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New Day

Sen. Gary Peters (D-MI) is Interviewed About the First Hearings on Insurrection at U.S. Capitol; Supreme Court Allows Release of Trump Tax Returns to New York Prosecutor; Dr. Anthony Fauci Discusses How Political Division in U.S. May Have Led to Decreased Effectiveness in Combating Coronavirus Spread; CDC Considering Guidance on Recommended Behavior for Those Who Have Been Vaccinated for Coronavirus. Aired 8- 8:30a ET

Aired February 23, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:00:00]

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY.

This morning, flags are flying at half-staff at the White House and the U.S. Capitol to mark a half-a-million American lives lost to coronavirus. It's a monumental loss made all the worse by knowing that in the U.S., it didn't have to happen this way. It didn't have to be this high. Dr. Anthony Fauci just told us NEW DAY this morning that political divisions contributed to that horrible death toll. Dr. Fauci also says that the CDC could soon relax the rules for people who are fully vaccinated. You'll hear more of that conversation with him in just a moment.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: President Biden marked the milestone overnight and implored the nation not to be numb to the suffering.

This morning, the first congressional hearing on the Capitol insurrection, key testimony from officials who have not spoken publicly until now.

CAMEROTA: But first, our conversation with Dr. Anthony Fauci this morning. We began by talking about the incredible loss of life from the pandemic.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: As you look back over this year, have you concluded that it was our political positions and political division that led to this death toll?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I certainly think that that's part of it. It was a very complicated situation, and one we're dealing with a very formidable virus to begin with. So anything that's not at its top peak in addressing it in the most appropriate way is going to lead to the kinds of things that we experience.

So I have said I believe it's the case, when you have a common enemy, you've got to pull together in the same way. It's like people on a crew team rowing in the same direction. You can't have disparate responses. And unfortunately, there's a lot of good about the differences in states and the ability and historically to do things on their own and the way that they seem they want to do it. But when you have such a common force, such a powerful force against you, this virus that's exerted such a toll on us, you have got to do it together in a unifying way, and not have any kind of political ideology, divisiveness getting in the way of what we're trying to do.

That's not the only thing that really was a problem, but that certainly, in my mind, having lived through it, was something that I found really to be unfortunately damaging.

CAMEROTA: When you go back, when we replay now exactly a year ago, President Trump saying we have it very much under control. We've had no deaths. The next day he said it's very well under control in our country. A few days later, he said everything is under control. We're very, very cool. We've done it very well. Everything is really under control. Do you think that his denial and lack of facts contributed to this level of loss?

FAUCI: Well, I think -- I'm uncomfortable going back and directly criticizing, but it's really almost self-evident, Alisyn, that when you're trying to signal the country to really buckle down and address the kinds of mitigation strategies that we put forth, the wearing of masks, the physical distancing, the avoiding congregate settings, the kinds of things that I and many of the other public health people who were there, trying to get the country to appreciate the things that we were trying to do all throughout the entire outbreak, and when signals come saying this isn't so bad, we're in pretty good shape, when we're saying we're not, we being the health people, that was not helpful, because the people who wanted to deny that this is something that was serious, when you get a signal from above that it might not be, then you don't do the kinds of things you need to do.

I still have flashing in my mind those scenes of when we were trying to tell people to really be careful and avoid congregate settings, and you used to see at night people crowded at bars inside, no masks. That was just asking for trouble. And, in fact, that's what we got, a lot of trouble.

CAMEROTA: And would you say that that was your lowest point during this past year?

FAUCI: There were several low points from the standpoint -- I don't have emotional reactions to these things. I've been through this so many times in different situations.

[08:05:00]

But it does intellectually pain me when I see things like pleading for people to do the kinds of things that you know work -- the mask wearing, the physical separation, and the denial. One of the things that I think, if I go through the multiple things that were actually painful for me was when you were seeing situations where there were hospitals that were almost overrun, where you were having 20 ICU beds in a particular hospital and 50 people who needed ICU care. And in those same regions there were people who were denying that this was going on, saying, oh, it's fake news. It's a hoax. How could you possibly say that when people in your own state, your own city, your own county are dying? To me, that just boggled me. And it still does. It still does, how reality can just be put aside and denying the seriousness of the situation we're in.

And here we are today, looking at 500,000 Americans who have died thus far. That's the proof of what actually has been going on. You can't deny that. And I guess you asked me what the thing that was the low point for me is when people deny the reality of what's actually happening.

CAMEROTA: This weekend, on Sunday, you told out Dana Bash that you could not recommend that fully vaccinated people get together with their grandchildren. And I know you've also said that you don't think fully vaccinated people should be dining indoors or going to the theater. Why not? If the vaccines are 95 percent effective, why not let people get back to some semblance of their old life?

FAUCI: Alisyn, we had a lot of discussions about that. When you look at what I would do, personally, I would feel more comfortable in something like that. But we want to make sure that when we make recommendations, when the CDC, who is the agency primarily responsible for collecting data and making public health recommendations, they want to make sure they sit down, talk about it, look at the data, and then come out with a recommendation based on the science.

It's so clear. You're absolutely right. And I've had discussions with this that were not very comfortable discussions, when you say, well, wait a minute. If I'm fully vaccinated and my daughter comes in the house and she's fully vaccinated, do we really have to have as stringent public health measures than you would if it was a stranger who was not vaccinated and you were not vaccinated? Common sense tells you that, in fact, you don't have to be as stringent in your public health measures.

But we want, we want to get firm recommendations from the CDC, which I believe will be coming soon. And I believe you are going to be hearing more of the recommendations of how you can relax the stringency of some of the things, particularly when you're dealing with something like your own personal family, when people have been vaccinated. I believe that that will be forthcoming pretty soon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: We hope so.

BERMAN: That was a big deal. It is forthcoming pretty soon and if it is more specific, that would be a big change and a big piece of information that could guide a lot of people.

CAMEROTA: I just want to know very soon like 10:00 a.m. or a month from now or six months from now. He didn't put a finer point --

BERMAN: It's about building expectations that all of a sudden, we're going to flip a switch and know everything. This is a pandemic that's killed 500,000 people over a year, and it surprised us every step of the way. So I think an expectation that there's going to all of a sudden in 10 days be something 100 percent specific, I'm not sure that's a reasonable expectation.

CAMEROTA: The reason I can flip a switch and know everything is because I can go like this.

Joining us now, CNN's chief medical Dr. Sanjay Gupta. See how I did that. There he is. That's the power of me. Sanjay, therein lies the rub, right? So Dr. Fauci was, I think, just honestly admitting that he feels differently when he is just talking about himself and his own personal family and common sense versus, for America, waiting for the CDC directive. But of course, that's frustrating for Americans because they are anxious.

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Sure. And part of this has to do with how you evaluate risk. By definition if you start to evaluate risk across larger and larger populations of people, you may become more risk averse. You may demand a higher level of evidence before you make recommendations.

It's just worth reminding people, the vaccine, when it was tested, it was tested basically to see how well it would decrease the likelihood of someone getting sick. And we know that it's really effective, 95 percent protective for that. But as far as actually still being able to carry the virus and maybe transmit the virus, that evidence was less clear. They didn't collect a lot of that evidence or analyze it, at least, in the immediate aftermath.

[08:10:09]

I can tell you that two things are happening. One, I think Dr. Fauci there in that interview was telegraphing to you something pretty important. Already they've made some recommendations saying people don't need to be quarantined if they've been vaccinated. That's an indication, right. If you don't need to be quarantined when you've been vaccinated, they're saying, look, we don't think you're that much of a threat of transmitting the virus. That's basically what they're saying. How does that now extrapolate into everything else that you asked him about?

I don't know when, Alisyn, but I think that we will see some recommendations that will be more lenient sometime soon. There is more data coming out as well. Mayo Clinic, I believe, has data coming out looking at 31,000 people who have been vaccinated and finding at day 36 they were 80 percent less likely to become infected. So I think when you pair all that together, I think we're going to see some favorable, more lenient recommendations for those who have been vaccinated.

BERMAN: Dr. Fauci made clear, he thinks he'll be seeing his daughter. He made, with a lot of body language, saying that he will be able to see his daughter who has been vaccinated soon, and there may be very well guidance to that. Dr. Osterholm who is a lot more gloomy than most people, who has been vaccinated, says he would visit his grandchildren.

CAMEROTA: There's the confusion. People are desperate to see their grandparents. So if Dr. Osterholm is doing it, can we do it this weekend? That's why -- I'm just channeling every man, John, as I so often do.

BERMAN: You are just like everybody.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: Sanjay, there is some new information. And one of the things, by the way, we should note, is that no one is talking about vaccinating school-aged children until months and months and months from now. So there will be a population not vaccinated for a long time even under a best case scenario. We are learning some new things, some clusters in Georgia, Sanjay. What are you seeing?

GUPTA: Yes, so first of all, that sort of follows the conversation we're just having about vaccinations. But let me talk about these clusters in Georgia first. This was from December 1st to January 22nd. They basically followed these schools, I think some 700 staff members and about 2,600 students. And they found nine clusters. Eight of them probably involved an educator to student. So these were adults then transmitting the virus to kids. It's not to say that people necessarily became ill, but they did find these clusters, and overall, you can look at the numbers. Still small numbers relatively speaking, but certainly something to pay attention to.

But this has raised this question again of vaccines. Should teachers be vaccinated then before going to schools? And it's a provocative discussion. People have strong opinions on this. But based on what we were just saying, again, we don't have the evidence to show that vaccines actually prevent people from transmitting the virus. So it's not clear that the vaccines would have actually prevented the situation that you just saw there on your screen. This is a question that needs to be answered. It will have to be answered. But I think that this debate over how best to safely open schools continues. We know it can be done even without vaccinations, but schools need a lot of things in place to make it happen.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you very much. Great to talk to you.

So later today, the first congressional hearing into the deadly insurrection at the U.S. capitol will take place. What will we learn? A senator leading one of those hearings joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:17:14]

BERMAN: This morning, the first congressional hearing on the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol. Joining me now is Democratic Senator Gary Peters. He is the chairman

of the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, one of the two committees holding the hearings today.

Senator, thanks so much for being with us.

This is a big deal. As I said, this is the first congressional hearing on the insurrection that happened on January 6th. And it is the first time we're going to hear from some key figures, figures who have not spoken out until now. And that includes the Metropolitan Police Department chief, the former Senate sergeant at arms, the former House sergeant at arms, and the former chief of the U.S. Capitol Police.

At the end of today, or by the end of today, what do you hope to know that you don't know now?

SEN. GARY PETERS (D-MI): Well, John, thanks.

There is a lot of questions that will be presented going forward, exactly what happened on that day, the timeline, what actions were taken? But I think it's also critical for us to take a look at what happened before, what sort of preparations were made? How did this horrific breach of the capitol occur?

Particularly given all of the information that was out in the open that this would be a large rally, there would be likely violence. A violent group was going to be coming to the Capitol. What sort of preparations were undertaken by the Capitol Police? What did the sergeants -- how were they involved in some of these decisions.

As you mentioned, this is the first time they're going to be telling us that publicly and get a better sense of exactly what happened. And, you know, hopefully what we get out of this is that we learn what went wrong, what went right, what are the best practices, what sort of changes and policy do we need? What sort of concerns do we have to address?

We just have to make sure this never, ever happens again. And in order to make sure that occurs, we have to get answers to a lot of questions.

BERMAN: Based on what you know now, do you see this as more of a failure of intelligence and information or a failure of application of what was known?

PETERS: Well, I think I will wait to see exactly what kind of testimony we get today, but I think you're going to find that all of those elements contributed to it. When you talk about intelligence, there's certainly intelligence products put out by intelligence services, our officers within those agencies. So what were they telling the Capitol police, the sergeants and others?

But, certainly, we also know there was just a lot out in public media. We saw the social media was pretty open. That wasn't -- you didn't need any sophisticated intelligence gathering to see what was happening there. We have to then look at the -- exactly what sort of tactics, what sort

of preparation was made. There's a lot of questions related to the National Guard, why they did not respond more quickly. These are important questions that deserve serious answers.

[08:20:01]

BERMAN: One of the things that's happening now, and it's happening at the U.S. Capitol among lawmakers, including Ron Johnson, Republican senator from Wisconsin, it's happening on opinion television, Tucker Carlson and his show fantasy island last night questioning whether or not what we saw happen actually happened, saying that it wasn't an armed insurrection, saying that it wasn't white supremacists. There were no white supremacists involved with that.

How do you deal with that type of revisionism? And what are the dangers of that line of thinking?

PETERS: Well, it's clearly dangerous. And it's clearly outrageous. I lived it. There were a lot of folks who lived that, were in the Capitol that day.

We have folks who have died. We have folks who have been injured severely, our Capitol police folks. There have been a series of arrests of folks that were there captured on video. Folks were part of violent extremist groups. The evidence is overwhelming.

So it is just outrageous to hear those types of comments, and really ignores the fact that this is a problem. We have a serious threat. We also have a serious threat from violent extremist groups. It's something I'm going to focus a great deal on as the chairman of Homeland Security Committee, as the rise of white supremacist groups and other extremist groups.

This is a real threat. We have to address it with the seriousness that it deserves. Putting out this false information undermines homeland security.

BERMAN: What do you think is behind the revisionism?

PETERS: I don't want to -- I can't speculate as to what gets into their minds but this continues a pattern of very dangerous talk by folks that are really undermining the security of this country. And certainly, we saw that in the lead up to the incident on the 6th of January.

This was very dangerous rhetoric that was undermining the very pinnings, the very foundation of our democratic republic. Democracy only survives when truth rules the day. We have to all agree on facts. We have to understand the truth of what we are dealing with.

And with individuals who tried to represent that and distort the truth, that sets you down a very dangerous path.

BERMAN: I want to point out, as Senator Klobuchar did with me yesterday, this is a bipartisan hearing you're holding today, along with Republicans Roy Blunt and Rob Portman, who lead the Republicans on that committee. This is something you all want to do and find very important today so there may be some outliers there. It isn't coming from them, that information.

How is this going to be different than the 9/11-style commission that Nancy Pelosi is now asking for? What more could a commission like that get than you can get today in this testimony?

PETERS: Well, I think the more folks that are asking questions, the more investigation that is done, the better. We're going to come up with a clear understanding of what happened and what actions need to be taken. So, you know, I don't see these in conflict. I think they're all complementary and we'll find out more information. We'll put forward policy ideas. We'll allocate resources if necessary. We'll be able to take concrete actions to make sure this never happens again.

So my experience has been when you start asking questions and you start getting answers, those answers usually lead to even more questions. So that's why the more folks that are thinking about it and working on this, the better.

BERMAN: I've got to let you go. At the end of today, will Neera Tanden still be the president's nominee to lead the Office of Management and Budget?

PETERS: Well, she's still the nominee and we're working right now to build support for her.

BERMAN: Senator Gary Peters, thanks for joining us this morning. We'll be watching these hearings very closely today.

PETERS: Good to be with you.

BERMAN: A big break for New York prosecutors trying for years to get their hands on the former president's tax returns. We have new information, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:27:59]

BERMAN: The Supreme Court clearing the way for New York prosecutors to obtain the former president's tax returns and financial information. This is a moment the former president always dreaded.

CNN's Pamela Brown explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A criminal investigation spanning more than two years that could threaten former President Donald Trump, his businesses and members of his family.

Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance investigating whether the Trump organization violated state laws, which could include tax fraud, insurance fraud or other illegal schemes.

Now a break in the case with Vance's office being granted access to eight years of Trump's tax returns and financial records, concluding a legal battle that lasts for 16 months, and two trips to the Supreme Court. Originally focusing on allegations of hush money payments made to two women who said they had sexual encounters with Trump before the 2016 election. Trump has denied the affairs and knowledge of the payments.

The Trump Organization has said it has paid all applicable taxes and is in compliance with the law. And Trump himself has called it a, quote, fishing expedition.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: This is a continuation of the witch hunt, the greatest witch hunt in history. There's never been anything like it where people want to examine every deal you've ever done to see if they can fund there's a comma out of place.

BROWN: Vance has been pursuing other lines of investigation as well. Prosecutors have subpoenaed one of Trump's creditors, Deutsche Bank, which has lent Trump more than $300 million, and interviewed two of its employees. They have also interviewed Trump's former personal attorney Michael Cohen who testified to Congress how Trump would exaggerate or minimize the value of his assets when seeking loans, insurance or favorable tax treatment.

REP. LACY CLAY (D-MO): Did the president or his company ever inflate assets or revenues?

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER TRUMP LAWYER: Yes.

CLAY: And was that done with the president's knowledge or direction?

COHEN: Everything was done with the knowledge.

[08:30:00]