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CDC Seek More Information on Vaccine; Unemployment Claims Released; Retail Sales Surge; Evangelicals Refuse Vaccine. Aired 8:30- 9a ET

Aired April 15, 2021 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:32:14]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So a panel of CDC vaccine advisers have put off a decision about whether to restart the Johnson & Johnson coronavirus vaccination, saying they need more information.

Joining us now, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN chief medical correspondent.

Sanjay, I think we were all a little bit surprised that they decided to not even make the decision yesterday. They decided to put it off. Why? And what does it tell you? And what could they learn over the next eight to ten days?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, sometimes a non-decision is a decision in a way, or at least it appears that way.

We are going to hear from them again, but I think it's a little bit unfortunate because, obviously, this is a vaccine that a lot of people are thinking about, wondering what's going to happen with this.

I think there were sort of two things. You know, and we listened to how these advisory committee members, how they were sort of describing this. I think one of the things as -- they're trying to determine, is this more of a needle in a haystack issue, which it very much appear to be, or is this the tip of an iceberg of something larger? I don't think anybody thinks that these are -- everyone thinks these are still very rare occurrence, but just how rare exactly.

And they also, I think, are trying to figure out, what is it that ties these people together? So are new cases going to emerge as health care providers around the country hear about this and say, oh, yes, wait a second, that sounds familiar, was that related to a vaccine, and what ties these people together?

Ultimately, hopefully, they arrive at some decision. Perhaps it's an age-based decision. We're opening up Johnson & Johnson again but not for people under a certain age or with certain comorbidities. We'll see. But I hope they make that decision quickly.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: We have, Sanjay, some viewer questions for you. So let me just -- let me just jump right in.

GUPTA: OK.

HARLOW: This is a viewer question, the graphic is P211. This comes from William Boyle. What are the risks to fully vaccinated people if a large percentage of the population refused to get the vaccine? I understand that not being able to achieve herd immunity is a problem for society at large, but it doesn't seem that it makes things less safe for vaccinated individuals.

That is a great question. Does it?

GUPTA: Right. It is a great question.

And, William, first of all, you should feel very good that you've received the vaccine and people who have received the vaccine, I mean, should feel very good about it. It's a very protective vaccine. I mean, you know, we had clinical trial data and now we're getting real world data and the vaccine is holding up. So it's very good at protecting you from getting sick, from needing hospitalization and from dying.

I think the risk to a population as a whole from not achieving herd immunity are sort of two things. One is that, you know, there will still be people who then get sick and require hospitalization. That, obviously, at times can make hospitals full with COVID patients or take away resources from other patients.

[08:35:04]

I think the larger issue, and we're sort of seeing this play out, is as the virus circulates more and more in an unvaccinated population, it acquires these mutations. Sometimes, often times, the mutations are pretty harmless. But if you get enough of these mutations, that can turn into a variant of concern and may require boosters of the vaccines. You know, even yearly shots perhaps. So it's more a question of inspiring more mutations in an unvaccinated population, which can affect everyone.

BERMAN: You know, this question is not completely unrelated to that. This is from Ellen who writes, how long does the -- or do the vaccines last? I got vaccinated with both doses of the Pfizer in February and plan to travel to Denver in September to see my family. Will I have to get a booster shot?

GUPTA: So, you know, Ellen, I -- the honest answer is, we don't know yet. That is the honest answer. Because sometimes to determine how long something lasts, you have to have the passage of time. So this is a vaccine -- these are vaccines that were authorized at the end of last year. Right now what the studies have shown is that they last at least six months.

I think the reality, if you look at other vaccines, even similar vaccines, they should last a lot longer than that. But I think we can only go by the data that we have. Ultimately, again, you're right, it's related in some part to the

other question. There may be a thing where we do need booster shots because these variants are not as well protected by the existing vaccines. Right now they seem to be. But if it gets to a point where these mutations accumulate and aren't as well protected, we may need booster shots.

So, Ellen, you're right on the cusp there. You're -- it sounds like it's about seven months between your shot and when you want to travel. My guess is you're going to be just fine doing that but we'll have more data as -- over the next couple of months even.

BERMAN: We're learning as we're going here.

GUPTA: Yes.

BERMAN: Sanjay, thanks so much for being with us.

HARLOW: Thank you, Sanjay.

GUPTA: Thank you.

HARLOW: We are just getting a brand-new snapshot of America's jobs crisis. Is it getting better or worse? That's next.

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[08:41:10]

HARLOW: All right, just in to CNN, two brand-new reports that point to pretty positive signs for the U.S. economy.

Let's get straight to our chief business correspondent Christine Romans.

Good news.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Hi. Yes, and I want to start with the jobs picture first because finally we have jobless claims, initial jobless claims, the lowest of the pandemic, just 596,000 first time -- or 576,000 first-time jobless benefits in the most recent week.

And you can see from the chart, Poppy, what that looks like. The trend is now pretty clear that fewer people are being laid off.

Historically, these are still pretty big numbers, but we know that the mass layoffs have slowed and we're starting to see some hiring again.

When you look at those pandemic programs, 131,000 people filed under the pandemic programs, the emergency programs. So, altogether, 707,000.

Look, we've been over a million again and again and again all through this crisis. So that's a good number to see there. Altogether, 16.9 million people receiving some sort of a jobless check. I mean that's an army of people who are getting income replacement from the American government, but you can see that number is also going down.

The other report, retail sales, wow. Vaccinations, reopenings, and, quite frankly, those stimulus checks, retail sales up 9.8 percent in March. Really a remarkable number there. So a big burst there.

We had been expecting -- some economists were telling me, don't be surprised to see a double-digit jump in retail sales because people had money in their pockets from the stimulus checks.

Also, John, you're seeing the reopenings. Good weather. You're starting to see reopening. People are feeling better about vaccination rates. All of this coming together in a positive sign for the American economy.

BERMAN: The economic term is en fuego, right, retail sales? I believe that's what we learned in economics class.

ROMANS: En Fuego. Very well done.

BERMAN: Christine Romans, thank you very much.

Eight years ago today the world watched the deadly bombing at the finish line of the Boston Marathon. Three people were killed. More than 260 injured.

This week's CNN Heroes is one of the survivors. Heather Abbott's life was forever changed by the injuries she suffered, yet she found a way to turn that tragedy into triumph.

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HEATHER ABBOTT, CNN HERO: I heard the first explosion just ahead, in front of me. The next thing I knew, a second explosion occurred just to my right. And that was the last thing I knew before I landed in the restaurant on the ground.

I was in the hospital for several days while doctors were deciding whether or not to amputate.

It was hard to come to terms with the fact that I am an amputee at first. And had my injury not happened in such a public way where there was so much assistance available, I never would have been able to afford multiple prostethes (ph).

So I decide to do what I could to help people get those devices that simply couldn't get them because they were out of reach.

It has been life changing for them and a lot of them remind me of that.

It feels very rewarding to be able to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BERMAN: You know Heather personally.

HARLOW: I know her well. I mean I've covered -- I've covered her since this -- for the last eight years. She's amazing what she's done.

BERMAN: It is a wonderful story. And to see the full story and how she's helping amputees get custom prosthesis, go to cnnheroes.com. And while you're there, nominate someone you think should be a CNN Hero.

Vaccine resistance remains strong among many evangelicals.

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TONY SPELL, PASTOR, LIFE TABERNACLE CHURCH: I would rather die free than I had lived on my knees.

ELLE REEVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: How is it living on your knees to take the vaccine?

SPELL: Because you're bowing against your convictions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: You need to see this stunning report from CNN's Elle Reeve, next.

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[08:49:26]

BERMAN: Evangelicals in the U.S. are among the biggest vaccine skeptics. In one community, that hesitancy is being fueled by a pastor whose message to his congregants is, don't trust the coronavirus vaccine or the government for that matter. The question is, why?

CNN's Ellie Reed went to Louisiana to find out.

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TONY SPELL, PASTOR, LIFE TABERNACLE CHURCH: Being anti-mask and anti- vaccine, this anti-government, then I'm proud to be anti-government.

ELLE REEVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): As more and more Americans are getting vaccinated, resistance remains strong within one group in particular, white evangelicals.

[08:50:01]

SPELL: Hallelujah Jesus.

REEVE: This hesitancy is driven by a distrust in government, misinformation and political identity. This is not a fringe group. A quarter of Americans are evangelical.

SPELL: You do not give me my rights, sir, whether you're a politician, a (INAUDIBLE) or a doctor. I would rather die free than I had live on my knees.

REEVE (on camera): How is it living on your knees to take a vaccine?

SPELL: Because you're bowing against your convictions.

REEVE (voice over): Pentecostal Pastor Tony Spell has made a national name for himself protesting COVID-19 rules in Baton Rouge. He live streamed himself going under house arrest last spring for refusing to close his church during lockdown. While a survey of evangelical leaders finds most would be open to getting the vaccine, Spell is adamantly against it.

REEVE (on camera): If you broke your arm or something, would you go to the doctor?

SPELL: Sure, I'd go to the doctor and get it set and wear a cast.

REEVE: So, like, at some level you trust some doctors.

SPELL: Yes, we do.

REEVE: So can you just explain where the line is?

SPELL: The line is in this vaccine. Number one, the virus has been a scam from the beginning. It's always been politically motivated from mail-in ballots and voter ID. That's what has got a new administration in the White House today.

REEVE (voice over): White evangelical Christians are more likely than other religious groups to believe in certain conspiracy theories, like that Trump won the 2020 election or in QAnon theories. According to a study by the Conservative American Enterprise Institute. But conspiracies about the COVID-19 vaccine can affect everyone else, because public health experts have told us around 70 percent of the population needs to get the vaccine to reach herd immunity. And 28 percent of white evangelical Christians say they definitely won't get it, with another 6 percent saying they'll only get it if forced.

SPELL: And you have a 99.6 survival rate. Why do you want somebody to contaminate your bloodstream with something that may or may not hurt you?

SAMUEL PERRY, SOCIOLOGIST OF RELIGION, UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA: There is a tendency within white Christian nationalism to want to believe these kinds of conspiracies because I think it reinforces this idea of an us versus them. The problem is, the people who are feeding that fear have an incentive to keep stoking that fear because people keep clicking and people keep listening.

REEVE (on camera): Is the appeal of your sermon that the pandemic is scary, the virus is scary, and so you're telling scared people that you don't have to worry about any of that stuff. Like, come to my church and God will make sure you don't get this virus?

SPELL: Yes, I promoted that. REEVE: Why are you giving them false hope?

SPELL: That's not false hope.

REEVE: Why not?

SPELL: How is it? What's false is our lying politicians.

REEVE (voice over): Several people told us they started coming here after they saw Spell on the news for keeping his church open and liked his message.

JEFF JACKSON, LIFE TABERNACLE CHURCH PARISHIONER: I was worried about not going to church and going back to alcohol and drugs.

The aim for this whole shutdown was the church because we're the radical right. We don't believe in gay marriage. We don't believe in abortion, all that.

REEVE (on camera): Are you going to get the vaccine?

JACKSON: No. It's detrimental to your health. It starts going into conspiracy.

REEVE: OK.

JACKSON: Theory type stuff.

REEVE: Uh-huh.

JACKSON: But, I do, I believe it's Bill Gates and them trying to kill us.

JACOB MCMORRIS, LIFE TABERNACLE CHURCH PARISHIONER: I feel like, and I know it works medically, but when you put something in you to help you stop from getting it, you know, that just -- that just doesn't work for me. I've never liked the idea of that.

PATRICIA SEAL, LIFE TABERNACLE CHURCH PARISHIONER: Donald Trump, I love him to death. I'd vote for him again. But when he was talking about getting the shot, I said, you can have it all you want, I don't want it.

REEVE: Are you going to get the vaccine?

KERRY WILLIAMS, LIFE TABERNACLE CHURCH PARISHIONER: Oh, I did it already.

REEVE: Oh, you did?

WILLIAMS: This is my first one. I've got to go back and do the second one. Yes, I got the vaccine.

REEVE: OK, cool.

WILLIAMS: That's right. SPELL: There is a political group today that wants to apologize for being Americans.

REEVE (voice over): Spell preaches conservative politics, but his congregation is unusually diverse compared to typical Christian churches, in part because he buses in people from all over town.

REEVE (on camera): One reason why I think it's interesting these two positions you have, the importance of desegregation and your opposition to the vaccine is that many of the people you minister to, which is admirable, are poor people of color.

SPELL: Yes.

REEVE: Well, those people tend to be most at risk for COVID. So why not encourage them to take the medicine that will protect them?

SPELL: Not only do I not encourage, I discourage. I don't know anybody in my church, black, brown, El Salvadoran, Honduran, Mexican who had the virus. And I know thousands and thousands and thousands.

REEVE: Your father said he had the virus. Your father and mother told me they had the virus.

SPELL: Yes, and that's all right. Maybe we had it and maybe we got it.

REEVE: He also said your grandfather got the vaccine.

SPELL: And I'm opposed to that. I did not promote that. I think it was foolish for taking the vaccine.

PERRY: Christian leaders on the right, people like Tony Spell have really bought into this idea that if I continue to sow this narrative where people feel victimized and fearful and angry, I can continue to build my audience.

[08:55:03]

I build my own credibility in this group of people that says, yes, everybody else is untrustworthy but you.

REEVE: I don't understand why you can't say like the church was essential, it's so important for so many people.

SPELL: The church -- the church is essential.

REEVE: But -- but what a miracle that we have these vaccines that would allow people to celebrate more safely.

SPELL: Never will say that. There is no backing up in that place (ph) for them.

REEVE: It just feels like you're taking a political position.

SPELL: It's not political at all. I'm not a politician, I'm a prophet.

Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Hallelujah.

REEVE: Elle Reeve, CNN, Baton Rouge.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: Elle Reeve just continues to astound me with her reporting, her willingness to go and tell these stories and the questions she asks and how she does it.

HARLOW: And respectfully asks them and hears them out.

BERMAN: Yes. This is a tragedy. I mean this is an American tragedy.

HARLOW: Yes.

BERMAN: I don't know what to say sometimes when I see this. But, thank you to her.

HARLOW: Thank you to Elle Reeve. That's what we can say.

All right.

BERMAN: CNN's coverage continues right after this.

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