. It sets some interesting precedents.

But I would say this, if you just merely went with censuring him in the House and the Senate, I think you would have had significant bipartisan support to show what happened on January 6 was unacceptable. But this is what I worry about as I think Democrats have a tendency to overreach on these things. The American people want them focusing on getting COVID relief done,

getting schools opened, confirming nominees for the Biden administration. I don't think anyone really wants to see a continued impeachment effort go on.

BROWN: And of course, you know, Democrats say, oh, there is precedent for this because the War Secretary, there was the impeachment trial for the War Secretary in the 1800s when he left, but would you be in favor of censoring after the trial, assuming that Trump is acquitted?

FARAH: I think it's an open question for Congress. I'm not going to play judge and jury on that.

I think it is important that Members of Congress do step up and condemn the actions that led to January 6, and many have done that.

And, you know, I think Kevin McCarthy, I give the leader credit, spoke out very plainly about the President's role in it. But I also think the country needs to move on from this moment. I don't think that we benefit from re-litigating over and over what happened that day. We need to be moving forward dealing with the pandemic getting help to the American people.

BROWN: So let's talk more about that those Republicans and what's going on in the G.O.P. right now, because Republicans who did speak out and did vote to impeach like Liz Cheney had been censured.

Just today, Congresswoman Liz Cheney was censured formally in Wyoming for her vote, just the latest example of state Republican parties punishing lawmakers who have gone against supporting Trump. Do you think that's appropriate?

FARAH: Well, it's interesting, because Chairwoman Cheney is actually very popular in Wyoming. And as you, you know, she went under a secret ballot, she got overwhelming support within the House Republican conference.

I think this is more of internal state politics, some of the more maybe conservative leaning wing of the party versus the more establishment. I think she is going to be fine going back into her district. She tends to deliver for her district. She's a vocal and important voice on the House Armed Services Committee.

But I mean, the G.O.P. does have to reckon with this moment that they are in. Obviously, the Marjorie Taylor Greene issues kind of dominated the week, and unfortunately, you know, Kevin McCarthy is in a very unenviable position there.

But I actually think it was kind of the worst case scenario, what ended up happening, the Republicans not punishing her and not taking the action to strip her of her committee assignments led to them Democrats doing that, so she gets to look like a martyr to her base, and then we have this dangerous precedent in the House of one party stripping members of their committee assignments in another party, so that that raises some concerns going forward.

[18:15:01]

BROWN: But you know, the Liz Cheney example today we're seeing that a pattern emerge with the Republicans who do speak out against Trump, it is almost as though they get punished in a sense.

You have Marjorie Taylor Greene, of course, lashing out, as we talked about, in the intro to you. She lashed out at some of her fellow Republicans who voted to strip her from the committee and says it could cost the Republican seat in the midterms.

Are they the ones that could threaten Republicans in 2022? Or is the Marjorie Taylor Greene camp do you think?

FARAH: Well, listen, President Trump will continue to loom large over the Republican Party, for better or for worse. What I would say though, is when you look at members like Marjorie Taylor Greene, she could be beat in her district by a conservative leaning rock-ribbed conservative who supports President Trump's policies, but hasn't made these outrageous claims like the denying 9/11, you know, victimizing the families of the Sandy Hook victims.

There are people who could go against them and step up while still upholding those America First values, but she is not the future of the party.

BROWN: But let's talk about those conspiracy theories that you just pointed out that she has perpetuated before she was a Member of Congress. It seems as though the Republican Party has become more entangled with those conspiracy theories. How do you rid the party of those harmful beliefs?

What do you do? I imagine -- you're a Republican. What is your concern about that?

FARAH: Well, listen, I think it's concerning that it only -- it took until this past week for her to denounce them and really walk those back. I appreciated her apology just a couple of days ago, but it was much too late frankly, but what I would say is this, I also don't want to give undue credit to how widespread some of these beliefs are.

I think that sometimes one bad apple can frame the broader party, and it's not really representative of the viewpoint. I mean, the number of Republicans who came out and denounced some of the more anti-Semitic leaning rhetoric that she used, the 9/11 denial. I mean, every mainstream Republican I know, came out and fiercely denounced that, as well as her going after Sandy Hook victims.

So I would hardly say she's representative of the broader party.

BROWN: I just want to ask you, from your perspective, as a conservative who worked in the Trump White House, she has said that she is actually getting a lot of support from people back home, that they're rallying around her with this controversy surrounding her.

Did you see that dynamic with Trump? I mean, does she have a point there that the more people like her under scrutiny, the more support they get, essentially from their own supporters?

FARAH: Well, that was the point I was making that I do fear that Democrats being the one to take her off her committee assignments are largely Democrats actually does build her support back home because there's a very fair critique by many, many Republicans in this country that they feel like the system is against them, Washington is against them and Democrats are often working against their efforts in Washington. So I think that helps her build sort of a martyr complex that isn't helpful to anyone.

What I hope to see is that Marjorie Taylor green, puts her head down, does important work for her district, learns from her mistakes, you know, take some time and study what happened on 9/11, go across the river, visit The Pentagon, this should be a time for her to actually deliver for her district not get carried away in crazy conspiracy theories.

BROWN: Alyssa, thank you so much for coming on the show. We hope you'll come back as well. Appreciate it.

FARAH: Thanks, Pamela.

BROWN: And up next on this Saturday evening, President Biden looking to make the most of the national audience this Super Bowl Sunday with a thank you to healthcare workers and a message to the nation on vaccines.

Plus, the president declares America is back in his first major foreign policy speech, but as the Kremlin meets protesters with the fiercest crackdown in years, we'll discuss America's complicated relationship with Russia.

CNN's Clarissa and Bianna Golodryga join us later on the hour for a deep dive. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:23:02]

BROWN: The coronavirus vaccine rollout has been less than perfect, but there's some positive news on that front tonight. We're seeing signs that the number of people getting shots is now trending in the right direction.

CNN's Natasha Chen is in Atlanta with more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): In the past week, more than nine million COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the U.S. that outpaced the number of new COVID cases 10 to one.

And in the last two days, the number of people hospitalized came under 90,000 for the first time since late November.

Despite these positive trends, health officials are warning us not to let our guards down.

DR. JEFF DUCHIN, HEALTH OFFICER FOR PUBLIC HEALTH, SEATTLE AND KING COUNTY: At best we're at halftime, and things seem quiet while we're in the locker room. But when we come out, the team that we're facing is going to be a lot tougher than the team we faced in the first half of this outbreak.

CHEN (voice over): As both the pandemic and the Super Bowl are on people's minds this weekend, a source familiar with the plan told CNN President Joe Biden will take advantage of the large national audience on Sunday to thank healthcare workers.

And administration officials said the White House also hopes to combat vaccine hesitancy and speak to the African-American, Latino and white rural non-mask wearing communities in particular.

Meanwhile, Americans are being discouraged from doing what so many typically do this weekend: attending Super Bowl parties.

SHERIFF ALEX VILLANUEVA, LOS ANGELES COUNTRY: It's a Super Bowl, not the stupid bowl, all right, let's try to keep everyone safe. Don't drink, don't drive. Don't bring multiple households together and create a super spreader event in your own home, because I guarantee it, it is going to be your own family and no one is going to be jeopardized.

CHEN (voice over): Speaking of the NFL, the league this week offered the Biden administration every one of its 32 teams stadiums as mass vaccination sites, seven are already in operation and the 49ers Levi's Stadium is about to become California's largest vaccination site.

Yankee Stadium's vaccination site opened Friday, but only for people in the Bronx, an effort to reach underserved communities.

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK CITY: This is about equity. This is about fairness. This is about protecting people who need the most protection because the Bronx is one of the places that bore the brunt of this crisis.

CHEN (voice over): New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio and many other local and state officials say the problem continues to be supply.

GOV. JIM JUSTICE (R-WV): Other than me just running up there and sitting on somebody, you know, we are -- we're doing everything. It is coming from all fronts.

CHEN (voice over): A third vaccine made by Johnson & Johnson could help increase supply, but the U.S. Food and Drug Administration Advisory Committee isn't scheduled to discuss it until February 26.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHEN (on camera): And at the event behind me at Mercedes Benz Stadium today, home of the Atlanta Falcons that was targeted at employees of school districts locally. Of course, vaccination efforts for educators across the country has

been a critical part of conversations on how to bring kids safely back into classrooms. Especially in Chicago where there is no agreement right now.

The Mayor, Lori Lightfoot has said that teachers who don't show up Monday could be locked out of the online system and that could trigger a strike by the union -- Pamela.

BROWN: Wow. A hub of developments there are and this is on a lot of parents' minds, for sure. Natasha Chen, thank you so much.

The second Trump impeachment defense team will put the Constitution and freedom of speech front and center. We're going to break down the arguments with former Nixon White House Counsel, John Dean.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:57]

BROWN: The unprecedented second impeachment trial against Donald Trump starts on Tuesday and the now former president is accused of inciting insurrection in the January 6th assault on Capitol Hill. Here's some of the evidence we might see.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Stop the steal.

CROWD: Stop the steal. Stop the steal. Stop the steal. Stop the steal.

TRUMP: We'll lose everything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Man, we're going to (inaudible) lose it all.

TRUMP: That's treason. That's treason.

CROWD: Treason. Treason. Treason. Treason. Treason.

TRUMP: We got to get Nancy Pelosi the hell out of there and we're very close.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I speak to Pelosi? Yes, we're coming (inaudible) ...

TRUMP: And Mike Pence, I will tell you right now, I'm not hearing good stories.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because Mike Pence is a (inaudible) traitor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Capitol Police were overrun and attacked, five people died, many others were injured. The temple of American democracy was desecrated all in an effort to overturn the results of a free and fair election. To break down the trial ahead, CNN Contributor John Dean, he was White

House counsel to President Richard Nixon and played a pivotal role in the Watergate hearings. And he's also the co-author of Authoritarian Nightmare: Trump and His Followers. Welcome, John.

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you.

BROWN: So on Twitter this week, you called the House manager's brief a historic document, a fine bit of legal work and something that blows up Trump's defenses. What stands out to you?

DEAN: Well, they actually decimated in anticipation of everything his lawyers would file all the arguments both factual and legal. So they have an uphill battle and they didn't file much of a brief in response.

So I think they're purely relying on the fact that they have 45 votes right now anyway on a motion to table the proceedings that really isn't necessarily clearly definitive of how they'll vote for conviction or not, but a good indication that the Republicans do not want to convict. So they're relying on that in bringing these arguments to the Senate.

BROWN: So if he is not convicted, which it appears based on the 45 senators who voted and other indications that he won't be convicted, what is the value of this impeachment trial in your view?

DEAN: Well, one of the things it certainly is going to do is establish the record. We have not seen in the brief that's filed, all of the House managers know and are going to present. They are under oath in a sense that they can't come in there and present false information. They have to rely on solid facts and they will build the case that shows why this man deserves to be not withdrawn from office, but to barred from ever holding office, which is the issue now with his trial.

BROWN: Right. But it's still a question of if he's not going to be convicted, which again it appears at this point from what we know from the GOP he won't, what is the value? But I will point out this new evidence, if you want to call it that, that Democrats could rely on is what Donie O'Sullivan, my colleague just showed with this QAnon shaman leaving the riots on Capitol Hill saying he was doing so because Trump told everyone to go home. How critical is that in terms of evidence?

DEAN: For a normal juror be very significant, for a politically biased jury that doesn't want to hear this information, probably not so much. I think short of Trump coming in and making outrageous lies in front of the Senate, which would offend them and apparently his counsel has told him don't do that, I don't think there's any facts or any information or any new evidence that's going to persuade at least the core of the Republican senators to convict. So that's why it's an easy case for his lawyers not to seriously prepare for it and they haven't done so.

[18:35:07]

BROWN: All right. John Dean, thank you so much for coming on, sharing your perspective.

DEAN: Thanks, Pam.

BROWN: As President Biden resets America's relationship with Russia, Vladimir Putin is facing his biggest test in a decade after one of his biggest critics was arrested. CNN's Bianna Golodryga and Clarissa Ward are here to discuss Russia's future when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:39:36]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I made it clear to President Putin in a manner very different from my predecessor that the days of the United States rolling over in the face of Russia's aggressive actions, interfering with our elections, cyber attacks, poisoning its citizens are over. We will not hesitate to raise the cost on Russia and defend our vital interest and our people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:40:00]

BROWN: (Inaudible) a though tone on Russia and Vladimir Putin Thursday in his first visit to the State Department as president. And it comes as large protests have broken out across Russia. You see in this video over the jailing of opposition leader, Alexei Navalny. Thousands of demonstrators have been arrested in the Kremlin's fiercest crackdown in years.

The coming weeks could determine the fate of Russia for years. For Navalny, everything is on the line. For Putin who has all been named himself president for life, an unprecedented challenge to his authority is emerging. And for the world, a stunning attack on journalism and civil society is playing out in real time.

Here to discuss what comes next in the relationship between the U.S. and Russia, CNN Chief International Correspondent Clarissa Ward who recently interviewed Navalny and CNN Senior Global Affairs Analyst Bianna Golodryga. I can't imagine two better people to be on the show to pick this apart, discuss what is happening because it is significant.

Clarissa, I want to start with you. You interviewed Navalny, as I said. He has been calling for a stronger response to the Kremlin from the Biden administration. What options are on the table?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think the first thing we all have to remember, Pam, is that as the Biden administration is thinking this over, the Navalny response is just one arm of a broader Russia policy. They also have to take into account cyber attacks, misinformation.

So there are a lot of things that they have to keep in mind when they're deciding how they respond to this incident. The most likely way they'll respond is probably through sanctions of some sort, which the E.U. and the U.K. did levy against certain Kremlin officials and FSB State Security Services officials, but the U.S. under the Trump administration did not.

The question becomes who do you levy those sanctions against, do you go for an E.U.-U.K. option where you try to target Kremlin and State Security Services officials or do you do what Navalny himself is actually asking for, which is a broader set of sanctions targeting the wealthy elites around Putin who sort of allow for the flow of money in and out of Putin's inner circle.

And as of yet, we don't have a good sense of what sort of sanctions we might see or if indeed we definitely will see sanctions, but I would just caution in advance that those sanctions, even if they are tough, are probably unlikely to result in the sort of premature release from imprisonment of Navalny.

BROWN: Right. Because we've seen the U.S. impose sanctions against Russia in the past and it really hasn't changed the behavior that we've seen from Vladimir Putin, which raises the question, Bianna, about this movement and what could actually come of it. And if you would just put it in perspective for our viewers how is this movement in Russia different than what we've seen in the past against Putin's reign?

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: You've seen a dramatic change in terms of how the Russian population has responded to Navalny's return to his poisoning to the videos that he has put out exposing the corruption surrounding Vladimir Putin and his circle of cronies.

You can say that the damage has already been done in terms of damaging Vladimir Putin's reputation. He has spent years trying to cultivate this reputation as a modest frugal man who lives on a modest government salary, works for the people.

Well, as Navalny has been able to do with his investigative team, they put out a video that's been viewed over 100 million times, reportedly documenting a $1 billion palace that belongs to Putin and his cronies. This comes at a time when the Russian economy is really hurting. Disposable income is down 10 percent in less than 10 years.

So you have Russians really feeling the pinch right now and the pain not even those that support Navalny, but those who want freedom in terms of fighting corruption. And enough is enough, Putin has been there for 20 years. For many people, this has been their only president that they've known and he has been in power and has sat through five U.S. presidents, but still haven't been able to cultivate a relationship that is fungible that can go forward.

And many question whether Putin in power can create a relationship with the United States where they are not necessarily adversaries which, of course, we are right now.

BROWN: So just for perspective, is this the most you have seen the public's frustration with Putin boil over?

GOLODRYGA: I would say the demonstrations definitely given the past demonstrations in Russia took place in the two largest cities, St. Petersburg and Moscow, really the intelligentsia, really the crowd that supported Navalny. You have people coming out across all 11 time zones in Russia over the past few weeks and not even those support Navalny. They just want change.

They see that their incomes are down, that pensions are down, the handling of coronavirus is not going well in Russia. And for them enough is enough.

[18:45:02]

And what I'm concerned about at this point is there's nothing Vladimir Putin can do in terms of replicating an annexation of Crimea which in 2014, he did and all of a sudden, you saw his popularity skyrocket.

There's nothing he can do right now and in a wag the dog type of scenario that would boost his popularity, which is starting to decline. He's relatively popular with the older population, but the younger population is not watching state television. They watch the internet. They watch YouTube. They watch Navalny's videos.

And so I'm concerned that the only option that Putin is going to have now is to crack down even harder, which we're seeing him do now through these demonstrations with his riot police. And obviously, this is something that is clearly alarming to him and he's pushed up against the wall and he fears that his reign in Russia is coming to an end.

And when his back is pushed up against the wall, this is when you may see a more authoritative side to him.

BROWN: I was just going to ask Clarissa that, what is your concern with Putin feeling like his back is up against the wall and given the fact that Russia is holding elections in September, are you concerned that that will just continue to fuel the crackdowns, these harsh crackdowns that we've been seeing in Russia?

WARD: I think, look, there's no doubt about it. President Putin sees Alexei Navalny and his movement as a threat and he wants to draw a line under it, OK, and he's going to do whatever it takes to make it clear to people that it is not in their best interest to participate in this movement. One of the most effective tools he has at his disposal though, other than sort of cracking down with brutal force on these protesters is really capturing their imagination with this idea that if he was to fall or if he was to go, for some reason, there would be chaos.

And this is something that really does make people in Russia pause for thought, because people remember the 1990s when the Soviet Union collapsed and it was not a good period for people in Russia, it was chaotic. There were criminal gangs all over the place. People didn't have enough money to eat or take care of their families. And they don't want to see a return to that kind of instability. And he's constantly playing on that message over and over again,

without me, essentially, you risk sort of staring into the abyss. So even though I think that these protests are very significant and I think that Navalny is by far the most significant opposition figure we've seen come along, certainly since I've been going to Russia for almost 20 years now, I do still think that Russian people while they may be horrified with the way Navalny has been treated, while they may be sickened by the corruption and cronyism that they see in their own country, they are still fearful and reticent to commit to some kind of real political shake up. They're still scared, essentially, of what the future would hold.

GOLODRYGA: And, Pam, if I could just add that Russia has, despite a declining economy, billions in reserve. So Putin is sitting on a nest egg right now of money that makes him still relatively comfortable in power. As Clarissa said, there's no opponent because he won't allow an opponent against him. He wants to be the sole person in charge in Russia right now.

And when we think about what the west can do, we have to be very careful because this is an internal problem that Russia is facing and Navalny would say the same thing, which is why he is really focusing on these targeted sanctions.

BROWN: That was an important point as well. Clarissa, Bianna, thank you for bringing all of your years of covering Russia, that perspective on the show, really important and I'm sure this conversation will be ongoing. Thanks so much. We'll be right back.

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[18:53:06]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANDA GORMAN, NATIONAL YOUTH POET LAUREATE: We will rebuild, reconcile and recover and every known nook of our nation and every corner called our country, our people diverse and beautiful will emerge, battered and beautiful."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Amanda Gorman inspired Americans at President Biden's inauguration. And tomorrow, the country's first national youth poet laureate could impact in even bigger audience at the Super Bowl. Gorman will recognize three heroes of the pandemic who've been selected as honorary captains for the coin toss. And one of them joins me now, Suzie Dorner is a Nurse Manager working with COVID patients in the ICU at Tampa General Hospital.

Suzie, thanks so much for coming on. Congratulations on this tremendous honor that has been bestowed upon you for the Super Bowl. And let's talk about all that you've been through leading up to this point. The past year has been so traumatic and exhausting, how has the pandemic personally touched you? SUZIE DORNER, NURSE MANAGER, TAMPA GENERAL HOSPITAL: Yes. I think that

we've all been through so much this year and especially those of us that have been on the frontline have endured a lot. Now, it's been very challenging as a new nurse manager to lead my team through this pandemic. But I have an amazing team behind me and a great support system and we've really rallied around one another to provide world- class care to our patients.

BROWN: So bring us behind the scenes, what was that like taking on new ICU leadership when this pandemic struck? I mean, I can't imagine what that must have felt like for you, what that was like day-to-day.

DORNER: Yes. It was hard. My medical ICU became a COVID ICU overnight and at the beginning of the pandemic there was a lot of fear and a lot of anxiety and I really just had to encourage my team and be there to be their advocates.

[18:55:06]

Do a lot of education with the team and make sure that they had all of the essential PPE and supplies that they needed to take care of this new patient population.

BROWN: So what was it like for you then when you got the call that you were selected as an Honorary Captain for the Super Bowl?

DORNER: Oh, my gosh, I was in utter shock when I heard Derrick Brooks (ph) (inaudible) and I couldn't believe when he announced that I was going to be an Honorary Captain. I was just taken aback and now I've had time to let it set in and I still can't believe this is real life. I'm so excited and so incredibly honored and humbled to be representing not only Tampa General Hospital, but all of health care.

I'm just one of 18 million health care workers in the United States and like I said, I'm just incredibly honored and proud to be a part of this amazing group of men and women.

BROWN: And we'll see you on the field tomorrow, is that right?

DORNER: That's right.

BROWN: OK.

DORNER: I will be looking (inaudible) start the game.

BROWN: All right. Well, Suzie Dorner, thank you. Thank you for all you have done as a nurse in the ICU helping with COVID and fight this pandemic. Thank you for that and good luck tomorrow. We'll be right back.

DORNER: Thank you.

BROWN: OK.

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