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Trial of Derek Chauvin for Death of George Floyd Continues; New Evidence Indicates Derek Chauvin Did Not Mention Kneeling on George Floyd's Neck When Speaking to Supervisor Immediately after George Floyd's Death; Sources: Justice Department Pursuing Allegations Gaetz May Have Used Cash and Drugs in Dealings With Young Women. Aired 8- 8:30a ET

Aired April 02, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: An emotional week of testimony in the Derek Chauvin murder trial. In court Thursday, jurors got to hear Chauvin himself explain his version of what happened during the deadly encounter with George Floyd. In a phone call to his then-supervisor, Chauvin made no mention of pinning George Floyd's neck under his knee for nearly 10 minutes. That supervisor was on the stand yesterday, saying the police officers should have stopped restraining Floyd when he stopped resisting.

And there was tearful testimony from George Floyd's girlfriend about their relationship and how they both struggled with opioid addiction.

JOHN AVLON, CNN ANCHOR: Also this morning, cash, drugs, and campaign dollars all part of the growing scandal surrounding Florida Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz. Federal investigators are said to be looking at whether he used campaign funds to pay for travel and expenses of women he was allegedly involved with. And separately, sources tell CNN that Gaetz was bragging about his sexual exploits with fellow lawmakers, showing them nude pictures even on the floor of the House of Representatives.

But we begin with CNN's Josh Campbell live in Minneapolis for the Chauvin murder trial. Josh?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, John. The defense here was dealt a serious blow yesterday. That following testimony from a senior officer who said that the use of force against George Floyd should have stopped the moment he became under control. It was testimony from that senior officer and two paramedics that provided important new insight into the death of George Floyd.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

CAMPBELL: The critical moments after George Floyd was taken away in an ambulance are coming into focus as prosecutors share the audio of a call just after then-Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin removed his knee from Floyd's neck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just had to hold the guy down. He was going crazy, wouldn't go in the back of the squad.

CAMPBELL: Chauvin spoke to Supervising Sergeant David Ploeger, who took the stand on Thursday.

STEVE SCHLEICHER, PROSECUTOR: Did he mention anything about putting his knee on Mr. Floyd's neck or back?

SGT. DAVID PLOEGER, (RET) MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT: No.

SCHLEICHER: Did you get any sense from the defendant how long this restraint lasted?

PLOEGER: No, I didn't have any idea.

CAMPBELL: Ploeger, who has since retired, recalled driving to the scene after speaking with Chauvin. He asked officers to get information from witnesses. Chauvin's response?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can try. They're pretty -- they're all pretty hostile.

CAMPBELL: Ploeger testified it wasn't until after they arrived at the hospital that he learned Chauvin had placed his knee on George Floyd's neck.

SCHLEICHER: Do you have an opinion as to when the restraint of Mr. Floyd should have ended in this encounter?

PLOEGER: Yes.

SCHLEICHER: What is it?

PLOEGER: When Mr. Floyd was no longer offering up any resistance to the officers, they could have ended their restraint.

CAMPBELL: The two medics who responded to the scene described in detail the lifesaving measures they tried on Floyd. Paramedic Derek Smith checked Floyd's pulse and pupils while Chauvin still had his knee on Floyd. He testified Floyd did not appear to be breathing or moving.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did not detect a pulse. In lay terms, I thought he was dead.

CAMPBELL: Even then, the paramedics had to ask Chauvin to remove his knee.

Seth Bravinder testified that when his team stopped the ambulance a few blocks away to try to revive Floyd, Floyd's heart was still stopped. They never regained a pulse.

The court also heard emotional testimony from Courteney Ross, Floyd's girlfriend of nearly three years. She told the story of how they met in August, 2017, at the Salvation Army shelter where Floyd worked.

COURTENEY ROSS, GEORGE FLOYD'S GIRLFRIEND: He said, can I pray with you? This kind person just to come up to me and say, can I pray with you when I felt alone in this lobby, it was so sweet.

CAMPBELL: Chauvin's defense focusing on Floyd's alleged past drug use, Arguing that it was drugs in Floyd's system that killed him and not Chauvin's actions. Chauvin's attorney questioned Ross about an overdose that sent Floyd to the hospital just two months before his death.

ERIC NELSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You had not known he had taken heroin at that time?

ROSS: No.

NELSON: It was your belief that Mr. Floyd started using again about two weeks prior to his death, correct?

ROSS: I noticed a change in his behavior, yes.

CAMPBELL: Ross shared the couple's struggle with opioids.

ROSS: We got addicted, and tried really hard to break that addiction many times.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

CAMPBELL (on camera): Now, it's worth pointing out that an autopsy report indicated that drug use was a serious condition, but it was heart failure that resulted in the death of George Floyd after that restraint.

Now, folks have been asking, what is it like inside the courtroom?

[08:05:00]

I can tell you, I was there yesterday. Seated directly behind Chauvin, between him and a member of the Floyd family. Chauvin sat mostly still throughout, sometimes taking notes. But it was when audio and video of him on police body camera that was played before the courtroom that he started to fidget. His feet started to shake rapidly.

Now for their part, the jury has been focused on this case with rapt attention. They've been taking notes. They've been paying attention to exhibits and the witnesses, no doubt aware of the gravity of this case and the decision that will ultimately await them as they prepare to render a verdict in this case that's being watched around the world. Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Josh, great to have you in the courtroom for us to explain really what's going on inside there. Thank you very much for the reporting.

Joining us to discuss this powerful week of testimony in the Chauvin trial is CNN TONIGHT anchor Don Lemon. He is the author of "The New York Times" bestseller "This is the Fire, What I Say to My Friends about Racism." It's number one, Don. I think people like it. I think the verdict is in.

(LAUGHTER)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: I hope so. I hope so. I think it's very relevant to what's going on right now.

AVLON: No question about it.

LEMON: There are tools in there that we can all use to help get us through the moment that we're living in now.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about this moment, because it's been an intense, emotional week, obviously, of testimony. And in other cases, court cases that have gripped the nation, this one is different. This one is completely different. In other cases that we all tuned in for, we would hear the word "salacious" or "scandalous." This one, I just keep using the word and I keep hearing "traumatic." It's traumatic for everyone to relive those nine minutes and 29 seconds again.

LEMON: Because it's so powerful, and it's there. There's no denying what happened. And initially, I thought that the no denying it was that we were all sitting at home in quarantine and watching this happen in front of our very eyes. But it's, even without that, the video is so powerful.

And I think what people are realizing in the moment is that no one is seeing, or very few people are seeing the humanity who are people in that situation of George Floyd. He's flawed like all of us. He has foibles like we all do, right? He has issues like everybody does. No one is perfect.

But the people who were on the scene saw his humanity. And when I said very few, I meant the police officers. But then the only people who didn't were the police officers. Why is that? Why is it in America that everybody who can walk by and see a man lying on the ground, regardless of what happened in the moment, saying, OK, enough. You've subdued him. He's handcuffed. We would presumes to be bodily functions he's lost on the ground. You see that. He's begging for his life. He's begging for his mother. And still you cannot see this person as a human being and get off of his neck?

It is indicative of what especially black men in this country feel and have felt for centuries, that someone is on their neck all the time, living in a paranoia about racism. Who is going to -- if someone, especially if they get into an encounter with police officers, will that police officer see my humanity? That's what everybody is feeling. And that's why it's so traumatic, as you say.

AVLON: And I think that's one of the reason yes this is resonating so widely, that attempt to other George Floyd is coming up against the face of a real reckoning of our country, that the nine minutes and 29 seconds is forcing us to confront not just systemic police violence and systemic racism, but that at the end of the day, the barriers connecting with our common humanity, and George Floyd is not other. He's not them. He's us. And that's the heart of what I think you've been telling folks at night, and the heart of what a lot is in your book. LEMON: It's all of us. I've said America is on trial. And I say, yes,

George Floyd is us. And I get so much pushback from people saying, it's not us because he had this in his past and he had this -- what does that have to do with his encounter with a police officer? What does that have to do with something that you did years ago? What does that have to do with anything? Why are you making that excuse? Why are you trying to justify in your mind the inhumane treatment of a person by bringing up everything that has happened in their lives. You bring up all the negatives. What about the positives?

ARROYO: Right.

LEMON: That the people on the stand --

CAMEROTA: His girlfriend did a great job of that.

LEMON: His girlfriend. We're so happy when we can find love. You never know where you're going to find love. And here it is, he was a security guard. He meets her. They find love. They have their very first kiss. No one is talking about that in the courtroom. No one is saying, this is -- he has a mother and a father. He has a family who is mourning. Why are you bringing up all the negative things about him? I understand it's a trial.

CAMEROTA: Yes. That's what the defense would do.

LEMON: That's the defense. But America. Americans are doing that. His fellow countrymen are doing that. And it is gross and disgusting. It really is unfathomable.

You think about him being demonized for having addiction issues when what we preach here and what America has been preaching is, don't stigmatize people who have addictions, especially around opioids considering around the heroin abuse and addiction in this country, that we should have empathy for people and try to get them help.

[08:10:20]

But yet the defense is demonizing him for issues that they are saying everyone else should have some sort of empathy or even pity for, some sort of understanding. But no understanding when it comes to George Floyd.

CAMEROTA: Look, I get it. But that's the defense's job. They're trying to save Derek Chauvin's life right now. That's their job. And so all of this comes out in the wash. But I am just struck by how far we've evolved in terms of everything that you're talking about, that families do have opioid addiction in their own life experience. And so I just hear -- I hear a slightly different conversation. But really quickly, I want you to touch on that, but I also want to talk about what happened last night on your show.

LEMON: Let me just do this because when you said they're trying to save -- Derek Chauvin's life is not at issue or at risk here.

CAMEROTA: Life in prison. LEMON: I understand what you're saying, but no one is choking the

life out of him on that stand.

CAMEROTA: For sure. It is different.

LEMON: In that courtroom. What he is -- he is given a leeway that I don't think that George Floyd has been given by the broad public, and that is innocent until proven guilty. So he is innocent on that stand. That's what the whole trial is about, and that's why the defense is doing what they're doing, innocent until proven guilty. No one is trying to snuff the life out of him. They're just trying to get to the bottom of what happened and whether he's guilty or innocent of that. So, yes, I understand what you're saying, but Derek Chauvin is alive and well in Minneapolis.

CAMEROTA: Fair enough. Last night you had Harvard Professor Cornel West on, and he was -- well, it got to you. He said something that really, really got to you. So we just want to play that moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CORNEL WEST, PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC PHILOSOPHY, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: I'm not going to stand there for no nine minutes and 29 seconds and watch somebody murder my father. No, no. Uh-uh. No, no, no. Martin Luther King Jr. talked about passivism, and I believe in non-violence, but I'm not going to watch that kind of murder.

I love my brother Charles McMillian. That's why he was crying. That's what his tears were about. He felt helpless. We're not going to do that. Some of us black folk, some of us black men, we're not going to stand there. We're going to have to intervene in some way. They ain't going to kill us like that and we remain spectators.

Somewhere I read, silence is not an option. I don't stand with the silence. That's the last two sentences of your letter to Drew (ph), your letter to your nephew. But American needs to understand that, too. We've got to self-respect. We've got to self-defense, and we intervene when you start killing us like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I'm sorry.

CAMEROTA: Why did that one get you, Don?

LEMON: Because it's true.

CAMEROTA: What part?

LEMON: All of it is true. You think about the history and the relationship my people have to this country. We revere the people who came over on the Mayflower, but we demonize the people who came over in slave ships who built this country. That we -- for free. That we have less humanity and fewer options because people are always judging us. And there are different standards for people who look like me. Instead of seeing someone's humanity, you see the -- you see -- you find ways to degrade them and make excuses for your racism.

That's what they're doing, making excuses for their racism. They want to see George Floyd as other. They want to somehow feel or make it seem that Derek Chauvin did everything right. They bring up everything that George Floyd did wrong in his past. But we don't hear about the things that Derek Chauvin did wrong as a police officer. Much of that is not allowed in court. How many complaints he's had against him. How he -- if you look at the video of him, the coldness that he has for his actions. He's just taken someone's life, and he is saying, well, he's a big guy. Basically, saying he's a big black guy, and he says he needed to be controlled is what he's saying. Not that, oh, my gosh, what did I do? I had nine minutes and 29 seconds to think about my actions, to take my knee off of a man's neck and allow him the God- given right to just breathe.

So, yes, what he's saying is right.

[08:15:01]

Who wouldn't be angry? The defense is saying, well, weren't you angry? You were angry at the police officer. He shouldn't have done what he was doing because the crowd was angry.

Who wouldn't be angry if you see someone killing someone on the street with total impunity and sitting there just like nothing is happening. I would be angry.

And what the professor is saying, someone should have stepped in. I would want to step in. Anybody would want to step in, but guess what? We don't have the power and control to do it because the police officer has the power and control and they've been doing it for decades with impunity and getting away with it and lying about it.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: I think that's really come out in the trial. All the people, all the witnesses, how this has forever marked their life and how they feel guilty and they feel devastated and they felt helpless, from the store clerk to the firefighter.

LEMON: PTSD.

CAMEROTA: The teenager with the cell phone, all of them.

LEMON: Guilt. We see -- because I see my nephew in George Floyd. I see my uncle, I see my father, I see the man down the street.

But the thing is, one thing I want to -- I remember back in 2016 when the man in Baton Rouge, Alton Sterling, what happened to Alton Sterling, and they were demonizing him. He's this, he had a gun and all these things and he died because he was selling CDs at a convenience store.

My nieces grew up in the neighborhood where he was and said, that's Mr. Alton. He sells the CDs. We've seen him all the time and we kind of laugh because nobody buys CDs anymore, Uncle Don, so we'll give him money and say, we don't want the CDs, but thank you. They saw him as a human being. He was not threatening. But to those

officers who came up on the scene were threatening to him because they didn't know his story, because they don't see him as a person. They see him as somehow someone who is threatening to them because they don't know him. We don't know our neighbors.

And that's what we need to get to know our neighbors and treat them as human beings, each other as human beings.

JOHN AVLON, CNN ANCHOR: And that is the reckoning. That is the wisdom that we need. That is -- this is the fire.

And that is a lot of what your book communicates. It's beautifully written. It's personal. It addresses all these contemporary issues but also history.

Don Lemon, thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: Thanks, Don. Great to see you.

LEMON: Thank you very much. It's good to see you. It's early. I can't believe I'm up this early.

Thank you, guys, for having me. Appreciate it.

CAMEROTA: Great to have you.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:20:59]

AVLON: Developing this morning -- federal investigators are looking into whether Congressman Matt Gaetz used campaign money to pay for travel and expenses for young women. Sources also telling CNN, Gaetz showed nude photos of women he said he was with to lawmakers on the floor of the House of Representatives.

Joining us is Dave Aronberg, state attorney for Florida's Palm Beach County. He knows Matt Gaetz and his father from his years of services in the Florida Senate.

Good to see you, Dave.

re you surprised by what is coming out about Matt Gaetz given your knowledge of his father and his family over all these years?

DAVE ARONBERG, STATE ATTORNEY, PALM BEACH COUNTY, FLORIDA: I am surprised when anyone I know is being accused of child sex trafficking. That's about as serious of a crime as can be alleged. It's punishable by up to life in prison.

His father is a very respected guy in Tallahassee. He was the Senate president. He's an old-school politician, buttoned down, refers to people very formally and gives respect to people on both sides. Matt was very different. He was very brash and bombastic. Loves to

troll people, which is why he's made so many enemies. He's got a list of enemies a mile long.

Ask Liz Cheney, his own Republican leader who he then went to Wyoming to troll in person, in her own district, because she voted yes on impeachment, which makes me wonder what she is thinking right now. I bet if he returned to Wyoming, she'd probably serve him a hot plate of karma with a shot of schadenfreude for herself.

AVLON: Hmm, delicious karma.

CAMEROTA: Dave, as the state attorney, I mean, how legitimate do you think these allegations are. They are of cash being paid to women, one of them reportedly 17 years old, drugs being used, cross-state travel. What do you think of these allegations?

ARONBERG: These are raw elements of sex trafficking even though you don't need across state travel. That's a misnomer. The statute is so broad. You just need an enticement, recruitment, maintaining a girl for sex in exchange for something of value. And if you've got the cash receipts, that's pretty damning.

I think there are two defenses matt will used based on what I'm seeing. Number one, you saw his statement that he released. He said he's never paid anyone for sex.

Well, Joel Greenberg apparently, his buddy, the former tax collector in Seminole County who is in jail awaiting his own sex trafficking trial allegedly involving the same girl at issue here, he is the one who supposedly paid the girls for sex. If Matt Gaetz knew that was happening, then he is just as guilty of sex trafficking as Joel Greenberg.

And his other defense will be that he never had sex with the girl in question. Now that could be proven in a few ways. First, you call the girl as a witness. It looks like she's cooperating because they're charging Joel Greenberg for that.

Also you could just look at documents. Maybe he's bragging in text messages, emails. And if he is, I bet the FBI has those already.

And then, finally, you could try to flip Joel Greenberg to be the key witness against Matt Gaetz. Greenberg is awaiting trial in jail right now. He was sent back to jail after he violated his pretrial release. So, he has every incentive now to play let's make a deal with federal prosecutors.

CAMEROTA: Oh, boy. It just gets more and more tawdry.

Dave Aronberg, thank you very much for the legal analysis of this. Obviously, we'll call upon you again.

ARONBERG: Thanks for having me.

CAMEROTA: Now to the political implications. We're joined by CNN political commentator and former Republican Congressman Charlie Dent.

So, Charlie, here we are. What do you think of all these Matt Gaetz allegations?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Wow. He's going to come under tremendous pressure to resign. And I served as chair of the House Ethics Committee and I can tell you, when these kind of scandals erupt, they just snowball. And he is going to face an avalanche of pressure.

This is a guy who called on Liz Cheney to be removed from her leadership position for voting for impeachment who has, you know, very few friends in the House.

[08:25:05]

And those are just Republicans. I mean, this guy has problems all over the place.

His bigger problem, frankly, is with the DOJ and the sex trafficking, you know, fake IDs, cash payments, dealing about drugs. I mean, there's a -- there's a whole host of things here.

You know, he's lucky John Boehner right now isn't speaker or leader because I guarantee, he would have been summoned to the office and said are these allegations true? If so, sign the letter on the desk. That's your resignation, time to leave. I was around for a lot of these situations, believe me. That's where this is heading.

AVLON: Speaking of John Boehner, this morning, an excerpt from his upcoming book was published in politico where he dealt with the rise of these folks like Matt Gaetz. These folks are performative rather than trying to get something done.

Here's what he wrote: These guys wanted 100 percent every time. In fact, I don't think even that would satisfy them because they didn't really want legislative victories.

They wanted wedge issues and conspiracies and crusades. A lot of them wanted to blow up Washington. That's why they thought they were elected.

I know this resonates with you. This is part of the fights that you have been having with your party. But Matt Gaetz is sort of exhibit A, someone who thought being a member of Congress was about trolling, not actually solving problems for the people.

DENT: Well, you know what, John? You know, Matt Gaetz is the latest in a very long list, a long merry band of destroyers, you know, who have come to Washington to blow things up, just as Boehner said. They saw any type of compromise, any type of accommodation as surrender, as capitulation, as a betrayal.

I mean, this is -- and when Boehner talks about this, he knows. He was -- he was the speaker. He's a Republican majority in the House, Democratic Senate and Democratic president. We had to make agreements. And these people turned on him and people like me and threw us under the bus at every opportunity to advance themselves. And one of the reasons I became outspoken as a member, I was one of those guys who had my head down for most of my time just trying to do my job. When I saw some of these more exotic members that I would often refer to as the whack-a-doodles going out on television, defining all of us, I felt it was important for folks like me to stand up and say something.

In fact, the leaders, Boehner and others encouraged me to get up and speak, not just in the Republican Conference but publicly because they needed support because these other guys are going on another network and making a lot of noise and like hell for everybody.

CAMEROTA: Well, that other network has aided and abetted the whack-a- doodle contingent as you say, and John Boehner writes about that in his book. He says, besides the home-grown talent at Fox with their choice of guests, they were making people who used to be fringe characters into powerful media stars. One of the first prototypes of their laboratory was a woman named Michele Bachmann. There's a direct line from Michele Bachmann through Donald Trump to Matt Gaetz.

DENT: Exactly. And, of course, you know, that was one of the reasons I became outspoken. I was so tired of being defined by that. People were trying to suggest that I was somehow in agreement with her statements that were very conspiratorial and wacky.

And I was in those meetings, too. She wanted a seat on the ways and means committee and all the rest of us saying, are you serious? That's for people who actually are serious about their jobs and working. And, you know, so there were a lot of us who pushed back.

And we would have situations, I would sit in meetings with John Boehner and we talked about, he didn't want to put some Freedom Caucus in subcommittee chairs. One of the committee chairs said, well, I have too many on my committee. He was the land of misfit toys. He had to appoint some of them to subcommittees because we were trying to find ways not to elevate those types of people who really had no interest in governing but just were trying to blow things up every day.

CAMEROTA: Well, at least Marjorie Taylor Greene is in Matt Gaetz's corner.

AVLON: Don't forget Jim Jordan.

CAMEROTA: Yeah.

Charlie, thank you. Great to talk to you. Thanks for reminding us of how we got here.

DENT: Yeah.

AVLON: All right. Coronavirus cases in the United States are going up as parts of Europe head into an Easter weekend lockdown. The latest on the pandemic, next.

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