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Health Officials Question AstraZeneca Vaccine Trial Data; 10 Killed In Mass Shooting At Colorado Grocery Store; Sidney Powell Argues No Reasonable People Would Believe Her Election Fraud Claims. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired March 23, 2021 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:31:19]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Developing overnight, a highly unusual statement from U.S. health officials raising concerns about the U.S. trial of AstraZeneca's coronavirus vaccine. They say it may have relied on, quote, "outdated information and given an incomplete view of its effectiveness."

Joining us now is CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, what does that mean -- an outdated -- that included outdated information? What does that mean?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, we're not sure yet. We're still looking into this. This was -- this was pretty unusual.

I mean, we've been through this a few times now, right, with these other vaccines and seen how the -- this data monitoring safety board interplays with the companies. And typically, they release data -- the data monitoring safety board says it's OK to release the data, the company does, and that's typically what happens. But I don't know if AstraZeneca sort of jumped the gun here or what exactly they're talking about.

Let me show you something that I think may be at play here with regard to the overall data. When we looked at Pfizer and Moderna, the way that they sort of present this data to us is they say OK, look, here we go.

You've got the Pfizer data. How many people got sick in the vaccinated group versus the placebo group? That's eight people who got sick in the vaccine group versus 162 in the placebo group. That's how they arrived at the 95 percent efficacy.

With Moderna, sort of similar -- smaller numbers. Ninety people got sick in the placebo group versus five in the vaccine group.

You see the picture that's being painted here. The vaccine is very protective. The data that we saw from AstraZeneca, so far, showed that five people became sick in the placebo group and nobody in the vaccinated group. Very small numbers. It doesn't really match with the 79 percent that they gave us. So whether this is outdated, whether it's incomplete, it's unclear to us.

Now I will say that it's not unusual for there to be sort of disagreements between the data monitoring safety board and the company. What is unusual here is that it's just played out so publicly. Usually, they call them up and say hey, your numbers don't match -- fix it and get back to us. Instead, they took the step of releasing a statement overnight on their Web site -- the NIH did -- basically drawing attention to this.

So we'll see what happens throughout the day today -- how AstraZeneca responds. But you get a sense of how small the numbers were, at least in what AstraZeneca presented.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Just to be clear, five people got sick in a trial of 32,000? There's -- no wonder that raises some eyebrows in terms of the data there.

GUPTA: That's right. I think that -- so it could be both incomplete and outdated. Maybe they only took some of their initial data and they didn't include the variants as they came on board. I don't know what's happening there. But obviously, this is not the sort of news AstraZeneca wants.

BERMAN: No.

GUPTA: I mean, this is -- it would be naive to think that this doesn't impact people's sort of confidence in this. But hopefully, they can clear this up quickly because this is a vaccine that people around the world are hoping for.

BERMAN: But that's the point -- it's around the world. I want people to understand that also.

And look, you want drug companies to be straight with people of the world no matter what. You hope there's no reason to question their numbers. And you want this vaccine available to as many people as possible.

But I do think, Sanjay, it's important to point out, and maybe you can do this, this is not a vaccine at this point that the U.S. is depending on really at all, correct?

GUPTA: Yes, that's right. And it's really interesting -- I mean, just having followed this from the very beginning.

AstraZeneca was a vaccine that many people, including the United States, initially thought was going to be sort of one that they would depend on. But as you well know, Pfizer and Moderna sort of came on board much earlier. We know that there's going to be 300 million doses of each of those vaccines that are going to be available over the summer, so that alone would be 300 million people because they're two- dose vaccines.

[07:35:09]

So, you know, it's not something -- the AstraZeneca vaccine is not one that we're totally dependent on. We also have the Johnson & Johnson vaccine that's been authorized, although, there again, the rollout has been, I think, objectively slower than anyone sort of hoped or predicted.

So -- but even without that, if you have 300 million people potentially being vaccinated with Pfizer and Moderna, those are the numbers that I think the United States has sort of been relying on.

CAMEROTA: Sanjay, very exciting day for me. Yesterday, I got vaccinated.

GUPTA: Yes?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: It's exciting for all of us.

GUPTA: Good for you.

CAMEROTA: Well, it should be. I got the Moderna. It was the easiest thing in the world. I mean, once you get an appointment, which is the hardest part, it's the easiest thing in the world.

It was -- I -- OK, so here, you know, I kind of ham it up a little. Like I pretend that it hurts right there. It didn't hurt at all. An allergy shot hurts more. It was just a piece of cake and I feel great.

GUPTA: Yes, you reacted a few seconds after the needle went in, so I could tell you were sort of hamming it up there. Did you feel OK? So, did you feel OK a few hours after or this morning?

CAMEROTA: I feel great. And by the way, I am somebody who in the past has had an anaphylactic reaction -- not to a vaccine, but to shellfish.

So I, like, disclosed all of this and told this great yarn about my brush with anaphylaxis and the woman was like yes, but that was from an eggroll. Like, why are you telling me? I said I thought I was supposed to tell you. She completely dismissed it out of hand.

So I had no reaction and it was fine.

BERMAN: Was -- I think Connecticut which is, by the way, where you got it -- they have reduced their age limits to 29, which is why you were able to get it?

CAMEROTA: Right. That was why I was able to get it yesterday.

BERMAN: So that 29-year-olds can go in.

CAMEROTA: Yes, finally. I've been waiting, you know -- yes. It was great. I mean, I just -- it's --

GUPTA: Good for you.

CAMEROTA: I feel -- it is liberating. I mean, it is liberating, you know. I know I need a second shot a month from now but it just feels like maybe we'll see our way out of this.

GUPTA: Yes. You know, it's funny. I felt the same way. I never really thought that I would get sick. I'm being very careful and all that sort of stuff.

But you're right. That liberating feeling that you're describing, it's -- that surprised me a little bit. It was sort of a little bit of a weight off the shoulders -- lifted off -- that I didn't even really fully appreciate was there.

So I'm happy for you.

CAMEROTA: Thanks, Sanjay. Thanks so much. Thanks for everything.

GUPTA: John, when they do the 30-year-olds --

BERMAN: I know.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

GUPTA: -- you'll be next.

CAMEROTA: When it gets older, then John will be --

BERMAN: Exactly.

CAMEROTA: -- eligible. That's how it works.

Thanks so much, Sanjay. We'll talk to you next hour, as well.

GUPTA: You got it. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: OK, to our top story. Ten people gunned down in a supermarket, the second mass shooting in America in less than a week. We have all the latest for you on the investigation, next.

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[07:42:02]

BERMAN: Ten people killed in a mass shooting in a grocery store in Boulder, Colorado, including a police officer. Authorities say they do have a suspect in custody but the shooter's motive not known.

Joining us now, CNN senior law enforcement analyst Andrew McCabe. He's the former deputy director of the FBI. And, CNN law enforcement analyst Charles Ramsey. He's the former Philadelphia police commissioner and Washington, D.C. police chief.

Andy, I want to start with you. The investigation -- what is most important? We're expecting to hear in a couple of hours from law enforcement. What's the most important unknown at this point?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR, FBI: Well, John, that's a tough one. There's a lot of unknowns at this point.

I mean, obviously, the Boulder P.D., along with assistants from any number of different law enforcement agencies, to include the FBI, are going through that crime scene very, very carefully right now to collect any and all forensic evidence necessary to build this case.

At the same time, a group of investigators should be really diving deep into the background of this shooter whose identity has not been released yet but certainly, law enforcement knows who he is. They should be looking -- likely looking to execute search warrants at his residence, maybe on his vehicle, maybe at his place of work.

They'll be talking to all of his family members and known associates. They'll be looking at his social media if he has any. They'll be looking at anything he's written or his browsing history on his Internet devices just to try to see if we can find out why this person engaged in the attack that he did yesterday.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I mean, that's -- therein lies the rub, Commissioner. I feel like it helps that he's alive -- that this suspect is alive -- that investigators can ask him directly.

But we always wait for the investigation as though that's going to give us some wisdom into why somebody would take an assault-style rifle into a grocery store and kill 10 people. We always act as though maybe this time we'll find the clue that will keep it from happening again. But I don't know. I just -- you know, this morning I'm feeling pessimistic that these kinds of clues ever help us prevent the next one.

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER PHILADELPHIA POLICE COMMISSIONER, FORMER WASHINGTON, D.C. POLICE CHIEF (via Cisco Webex): Well, they may or may not ever find the actual motive but he is alive and I'm sure they're interviewing him. Going through his social media, interviewing friends and relatives to see whether or not they can determine what could be a motive in this case.

Sometimes you're successful in finding a motive; other times, perhaps, you're not. But you still have to do everything you can to try to find out exactly what took place and why it took place.

And as Andy mentioned, right now, they're processing the scene. He is alive. There will be a trial.

So they will be very meticulous in terms of going through the crime scene. They'll hold it as long as they have to so I would not look for that scene to be released anytime soon. They are going to definitely take their time.

But there's an awful lot of work that has to be done. This is really still in the early stages of the investigation.

[07:45:02]

BERMAN: The suspect's alive, 10 people are dead. Eight people are dead in Georgia, Andy, from a mass shooting last week.

You know, I don't know. We took a year off from high-profile mass shootings with the pandemic but it seems that it's back on. You know, 2021, back on. Mass shootings back on.

You've done a ton of work in terms of guns. People, I think, forget that the FBI is so heavily involved in gun sales and gun safety, Andy.

So now that we have 10 dead today, eight dead last week, what's going to keep us from having 20, 30, 40 over the next few months now that this does seem to be back on?

MCCABE: Absolutely nothing. Nothing is going to keep this from happening again under our current situation, under our current -- the laws that we currently live under. This has become a part of the American experience.

And let's not forget, it's completely unique to us. There's not another similar country on earth that experiences the same number -- the frequency of mass shootings as we do. And it is directly attributable to the profusion and the availability of guns, particularly high-powered assault-style weapons, and how easily pretty much anyone can acquire them here in this country.

You know, you have -- there are all kinds of motivators or things that impact and potentially drive some of these people to these terrible actions. There are some who are motivated by ideology. There are some who are driven by mental illness. There are some whose motives we'll never know.

But the fact is when you combine that range of motives with the very, very easy access to high-powered, highly-destructive weapons, you have a mixture that leads you to right where we are, which is a high frequency of mass shooting events. It is just entirely foreseeable and tragic every single time.

CAMEROTA: And by the way, Commissioner, Boulder tried to fix this. Boulder tried to keep their community safe.

I think in 2018, they passed their own rules banning the assault-style rifles like the AR-15 that we know was used in this one. And on Friday, a state district judge overruled that. He said that Boulder couldn't keep their own community safe. Couldn't decide their own rules to keep their community safe.

And I know that you, as a police officer, as a commissioner -- this is -- this is obviously a police officer's worst nightmare when people with ill intent have guns on them and it just makes your job so much harder.

RAMSEY: Well, it does make it harder. But again, that's the insanity that's going on right now. I mean, listen, we'll hear the typical sound bites from elected officials -- you know, thoughts and prayers and all that sort of thing. But the end result will be nothing will change, nothing will happen.

You know, we're not going to be able to pray our way out of this. We have to take action and that action is just not going to take place, unfortunately, in my opinion. And so, here we are.

And, I mean, John mentioned that this is the first -- or second mass shooting this year. But you have to remember -- I mean, last year, homicides were up across the country. We have mass shootings going in slow motion on streets in our cities across America every single day and nothing's done. And it's rarely reported on unless it's a mass shooting.

And so, you know, gun violence is a problem and it's going to continue to be a problem and those people that we put in positions of authority really don't do anything to really stop it.

I mean, your guest earlier, his heart's in the right place. But it's not enough of them to really do anything worthwhile. They'll just pay lip service to it and move on and we'll be having this conversation again.

BERMAN: I hope not. I mean, look, I hear you. And there's --

RAMSEY: Very little.

BERMAN: I know. There's just -- you know, if history proves anything, there's no reason for optimism here that something will get done. But once, maybe it will -- maybe once.

RAMSEY: Well --

BERMAN: Maybe once, maybe soon. And I don't want you --

RAMSEY: -- if Sandy Hook didn't move the needle, John -- if Parkland didn't move the needle, don't think that Boulder, Colorado's going to move the needle.

I mean, I lost total faith after Sandy Hook. I mean, I did. If the slaughter of all those babies didn't make us take action then, believe me, this is not going to make it happen either. It's a shame. I hope it does, but I don't have much hope.

BERMAN: Charles Ramsey, Andy McCabe, appreciate you both being with us this morning.

So, a stunning admission from former President Trump's attorney Sidney Powell. How she's trying to explain away her bogus election fraud claims, next.

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[07:53:58]

CAMEROTA: Former President Trump's attorney, Sidney Powell, who relentlessly spread absurd and baseless claims about election fraud, now says no reasonable person should have believed her. That's her best attempt to dismiss a $1.3 billion defamation lawsuit against her.

Joining us now is CNN legal analyst and Republican election lawyer, Ben Ginsberg.

How about that one, Ben? How about the fact that now her lawyers -- OK, after all the crazy stuff at her press conferences with Giuliani about Venezuela, about -- I mean, I can't even remember the stuff. My brain actually could not ever compute what she was saying so I actually can't keep it.

But here's what the judge -- her lawyer now says. "Reasonable people would not accept such statements as fact but view them only as claims that await testing by the courts through the adversary process."

How about that defense?

BEN GINSBERG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, REPUBLICAN ELECTION LAWYER (via Skype): Well, it's interesting. You know, truth is the ultimate defense in a libel case. So all of a sudden in this brief they're saying no, pay no attention to this. This was opinion and not necessarily fact.

[07:55:07]

So they teach you in law school that if you don't have the facts in the -- in a case, you pound the law. And if you don't have the law, you pound the facts. And if you don't have either the law or the facts, you pound the table. So this is kind of a table pounder of a -- of a brief.

BERMAN: Ben, it also rings familiar to an argument that had been made by Fox in regards to Tucker Carlson where they said, quote -- I mean, it's almost word-for-word -- say "Would a reasonable viewer be coming here and thinking this is where I'm going to be hearing the news of the day?"

As if to say people get -- people get that Sidney Powell was making stuff up as her argument, and the Fox argument is that people get that Tucker is saying things that aren't factual, so they can say whatever they want.

Is that the law?

GINSBERG: Well, they've got a basic contradiction here. For purposes of defending the defamation cases, they're saying it's opinion and we're kind of making it up and adding to the rhetorical debate. But the cases they filed in court can't be based on opinion. They have to be based on fact or you're subject to sanctions.

And while they cite declarations that were filed in courts by their -- by what they termed their experts, no court bought for a second any of those declarations that she's using in support of the factual stuff. So there is a built-in contradiction to what her -- what her defense is.

CAMEROTA: Right, but tell that to the 800 insurrectionists who made it inside the U.S. Capitol -- who did believe it. Maybe they weren't reasonable people and I guess that what her lawyers are saying is that no reasonable, sane, smart people would believe it, but violent people did.

GINSBERG: Yes, and the long-term cost to the system in people believing in the elections is -- it has definitely taken a hit as well, which is a serious long-term play.

But there are also things to remember about this. That this can go forward with discovery if she doesn't win the motion to dismiss. And the thing about discovery is that there is the ability to prove whether a statement she made or made with knowing disregard of the truth. That's what the discovery process is about.

It's also not clear for how long she was Donald Trump's attorney. They pulled back from her being one of his lawyers in late-November. Yet, in December, there was the big meeting that's been reported on CNN and other places about them going forward in their defense.

If she wasn't his lawyer at that point, it's not a privileged attorney-client conversation -- all subject to discovery. All relevant to Dominion saying that they've been injured by the false charges.

CAMEROTA: But who will make the decision? If that isn't privileged stuff who will say whether she was actually his attorney or not?

GINSBERG: Well, there'll be a factual record of that. You have to have letters of engagement that determine whether they were clients. There will be the statements that were public that she was no longer part of the defense team as she was filing her four lawsuits about the alleged rigged election.

And it's in Donald Trump's interest, perhaps, to go forward with the case to have her lose the motion to dismiss so he can prove once and for all his statements that the elections were rigged.

BERMAN: I think you're being glib there, Ben --

GINSBERG: I am.

BERMAN: -- but what's the -- what's the legal/political peril for the former president in this?

GINSBERG: Well, the flip-side of that, which is everything he was saying can be proven to be false in this case. In other words, if Dominion wins and shows that the election results were valid -- which, by the way, was the outcome of the Georgia recounts and a Michigan recount -- then it goes to the ultimate falsity of Donald Trump saying the elections were rigged and fraudulent.

So this is an important case, actually, for either proving or disproving the validity of our elections.

CAMEROTA: We know you'll be watching it, as we will, Ben. Thank you very much for all of the information.

GINSBERG: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: We have some breaking news right now on the mass shooting in Boulder, Colorado. NEW DAY continues right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BERMAN: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. This is NEW DAY.

And the breaking news this morning, 10 people, including a police officer with seven children, shot and killed in Boulder, Colorado. It happened at the grocery store there.

A senior law enforcement source tells CNN the shooter used an AR-style rifle. Police, this morning, say the gunman is in custody but they don't know, or at least what they're not telling us yet is what the shooter's motive was.

CAMEROTA: This mass shooting happened less than a week after the mass shootings in the Atlanta area that left eight people dead.