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World War II Navy Ship Found; MLB Pulls All-Start Game from Georgia; Book on how '70 Shaped America. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired April 05, 2021 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Shipwreck dive. We're talking more than 21,000 feet under the Pacific.

CNN's Ivan Watson with the incredible images.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This is the world's deepest-known shipwreck, located more than four miles or some 6,500 meters below the surface of the Pacific. The numbers 557 identify it as the USS Johnston, filmed for the first time under water by remote controlled submersible. This destroyer was one of several U.S. Navy ships sunk battling a vastly superior Japanese fleet during a furious battle off the coast of the Philippines during World War II.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These little ships fighting a desperate battle at the time, used everything in the book to stay afloat.

WATSON (on camera): How did you feel seeing the ID numbers of the USS Johnston?

CAPT. CARL SCHUSTER, U.S. NAVY (RET.): In a way it's painful, but in another way it's inspirational.

WATSON (voice over): Former U.S. Navy Captain Carl Schuster says he and his fellow officers studied the story of the Johnston and its commander, Earnest Evans (ph), the first Native American Naval officer to be posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor.

SCHUSTER: He moved without orders. He saw an imminent danger to the fleet and he moved on it on his own authority.

WATSON: Evans bought time by venerable American transport ships by attack a fleet of 23 Japanese warships.

SCHUSTER: His actions started and charge, if you will, that ultimately saved several thousand. American lives, at the cost of his own and much of his crew.

WATSON: One hundred and eighty-six crew member, including Commander Evans, died aboard the Johnston. The Johnston was mapped by Caladan Oceanic. Over the past decade, several other World War II wrecks have been discovered in the Pacific by expeditions led by the late Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen.

Navies around the world treat these sites as sacred war graves.

SCHUSTER: I see them as the tombs our cemeteries of brave men who died fighting for their country, whether they're German, Japanese or American.

WATSON: The mapping of the USS Johnston brings some closure for surviving relatives of the ship's crew.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A grateful people will remember their names, Baganbua Bay (ph), the USS Cole (ph), the Johnston, the Samuel B. Roberts (ph).

WATSON: But the final resting places of the three other ships sunk during the same deadly battle have yet to be found.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATSON: Now, John, Caladan Oceanic, the private company that brought us those amazing images, is not sharing the exact location of the USS Johnston with any organization besides the U.S. Navy. And that fits a pattern of other expeditions that have found these sunken warships from World War II. And the reason is they're worried about looters and people trying to dig into the wrecks to take away souvenirs or even to take valuable metal and sell it later for scrap metal. That has happened to other World War II shipwrecks. They want to preserve the memory of this wreck and war grave.

John.

BERMAN: Even at 21,000 feet? They're -- people can go and just steal -- steal the supplies?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: That would be a committed looter.

WATSON: OK, that one's going to be a little difficult. But, clearly, it has happened in the -- in the Java Sea, there are a number of wrecks there, American as well, and there have been signs of entire ships disappearing and probably sold for scrap metal, which is tragic.

BERMAN: It is an amazing story. Ivan, thank you so much for bringing us those pictures. Just stunning to see and such history there.

CAMEROTA: Sixty-two percent deeper than where the Titanic was found.

BERMAN: You just did the math off the top of your head?

CAMEROTA: Yes, I did. I was just -- I was just writing here on the back of the envelope.

BERMAN: Very impressive.

CAMEROTA: OK, Major League Baseball moving quickly in response to Georgia's new election law. What's next for the league and the players as they search for a new home for the all-star game? Former all-star Curtis Granderson joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:38:01]

BERMAN: This morning, Major League Baseball looking for a new home for the all-star game. The Atlanta Braves played yesterday with the all- star patch on their right sleeve covered up after the league announced it was pulling the game from the city over Georgia's new voting law.

Joining me now, former all-star outfielder Curtis Granderson. He is now the president of The Players Alliance and has been involved in discussions about relocating the game.

And, full disclosure, I almost never like any players who didn't play for the Red Sox and I've always liked you. So thank you so much for being with us. It's a pleasure to speak with you. I like even more how you've used your voice since retiring. So thanks for being here.

Look, what's your view on the decision by baseball to remove the all- star game from Georgia?

CURTIS GRANDERSON, PRESIDENT, THE PLAYERS ALLIANCE: Well, I commend Commissioner Rob Manfred. He's got the head of the job of Major League Baseball to make these tough decisions. And sometimes you're not always going to make everybody happy, whether the game stayed in Atlanta or it was going to potentially be moved out of Atlanta. There were going to be a lot of people that were going to be disappointed at the decision. And I commend again Rob Manfred for reaching out to different individuals, different entities, different groups, including The Players Alliance, to just gage and get a pulse of where everybody was at. And I think all that went into him making that decision, which he ultimately did.

BERMAN: Well, he got your pulse. You spoke to him before the decision was made.

GRANDERSON: Yes.

BERMAN: What did you say to him?

GRANDERSON: So I told him that we had had a chance to talk to some of our members of The Players Alliance. And just for everyone out there, we comprise of about 150 current and former black ball players, plus we have a lot of allies, our non-black brothers that have played alongside us, both on the field, off the field and everywhere in between. So we got a chance to communicate with them. And it was, as you can imagine, guys on both sides of this different thing, voicing their opinions, and we were able to provide that insight to Rob.

So, again, I appreciate him reaching out to us because as he's trying to understand what's going on, you definitely can't forget the players that are going to ultimately be playing in this game because all eyes are going to be on them, whether they decide to take the field or if they're disappointed at the decision decide to remove themselves from this game and how that's going to ultimately affect them. [08:40:05]

So letting him know that, letting him understand that. He was also listening. He was receptive to it, which again we appreciate.

BERMAN: To that point, do you think players would have boycotted the all-star game? Do you think players would have refused to play had it been in Georgia?

GRANDERSON: I think people have to realize and remember that players are more than just players. Although there's a lot of young players right now, some in their 20s, their parents, their grandparents, especially from the state of Georgia, were there during the civil rights movement, were fighting for the right to be able to vote, to be very similar to other citizens. So if you really take a pulse and look at that side of things and go, OK, I'm a young ball player getting a chance to ultimately play in my first all-star game in the great city of Atlanta, in the great state of Georgia, and my parents and my grandparents were going through these different things and these battles to give me the rights to be here, to be on this stage with everybody, a place where Hank Aaron got a chance to play, one of the greats in this game, it makes it very difficult for some of those guys to go ahead and make the decision to say with everything that's happening, I'm going to go ahead and take the legacy from my family and step on the field for this game. So, from that side of it, it was those messages that needed to come across to be understood.

BERMAN: And, look, that would have been a big deal. I mean that's something that had to weigh on Rob Manfred. It's a big deal if five, six, seven, maybe more players don't show up to the all-star game. And baseball's all-star game, this is, you know, this is the all-star game. It's different than other sports there.

What's your specific -- or what are your issues with the Georgia voting law specifically?

GRANDERSON: Well, I think when you look at a couple of the different things in there, I know a lot has been made about the IDs and the food and the water, but particularly with the food and the water, the Miami Marlins, for example, them, as an organization, did that effort during the November election. They went out into the community as a team, as an organization, to provide food and water to those in need. As you can know, being down in Miami, possibly during that time, in that heat, some of our elderly coming from some of these communities of color, being able to make sure they stay hydrated, to make sure there's no issues, especially when you look at the statistics in terms of the wait times typically for people of color. On average, when you're a non, you know, black person, your wait time to get a chance to vote is about five to ten minutes. But when you're looking at a lot of the individuals of color, their wait times can be excessive, over an hour. And if you've been to Florida, you've seen the humidity, you've felt it, you've been out there, and to be able to wait in line some of those times can be challenging. It also can be a hindrance for you to get an opportunity to vote.

Now we also add in a bunch of the other different things, the elimination of the mobilization to be able to bring voting opportunities to those that make it very challenging to be able to go ahead and vote, to be able to step in and ultimately change who ultimately counting the votes in these certain situations. So it's certain things like that, that I think a lot of people are overlooking in these situations. And when you see it historically, it's always disproportionately with people of color.

BERMAN: What are your plans with some of the other states that are now considering perhaps even more restrictive measures? Texas now discussing doing away with ballot drop boxes, limiting voting hours and other measures. Do you think players should consider not playing or taking action in Texas?

GRANDERSON: Well, our plan is starting actually in the state of Georgia. Even though the game is not going to be there, The Players Alliance is planning and had planned to go out there and be involved in the community, helping the young black kids get opportunities and get access to this great game of baseball, helping out the small businesses in there. We're still planning to do that and we're going to do that because we have a lot of players in the state of Georgia.

We also are going to look to go to the new all-stars city, wherever Major League Baseball selects and decides to go and continue our efforts there. For those of you out there that don't know, we did a 33-city cross country tour over the months of December and November, including the state of Texas. Went to Houston. We went to Dallas. We were providing COVID products. We were providing baseball equipment and we were also providing food to those in need during the middle of this pandemic.

And in states like Texas, California, Arizona, Georgia, even if they do end up being in very similar situations, we still have it as part of our mission as The Players Alliance to still get out there, to still make sure the voices are heard, to still help those communities of color and to be on the ground with those that have a better understanding of what's going on to ultimately help try to restrict some of these situations that might come up.

BERMAN: I've got to let you go. I've got about 30 second left. But what do you say to those who complain, oh, this is just cancel culture? You know, everybody's boycotting everything right now.

GRANDERSON: I think a lot of it is getting a lot of attention. And, obviously, again, some people are going to be very disappointed. But when you really take a stab at it, and really take a look at it, if you don't stand up for this situation, there's going to be continued domino effects of more and more things that ultimately come about from this situation. So this is about everybody, not just the people of color, even though The Players Alliance was founded and created by players, again, our allies are our non-black baseball players and the communities that we go out there to help and serve.

BERMAN: Curtis Granderson, thank you so much for being with us this morning and I forgive you for ever playing with the Yankees.

[08:45:00] GRANDERSON: Well, I always enjoyed coming to Boston. So, thank you very much.

BERMAN: You hit the crap out of the ball there every time you went to Boston.

Thank you.

GRANDERSON: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right, we have a special treat for you this morning. We're going to take you back to Los Angeles, in the era of rock n roll and so much more. See how the '70s pop culture relates to today's political scene.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, ACTRESS, "ALL IN THE FAMILY": Did you know that 65 percent of the people murdered in the last ten years were killed by handguns.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE, ACTOR, "ALL IN THE FAMILY": Would it make you feel any better, little girl, if they was pushed out of windows?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, that's convoluted logic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And that's the kind of straight thinking I'm trying to pout across here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So that, of course, "All In the Family."

Did you know that Saturday nights in 1974 on CBS, that show, "Mary Tyler Moore," "MASH," "Newhart" and "Carol Burnett," they all aired on Saturday nights in 1974.

CAMEROTA: I remember.

BERMAN: I never knew that. It was astounding.

CAMEROTA: Unlike you, I know.

[08:50:01]

BERMAN: That's just one of the astounding things I learned in the new book "Rock Me On the Water." It tells the story of Los Angeles in 1974, a monumental moment in time for that city, but also, in many ways, a cultural apex for the entire country.

Joining us now is the author of that book, CNN's senior political analyst Ron Brownstein.

And, Ron, Alisyn can vouch for me because when I read this a few weeks ago, I was coming in every day telling her something new. I simply couldn't put it down.

CAMEROTA: He hasn't stopped talking about it, Ron.

BERMAN: No, no, really, I love it. And I love the whole concept of it, which is, you go month by month in 1974, in Los Angeles, to make what point?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, look, first of all, thank you, I'm so glad you enjoyed the book. And it's really written both for people who would remember this and those, John, like you, how are -- don't have enough gray hairs to fully -- fully remember what was happening in 1974.

What happened in Los Angeles in the early 1970s, which really reached its peak in 1974, was at one level just an incredible confluence of talent. I mean people talk about the literary world and Paris in the '20s, or the modern art world in New York in the early '50s.

The early 1970s in L.A. brought together incredible talent in music, Joni Mitchell, Linda Ronstadt, Jackson Browne, The Eagles, television, Norman Lear and Carroll O'Connor, James L. Brooks and Mary Tyler Moore, Larry Gelbart and Alan Alda, and movies, Jack Nicholson, Warren Beatty, Jane Fonda, the great directors born in the 20s and 30s like Arthur Penn and Robert Altman and Bob Rafelson, and the first movies by the, you know, the baby boom directors, Stephen Spielberg, Scorsese, and Lucas.

So, on one level, it's just this incredible explosion of pop cultural mastery. But at a deep level, and what really threw me to this story, this is the moment when the '60s critique of American life were cemented into pop culture never to be dislodged. And, in that way, it was an absolute hinge in our social and cultural and even political history, as well as, you know, a moment of just iconic popular culture from Chinatown to "All In the Family."

CAMEROTA: I mean, and this is not just a big nostalgia trip, though I have nothing against those. I enjoy those. It's also, you talk about how that year, 1974, is very relevant right now in terms of all of the sort of cultural sands shifting.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And so let me just read a portion for everybody of the book. You say, just like the '60s generation, the millennial's and their younger siblings have changed the culture more quickly than they have changed politics. But one clear lesson from American history is that while the voices resistant to change may win delaying battles and politics, they cannot indefinitely hold back the future.

So explain that parallel between what was happening then and today.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes. Well, look, what was happening in the early 1970s was that all of these industries, music, movies, television, were transforming in response to the growing power, buying power of the baby boom. They were changing culture before they change politics. And, in fact, the great irony of the era, Alisyn, is that all of these

ideas took root, really triumphed in popular culture precisely as Richard Nixon was winning two national elections in '68 and '72 by mobilizing the voters most uneasy about the way society was changing after the 1960s.

And I believe that's exactly what's happening now. You have the millennial's and generation z combined in 2024 will be the largest generation in the electorate there. They are a larger share of the society now than the baby boom ever was. And you can see the way they are changing popular culture with a kind of radically broader definition of inclusion, not only tolerance, but celebration of difference, even as Trump is showing the power of mobilizing the political coalition in opposition to those changes. It doesn't mean that the left is always going to win elections. But I do think the popular culture that rivets these younger generations, just like the baby boom, is a better guide to how we will be living in ten years than the election returns from 2020 in 2016.

BERMAN: So I even read through the acknowledgements because I had the sense in reading the book, Ron, that you got to hang with some pretty sick people in writing this.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

BERMAN: So just lay it out for there.

BROWNSTEIN: Jackson Browne was singing acapella is my living room. So that was a highlight.

CAMEROTA: Wow.

BERMAN: What else? Who else? Lay it out there.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes. Yes, look, I -- one of the things that really makes this story so, I think, engaging, is it's so many of the figures from this period, the late '60s, the early '70s in L.A. spoke with me at great length about what they achieved and, you know, how things changed. Warren Beatty, Angelica Huston, Jane Fonda, Graham Nash, Jackson Browne, Linda Ronstadtt, Erving Azoff and Lou Adler, legendary producers Norman Lear, James L. Brooks.

And, John, what was really exciting to me was that they were aware that they were part of something special. I mean in all of these industries, particularly in movies and television, you know, the story is very similar, movies and television, very deliberately, even defiantly ignored what was happening around them during the 1960s. I mean we got "The Sound of Music" and "Mary Poppins" on the movie side.

[08:55:00]

We had "Beverly Hillbillies" and "Petticoat Junction," we didn't get any closer to Vietnam then "McHale's Navy" and Gomer Pyle.

But, really, all of them, from the late '60s and the early '70s really culminating in 1974 felt the need to connect with the society around them in a new way. As that was what -- that was what they felt they had to do to hold this massive, younger audience that was emerging. And, as a result, all of a sudden, you know, instead of "Beverley Hillbilly" you had "All In the Family." Instead of "Petticoat Junction," you had "Mary Tyler Moore." And suddenly you had "The Godfather" and "Godfather II" and "Chinatown," "Five Easy Pieces," "Carnal Knowledge," "The Conversation," this incredible burst of socially-aware filmmaking that really was the moment, when ideas like suspicion of authority and business in government, changing relations between men and women, greater personal freedom, greater inclusion and kind of acceptance of difference. All of these ideas entered the pop culture. They're so much a part of our mental architecture now, we can't imagine there was a time before them. But there was a time before them and this is the moment that changed.

BERMAN: Well, look, you know, the world through the eyes of Warren Beatty. Not a bad place to be looking at things, Ron Brownstein.

BROWNSTEIN: Literally from the Penthouse.

BERMAN: So congratulations to you. The book is "Rock Me on the Water." It is wonderful and it is available now.

CAMEROTA: Ron Brownstein is the grooviest guy in news, OK? Don't let that striped tie fool you.

BERMAN: He was singing acapella in Jackson Browne's living room.

CAMEROTA: It's a tie-dye. Yes.

BROWNSTEIN: That's exactly it.

BERMAN: All right. Our coverage continues right after this.

BROWNSTEIN: Thanks, guys.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:00:00]