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Florida Official Refuses To Lower Flags To Honor Rush Limbaugh; CNN Reality Check: Why Merrick Garland's Prosecution Of OKC Bomber Matters Today; Justice Thomas Reveals Sympathy For Trump's Baseless Fraud Claim. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired February 23, 2021 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Now for why he doesn't want $15.00 an hour and why he wants $11.00.

He says, "Eleven dollars basically works for Americans and we can do $11.00 in two years and be in a better position than they're going to be with $15.00 in five years."

Your thoughts?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR, CO-HOST, CNN PODCAST, "POLITICALLY SOUND": Yes. Joe Manchin is trying to prove himself to be the most powerful person in Washington, I think is what he's trying to do here.

We just mentioned Neera Tanden, right? It was his opposition as the one Democrat that's come out opposed to Neera Tanden that sent her nomination as OMB director into a tailspin because the Biden administration had to go scrambling to find Republican votes.

When you have a 50-50 divided Senate and you're trying to do things on Democrat-only votes -- like the Biden administration is trying to pass this COVID relief bill, Alisyn -- then any single Democrat becomes sort of kingmaker in many ways.

And so, with this minimum wage battle, which we don't even know yet if it's going to be according to the rules to include the $15.00 minimum wage in the COVID relief bill. We're waiting to find that out from the Senate parliamentarian.

But Manchin made clear even if it's allowed in the bill he's not going to vote for it. Well, if you're doing something where you need every single Democratic vote -- all 50 -- Joe Manchin then makes a really big difference.

And so, you hear what is an opening for a potential compromise. You've heard Joe Biden mention that he may be open to compromise on the minimum wage as well. And you can start seeing where keeping all 50 Democrats on board, including Manchin, has a potential path forward here. JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I asked Dick Durbin yesterday if the Democrats in the Senate had a Joe Manchin problem and he told me no, they have a 50-50 problem. But really, the 50-50 problem is a Joe Manchin problem. It's one in the same thing.

David, very quickly, President Biden, last night with the speech to the nation -- what you saw there is something that Joe Biden does and can do at a crucial moment for America.

CHALIAN: Yes, he can almost do it like nobody else that we've seen in public life just because of his own personal experiences. Putting that kind of empathy forward -- that kind of humanity forward in a moment of grief and sort of be grief counselor to the nation is just something he has in his bones.

And I think that moments like what you saw last night commemorating that awful grim milestone of 500,000 Americans dead due to this terrible pandemic is why Joe Biden, a month in, is still experiencing in most of the polls a bit of a honeymoon. Why he's still getting good grades on his handling of the pandemic. In other words, why the American people are still giving him time right now in order to actually deliver on turning this pandemic around.

CAMEROTA: David Chalian, thank you very much.

So, Florida's governor wants to lower flags to half-staff -- not because of coronavirus but to honor Rush Limbaugh. One state official is refusing to follow the governor's order and we will speak to her, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:37:02]

BERMAN: An elected official in Florida is defying a directive from Gov. Ron DeSantis to lower state flags in honor of conservative talk show host Rush Limbaugh.

Joining me now is Florida's Agriculture commissioner, Nikki Fried. Commissioner, thanks so much for joining us.

Why do you refuse to lower the flags at the buildings that you control?

NIKKI FRIED (D), FLORIDA AGRICULTURAL COMMISSIONER (via Cisco Webex): First of all, good morning, John, and thank you for having me on today.

You know, the American flag should not be used and cannot be used as a political prop by Gov. DeSantis. And what he's doing is he's bending over backwards to honor a radio host who spent his entire career talking hate speech and talking bigotry and division and conspiracy theories.

And lowering our flag should be a symbol of unity, not division; raising our standards, not lowering our standards. So we will not be lowering our flags at my department's state offices to honor Rush Limbaugh.

And we will not celebrate hate speech. Instead, we will celebrate unity and compassion. And that's also why you're seeing mayors and local leaders across the state of Florida following my lead on this.

BERMAN: What do you think the governor's power is to call for state flags to be lowered?

FRIED: You know, we have a state protocol that dictates when to lower the flag and that's to honor fallen heroes, first linemen, servicemen -- people who have served our country and served our state. And it's very clear what the flag protocol is and the governor is using this as a political prop and not something that should be taken for granted.

People have -- across our history and our country, brave men and women have fought and died to protect the flag. This is something as a symbol that reflects our patriotism and liberty and all the beautiful things that makes America great. We should be recognizing those individuals who have sacrificed and not those who have created division and spoken bigotry and racist comments for their entire career.

BERMAN: My reading of the provisions of the state flag lowering is there are a number of criteria but people can petition the governor and the governor can decide to do so if he or she wants. That may be a side issue.

What message do you think it sends to Floridians?

FRIED: It sends a message that this is the type of person that we are honoring in our state. And we should be honoring those who have fallen in the line of duty.

You know, the president is lowering the flags to recognize the 500,000 individuals in our country who have died because of coronavirus and memorializing them and recognizing the sacrifices of their families. That's what we should be honoring.

And when Gov. DeSantis uses the flag -- the American flag as a prop, it sends a message to the rest of the citizens of our state that that is what he idolizes. He calls him his friend. And quite honestly, if those are the types of friends that Gov. DeSantis deals with --

[07:40:00]

BERMAN: The Agriculture Commissioner Nikki Fried appears to be frozen. Let me wait for one second to see if she comes back. I'll talk for one second here.

The commissioner, Nikki Fried -- people should know she is the highest-ranked Democratic statewide elected official right now in the state of Florida.

Commissioner, you're back with us.

FRIED: Yes. BERMAN: What are your plans in terms of running for governor against Ron DeSantis in 2022?

FRIED: You know, John, every single day it is becoming more and more clear that we have to get rid of Gov. DeSantis. And as the only statewide elected Democrat in the state of Florida, there are a lot of people who are coming up to me and telling me that I am one of our best shots. So we are certainly looking into it. But again, it's becoming clearer every single day that we need to make sure that Gov. DeSantis is a one-term governor and that we end this hatred in our state in 2022.

BERMAN: That sounds close to a yes.

FRIED: We're not there yet.

BERMAN: What happens, by the way, on the flags? I mean, can they force you? Can they send in State Police? Is there a likelihood there could be conflict to force the issue here?

FRIED: You know, part of the protocol in our state is also that there is no penalties for not abiding by the order from the governor. So that's why I have given the directive to my office to not lower it. But there are no penalties involved and that is something that, you know, you don't want to penalize somebody for their beliefs by any stretch of the imagination.

BERMAN: Commissioner Nikki Fried, thanks so much for being with us this morning. Appreciate it.

FRIED: Thank you for having me this morning.

BERMAN: So, Judge Merrick Garland pledged to supervise the prosecution of hundreds of people charged in the Capitol insurrection. See how his history convicting domestic terrorists can help him as attorney general. A reality check, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:46:05]

CAMEROTA: Five years after he was blocked from a U.S. Supreme Court seat, Merrick Garland is back -- and this time, as attorney general nominee. And it turns out the timing is perfect.

John Avlon explains in our reality check. Hi, John.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hey, Ali.

So you probably know attorney general nominee Merrick Garland as Obama's ill-fated pick to the Supreme Court, but you might not know why Garland was considered so qualified and why it's so relevant today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MERRICK GARLAND, NOMINEE, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I supervised the prosecution of the perpetrators of the bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building who sought to spark a revolution that would topple the federal government.

If confirmed, I will supervise the prosecution of white supremacists and others who stormed the Capitol on January sixth -- a heinous attack that sought to disrupt a cornerstone of our democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: So the connection between the two is key. As the top official at the DOJ back in the Clinton administration, Garland led the investigation into Timothy McVeigh who set of a bomb at the Murrah Federal Building on April 19th, 1995 that killed 168 people, including many children.

McVeigh was a disaffected Army veteran who attended meetings with the self-styled Michigan Militia.

He was arrested wearing a t-shirt with a quote from Thomas Jefferson, popular with so-called patriot groups. "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Now, this was an outer expression of the kind of anti-government Kool- Aid he'd been drinking but there was a deeper strain of hate at work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARLAND: There is a line from Oklahoma City all the way back to the battles of the original Justice Department against the Ku Klux Klan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: That's right. Founded after the Civil War, the DOJ's first mission was to combat the KKK.

So the virus of white vigilante violence trying to overturn elections and disenfranchise black voters dates back to reconstruction. Their inheritors found new recruits in reaction to the civil rights movements in the 1960s with groups like Posse Comitatus and the Sovereign Citizens Movement that basically denied federal authority this side of the Civil War.

Now, for some of these folks, the 14th Amendment, not slavery, was America's original sin. Others pointed to the 16th Amendment, which allowed for federal income tax. And most of them thought that freedom meant the Second Amendment almost exclusively.

In the 1990s, these anti-government militia groups rose in reaction to confrontations at Ruby Ridge and Waco.

But the carnage of the Oklahoma City attack was so horrific that it caused a backlash and a number of self-styled patriot groups declined for a time. But they reconstituted in reaction to President Obama and many saw an ally in President Trump. Now, compare what McVeigh once said. Quote, "Is a civil war imminent?

Do we have to shed blood to reform the current system?"

To the kind of talk we've heard from the Oath Keepers, a paramilitary group whose members were charged in the Capitol attack. Quote, "We're on the verge of a hot civil war, like in 1859."

And consider an ABC News report that McVeigh had been showing up in multiple FBI documents since 2017, invoked by would-be domestic terrorists.

It's all too clear why Merrick Garland's experience prosecuting Tim McVeigh is relevant to the troubles we're dealing with today. Still, it's sobering to hear him say this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARLAND: We are facing a more dangerous period than we faced in Oklahoma City.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: And that's your reality check.

CAMEROTA: John, that was excellent. Thank you very much for all of that background on him.

So, the U.S. Supreme Court issuing two big Trump-related decisions. But it is Clarence Thomas' dissent that's getting a lot of attention, and we discuss that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:53:28]

CAMEROTA: Monday was not a good day for Donald Trump at the U.S. Supreme Court. They dealt big blows to his efforts to shield his tax returns and his false claims of election fraud.

But in a remarkable dissent yesterday, Justice Clarence Thomas revealed what sounded like support for Donald Trump and his refusal to accept the results of the 2020 election.

Joining us now, CNN Supreme Court analyst Joan Biskupic, and CNN legal analyst Elie Honig. Great to see both of you.

Joan, let me just read --

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Sure.

CAMEROTA: -- what Clarence Thomas wrote and you can help us parse it.

He says, "Because fraud is more prevalent with mail-in ballots, increased use of those ballots raises the likelihood that courts will be asked to adjudicate questions that go to the heart of election confidence." And he had two more pieces about election confidence. Is that, on its face, something unusual for a justice to say?

BISKUPIC: It was in this case, Alisyn. It's just because of where we've been since November third. All the different court cases that have gone on. All the rhetoric that has come from former President Donald Trump and many Republicans who refused to accept the results of the November third election. It plays right into that.

I think that there are -- you know, there have been in the past maybe some incidents that people might be concerned about, but there is nothing resembling systemic fraud in elections. As you remember, former attorney general Bill Barr even said there was nothing widespread about fraud here.

[07:55:00]

And for Justice Thomas to bring it up in this opinion yesterday was quite stunning. Eleven pages -- he mentioned fraud 10 times. He had a very ominous tone talking about the integrity of elections and that people should not have confidence in the system just because systemic fraud has not been discovered.

Now, one other thing you should know, Alisyn. He wrote alone. None of the other conservative justices joined him.

And Justices Samuel Alito and Neil Gorsuch also dissented from the order that said they weren't going to take up the Pennsylvania case. But they did not join a word of what Clarence Thomas said.

CAMEROTA: A little bit more, Elie, from Clarence Thomas about his own confusion, I suppose -- or voters' confusion.

He says, "An election system lacks clear rules when, as here, different officials dispute who has authority to set or change those rules. This kind of dispute brews confusion because voters may not know which rules to follow. Even worse, competing candidates might each declare victory under different sets of rules."

I mean, all of this is a little opaque. However, it's hard to divorce this from the views of his wife who has been so public with her support for MAGA world and on January sixth was cheering them on -- cheering on the protesters before the violent insurrection, and telling them to stand up as they marched to the Capitol.

And so, what are -- what do you hear in his wording here?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL AND STATE PROSECUTOR: Yes, it's hard to separate sort of the reality of the -- of the relationship there, Alisyn.

But it is jarring to hear the United States Supreme Court endorse and amplify some flavor of this conspiracy theory. Yes, it's only one justice but still, what Justice Thomas writes carries the weight and the imprimatur of the entire Supreme Court.

And if you want to understand just how unusual it is, as Joan mentioned, Justice Alito issued a separate dissent in this case, but that dissent was also conservative in its leanings. But it just focuses on the specific legal and procedural issue in front of the court.

Justice Thomas goes on this sort of detour -- this whole rift about election fraud. And at one point he says something along the lines of the fact that there's no evidence of election fraud doesn't prove that this was a clean election. I mean, that is textbook conspiracy theory logic and now it's got the stamp of the Supreme Court on it.

CAMEROTA: OK, let's talk about Donald Trump's taxes. So, this was another blow to Donald Trump and the Supreme Court gave the way for the Manhattan D.A. to be able to get them.

Is this a surprise, Joan?

BISKUPIC: No. What was surprising was how long it took them to get there. This case had been sitting with the justices since October and they were clearly torn behind the scenes. I expect that Chief Justice John Roberts let the dueling sides have their say and work it out. Try to figure out where they would -- what they would say.

But in the end, face it -- they had already ruled in July that Donald Trump had few grounds on which to challenge the grand jury subpoena for his tax records. And there was really not much more to say. It just took them four months to figure out how they were going to say it in a one-sentence order with no recorded dissent.

Now, I don't think everything was just very cheery and unanimous behind the scenes before we got here, so that was the surprise, Alisyn. But just think of how long Donald Trump has been resisting turning over his tax returns since the campaign.

CAMEROTA: Oh, years. I mean --

BISKUPIC: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- and asked about it routinely.

BISKUPIC: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And so, Elie, Donald Trump says that this is a fishing expedition, or it opens the door for a fishing expedition. But the fact that the Supreme Court ruled this way, does that tell us that there's evidence of some there, there?

HONIG: Yes. In order to issue a subpoena, a prosecutor has to have some basis for it. And if you look at the totality of this investigation that we're seeing from the Manhattan district attorney, you can see the warning signs sort of stacking up for Donald Trump.

We know the Manhattan D.A. has been talking to Michael Cohen. He has publicly confirmed that recently.

We know that the Manhattan D.A. has gone out and hired, specifically, a former federal prosecutor from my old office, the Southern District of New York, who specialized in organized crime to come in and lead this case.

Now we have this subpoena coming through, which is going to lead to Cy Vance, the Manhattan D.A., getting those tax returns.

The walls are closing in on Donald Trump and it's a whole new world for him. As Joan said, he spent the last four years sort of hiding from the law, using the protections of being the sitting president to fend off indictments -- potential indictments -- to fend off civil cases, to fend off subpoenas.

All of that is gone now. Now he's a private citizen like you or me. He's going to find he's in a whole different situation.

CAMEROTA: Joan, Elie, thank you both very much.

BISKUPIC: Thank you.

HONIG: Thanks, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: NEW DAY continues right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

CAMEROTA: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world.