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Chauvin's Former Supervisor: Restraint Should Have Ended when Floyd Stopped Resisting; Sources: Gaetz Showed Nude Photos of Women He Said He Slept With to Fellow Lawmakers; Justice Department Pursuing Allegations Gaetz May Have Used Cash and Drugs in Dealings with Young Women; Biden Names 5 Cabinet Secretaries to Sell Infrastructure & Jobs Plan. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired April 02, 2021 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The moments when paramedics arrived and George Floyd appeared unresponsive in May 2020 coming into clear focus.

[05:59:26]

DEREK CHAUVIN, FORMER MINNEAPOLIS POLICE OFFICER: We just had to hold the guy down. He was going crazy.

DEREK SMITH, PARAMEDIC: In lay terms, I thought he was dead.

SGT. DAVID PLEOGER (RET.), MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT: When Mr. Floyd was no longer offering up any resistance to the officers, they could have ended the restraint.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors are looking into a relationship with a woman that began when she was just 17.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sex trafficking from a relationship with one minor is a serious offense, in and of itself. But to facilitate that sort of activity, it just makes it a hundred times worse.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. It is Friday, April 2, 6 a.m. here in New York. John Berman is off. John Avlon is here. Great to see you.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST/ANCHOR: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: Happy Friday.

AVLON: Right.

CAMEROTA: OK, there was more gripping testimony and audio from witnesses in the Derek Chauvin murder trial. Jurors got to hear Chauvin explain himself, his version, of what happened during the deadly encounter with George Floyd.

In a phone call to his then-supervisor, Chauvin made no mention of pinning George Floyd's neck under his knee. That supervisor taking the stand, saying the police officers should have stopped restraining Floyd when he stopped resisting.

There was also tearful testimony from George Floyd's girlfriend about their relationship, how they met, and how they both struggled with opioid addiction.

AVLON: Also developing this morning, the growing scandal surrounding Florida Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz. CNN has learned federal investigators are examining whether his involvement with young women, who may have been recruited online, broke sex trafficking and prostitution laws and whether Gaetz used federal campaign money and drugs in his dealing with these young women.

Separate sources tell CNN that Gaetz bragged about his sexual exploits with fellow lawmakers, showing them nude pictures, even on the floor of the House of Representatives.

But we begin with the trial that is gripping the nation.

CNN's Josh Campbell live in Minneapolis with our top story -- Josh.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good morning to you.

The defense here was dealt a serious blow yesterday. A retired senior officer testified that the use of force against George Floyd should have stopped once he was under control. That witness and others providing new insight into the death of George Floyd here in Minneapolis last May.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAMPBELL (voice-over): The critical moments after George Floyd was taken away in an ambulance are coming into focus as prosecutors share the audio of a call just after then-Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin removed his knee from Floyd's neck.

CHAUVIN: We just had to hold the guy down. He was -- was going crazy. Wouldn't go in the -- shutting off here in a moment -- wouldn't go in the back of the squad car.

CAMPBELL: Chauvin spoke to supervising sergeant David Pleoger, who took the stand on Thursday.

STEVE SCHLEICHER, PROSECUTOR: Did he mention anything about putting his knee on Mr. Floyd's neck or back?

PLEOGER: No.

SCHLEICHER: Did you get any sense from the defendant how long this restraint lasted?

PLEOGER: No, I didn't have any idea. CAMPBELL: Pleoger, who has since retired, recalled driving to the

scene after speaking with Chauvin. He asked officers to get information from witnesses. Chauvin's response?

CHAUVIN: We can try. They're pretty -- all pretty hostile.

CAMPBELL: Pleoger testified it wasn't until after they arrived at the hospital that he learned Chauvin had placed his knee on George Floyd's neck.

SCHLEICHER: Do you have an opinion as to when the restraint of Mr. Floyd should have ended in this encounter?

PLEOGER; Yes.

SCHLEICHER: When is it?

PLEOGER: When Mr. Floyd was no longer offering up any resistance to the officers, they could have ended their restraint.

CAMPBELL: The two medics who responded to the scene described in detail the lifesaving measures they tried on Floyd. Paramedic Derek Smith checked Floyd's pulse and pupils, while Chauvin still had his knee on Floyd. He testified Floyd did not appear to be breathing or moving.

SMITH: Did not detect a pulse. In lay terms, I thought he was dead.

CAMPBELL: Even then the paramedics had to ask Chauvin to remove his knee.

Seth Ratner testified that when his team stopped the ambulance a few blocks away to try to revive Floyd, Floyd's heart was still stopped. They never regained a pulse.

The court also heard emotional testimony from Courteney Ross, Floyd's girlfriend of nearly three years. She told the story of how they met in August 2017 at the Salvation Army shelter where Floyd worked.

COURTENEY ROSS, GEORGE FLOYD'S GIRLFRIEND: He said, "Can I pray with you?" And this kind person just to come up to me and say, "Can I pray with you," when I felt alone in this lobby. It was so sweet.

CAMPBELL: Chauvin's defense focusing on Floyd's alleged past drug use, arguing that it was drugs in Floyd's system that killed him and not Chauvin's actions. Chauvin's attorney questioned Ross about an overdose that sent Floyd to the hospital just two months before his death.

ERIC NELSON, DEREK CHAUVIN'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You did not know that he had taken heroin at that time?

ROSS: No.

NELSON: It was your belief that Mr. Floyd started using again about two weeks prior to his death, correct? ROSS: I noticed a change in his behavior, yes.

CAMPBELL: Ross shared the couple's struggle with opioids.

ROSS: We got addicted and -- and tried really hard to break that addiction many times.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[06:05:08]

CAMPBELL: Now it's important to note that an autopsy report said that drug use was significant but listed Floyd's cause of death as heart failure during that restraint.

Now, people may be wondering, what is it like inside that courtroom? I can tell you, I was in there yesterday, seated behind Derek Chauvin. He remained still throughout much of the trial, but interestingly, whenever his own audio and video was played for the courtroom, his voice coming through those speakers, he started fidgeting wildly, his feet almost out of control.

For their part, the jurors have remained laser-focused in this trial. I've been involved in a lot of trials. I've never seen a group of jurors so focused on the exhibits, on the witnesses. This group no doubt understanding the gravity of the decision that awaits them in this trial that is being watched around the world -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: It is so helpful to have you in the courtroom to give us that kind of color. Thank you very much. We'll come back to you in the program.

Joining us now is CNN legal analyst Areva Martin. She's a civil rights attorney. Also with us, retired LAPD police sergeant Cheryl Dorsey. She's the author of "Black and Blue."

Sergeant Dorsey, I want to start with you, and I want to play here Chauvin's call to his supervisor. OK? So this is where he's recapping what has just happened. A man has just died under his knee, and here is how he communicates that to his supervisor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHAUVIN: He's already there. Yes, I was just going to call you and have you come out to our scene here.

Not really, but we just had to hold the guy down. He was -- was going crazy. Wouldn't go in the -- shutting off for a minute -- wouldn't go in the back of the squad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Yes, so what you heard there was, he was going crazy. He wouldn't go in the back of the squad car. Doesn't mention that his knee was on his neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. What did you hear, Sergeant? CHERYL DORSEY, RETIRED LAPD POLICE SERGEANT: So we hear an officer

lying to his supervisor, and we know that he was trying to mitigate and minimize that use of force. He wasn't forthright when he didn't give all of the details. He's already trying to dissuade the supervisor from looking for witnesses once he arrived on scene. Yes, the crowd, they're not really cooperating. They're really uncooperative, and they're unruly.

And Mr. Floyd was, you know, crazy. Flailing around, and we couldn't get him in the black of the police car. All a lie, because he was in the back of a police car. And we know from the supervisor's testimony that he was under control once the handcuffs went on.

And so once the handcuffs go on, everything else that happened after that is problematic and going to be hard for them to explain.

AVLON: Areva, speaking of his supervisor, we heard testimony from George Floyd's -- sorry, from the officer's supervisor yesterday, and I want to play what he said. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHLEICHER: Do you have an opinion as to when the restraint of Mr. Floyd should have ended in this encounter?

PLEOGER; Yes.

SCHLEICHER: When is it?

PLEOGER: When Mr. Floyd was no longer offering up any resistance to the officers, they could have ended their restraint.

SCHLEICHER: And that was after he was handcuffed and on the ground and no longer resisting?

PLEOGER: Correct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: We've heard from his supervisor, from the EMTs. How significant is it that we haven't heard any members of law enforcement to date defend Derek Chauvin?

AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think it's very significant, John. You know from reporting on these cases, in these high-profile cases, typically, we see police officers come to the aid. They come and support the actions of police officers. We haven't seen that in this case at all.

And yesterday, we saw this sergeant who worked for the police department, not a paid expert, give devastating testimony about the use of force.

We knew it was coming. We know it's a central part of this case in terms of excessive force. It came a little earlier than expected. And if you note the defense attorney didn't seem all prepared for it. In fact, had to object a little later in that testimony as to voir dire of the sergeant to try to establish that, foundationally, he wasn't in a position to give that use of force testimony.

The judge ultimately let the sergeant give that narrow opinion that, yes, once the handcuffs were on, the -- the restraint should have ended immediately. It didn't, and, therefore, leaving the jurors hearing that excessive force was used against Mr. Floyd. Very devastating for the defense's position.

CAMEROTA: Sergeant Dorsey, I know you're not a lawyer, but it's not going well so far for Derek Chauvin. It doesn't appear to be. There's -- as John just said, there's nobody defending his position. There's nobody justifying what he did.

All that's happening so far is that everybody else on the stand is showing their humanity, showing their empathy, showing their guilt over what happened, and he is being, at the moment, depicted as kind of a psychopath, to tell you the truth.

[06:10:03]

I mean -- but who knows what happens when -- when the case turns and when the defense makes their case. Would you expect police officers to come to his defense? I mean, what -- what -- what is the dynamic among that group of police officers that we see in that video, from your eyes?

DORSEY: Well, for -- for the officers that were on scene, certainly they acquiesced misconduct. The people who are under oath, who are testifying under the penalty of perjury, are speaking truthfully and honestly about the use of force and the fact that it was unnecessary. And so no one can defend the indefensible.

And we hear now from credible professionals who you cannot argue with. When a paramedic says that was a dead man he was kneeling on, you've got to believe him.

When a firefighter, although off-duty, says, I could have rendered aid, and they wouldn't allow me. I could tell that the man, Mr. Floyd, was in distress. They wouldn't allow me to intervene. You've got to give weight to that testimony.

And so what Mr. Chauvin did was indefensible, and no police officer in their right mind is going to acquiesce what was misconduct and, ultimately, murder.

AVLON: Sometimes the lack of defense is an indication it's indefensible.

Areva, you know, at the opening of this week, we heard the defense try to demonize George Floyd, try to "other" him. Particularly by raising the specter of drugs and saying that maybe that is what led to his death.

But we saw the prosecution had a judo move that yesterday, putting his girlfriend on the stand to talk about their shared struggle with opioids. I want to play that clip for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROSS: Both Floyd and I are -- our story, it's a -- it's a classic story of how many people get addicted to opioids. We both suffered from chronic pain. Mine was in my neck, and his was in his back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: Were you surprised to see the prosecution take this approach? And do you think it will be effective?

DORSEY: Not surprised by it, John. I thought it was a brilliant approach. It's called fronting. It's when prosecutors know there's some evidence that's going to come out in a trial that might be damning or may be difficult for jurors to hear. They get it out first. They get it out in their case. They take the sting out of their testimony. Therefore, preventing the defense from using it in a way that could be devastating.

And I think Ms. Ross, so poised, even though she was very emotional, told a story that so many Americans can relate to, which is getting addicted to pain medication, because you started out in some kind of chronic pain.

So these weren't people that were just on the streets, you know, looking for illegal drugs. And I think the way she told the story really allowed jurors to connect with her and the pain that she experienced, not just for Mr. Floyd but for herself. And I think that was really well done by the prosecution and hurt the defense's case.

CAMEROTA: But Areva, very quickly, do you think the fact that she didn't know about his heroin overdose, which is what the defense brought out, do you think that hurts the prosecution's case?

MARTIN: I think that was a good move on the part of the defense to bring that out. I wish the prosecution had allowed her to tell that part of the story during her testimony.

But one thing we should note, Alisyn, is the defense's position is that he had an overdose in May in the same way that he had in March. But the problem with that argument is, after that overdose in March, he walked out of that hospital. He was doing just fine. He continued to engage in physical activities.

And so the argument that the overdose is the cause of his death, I don't think is going to work.

And in the state of Minnesota, all that prosecution has to prove is that the actions of Chauvin were a substantial cause of his death, and that gets them to the conviction that they're going for in this case.

CAMEROTA: Ladies, really helpful. Sergeant Dorsey, Areva Martin, thank you both very much for your expertise.

Coming up, more stunning allegations against Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz. What a source says he was showing lawmakers on the House floor and bragging about, as well as these -- all of these allegations. There's more details coming out this morning.

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[06:18:21]

AVLON: Stunning developments this morning in the growing and, frankly, sleazy scandal surrounding Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz. Sources telling CNN he showed nude photos and videos of women he allegedly slept with to fellow lawmakers under the Capitol dome.

CNN's Lauren Fox live on Capitol Hill with the latest.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, it's very important to clarify here that this is separate from that ongoing Department of Justice investigation into whether or not Matt Gaetz had a sexual relationship with a 17-year-old.

These issues stem from just his time in Congress. And there's nothing from our reporting that revealed anything that he had allegedly done here is illegal, but I do want to underscore, because I think it speaks to his reputation on Capitol Hill.

There were three sources who told CNN that Gaetz had a reputation for bragging about his sexual exploits with women. And these sources said that Gaetz would show images of women he said he had slept with to his colleagues.

Two of the sources that CNN spoke with had seen these images directly. And one of these interactions, a source said, happened on the House floor.

Now another source told CNN that this interaction happened just off of the House floor but, still, at the U.S. Capitol. And that image was of a woman and a hula hoop.

Now, these nude images were something that these lawmakers, you know, said that they were -- they were disturbed by. They were surprised that they were being shown these images.

But I just want to underscore here that this is separate from that ongoing DOJ investigation, and this is -- there's no indication that these images were of minors. I think that's another important thing to underscore here.

This was merely lawmakers talking about the fact that, you know, this was a reputation that Gaetz had on Capitol Hill. Again, three sources telling CNN that he had a reputation for bragging about his sexual exploits with women he said he had slept with -- John.

[06:25:18]

CAMEROTA: I'll take it, Lauren. Thank you very much for all of that. Really appreciate that reporting. And all of that is just one sordid aspect of this story. There are

also major developments in the Justice Department investigation into Congressman Gaetz.

Sources tell CNN that federal investigators are looking into whether cash, drugs and campaign funds were used to pay for the travel and expenses of the young women the congressman was allegedly having sex with.

Joining us now, CNN political analyst Margaret Talev. She's a managing editor at Axios. And CNN legal analyst Elie Honig. He's a former state and federal prosecutor.

Elie, it doesn't get any more tawdry than these allegations. I mean, OK? And it just gets worse. Every day we find out more about what the DOJ is looking into.

But can you just break it down for us in simple terms? What is Congressman Gaetz being accused of here?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: First of all, Alisyn, I'd just like to say, Wow. I mean, when a new case comes into a prosecutor's office, a supervisor has to decide which unit am I going to assign this to? I don't even know where this one would go. It could go to the child protection unit. It could go to the narcotics unit. It could go to the corruption and campaign finance unit.

As much as Matt Gaetz has turned himself into this clownish figure, I do want to stress, first of all, there's a lot of facts we still need to know.

Second of all, these are very serious charges. For example, the most serious charge here is the allegation that he transported young women, young girls across state lines for sexual purposes. If that is proved, he is looking at a ten-year mandatory minimum sentence, and there's no parole in the federal system.

So we're talking about very serious charges here. Let's see how the investigation plays out. But Matt Gaetz is in a very, very difficult position right now.

CAMEROTA: And very quickly, it is young women. I mean, it's 17 -- it's not young girls. It's young women as far as we know. Seventeen is the youngest that we've heard. Just want to get that out there.

AVLON: Margaret, I want to talk about the politics of all this. Because look, Congressman Gaetz has an outsized reputation for a congressman elected in 2016. He was one of ex-President Trump's most biggest, most public defenders.

Yet he seems to be pretty isolated within the Republican conference. I want to give you two examples of that.

One, in 2017 -- this is a little stunning and perhaps foreshadowing -- Mr. Gaetz was the only member of Congress to vote against a law that gave the federal government more power and money to fight human trafficking.

The second thing has to do with the current alignment of people rushing to his defense, which seems to be isolated to Marjorie Taylor Greene and Jim Jordan. What does this show about the way Matt Gaetz is actually regarded by his Republican colleagues?

MARGARET TALEV, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: (AUDIO GAP) perspective, and obviously, the criminal investigation at this point is a much more serious matter for the congressman.

But from a political perspective, he's in a situation where he's not only sort of universally loved by the House Democrats, by the Democrats in Congress, but he doesn't have a lot of friends inside the Republican caucus. And part of that is because he's been such an agitator against leadership. Kind of political stunts. So on and so forth.

So he's got a couple of members in the House Freedom Caucus. And you've seen the Republican leader, Kevin McCarthy, kind of, you know, take a step back. He's not exactly defending him. He's -- he hasn't -- he's not stripping committee assignments yet. Democrats pushing for that.

But look, the more -- the faster these revelations or, you know, dribs and drabs come out about the scope of the investigation, plus sort of the parallel revelations. There are a lot of members and staffers in Congress right now very eager to tell stories about his behavior in Congress.

So while these are sort of parallel revelations, they're all, you know -- one is going to feed on the other, and that's the moment that we're in right now.

CAMEROTA: OK. Elie, let me read Matt Gaetz's statement. This was last night to "The New York Times" about this. "Matt Gaetz has never paid for sex. Matt Gaetz refutes all of the disgusting allegations completely. Matt Gaetz has never, ever been on any such websites whatsoever." Allegedly, there are websites where you can pay women to go on dates with you. "Matt Gaetz cherishes the relationships in his past and looks forward to marrying the love of his life."

That's -- I believe he's engaged. So one of the things that I've heard in Congress is, well, you know what? If this gets bad, it might go to the Ethics Committee. No, if this gets bad, he's looking at what? I mean, if these allegations are proven, what's the penalty here?

HONIG: Yes, the Ethics Committee is the least of his worries. Child sex trafficking, trafficking a person under the age of 18 across a state line for sexual purposes, has a ten-year mandatory minimum.

I.D. theft, which is another of the allegations, that he was involved with this guy Greenberg and using people's driver's licenses and personal identifying information. That carries a two-year mandatory minimum.

So we're looking at deadly serious penalties. [06:25:04]

Another important point here. Matt Gaetz will not have the ability to claim this was a witch hunt, a politically-motivated witch hunt, because important detail. This investigation started during the last couple of months of the Donald Trump administration.

AVLON: That is an essential fact to not buying into the idea that this is a witch hunt.

All right. I want to go deeper into politics around infrastructure, because there are scandals and there are substance, Margaret. And we don't want to ignore the substance.

The battle lines are being drawn, though, between the Biden administration going all in to pass this massive infrastructure bill and the Republican opposition.

On the Biden side, not only did they have their first cabinet meeting yesterday, but Biden basically deputized a small number of cabinet officials to sell his infrastructure plan. And these included Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm, Marcia Fudge from hudge [SIC] -- Marcia Fudge from HUD, Marty Walsh from Labor, and Gina Raimondo at Commerce.

These are the folks who are playing on the front lines to sell this bill.

On the Republican side, you're seeing a lot of opposition, despite members wanting things for their own districts. And some of the opposition and the framing seems to be symbolized by Mitch McConnell in a statement he made yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): He's a first-rate person. Nevertheless, this is a bold left-wing administration. I don't think they have a mandate to do what they're doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: What's fascinating there is you see McConnell acknowledging, calling President Biden a first-rate person but saying his administration is far left, and he's going to block it. How do you see the politics of this playing out right now?

TALEV: The politics of this are really interesting, because the idea of infrastructure is really popular, you know, in a bipartisan fashion.

And I think, keep an eye on that word "infrastructure," because what you heard McConnell say, the idea that Republicans are going to fight this every step of the way, I think you're going to see both parties start to avoid the word "infrastructure." Republicans will be talking about tax increases. That's much less popular than infrastructure.

Democrats are going to be talking about the individual components of this plan, which are much more popular than the word "infrastructure."

And you saw Anita Dunn, the senior White House adviser, refer to some of that in a memo to Democrats that we reported on a couple of days ago, putting out polling about how popular it is to retrain coal miners or to -- to build a particular road or bridge.

And so this is where the debate is going to fall, but the Republican position makes it pretty clear that Democrats are going to have to try to (AUDIO GAP -- budget reconciliation. They're not going to get those 60 votes. And so they'll need to do a maneuver to get 51 votes.

That's what Democrats are increasingly going to be focused on right now, is holding together that coalition of moderate Democrats who are resistant to a lot of spending; progressive Democrats who say this is a drop in the bucket, we need five times this much spending. So that's -- that's where Joe Biden is at right now.

CAMEROTA: OK. Thank you very much for laying all of that out for us, Elie, Margaret. We appreciate it.

OK. Now to a coronavirus update. More and more states are reporting cases of the highly-contagious variants. So we have the latest for you on what the map looks like of this pandemic.

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