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Georgia Prosecutor Speaks Out on Trump Criminal Probe; Nikki Haley Breaks with Trump; Rep. James Clyburn (D-SC) is Interviewed About Haley Breaking with Trump, About the Impeachment Trial and the COVID Bill. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired February 12, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We begin with a developing story. On the day that Donald Trump's impeachment lawyers will defend him on the floor of the U.S. Senate, a prominent Republican who served in President Trump's cabinet is breaking with the president. Former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley tells "Politico's" Tim Alberta, quote, "He's not going to run for federal office again. I don't think he's going to be in the picture. I don't think he can. He's fallen so far. We need to acknowledge he let us down. He went down a path he shouldn't have, and we shouldn't have followed him. And we shouldn't have listened to him, and we can't let that ever happen again."

So when the impeachment trial resumes today, CNN has learned Trump's impeachment team will use only a fraction of their allotted 16 hours. And since many Republican jurors seem to be distracted or even absent from the room, both literally and figuratively, it leaves the impression that their vote is a foregone conclusion.

BERMAN: One point during yesterday's proceedings, CNN observed at least 15 empty seats on the Republican side of the chamber. Three Republican senators, Ted Cruz, Lindsey Graham, and Mike Lee, who signed oaths to be impartial jurors, met with the former president's defense team to talk about strategy. CNN's Lauren Fox live on Capitol Hill. In just a few hours we will hear from that defense team. What do we expect, Lauren?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: We expect it to be pretty short, John. And that is part of the reason is because they are trying to deal with the fact that they don't think they can lose this case. And when you have the votes, you vote. That is the slogan on Capitol Hill, and that is the fact going into today.

Look, what the defense team has to do today is essentially not lose any more Republicans. And there's little evidence that they could. Despite the fact that a lot of Republicans have argued that they were compelled by the case the Democrats made, they thought the House managers did a good job, they connected dots, they still feel like they are not going to vote to convict Trump.

We are looking at a universe for potentially five or six Republicans willing to convict Trump at this point, not 17. So the strategy going into today is going to be to keep it short, potentially going as short as three hours when they have up to 16 to make their case, to not go beyond today. Once all of that wraps, we can expect that there would then be four hours for senators to ask questions. Then we would get to the question of whether or not there will be witnesses. We do not expect that at this point.

Assuming that there are no witnesses, then they will go ahead and move to a potential closing argument, and then that vote on whether or not to convict former president Donald Trump on that article of impeachment, inciting an insurrection. You can expect that Trump's team is going to try to tie Democrats to past statements that they think are the same as what Trump did on January 6th.

Of course, House impeachment managers have made the case that this wasn't just about that rally. This wasn't just about that moment. This was about what Trump said before November's election, what he said after November's election, and then of course, what he said during that rally on January 6th. Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Lauren, thank you very much for all of that.

Joining us now, we have CNN White House correspondent John Harwood and CNN legal analyst Jennifer Rodgers, a former federal prosecutor. I just want to start, John Harwood, with the breaking news, the breaking political news, that Nikki Haley, former U.N. ambassador under Donald Trump and often talked about potential presidential candidate, has gone on the record with Tim Alberta of "Politico" to say -- she's really making a very strong break with Donald Trump.

Here are her words, "He's not going to run for federal office again. I don't think he's going to be in the picture. I don't think he can. He's fallen so far. We need to acknowledge he let us down. He went down a path he shouldn't have, and we shouldn't have followed him, and we shouldn't have listened to him, and we can't let that ever happen again." And so what John and I have been marveling at this morning is just how different the viewpoint is from outside the Senate chamber and from the Republican senators inside the Senate chamber. And so what do you think that Nikki Haley feels so compelled to say all of this from where she sits now?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think, first of all, Alisyn, we have to acknowledge that the half-life of what any Republican politician says about Donald Trump is extremely short. Just remember in 2016, Nikki Haley was withering in her language about Donald Trump. Marco Rubio was her candidate. He called Donald Trump a con artist. Ted Cruz said he's a pathological liar. Rick Perry said he's a cancer on conservativism. Then they all fell in line after Donald Trump won.

But Donald Trump's conduct is so egregious, it's very hard to just abjectly defend him nonstop. So Nikki Haley made those statements right around the time the House was impeaching the president in the wake of that insurrection. But remember, just two weeks ago, she gave another interview where she said give the man a break. Democrats are always going after Donald Trump. So it's hard to take some of these things seriously. [08:05:07]

Ted Cruz a couple of weeks ago said the president's rhetoric clearly went over the line. That's when he dropped the anti-reality mask and was candid with someone. Now, of course, he's meeting with the Trump lawyers and going to vote to acquit as most of the Republican senators are.

BERMAN: This is in print now. It is going to be hard for Nikki Haley as she runs for president, which she clearly is, to leave these statements behind. So she's laid down a marker now. And it may very well be that Nikki Haley's split is with Nikki Haley. She made these comments to Tim Alberta a month ago. I do think it's interesting, Jennifer Rodgers, as we are in this impeachment trial, though, about that dichotomy, about the inside the chamber and outside the chamber. There's been so much focus on, oh, the votes aren't there. It's a foregone conclusion. It's not a foregone conclusion about what America thinks about this. It's not a foregone conclusion about what the lasting historical impact of this is. And Nikki Haley's statements, albeit from a month ago, and who knows where she is today or will be next hour, do show that things can change depending on the presentation. So how will that affect do you think what we see today, what we see tomorrow, and just, in germ, the trial?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's a really good point, John. I think that's why you're seeing so many of these Republicans who plan to acquit relying on things other than the facts, right? They are talking about the constitutional argument still, even though that was already resolved on Tuesday. They're talking about this bogus First Amendment defense, which has been roundly thwarted by the House managers. They are not talking about what the president did here, especially what he did on January 6th as the Capitol was being breached, police officers were being viciously beaten, and the vice president and lawmakers were being hunted. They don't want to talk about that.

And that, I think, is to give them a little bit of room to claim that this decision was based purely on procedural grounds, and then see how the winds go, right? And some time after the trial if public opinion swings further against Trump and Republicans at large are breaking with him, then we can start talking about what the president did here and why it's so bad, but how their vote was defensible because it wasn't about the facts at all.

CAMEROTA: Jennifer, I want to ask you about a little bit more breaking news from Kaitlan Collins about what we're going to expect today. You'll remember the underwhelming performance by Bruce Castor, one of the president's defense attorneys, so underwhelming, if you want to use that word, President Trump was reportedly yelling at the television while Bruce Castor was making his opening argument. So now we've just found out from Kaitlan Collins that Bruce Castor will have a speaking role during today's impeachment proceedings, but his arguments will be, quote, crisper and tighter. That's a good start.

BERMAN: That's a low bar, though, compared to last time.

CAMEROTA: As you know, I liked the conversation about the record player and albums. So anyway, Jennifer, what should we expect today?

RODGERS: I think the key word for Castor today is going to be scripted. I don't think he's going to be riffing on record players or anything else. I think he's going to have written out the arguments that he's going to make so that he doesn't stray. And I think they again they are going to really hue to this, this is procedural. These are procedural problems. No due process, which is ridiculous, because they are there getting the process that's actually due to the former president. No constitutionality. The First Amendment applies. They're going to be talking about procedure, procedure, they're not going to be talking about the facts. And I think Bruce Castor is very likely to be much more disciplined today than we saw the other day.

BERMAN: The former president's mouth piece, John, Jason Miller, also just said that they are going to lay out their own timeline of events on January 6th, which will be interesting, I have to say, and there will need to be fact-checking of that. Also, he said there will be video. Even though they've criticized other video, they are going to present video, and Miller suggested that Senator Bernie Sanders and others in the chamber will play a co-starring role. What do you expect?

HARWOOD: First of all, Jason Miller, like Donald Trump, has zero credibility. Yes, they will play video. And we've seen some of the video. We saw video from Brad Parscale, the president's former strategist a couple of days ago. And it's other Democratic politicians using words like fight, and we're going to go after them, and we're going to fight and we're going to win, suggesting that it's all the same, that Donald Trump does it, yes, but so do Democrats do it.

The difference is that Donald Trump did it in the knowledge that there was a specter of violence behind what he said. He's done this throughout his 2016 campaign where he encouraged people to rough up protesters at his rallies. He did this as president where he encouraged police to rough up criminal suspects. He cheered on the people in Texas who tried to run a Biden-Harris bus off the road. He did not condemn the people who plotted to kidnap and possibly kill Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan.

[08:10:07]

And he has continued to encourage dangerous behavior in the run up and during the insurrection when he set his people on Mike Pence by saying he lacked the courage. And, of course, we saw the video of that being read -- that tweet being read on a bullhorn. Had Chuck Schumer or Bernie Sanders or Democrats had followers who were going to react to their words with violence, that comparison would be valid. It isn't valid.

But again, what you got from the president and his defenders is trying to provide some sort of a blinder to allow Republican senators to shield their eyes from the facts, which are plainly in front of them, and say, oh, well, it's a jurisdictional thing. It's unconstitutional. Oh, Democrats do the same thing. Find some shred -- oh, it's the First Amendment -- find some shred of cover for them to acquit. They are going to acquit. We know that. There's going to be a -- it will be the most bipartisan conviction vote we've seen because we expect at least five, maybe six, maybe seven to vote to convict, but it's not going to get to 17.

BERMAN: OK, stand by for a second here. We have much more to discuss because whatever the Senate decides, the legal jeopardy for the former president not over. A top prosecutor in one Georgia county is speaking out about the criminal investigation going on there. How much trouble is the former president in? Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:15:22]

BERMAN: A top prosecutor in Georgia is speaking out about the criminal investigation into the former president about his call with the Georgia secretary of state trying to overturn the election results there. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FANI WILLIAMS, FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: What I know about investigations is they are kind of like peeling back an onion and as you go through each layer, you learn different things. And so, yes, the investigation seems that it will go past just this one phone call.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Back with us, Jennifer Rodgers and John Harwood.

Jennifer, whether or not the former president could ultimately be charged or even convicted here, how uncomfortable could this process be, particularly as a grand jury is empanelled?

RODGERS: Well, I think very uncomfortable, John. And not just for Donald Trump. You know, remember there were other people in his corner who were allegedly making calls and exerting pressure including Lindsey Graham.

So, I think it's going to be uncomfortable for a lot of people. You know, Donald Trump has a lot of legal pressure coming his way. He has civil suits. He has a variety of criminal investigations, and he's notoriously hard to -- he has a notoriously hard time finding good lawyers.

So, I think the pressure is on him, including this one from Fulton County, Georgia, are going to be really tough for him.

BERMAN: One strategy that the former president used while in office and people surrounding him was just to ignore subpoenas. Just to ignore legal proceedings. And not show up.

What happens if they try that here?

RODGERS: It doesn't work in the criminal context. If he tries to ignore a subpoena, he would be -- he'd get an order from the judge to comply. Now they wouldn't subpoena his testimony because, of course, a

criminal defendant has a Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate himself but in terms of documents and other records he may have, he will have to comply with any orders of the court or grand jury depending on the state of the proceedings.

CAMEROTA: John, in terms of Donald Trump's anxiety level, he has always seemed to know where the real trouble lies for him. He's not sweating the Senate impeachment trial but this criminal case in Georgia is a different ball of wax.

HARWOOD: And, Alisyn, it's not just the case in Georgia. He's got Cy Vance, the Manhattan district attorney, conducting what Vance has said is a criminal investigation that may involve significant investigations into the Trump organization, and its financial dealings, potential tax fraud, all that sort of thing.

So the two most important prosecutors in the country from Donald Trump's perspective over the next couple of months are that Fulton County prosecutor we just heard from and Cy Vance and those are significant. You know, we talked about Trump potentially pardoning himself before he left office. So far as we know, he didn't do that, but those pardons couldn't reach state and local prosecutions in any event.

So he's got significant problems. We've heard that phone call with Brad Raffensperger where he was asking for a specific number of votes to overcome Joe Biden's lead. That's a significant indication of his intent where he was trying to get the results changed. So I would say he's got big problems on two different fronts. Not sure how easy it is for a former president to fend off a criminal prosecution if that's what ends up coming his way.

BERMAN: Jennifer, the other thing here is you mentioned people in the political orbit of the former president. In an investigation like this, there's immunity for people who may or may not have culpability themselves. They can grant immunity to people who might have to take it in order to protect themselves.

RODGERS: Oh, they sure could. That's the sort of thing you do in an investigation like this, that is the sort of thing that you do.

Now, they have a huge gift here which is the phone call that was actually recorded. You usually don't have that kind of evidence. So that will make a cooperating witness, if you will, or an immunized witness less important than it might otherwise be, but you better believe that they're going to want, in addition to that recorded call, they're going to want testimony about what the president was thinking and the strategy that they were plotting in terms of overturning those Georgia election results and to get that, you may need to immunize some people.

CAMEROTA: Jennifer Rodgers, John Harwood, thank you both very much.

(AUDIO GAP) Trump administration is now breaking with him. We get reaction from a top congressional leader, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:23:34]

BERMAN: Developing this morning, former South Carolina governor and ambassador to the United Nations, Nikki Haley, made something of a break, a pretty significant break with the former president of the United States.

She told "Politico's" Tim Alberta, quote: He's not going to run for federal office again. I don't think he's going to be in the picture. I don't think he can. He's fallen so far.

We need to acknowledge he let us down. He went down a path he shouldn't have and we shouldn't have followed him and shouldn't have listened to him and we can't let that ever happen again.

Joining me now is Democratic majority whip and the dean of the South Carolina delegation, Jim Clyburn.

Congressman, thanks so much for being with us.

And I'm just wondering what you think of what your former Governor Nikki Haley said. How much weight do you put in it?

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): Well first of all, thank you very much for having me.

Well, you know, we often say down here in the South, better late than never. And I suspect that that may apply here.

But I think you were right this morning when you said that this is an incident of Nikki Haley breaking with Nikki Haley. Just two or three weeks ago, she was admonishing us to leave the man alone. Now she is saying, we shouldn't have followed him.

Well, that's all we've been saying all the time. This man does not deserve to be followed. Now you have to wait and see whether or not this break means anything.

[08:25:02]

BERMAN: What does it tell you about the potential for other Republicans or other people who have been supporters of the president to turn their backs on him, at least politically, even after the impeachment trial?

CLYBURN: Well, you know, I watched very intently, especially on yesterday as the House managers closed their remarks. They were brilliant all week. They have allowed the American people to see exactly who and what Donald Trump is.

This, to me, is a big contribution to the Republican Party. I don't see how they could possibly not take this opportunity to free themselves of the yoke that this man is around their necks. And so, I don't know that they'll do it. I suspect that they'll give

him a mulligan as they did before, but Donald Trump knows very well the next mulligan he gets is going to have to be on the golf course, because they're waiting for him in Fulton County, Georgia, as well as up in New York. I don't think he's going to escape this. This is just the beginning.

BERMAN: Well, as you know, one of his golfing partners is your senator, Lindsey Graham. I hate to cover more parochial interest to you, but Senator Lindsey Graham met with the former president's defense team yesterday to plot strategy. Lindsey Graham also says that he thinks somehow, that the House managers have added to the number of Republicans who will vote to acquit.

So what's your assessment of what your senator is doing?

CLYBURN: I have absolutely no idea. He may be a pretty good lawyer, but he's not a good mathematician. I can tell you that full well (ph). That's like saying he's gaining momentum out here among the public, and we all know he has fallen fast in the court of public opinion, and I do believe that Lindsey Graham's math is very, very bad here.

Now he may be right. We may not get to 17, but I guarantee you, we have not lost any.

BERMAN: Do you think it's appropriate to Lindsey Graham to be meeting with the defense lawyers?

CLYBURN: No, I don't think so. It may be allowed, but inappropriate.

Just because a thing can be done doesn't mean it ought to be done. And I do believe that those three senators have held themselves out for a lot of mockery going forward. Now, Lindsey just got re-elected and maybe he'll weather the storm.

But I'll tell you this, the public sees this as being very unseemly, and I think they made a horrible mistake doing it.

BERMAN: So you've been hard at work on the huge relief plan, $1.9 trillion, that President Biden supports.

Moments ago, we learned that Kyrsten Sinema, a Democratic senator from Arizona, went on the record saying she is opposed to including raising the minimum wage to $15. She will not vote for a $15 minimum wage as part of that bill. Joe Manchin is already on the record.

So you've got two Democratic senators who are no votes. How does that (ph) not mean the minimum wage increase to $15 is basically dead at this point?

CLYBURN: Because I don't think all Republicans are opposed to minimum wage increase. We may lose two Democrats. We may pick up three or four Republicans. I don't know.

But I do know this -- for anybody, Democrat or Republican, to see what the American people are going through and not be able to see that $15 an hour minimum wage gradually increasing over time is not appropriate, you don't have much sensitivity for the American people. We all know that $7.25 an hour, which is what it is now, is below the poverty line.

And people should not be working every day, all day, eight hours a day and earning poverty wages. It should not happen, not in this country. And we ought to really take a hard look at what we are saying to the American people when we say to them, you are not deserving of a livable wage, but I can vote for people to get these big tax cuts, $1.5 trillion in tax cuts going mainly to the wealthy, and we're saying to everybody, let them eat cake.

BERMAN: You really think you could get Republican votes? The only way -- you acknowledge the only way it would pass at this point is with Republican votes. You really think they're there?

CLYBURN: Yes, I think there are Republicans who will vote for minimum wage.

[08:30:00]