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Rep. James Clyburn (D-SC) is Interviewed about Minimum Wage; White House Valentine's Day Display; Awaiting Direction from Trump; The Story of Lincoln. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired February 12, 2021 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You think they're really there?

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): Yes, I do think there are Republicans who will vote for a minimum wage. You know, what we've gone through in recent years with the Republican Party, I think that after this trail is over, they're going to break out of this malaise. They are really in a very bad place. Many of them know that. They'll get this yoke from around their necks called Donald Trump and they'll begin to engage with the American people once again.

You know, I don't have this animus toward Republicans. I -- my mother and father were Republicans. So Republicans are all right with me. I just want them to get right with the American people.

BERMAN: One of the things that's been out there and sort of accepted conventional wisdom is that the White House and some Democrats would think that calling witnesses at the impeachment trial would somehow get in the way of the Biden agenda. How do you feel? I mean you've -- you've made progress inside the House with the relief bill. So how would witnesses get in the way of the progress?

CLYBURN: I never thought that witnesses would get in the way of the progress, and I don't think that's what happened here. I think that those managers sat down and assessed what was the best way to present this case to the Senate and to the American people. And the way they chose to do it was just magnificent. I don't see how they could have done themselves any better by having witnesses. I think what they did was the proper thing and they did it very effectively.

BERMAN: Congressman Jim Clyburn, it's always a pleasure to have you on. Thanks so much for being with us this morning.

CLYBURN: Thank you very much for having me.

BERMAN: All right, President Joe Biden and the first lady appeared on the North Lawn of the White House moments ago. The president spoke to CNN. We will bring you what he said, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:35:41]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking Valentine's Day news.

Moments ago, First Lady Jill Biden surprised the president with a display of giant candy hearts.

BERMAN: I don't think they're real candy.

CAMEROTA: Maybe they are, John, you don't know. But we will ask Jeremy Diamond about that.

This was on the front lawn of the White House for, of course, Valentine's Day. The first couple were dressed casually, as you can see. Joe Biden dressed as Fonzi. They both held coffee cups. First dogs Champ and Major tagged along for this. And the president also took questions from reporters, including our own Jeremy Diamond live at the White House.

So what did you talk to him about, Jeremy?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

It's not often that the president of the United States makes an impromptu visit to the North Lawn of the White House, but that's what we saw this morning as he joined the first lady to visit those candy hearts that are right behind me, g-rated, unlike what John Berman was suggesting earlier.

But I did get a chance to ask the president a few questions this morning. I asked him about the rollout of vaccines, the challenges that he will face, as well as the impeachment trial and his views of that after the impeachment managers wrapped their case just yesterday.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: You know, you talked about vaccines, 300 million Americans by July.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes.

DIAMOND: How long will it take to actually get the shots in arms?

BIDEN: Well, it's going to -- that -- we -- this has never been done before. And what our hope is, is that we'll be able to by -- at the end of the summer, everybody have -- almost everybody, 300 million shots in people's arms.

But it -- it's going to take time. It's going to take time. But watch yourself. Don't get hit. I don't want you to back into that thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, thank you, sir.

BIDEN: That's OK.

DIAMOND: And, Mr. President, do you have any more thoughts on the impeachment trial now that the defense -- the, you know, impeachment managers have rested.

BIDEN: No. I'm just anxious to see whether -- what my Republican friends do, if they stand up.

DIAMOND: And you're not planning to speak with any of them about what -- what they can do or how they will vote (ph) then (ph).

BIDEN: No, I'm not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, thanks, guys. Thanks, everybody.

BIDEN: Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: And you can hear there, the president saying that he is anxious to see how Republican senators will ultimately vote in this impeachment trial. That is notable because the president has really resisted weighing in on this impeachment trial. He has also not said explicitly whether he believes that the former president should be convicted in this trial. But to say that he is anxious to see how Republicans vote and whether they will stand up suggests he's anxious to see whether they will stand up to former President Trump, stand up and indeed convict the former president for this charge of incitement of an insurrection.

And then the other notable thing there was on the vaccine front. You can hear the president, he made clear, as he did yesterday, that there are huge logistical challenges to actually getting those shots in arms. Even though the U.S. will have enough vaccine doses by the end of July now to vaccinate every American, he made clear that it will take longer to actually get those shots into arms. But he did say that he hopes to see, by the end of the summer, every adult American who wants a vaccine to be able to have been inoculated.

BERMAN: Jeremy, that was actually really interesting what you got from the president on the Senate trial. I don't think I've heard him speak that way at all about the idea that he's waiting to see if his Republican friends stand up. That's -- look, I mean I don't know that it was -- certainly wasn't planned because I don't think he was expected to be, you know, be ambushed by you on the North Lawn by that, but it's a different position for him.

DIAMOND: It is. You know, yesterday he was asked earlier in the day, before the impeachment managers wrapped their case, he was -- he said, I think some minds may have been changed. And he was talking, I believe, in particular about the vote by Louisiana Senator Bill Cassidy, who was the only Republican senator to actually change his vote on the constitutionality argument, whether this impeachment trial against the former president could actually move forward.

But, today, to hear the president say that he is anxious to see how these Republican senators will vote is notable. And it suggests in the strongest terms that he has said so far that he would like to see the former president convicted and he is anxious to see whether indeed Republicans are willing to break with the former president. We know, of course, that in all likelihood president -- former

President Trump will be acquitted of these charges. It's a very, very high bar for 17 Republican senators to actually join in convicting the former president. And I think Joe Biden knows that. But, at the same time, perhaps he's thinking back to other times when some Republican senators might have been willing to take a more principled stand.

BERMAN: Jeremy Diamond, you are our valentine.

[08:40:01]

Thank you very much for being with us. Despite the fact they're not candy. You're never going to convince me --

CAMEROTA: You don't know that. He didn't confirm that. He didn't confirm that.

BERMAN: You'll never going to convince me of that. They're not candy.

Thank you, Jeremy.

Developing this morning, police arresting five alleged members of the far right group the Proud Boys on conspiracy charges for their alleged role in the Capitol siege.

Meantime, there are new allegations that members of the Oath Keepers militia believed they were waiting for direction from the former president on that day.

CNN's Jessica Schneider with the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Prosecutors are now putting it plainly in their latest court filings. Some of the alleged Capitol rioters believed they were responding to the call from then-President Trump himself.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: So let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.

SCHNEIDER: The latest revelation comes in the case of Jessica Watkins. Watkins is a military veteran who is now a leader in the right wing militia movement and the group the Oath Keepers, according to prosecutors. They told a judge, as the inauguration grew nearer, Jessica Watkins indicated that she was awaiting direction from President Trump. Specifically, they say she sent a text on November 9th saying, I am concerned this is an elaborate trap unless the POTUS himself activates us, it's not legit. The POTUS has the right to activate units, too. If Trump asks me to come, I will.

This is the most direct language we've heard yet from federal prosecutors linking Trump's rhetoric --

TRUMP: We fight. We fight like hell.

SCHNEIDER: To the people charged with the most militant aspects of the insurrection.

Watkins had trained and plotted for a moment like this, prosecutors told a judge, arguing to keep her in jail pending trial. They say Watkins wore fatigues and combat gear leading 30 to 40 people on a radio app January 6th.

Prosecutors are also detailing the plans of a man they say worked with Watkins, Thomas Caldwell. A fellow member of the Oath Keepers, Caldwell allegedly discussed transporting weapons across the Potomac River up to the Capitol. Prosecutors say the weapons by boat plan was hatched three days before the siege when Caldwell texted someone he believed was connected to another paramilitary group, the Three Percenters. Caldwell allegedly explained bringing weapons by boat would help them get around D.C.'s district gun laws and said, I will buy the fuel. Maybe scooting on the river a bit and pretending to fish. Then if it all went to expletive, our guy load our weps and Blue Ridge Militia weps and ferries them across.

Both Caldwell and Watkins have been charged with conspiracy.

All of this as a judge has now released this woman from custody.

RACHEL POWELL: I've been in the other room. Listen to me.

SCHNEIDER: Rachel Powell directed fellow rioters with a megaphone during the insurrection, according to prosecutors. They presented plenty of evidence to try to keep Powell behind bars, showcasing photos in court of firearms, paraphernalia inside her home, along with smashed cell phones and go bags, arguing she is a flight risk.

Inside those go bags, prosecutors say Powell put throwing knives and survival gear, like tape, lighters and tarps. The Washington, D.C., judge who released her said that since two Proud Boys members, including an alleged leader had been released, the judge could not fairly keep Powell, a Pennsylvania mother of eight, locked up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: Conspiracy charges have now been unsealed against five people associated with the far right group the Proud Boys. Prosecutors say these five moved together. They also wore the same florescent orange tape on their clothing. And they wore tactical gear. And then a footnote in these court filings. The FBI says that there could be more charges to come associated with this conspiracy and the Proud Boys.

Alisyn and John.

CAMEROTA: Our thanks to Jessica.

So forget what you think you know about Abraham Lincoln. A new CNN original series reveals the stuff you do not find in history books. We have a sneak peek, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:47:54] BERMAN: Abraham Lincoln often hailed as one of America's greatest presidents, if not the greatest president who ended slavery, saved the country from collapse, but there is a depth that many, if not most, don't understand here.

Now the new CNN original series "Lincoln: Divided We Stand" explores Lincoln's tragic personal life and history-making political career to reveal the real Abraham Lincoln and all his complexity and imperfection.

Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people said Lincoln was a fiery opponent of slavery from the day he was born. And that's not quite true.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It turns out that a great way to put down the rebellion is to yank the enslaved Africans out from under his enemies. And the guy really was freeing slaves hoping they'd go back to Africa. They don't tell you that in second grade.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The scent of slavery has loomed over America for centuries. And it was not absolved with emancipation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lincoln died close to Easter. So this made it easy for people to imagine that he died for the sins of the nation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The martyr narrative made it possible for us to think of Lincoln in a simplistic way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Joining us now, CNN's senior political analyst John Avlon. He is the author of the upcoming book "Lincoln and the Fight for Peace."

Sort of the end of the story where that clip we just played is some ways is more of the beginning of the story, John.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

BERMAN: And you have to look no further than Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural address to see the complexity there. Everyone remembers the better angels part of that, which is a beautiful turn of phrase and an uplifting oration to be sure. But in this inaugural address, it's not a defense of slavery, but he implores the south, insists to the south that he doesn't want to get rid of it. Much of the speech is telling the south that we will protect the institution of slavery there.

AVLON: That's right. I mean, look, it's Lincoln's birthday, by the way. So it's good we're talking about this.

But in that first inaugural, it really captured where Lincoln was as the first president from the new Republican Party. He was opposed to slavery but he was specifically opposed to slavery's expansion.

[08:50:00]

He did not believe the Constitution gave him power to get rid of slavery on its own. The war, ironically, would achieve that.

But in the beginning, the south seceded simply because Lincoln and the Republicans were elected. And so, look, part of the -- part of the point of the war was, as Lincoln said, to show that there can be no successful appeal from the ballot to the bullet.

And when they did secede and the war began, Lincoln, who was a man of peace, became a wartime president for really the duration of his time. And as the war evolved, he was able to enact more aggressive policies to end slavery than he would have been able to do in peace time.

CAMEROTA: Let's watch another portion of this CNN special. This one about his self-deprecating humor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He becomes quite popular and known around New Salem for his good humor and colorful stories.

CONAN O'BRIEN, WRITER, COMEDIAN: He used wit and comedy at his own expense to connect with people. He had a lot of fun with the fact that he was not a good looking guy. I like stories where he's making fun of himself. There's that famous one where he was riding along and a woman is riding the other way and stops him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She aimed a rifle at him and he said, madam, why are you pointing that gun at me?

O'BRIEN: You can see just Lincoln like Buster Keaton or any great just staring.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she said, because I always resolve that if I ever met a man who was uglier than I am I would shoot him. And he looked at her and he said, madam, if I am really uglier than you, then fire away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: I bet she didn't see the Conan O'Brien comparison between Lincoln and Buster Keaton coming, did you?

BERMAN: Tall people. Tall people like each other.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: That's what it all boils down to there.

AVLON: But it makes a really important point. I mean, you know, Lincoln seemed so distant and dower, but, in fact, he was a person of great humor. But he used it very strategically in politics and in his personal life. In politics he used humor as a pathway to reason, to get people to drop their defenses, to be able to connect with them on a human level.

In his personal life, here's a person who struggled with melancholy, with depression for much of his life. And so he used humor as a way to self-medicate. Even throughout the war, there was a lot of controversy in his cabinet because before these momentous moments he would be seen reading from the books of his favorite humorists, Saloud (ph), and it kind of irritated the people around him. They thought it was irreverent. But really he was trying to salve his own suffering through humor.

And it's a great lesson about leadership and about the way we can overcome the demons inside us.

BERMAN: And, John, I actually think that this is what your book, which I can't wait to read, the upcoming book, largely looks at is sort of what Lincoln planned to do to heal the country and ultimately wasn't able to ever follow through with because he was assassinated there.

You know, it's appropriate as we think about healing in this country right now. I mean what lessons would he have for us right now?

AVLON: You know, my book's about Lincoln's plan to win the peace, his vision for national reconciliation and reunification. And one of the many things that Lincoln can still teach us, and there's a reason he's being invoked by politicians on both sides of the aisle constantly, but perhaps more now than in recent history, because our country feels more divided perhaps than at any time since the Civil War.

History gives us hope. It reminds us we've been through more difficult times before.

It also teaches lessons. Presidential leadership matters.

Lincoln, our greatest president, was book ended by two of our worst, James Buchanan and Andrew Johnson. Still, the nation survived. And even though he died, his ideals lived on to inspire future generations. He was determined to be a reconciler in chief. He was a man of peace in a time of war. And his leadership in politics kept emphasizing that.

You know, even at the height of the Civil War, he wouldn't demonize his opponents. Even his enemies acknowledged that he was honest. And those are some of the key leadership lessons from Lincoln that lived on.

As Sherman once said, I never met a man who combined such qualities of greatness with goodness. And, indeed, in our best presidents and in America, our greatness and our goodness should be combined.

BERMAN: Look, there's a reason Steven Douglas' greatest political rival literally held his hat at his first inauguration there.

AVLON: Yes.

BERMAN: And that's a lesson.

AVLON: That's right.

BERMAN: John, terrific. Thank you so much.

AVLON: Thanks, guys.

BERMAN: Good luck on the book, to be sure.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Can't wait to read it.

AVLON: It's a great documentary. Looking forward to it.

Thank you.

CAMEROTA: OK, so you can all watch the all-new CNN original series "Lincoln: Divided We Stand." It premieres Sunday at 10:00 p.m. only on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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