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Don Lemon Tonight
George Floyd Leads Justice For Everyone; A 16-Year-Old Black Girl Killed By Police; DOJ To Investigate Minneapolis P.D.; Republican Party A Wall Of Opposition In Policing, In Voting. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired April 21, 2021 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST (on camera): Apologies for keeping you from the big show the big star, D. Lemon starts right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Ohio is tough, it is really, really, really tough. Yes.
CUOMO: You know, we were -- you are actually, to be honest let's let the audience into something. So, Don and I heard about the story last night on social media while we were doing coverage for you of the Chauvin verdict, last night.
And the initial reports didn't seem right, and it was so interesting for me as emotional and personal as the stories are, as someone of color especially Don, you with your background. You are cautious about it, you are saying huh, I want to see this one, I want to see this. Because there's a lot of emotion, understandably so you get a 16-year- old kid that's gone.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: It's a hard one, I do not know how to explain this to people in a way that doesn't make somebody very angry.
LEMON: Well, yes, and we are dealing with a lot of emotion right now. And I'm going to talk about that in a moment. And I think it's real, and you have to take that -- that part has to be taken into account. There's a lot of anguish, people are a very emotional right now but we've got to be fair about what happens when police arrived at scenes.
It is tragic that it's a 16-year-old girl, just it is tragic that it's a 13-year-old in Chicago. When police are chasing people, they don't know how old they are. And they don't run and say how old are you, I'm 13, you know? My mom let me but you don't know that. Or I'm 16. When they roll up on the scene, they see people tussling around, someone has a knife and their job is to protect and serve.
Every life on that scene, and if they see someone who is in the process of taking a life, what is that decision -- what decision that do they have to make? And I know that people say well, you know, you could do this you could do that. Tasers don't work the way guns work. CUOMO: Not at that distance.
LEMON: Not at that distance.
CUOMO: And not with that amount of time.
LEMON: Yes, right, tasers they don't always connect. So, you got to get to, you know, two prongs or what have and it's to connect, whatever. But I see it. If the woman in the pink was my sister, niece, wife, whatever, I -- you have to make a decision. Is one life on that scene more valuable than another?
And if someone is trying to take a life on that scene, do you protect the life of the person trying to take the life or do you protect the life of the person whose life is an imminent danger at that moment. That's why I'm not a police officer, but when I look at that I just it, as I said, it is tough because one is a 16-year-old. I don't know how old the other person is. But that other person's life was an imminent danger.
And as you know, from the hostile environment training that we get in this job, and because of our proximity to law enforcement. That at a certain distance, a stabbing, a knife can be much more lethal than a bullet. Especially if you get stab in the artery, in the temple, somewhere that you're going to bleed out.
CUOMO: Look, I feel for you.
LEMON: I don't know.
CUOMO: I feel -- you always feel for everybody.
LEMON: Everybody.
CUOMO: Sometimes I don't feel for certain parties as much as others. But I feel for that officer.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You could hear in his voice when he said the man on the side was saying, you know, you shot my baby, shot my baby. And he said, she had a knife, she went right at her. You know, this is something that he's going to have to live with also.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I did have one person make one good point that I hope doesn't come across offensive, because it certainly it's not the way I mean.
LEMON: No, but this is what people are talking about. This is -- this is what people, because again -- again, we weren't on the scene.
CUOMO: No.
LEMON: And even before you say that, Chris, even in the slowed down version, the slow-mo version. That slow version was a second. Second. CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: Imagine in real-time, how fast this is happening. They're like looking around like what is going on, someone call the police.
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: And you see someone with a knife and they're trying to stab the other person. And you're like, the taser doesn't work that fast. What do I do?
[22:05:02]
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: Right? And so, you've got to -- what you see is a life that is in jeopardy, in imminent jeopardy at the moment. I don't know. Yes, that man is right, you shot my baby. And he is in grief and in pain. I get that. And the other person could have been bleeding out on the sidewalk as well.
Either way in that position, I think that someone's life probably would have ended, it could have been the other woman in the pink or it could've been the 16-year-old who sadly ended up dying. Go on. Sorry.
CUOMO: No. It's just that -- no, listen, everything you're saying is instructive and brave. Because people don't want to hear you say that this was a justified shooting.
LEMON: And we don't know --
CUOMO: We don't know, but I don't know that this sets up like it did when we first saw George Floyd.
LEMON: No.
CUOMO: I mean, you know, the moment you saw that, you knew it was wrong, the whole country know it was wrong, white, black, you know, whatever, you knew. But here, somebody said something to me today that gave me a little bit of clarity. An older woman of color said to me, I was like man, this is really hard, you know, the piece of the tape where the guy says what he says, you know, you shot my baby.
She goes, shame on him. I said, well, why, he just lost a family member, I know if it's his kid or whatever was? And the response was, you -- he came running out of that house, why did he stop him? Where were the parents, you know, what were they doing? Why did he stop him? You know, why did the police have to come in control that situation? Why didn't he?
And, you know, I do see that perspective as well, I hadn't thought of that before. But the guy comes running out of house tries to kick one woman in the head, you know, he's an active part of the fight.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You know, the adults have to be adults too.
LEMON: Well, listen, in that, in that, you know, I've got to run because I've got to this and I'm going to talk to you. But in that part, it's like the -- it's like what people said before the 9 minutes and 29 seconds. He was resisting, he was doing that. We all know what it really came down to is what happened in that 9 minutes and 29 seconds.
CUOMO: Sure.
LEMON: So regardless of what he said, you know, where was he? I get it. Where was he before, why he didn't de-escalate it? I don't know. But when it comes -- what it will down to is whether the police shooting in that moment, in those seconds were justified. And police, it was him saving a third party's life on that scene justified.
CUOMO: He has a duty.
LEMON: And he has a duty to do that.
CUOMO: A duty to use force to protect his own life or the life of another.
LEMON: It's not going to come to this, what happened in the house. It's not going to come. It's going to come when he rolls up on that scene they're tussling, they're rolling around, and then he sees some of the knife. Boom. That is the part that is going to be whether it's justified or not, that part. Not everything --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: The analysis is only of the instant circumstances.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: I'm saying if you want to have this contractual conversation that people seem to want to have --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- about what else we can do. People fight with knives all the time. Do we really need cops?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: The answer is no. Learn how to control your kids.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You know, don't be so violent, and we won't need cops. But that's not our reality.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And cops get called to our lives all the time for the worst situations. LEMON: The reality is I got to go, because I got to get to the show.
CUOMO: Well, I love you, Don Lemon.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Thank you, sir. I love you, too.
CUOMO: And I love the conversations.
LEMON (on camera): Thank you for these conversations, again we need a lot of grace. People are in their feelings right now, as well they should be.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
And this country is at a crossroads tonight, which we've been talking about, it's at a crossroads. A white ex-police officer held accountable, held accountable for murdering George Floyd. Held accountable for the horror we all saw in that 9 minutes and 29-second video, the nightmare playing out on a loop in our heads.
We're talking about Derek Chauvin. He's going to be in prison for years for what he did. That's accountability. It hasn't come nearly often enough in this country. But the question is, what happens now? What will America do now? What do we do now?
George Floyd's brother, Philonise, writing in The Washington Post op- ed. He said this verdict is historic, but it shouldn't be historic to punish people who do bad things even if they wear a police uniform, especially if they wear a police uniform.
George Floyd's cousin saying this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERA BROWN, GEORGE FLOYD'S COUSIN: Accountability is exactly what we've gotten, but it won't -- it sends a message but we also need to have the laws changed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): The family got accountability, and we should celebrate that for them because it was far from a sure thing. But a man they loved, a brother, a cousin, a father, is dead. George Floyd didn't live to see justice because that officer took away his life.
His murder opened the eyes of a lot of white people to the violence that Black people face and fear on a daily basis. A lot of people watch that video of 9 minutes and 29 seconds of a Black man being murdered before our very eyes. And thought, of course, the officer will be found guilty.
[22:09:57]
Nothing could be more egregious, but I've got to tell you that Black people know there have been so many egregious cases before. We know the roll call of death, Daunte Wright whose funeral is tomorrow, who is shot to death by a police officer shouting taser, taser, just a few miles away from where George Floyd died.
Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, Philando Castile, Alton Sterling, Walter Scott, Michael Brown, Eric Garner, all the way back to Emmett Till and beyond. We should need an extraordinary set of circumstances to get justice. We can't expect Black people to be constantly dooming police violence every single time it happens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: There's so many people who seems like it took a unique and extraordinary convergence of factors. A brave young woman with a Smartphone camera, a crowd that was traumatized. Traumatized witnesses. A murder that lasts almost 10 minutes in broad daylight for ultimately the whole world to see.
For so many, it feels like it took all of that for the judicial system to deliver a just, just basic accountability.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Meanwhile, there is more death every day. Every case is different, and we don't know all the facts about this one. But we do know that a Black 16-year-old girl, Ma'Khia Bryant was shot to death by a police officer in Columbus, Ohio. Questions about the use of force here are very different.
Sensed in a series of clips from police body cam video, the girl is seen holding a knife during a tussle with another young woman. An officer arrived at the scene, and opened fire when a girl appeared to attempt to stab a second woman. The moments before the shooting captured on the officer's body cam, and I wish that this were the last time that I have to warn you it is graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Hey, what's going on? What's going on? Hey! Hey! Hey! Get down! Get down! Get down! Get down!
UNKNOWN: No, you are not going to shoot my baby. You shot my baby. Are you fucking serious?
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: I didn't do anything.
UNKNOWN: This man. This man is not supposed to be here.
UNKNOWN: Are you stupid? Are you serious?
UNKNOWN: True. Back up.
UNKNOWN: She had a knife. She just went after her!
UNKNOWN: Damn, are you stupid?
UNKNOWN: Hold on, I'll tell the --
UNKNOWN: Get back, I'm on my (Inaudible).
UNKNOWN: I'm telling you (Inaudible) down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): The city's public safety director saying this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NED PETTUS, PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR, COLUMBUS, OHIO: We don't yet have those answers, but these are some of the questions that are asked and addressed in disciplinary hearings that come before me. As Chief Woods has indicated, a fully independent investigation is being conducted by BCI, the results will be public.
So, I plead with the community, let us not rush to judgment. As I said last night, fast facts should not come at the cost of complete and accurate facts. The loved ones of Ma'Khia Bryant have my most sincere sympathies. And we as a community should wrap them in love, and we should allow the process to play out. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): People are anguished watching another video like this. And I get it, but even in our anguish we cannot abandon the responsibility we have to be fair. And even while our hearts are hurting, we have to judge each incident based on what we see in the facts we know.
When I look at this video, I see police responding to a dangerous incident where someone is armed with a knife. Police have walked up on a situation they need to figure out what's happening.
Other lives are in danger. If we're going to discuss this case, we need to be honest and use our common sense. We cannot have a double standard. We have to acknowledge that police have jobs to do. But with people dying every day, we've got to find a pathway to justice, a road map to take this country to where we need to be, to liberty and justice for all.
[22:14:59]
And we may be taking the first steps on that pathway right now. The Attorney General Merrick Garland announcing a sweeping DOJ investigation that goes beyond George Floyd's case, to investigate the Minneapolis Police Department itself where Derek Chauvin worked.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MERRICK GARLAND, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Today, I am announcing that the Justice Department has opened a civil investigation to determine whether the Minneapolis Police Department engages in a pattern or practice of unconstitutional or unlawful policing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): The investigation will dig into whether the Minneapolis Police Department uses excessive force including during protests or engages in discriminatory conduct. Minneapolis police leadership pledging to cooperate now. But it's up to our elected officials in Washington to rise to the task too.
It's been almost a year since George Floyd died. And Congress has yet to pass a single police reform bill. They get to strike a deal on the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act. Which would ban chokeholds, and no-knock warrants. Mandate deadly force by the use only as a last resort and ban racial and religious profiling by law enforcement.
That is happening as the president, Joe Biden is set to discuss police reform in his first address to a joint session of Congress in a week from tonight.
We still have a lot of work to do. Yes, let's celebrate for George Floyd's family. But let's also honor his memory by opening our eyes to systemic injustice in this country. The verdict in that Minneapolis courtroom was not the end. It's just the beginning.
I'm going to talk to George Floyd's cousin as the family tries to figure out where they go from here, and as they all wait for the next step in this case, and in that sentencing, how long should Derek Chauvin be behind bars?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHILONISE FLOYD, GEORGE FLOYD'S BROTHER: Totally the max. You know, I think the max because he did the maximum killing to my brother when he put his knee on his neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. I love my brother. I'll never get him back. And my brother is doing his time in the ground now. So, he need to do his time in the cell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): Tonight, George Floyd's brother, Philonise, telling CNN that he feels great because so many people are united behind Derek Chauvin's murder conviction which he calls historic, and saying he keeps hearing the word guilty over and over. Philonise also wants Chauvin to be given the maximum sentence because his brother is never coming back.
Joining me now is Shareeduh Tate, George Floyd's cousin who is the president of the George Floyd Foundation. Shareeduh, I'm so glad you are here. Thank you so much. You're doing OK?
SHAREEDUH TATE, GEORGE FLOYD'S COUSIN: I'm doing wonderful. Thank you. LEMON: Yes. You know, it's been so emotional for so many since this
verdict. Really, it's been an emotional year with all that is going on. How are you -- now that you have had this, had time to have this sink in, did you get any sleep last night? How's the family doing? What's going through your head?
TATE: Well, I didn't get any sleep last night, surprisingly. I think it was just the, you know, the adrenaline, the rush from, you know, finally getting the convictions, and we -- so, I tried several times to go to sleep and I just couldn't go to sleep. And by the time I finally did go to sleep, it was time to get up. But I'll take that any day over what we've had to contend with for almost the last year.
LEMON: Justice or accountability. How do you see this conviction?
TATE: Accountability is huge, I think it's a measure of justice at the same time. I think there is still more that needs to be done for sure, but I think having him finally, whether he wants to acknowledge that he's accountable, the jurors deliberated and they came to the decision that he is guilty of all the charges. So, he's being held accountable whether he wants to or not.
LEMON: Are you hopeful that this can be a turning point for the fight for racial justice and police reform? Because everyone, everyone is hoping that this is, you know, this is the moment that's going to propel the country forward into some sort of reform.
TATE: I am hopeful. I think -- I think all of us are hopeful that, you know, the momentum will continue to move in the right direction. You think, obviously, getting that conviction and having, you know, the policing acts be at the forefront right now, and having so many people in support of trying to make sure that we have a situation where all the officers who have sworn to take an oath to protect and serve are held accountable to do just that. And I feel like we have the best environment or climate for that to take place right now.
LEMON: The grace and the strength of your -- I've said this to Philonise last night, the grace and strength that your family has shown over the last year is truly commendable. Where does your family go from here? What's the next step?
TATE: I think we continue, all of us continue to work as hard as we can to make sure that we do everything to see that the true change we want to see takes place. Each of us committed way back in May right after all of this occurred, one of the things that we said we would do is that we would work towards making sure change takes place. And so, that is, I think we have demonstrated our commitment to do so, and I believe we will continue to do that.
LEMON: Shareeduh, thank you very much. I appreciate it. You be well.
TATE: Thank you so much.
LEMON: Thank you. Police in Columbus, Ohio releasing more body cam video that shows a police officer fatally shooting a Black teen who appears to be holding a knife while charging at two others. We're going to break down what happened, that's next.
[22:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): Columbus, Ohio, officials releasing additional body cam video today of a police officer fatally shooting a Black teen who they say charged two others with a knife.
CNN's Athena Jones has the latest, and I have to warn you, the video is very disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Hey! Hey!
ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): New video released in the case of Ma'Khia Bryant, a 16-year-old Black girl in Columbus, Ohio shot by police after they say she attempted to stab two people with a knife.
UNKNOWN: We got -- it's these grown girls over here trying to fight us. trying to stab us. One of them is trying to put her hands on our grandma. Get in here now!
JONES: Upon receiving that chaotic 911 call, officers were dispatched to the scene. Police say they still don't know the identity of the caller, police body cam footage shows Officer Nicholas Reardon approaching a group of individuals in the driveway outside a home.
UNKNOWN: What's going on? Hey, what's going on, hey! Hey! Hey! Get down! Get down! Get down! Get down!
JONES: The video shows Bryant appearing to push one person to the ground and then lunging at another person in pink with what appears to be a knife in her hand. Officer Reardon then fires four shots, killing Bryant. Franklin County Children Services says Bryant was a foster child in the county's care.
UNKNOWN: She came after me.
[22:35:02]
JONES: Tonight, newly released body cam videos from two additional officers show the moments after the shooting as well. Officers can be seen performing lifesaving measures on Bryant, and sealing off the scene. Officer Reardon, whom police identified as firing the fatal shot, has been a member of the Columbus Police Department since 2019. Police say he's on paid administrative leave while an independent investigation takes place.
Columbus Mayor Andrew Ginther says the killing was a failure of the community.
MAYOR ANDREW GINTHER (D), COLUMBUS, OHIO: The fact that we had a 16 - year-old girl armed and involved with physical violence with other folks in that community, that's something for us to look in the mirror and to say, what are we doing, or not doing.
PETER CAHILL, JUDGE, HENNEPIN COUNTY FOURTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT: Find the defendant guilty.
JONES: The shooting happened about 30 minutes before the guilty verdict was delivered for the murder of George Floyd, at a time when police use of force around the nation, and in Columbus specifically, is under renewed scrutiny.
GINTHER: We'll be sharing more in the hours, days, weeks ahead. That doesn't compromise the investigation, because it's critically important for us for the public to have the information that we have so we can be transparent as possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONES (on camera): Now CNN has reached out to Officer Reardon and the police union but has not heard back. And one more thing that's important to note here, both the mayor and the interim police chief are stressing transparency. The police department work swiftly to release the initial police body camera footage last night.
Chief Michael Woods saying his goal is to share as much information with the public as possible, as quickly as possible. This was especially important last night, because you had videos shot by bystanders that are already circulating on social media sparking outrage. Don?
LEMON: Athena Jones, reporting. Athena, thank you so much. Now I want to bring in the former captain of the Missouri State Highway Patrol, Ron Johnson who was tasked with restoring peace in Ferguson after Michael Brown's death.
Good evening. Here we are discussing another shooting. Captain, the mayor of Columbus saying that Officer Reardon acted to protect another young girl. What did Reardon have to consider in that moment?
RON JOHNSON, RETIRED CAPTAIN, MISSOURI STATE HIGHWAY PATROL: Well, he had to consider if the other young girl was going to inflict serious injury or death on another. And so, in that moment he had to decide, to take action based on that. That's a part of the training, that's what the public expects officers to do, to protect and serve.
LEMON: So, do you, in that moment, do you think that he was doing what his training showed him? I know that we don't have all the evidence, but when you look at that video what do you -- what do you make of it?
JOHNSON: On the surface it appears so. But I think, you know, I've said always -- that we need to, that the investigation go through and look at everything, and every vantage point. But on the surface, it would seem like he took the action that he felt that he needed to take in that moment, because as you can see it's a matter of seconds or less.
You know, when you play that video in real-time, and so he has to analyze that in a sharp moment of time. LEMON: Yes, in real-time, and a chaotic moment. Listen, the city
acting very quickly to release this body -- the body cam videos, but you say they don't tell the full story. Can you explain that, please, captain?
JOHNSON: Well I think we just saw that in the George Floyd trial, there were many videos and you had to analyze at all from different angles, you had to see what happened before that when the fight started, when the officer got out of the car. So, I think we need to see every vantage point, what we know there's probably video was taken before maybe by someone's phone camera.
So, let's look at it all, you know. But right now, there's such distrust with African-Americans and police. That they want a full investigation of everything, and even when something appears to be justified it is going to be questioned until we bridge this gap and there's a sense of accountability within a profession.
LEMON: OK. So, then, let's talk about, because when you -- because you keep saying it appears to be. My question is, people were saying let's go through one. So why did he, why not use the taser?
JOHNSON: Well, tasers don't have the same impact. Tasers both prongs have to hit in the distance that you're from. You're from the person, and will that actually stop that act from going? You know, when someone is wielding a knife and it's a chance for serious injury or death. And so, the officer has to take all of that in account in a matter of moments.
LEMON: Why not shoot to injure?
JOHNSON: You know, we hear that about shoot to injure. You know, but officers are trained to shoot at a certain point in the target, and so you have to make sure if you're going to stop that transaction. And so, let's say that you shoot someone in the leg, is that going to stop them from rolling the knife?
[22:35:01]
And so, you've got to stop that, and I think if you shoot someone in the leg and they continue on and they stab the person then we're going to be here with another conversation. But I do think that's something we can look at in some situations practices of how we use weapons.
And so, that may be something we need to look at in our training. And I've discussed that before. And a lot of people throughout our country just ask that same question.
LEMON: Why -- why four times, and not just one? Four shots, and not just one?
JOHNSON: And right now, I think we need to let the investigation pan out because I can't answer that question.
LEMON: Yes. Captain Ron Johnson, I appreciate your time and your expertise. Thank you so much. JOHNSON: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you. LeBron James and Dwyane Wade saying justice for George Floyd is a win for accountability. Yesterday's verdict really is a big step in that process. So how do athletes use their platform to keep the momentum going. That is a question for Jalen Rose. Jalen Rose is next.
[22:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): Look, this is where the conversation is going. I couldn't take my eyes off the sport folks today as they were discussing this intersection between politics, race, policing, and sports. Major sports teams, leagues speaking out following the guilty verdict against the ex-officer who killed George Floyd.
LeBron James tweeting out the word accountability, all caps. That was shortly after the news. But even with the guilty verdict the fight for police reform is far from over. So how would athletes keep moving forward on racial justice.
So, joining me now to discuss is former Indiana Pacers star, ESPN analyst, Jalen Rose. I had you guys on. I could barely get my work out in watching all of you guys today. Seriously, it was fascinating to see your take on it versus the CNN take on it, even the business channels take on it how it affects the markets, all of that, right? Because it's all -- all an intersection.
Jalen, I'm so glad to have you on. Thank you. First of all, what was it like for you waiting on this verdict and then hearing guilty, guilty, guilty.
JALEN ROSE, SPORTS ANALYST, ESPN: Thank you for having me on, Don, I'm a huge fan of the show. It's a little unnerving that I can watch a video of my own two ass of 9 minutes and 29 seconds of an officer with his knee to the neck of George Floyd while he's handcuffed. And I'm looking at the court proceedings, Don, and there are some people that get up there and say maybe because he could have died because of the exhaust?
And then there are people that talk about his health concerns. And so, as a Black person in America I felt exactly how you felt. As a matter of fact, exactly how we felt on January 6th, when you looked at the capitol being stormed, and we said, what will happen if that was a different race doing that?
And so, therefore, I didn't necessarily believe that there are going to be three guilty pleas. You know why? Because they're barely guilty pleas when these situations take place.
LEMON: You must have been watching --
(CROSSTALK)
ROSE: And I want to highlight --
LEMON: -- me yesterday because I said the same thing. Sorry. Go on.
ROSE: No question, but I want to highlight one important thing that seems to get lost, and I would love for any law enforcement to come on and answer this for me as well. In the George Floyd case, they falsified the police report.
LEMON: Right.
ROSE: In the Breonna Taylor case, they falsified the police report. What happens in those situations? What kind of discipline happens from within on those? That should be an automatic punishment, discipline, firing, lose your pension, something very strong.
But since those type of measures aren't in place, we kind of get to these scenarios that we're in now, but I'm really happy for George Floyd, rest in peace, and his family that they got a sense of justice for their loved one. But as you know, they are going to be more. What's next?
LEMON: So, it sounds like, I think -- I think in this moment, I mean, you're talking about these things, well, let's put it this way. Everything that you just mentioned sort of exposes when you look at the initial reporting from the police department in Minneapolis. Right?
They were exposed because we get to see the real report, then we know what happened when it played out in court. So, are you -- are you optimistic? Before we go on to talk about sports, are you optimistic?
ROSE: I'm not optimistic until I see some actual reform happening.
LEMON: Are you hopeful?
ROSE: The George -- I am hopeful, but here is an analogy I've leave for you since you are talking about sports. Here's how I feel. When the justice for George Floyd happens, it's all equated to a sporting event and football when you talk about field position. So, the game starts, Don, we look up the score, it's 400 years of slavery to zero. We just got a scorer with George Floyd. But we still need to continue to play the game to get field position.
We know we're not going to win the game. It's not happening in our lifetime. However, owed society, our community, and each other to continue to fight for this field position. And that's what we're doing but a couple of things that really changed the dynamics.
Number one, Smartphones. Smartphones have unlocked the violence that had been perpetrated by police for so very long against people of color. The other thing is protest. There is a reason why even if you look over my shoulder, that's one of the most iconic pictures in sports. It had nothing to do with the score of the game, because people know the power of an athlete in the entertainment, in the community, that's why they're told to shut up and dribble.
[22:45:03]
LEMON: Are you talk about Ali?
ROSE: Absolutely, that's the Ali summit.
LEMON: Yes. So, let me ask you then before we go, so you think about Ali, when you think about shut up and dribble, right? When you think about Colin Kaepernick. All of these efforts, how critical are they to the movement?
ROSE: They are extremely important, that's why people are telling you to stick to sports, because they know that, Don. They know the power and the influence and the voice of athletes the entertainers in their community. How important it is for us to invest our time, our energy, our money back into our community. When we do that, we see change.
Today, I was just doing a recording for more than a vote about voter suppression laws, voter suppression laws. Two hundred fifty laws in Atlanta have been change since the election. It's happening in Michigan, it's happening in Texas, it continues to happen.
So, Smartphones, protests and the ability to vote. Those three things have been game changers, let's continue to do each.
LEMON: Jalen, let me tell you, I mean it. You're welcome back here anytime. I love watching you. I love what --
ROSE: Thank you.
LEMON: -- you're contributing, what you're doing and your perspective. Please come back. Thank you for your time, OK?
ROSE: My pleasure. I appreciate the love.
LEMON: All right. And I want those glasses. Thank you, Jalen Rose.
ROSE: I got you back.
LEMON: Jalen Rose, thank you very much.
Americans demanding justice and equal treatment, they don't just want action in the courtroom, they want action in Congress. But is any legislation on police reform possible when Republicans have become the party of obstruction?
[22:50:00]
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LEMON (on camera): So, Republicans who don't think that there's anything wrong with the current state of the party might want to listen to an elder statesman, and that is the former President George W. Bush who calls the GOP isolationist, protectionist and nativist. Is it time for some big changes in the party's positions?
Well, let's discuss now, senior commentator John Kasich is here, the former Republican governor of Ohio. I think I know what he's going to say about this, but John, good evening to you. I'm so glad that you're here.
You know, we just witnessed this historic verdict, a former police officer convicted of murdering a Black man. Quite honestly, it's rare if you look back in history. Now people are demanding systemic change, but Republicans have been, they've been a wall of opposition in policing, in voting -- voting rights legislation, gun legislation. Are they on the wrong side of history?
JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, they're on the wrong side of those issues, Don. You know, we talked about this briefly and I will be brief here. That when we had our terrible situations here, and we have one now we're having to deal with in Columbus. However, we created a task force on community and police to take a look at the use of force, the use of deadly force, people have to be trained to it.
You have to collect data to see if there is inherent bias going on. You've got to recruit people to reflect the neighborhood, all those things are critical and that doesn't mean you taken one side or another. I think you've been trying to be fair on this as you point out, police have to do their job.
They want to go home at night. The community wants them there but the community doesn't want abuse. A lot of communities across this country are just hoping this will go away. But without training, Don, without adequate training to what the standards are, you're always going to have problems.
It doesn't mean it's good to take care of all your problems, but that is what you have to do. That's a question of humanity, it's a question of justice, it's a question of fairness for everyone involved, the community, the police officer, get them around a table, hash it out.
The same thing with guns. We've got too many problems with guns. Nobody wants to take people second amendment away but it's time to get on top that issue.
LEMON: Yes.
KASICH: And the reason why I've been more positive about Bush here, is because he represents sort of the more hopeful wing of the party on immigration and things like that. We've got to open ourselves up.
LEMON: Yes. Listen, I want to -- how long is this? What, 30 seconds, because I want to spend some time with you. Listen, you heard what George Bush had to say, right? That se said that he was disappointed in the party and that they are becoming more nativist.
KASICH: Yes.
LEMON: John Boehner is saying the same thing.
KASICH: Right. LEMON: Do you think that, what do you think? You know, you've got the two former GOP leaders who don't really recognize their own current party right now. Are they becoming, is this party becoming more isolationist? More nativist?
KASICH: Tug of war going on, Don, I think. I think that the Bush and Boehner are emerging now. I wish they had been out sooner.
LEMON: Right.
KASICH: I wish they had been speaking out earlier. But the fact is they are starting to emerge and they are starting to talk, and I welcome it. I think it's critically important, again, they are hopeful. They are not the e or branch of the party where everything is bad, and dark, and sinister and people are out to get people. This is the more hopeful wing of the party of which I'm a member.
LEMON: OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, so this is -- here we go. So, do you think that is passe? I mean, listen, I know that's what you're like, I know that's what the former President George Bush is like, and that is what John Boehner is saying that he's like? Many people are calling John Boehner now his book on what he is saying revisionist history because he ushered in the tea party which then ushered in the whole Trump era.
So. But, do you think that you guys are that, what you want for the party that that's over, those days are gone and this is just the new Republican Party what we have right now?
KASICH: No, I don't -- I don't think so. Don, it may -- it may mean there is going to have to be another crushing on the part of Republicans for them to wake up and realize that those negative approaches simply don't work.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But John, people like you don't have the numbers. I don't mean -- I want to be insulting. But the number of people who think like you guys, you don't have the numbers.
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KASICH: Don, it can change.
LEMON: OK, go on.
[22:54:58]
KASICH: But it can change, Don. And the other thing is I don't buy this business that if you don't kowtow to Donald Trump, you can't get elected. I believe you can if you have ideas, if you are a great presenter. Look, I won more elections that people never thought I could win. Why? Ideas. Energy. Saying what it is I was going to do, and that's how you -- that's what leaders do. That's how you get elected to these things.
You can't give up on the fact that the wing of the party now is tied to Trump. Yes, there is a lot of them, but they are state party officials, but local officials -- people are tired of this thing with Trump. They are just of it. That doesn't mean that there aren't people in the party who still there doesn't mean that there is not a significant number.
But I mean, you're asking me honestly, I'm giving you the answer. I haven't given up on them. If I thought the Republican Party was going to continue to be negative and dark, I'll leave.
LEMON: Yes.
KASICH: I don't want to be associated with something that's got to be negative and tell -- and, you know, get people more depressed and play the blame game and scapegoats for a party --
LEMON: I feel you.
KASICH: -- that doesn't recognize the fact we have to deal with things like guns and race and issues like that. I wouldn't stay in the party.
LEMON: Yes.
KASICH: Of course, I think we can win it.
LEMON: Well, I appreciate your candor that you are so candid. And I didn't cut you off. I let you speak, I let you speak your piece. Thank you, John Kasich. I'll see you back here soon.
(CROSSTALK)
KASICH: I'm enjoying this, Don. Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you, sir. I appreciate it.
KASICH: All right. All right.
LEMON: So, one day after the guilty verdict in the Derek Chauvin trial in Minneapolis people in nearby Brooklyn Center prepare to put Daunte Wright to rest, truly mixed emotions tonight.
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